19 December 2008

Light Rail marches on...

| johnboy
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The light rail nerds are celebrating the ACT Government including their pet project in the wishlist for infrastructure funding.

    ““In these troubled economic times, there is no doubt that a significant project to implement Light Rail will help keep the ACT economy buoyant. It will provide ongoing economic stimuli through related development, urban design and investment, as well as addressing the longer term public transport infrastructure and environmental issues”, stated Mr. Reynolds.

    The project is listed in the Infrastructure Australia report as a single line item at $2.95billion, however very little is actually known about what was contained in the bid from the ACT Government to Infrastructure Australia as the final document has not been released to the public. “

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JR and ACTLight Rail have a very tough time convincing abyone that light rail is an option for Canberra when not so long ago they were denying that it would cost $1 billion to build a system for Canberra, when now the figure is $3 billion and the ACT Government is not talking/releasing documents to them anymore. Is this the reason why one of the peak construction groups ditched light rail only a couple of weeks ago and said instead build rapid transit because they saw the writting on the wall?

Also Mr Eddigton, the chair of Infrastructure Australia, was never a fan of light rail from his previous UK reports that ACT Light Rail called a fantasy. And then this from “Australia’s Infrastructure Priorities Securing our Prosperity”

The construction of new or expanding existing light rail
systems is only of benefit in high density population areas
such as Sydney, the Gold Coast or Adelaide’s CBD.

Also last week, the Sydney papers where stating that the NSW Government where looking at bus ways as a cheaper and more efficient system than light rail for there abandoned heavy rail expansion plans.

Time for ACT light Rail to pack their ball and go home?

ChrisinTurner11:48 am 26 Dec 08

PM said :

Oh – and many European cities of our size have light rail and don’t think twice about it.

Berlin has about the same area as Canberra but has ten times our population! Light Rail would probably drive Canberra broke.

The $3B comes from the ACT submission to the Infrastructure Australia wish list. See http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/canberra-projects-on-short-list-for-200b-spree/1391664.aspx

Light Rail would be the shiz. Unfortunately it will never happen.

Light rail attracts a certain type of person.. busses are great for old people that like going slow.. but for those that like to live 5 minutes from work and want to live somewhere nice out of the city light rail is going to seem attractive. Your going to see heaps of more dense appartments near the stops for the rail. or not from from them.. light rail is a chance to make part of canberra more dense and more happening.. a faster lifestyle then the rest of canberra thats quite a few beats slower than parts of the other major cities.

To most people in canberra light rail is more a statement than anything else.

PM said :

I meant to say “drinking water”.

And it’s also a good thing that we can use this “drinking water” for most other watery purposes because dams are the cheapest way of providing it, if attached to a reticulated water system. (I know, not the topic)

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

Why don’t we take the $3B and use it to widen all major roads in and around Canberra, and to build large subterranean parking lots. It would go a long, long way to reducing traffic issues. Hell, you could have dedicated bus lanes everywhere!

[SARCASM ON]
But why widen roads for a town of only 350k people? What a waste of money! The roads are empty! They should be narrowed instead of widened! And come to think about it, why have all these suburban centres spread out so far apart? It’s a country town not a city.. they should spend the money moving them all closer together!!
[SARCASM OFF]

Yeah.. it’s flawed logic all right. The cost/benefits of ANY transport project rarely add up in “today’s” dollars. There are reasons to build railways (both heavy and light) which go beyond the immediately quantifiable dollar figures.

Check it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzENECOgaF4

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymXMS97wQZQ&feature=related

I am really excited about it. If it is done sensibly it could really revolutionise public transport in this city, and that really does need to happen.

Jonathon Reynolds2:15 pm 21 Dec 08

Gungahlin Al said :

Where the hell did this $3B figure come from??

PM said :

And I don’t know where $3b came from.

No one seems to know where the $2.95 billion figure came from.

In a question without notice asked in the Assembly on 9 December 2008 – Jon Stanhope admitted that the (draft) submission prepared by PWC was sent through to Infrastructure Australia without any scrutiny or assessment by the Government (or Opposition as the submission occured during the caretaker period).

See from 5:30 onwards: http://actlightrail.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=83&Itemid=1

Having called the Chief Ministers office on Friday and spoken with one of his advisors Jasmina Jonceski, she advised me that the Government/Chief Minister still has not seen the submission that had been made and the government will not release a copy of the draft document that was actually submitted to Infrastructure Australia.

Oh – and many European cities of our size have light rail and don’t think twice about it.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

Perhaps building rail between town centres and focusing buses on local areas would work better. The buses could also be smaller.

I believe that’s the plan being requested by the Light Rail Assoc. Feeder buses would be smaller and able service the suburbs more efficiently. Then you’d have the intertown routes managed by light rail.

And I don’t know where $3b came from. That might be the cost if it included underground stations etc.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy12:47 pm 21 Dec 08

Perhaps building rail between town centres and focusing buses on local areas would work better. The buses could also be smaller.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy12:45 pm 21 Dec 08

If you think about cities where public transport works well, they all seem to have trams and/or trains.

Think about cities where it works REALLY well. The rail often isn’t at grounf level, but above or below instead. Also, these cities have populations typically 10 times of Canberra or more, in a similar or smaller area. In such cities, rail works because it’s the only viable public transport. The roads couldn’t physically carry the traffic!

The ‘if you build it they will come’ thing really doesn’t work for me. I’d much rather see an approach where we said “we have $3B to sort out transport – how should we do this”? Simply tipping $$ into buses also isn’t the answer – the answer includes roads, cars, motorbikes, scooters, pedal power, and probably a range of other things as well.

But blindly building a rail system without very serious consideration of the alternatives is a great way to waste our money and resources and damage our environment.

I meant to say “drinking water”.

cranky said :

I have no idea how we will be commuting in 50 years time, but the cost of light rail even for this period would need justifying. I am certain it will be ‘old’ technology by then.

Sure – I’m a fan of the Jetsons too – or maybe that Futurama tube thing 🙂

It isn’t a big infrastructure cost over a period of time given the benefits. All infrastructure is expensive, but you get on with it for a reason. I mean, how many people today think we shouldn’t have water running from dams to people’s homes?

Technology marches forward. I’m sure the construction of the railway line from Qbn to Bombala via Cooma was once seen as a facility which would last forever.

I have no idea how we will be commuting in 50 years time, but the cost of light rail even for this period would need justifying. I am certain it will be ‘old’ technology by then.

Well why does nay city have rail/trams etc then?

If you think about cities where public transport works well, they all seem to have trams and/or trains.

I just think pouring more money into the busses is never going to achieve an optimal result. Especially as Canberra grows bigger and bigger.

I do think they should put more money into the busses though – there are just not enough of them to meet demand at the mo, and overfull busses are really unplesant.

I’d totally support the free busses too – or cheaper. Over 6.00 for two trips is a bit steep.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy11:34 am 21 Dec 08

This would be a one-off infrastructure spend that would benefit Canberra for 100s of years.

If you expect rail infrastructure to last 100s of years then it certainly isn’t a one off cost. Of course there’s the cost of building it, but then the constant maintenance and replacement of broken bits.

Look at the other transport options that could be achieved for the same money.

People say ’10K per resident’
as if that is a constant cost.

This would be a one-off infrastructure spend that would benefit Canberra for 100s of years.

How does any railway get built – you spend a lot to set it up, then reap the rewards.

Canberra certainly has the space to build a railway. Straight down Northbourne ave and along the central reservation on Adelaide Avenue then possibly down Athlon Drive but you’ve got the problem of lake Burley Griffin. Would the railway be tacked onto the side of Commonwealth Avenue Bridge? If so it’s going to cost a fortune.

Who’s going to pay for all this? Whether it’s $10k per resident or more or less, I don’t think the government would get away with trying to get that money.

Gungahlin Al11:58 pm 20 Dec 08

Where the hell did this $3B figure come from?? Seems every time the CM talks about light rail the projected cost adds another billion.

Stoopid. I sniff dirty pool here.

We just need a couple of key route to show it will work, and it can then be rolled out in stages. With large chunks paid for out of improved land sales along those routes. And a whole bunch of other thoughts as per previous posts I couldn’t be bothered rehashing…

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy10:35 pm 20 Dec 08

At $3B for the benefit of 300k people, that’s $10k for every person. Every family could buy a new car! (There’s more to it of course).

Why don’t we take the $3B and use it to widen all major roads in and around Canberra, and to build large subterranean parking lots. It would go a long, long way to reducing traffic issues. Hell, you could have dedicated bus lanes everywhere!

NickD,

1. Many buses are crowded.

2. That’s despite many people choosing to drive because they don’t like crowded buses.

3. We need to think ahead – this thing won’t be built overnight and our population is growing. The demands on our infrastructure are naturally increasing.

4. Light rail doesn’t often get stuck in traffic jams, which are slowly becoming more regular in certain areas therefore, assuming it’s a good design, in my view light rail will be faster than buses between the town centres.

5. For both environmental and productivity reasons the Conservation Council and the Business Council (or whatever its called) are in favour of it, along with the Planning Association.

Light rail shouldn’t just be laid along the current road network; there needs to be a coordinated approach (ie transport, planning, etc) to make sure our city’s future is able to withstand the approaching pressures on cost of living, maintenance of infrastructure, physical space, environment and quality of life. I think at the last election this was more or less agreed between ALP, Liberals and Greens, although they had different approaches.

ChrisinTurner4:23 pm 20 Dec 08

We should take the $3 billion, invest it at 4% and use the $120 million a year to make the existing bus system fare-free. In fact, it should only take about $20 million a year to do this. See http://www.chrisemery.net/images/Documents/the%20fare-free%20alternative.pdf

Actually many are overcrowded.

PM said :

Soft infrastructure like buses – which don’t hold as many people as light rail – won’t cut it.

Given that the buses are empty outside of the peak hours and aren’t normally over-crowded during the peak hours I don’t think that light rail makes any kind of sense, especially as it would probably be impossible for a light rail train to travel between the town centres any faster than a bus can.

climbingbeetle said :

ACT Light Rail have never answered the question, “Does Canberra need a fixed rail service.” …

Instead, a lobby group of boys who like playing with toys has somehow pulled the wool over the eyes of the government to get this proposal up.

Um… yes they have considered whether Canberra needs a fixed rail service and the answer is, in their opinion, yes.

Light rail is very important in planning for Canberra’s future growth. Soft infrastructure like buses – which don’t hold as many people as light rail – won’t cut it.

Unlike light rail and fast train, I thought that the Bigger Cotter dam and the Murrumbidgee to Googong pipeline were certainties. They certainly featured very prominently in the ‘election adds’ Actew was running in support of Stanhope before the last election. I believe we have already started to pay for these projects and that was one reason for our increased water bills. Now they’re in an infrastructure WISH list!!

I think it is a great idea.
Running centre to centre (Civic, woden, tuggers, belco, gunners).

I think it would get heaps of use – far more than the awful busses currently get.
And Canberra is aiming to get bigger, so it would be part of planning ahead.

Canberra is so spread out, busses just can’t get from A to B fast enough.

And in the meantime they should bring back the 333 and just run it every 2 minutes all day long.

There must be cheaper alternatives, for instance a tram running on wheels with a guide track or electronic tracking, battery operated or hybrid, operating just like those running in Melbourne with their ugly overhead wires. Similar road rules.

Who would ever spend nearly $3b for a toy train to benefit a population of 300k people, of who at best something like 60k might ever be regular users? Its just not going to happen. I’d love to see the business case put forward in the submission. Just the cost of capital (or the opportunity cost if its funded free of charge by govt) comes to something like $6-7 per trip.

I’d imagine the committee evaluating these infrastructure proposals won’t be wasting too much time with this one. Its never going to get up vs things like ports, rail servicing those ports, etc. (Never mind the lack of political imperative to spend money in Canberra – not like we’re going to vote Liberal is it?)

climbingbeetle8:19 am 20 Dec 08

ACT Light Rail have never answered the question, “Does Canberra need a fixed rail service.” Instead, they have jumped the gun and gone straight for the technology.

It would be good to see a study of fixed rail requirements, looking at grade-separated rail and non-grade separate rail, and monorail. If a decision has been made that we need fixed rail, get the vendors of these technologies, such as Hitachi, Bombardier, Mitsubishi, Siemens, etc., come and tell us what they reckon would be the most efficient and effective mode of fixed rail locomotion in Canberra.

Instead, a lobby group of boys who like playing with toys has somehow pulled the wool over the eyes of the government to get this proposal up.

They’ll be snowboarding down the main street of Darwin before a light rail system is ever built in Canberra.

won’t happen with the price tag they put on it. Very clever politics that. toot toot!

I personally believe Canberra would benefit with a light rail system in place. It would then also benefit with some real thought into getting Canberran’s to actually use it beyond the 6 month novelty factor.

And no, putting on a few ad’s on TV explaining the pluses of buses (whoops I mean light rail), doesn’t cut it, neither does closing down all the car parks in the city and turning them into office space.

Canberra could have a very good public transport system. We already have 4 major hubs. The majority of people traveling on public transport will usually do so to get to one of the 4 hubs.

Problem is that thanks to the scenic route that just about every bus takes unless you only need to go 5 minutes up the road, using the buses (and any potential light rail) is a long process which you have to pray that you don’t have to transfer between buses at any stage, otherwise your probably going to have to wait somewhere, potentially for quite some time. (worst wait I’ve had to do was 55 minutes).

iamspam said :

Not only that, but the dream of the Supertrain is also kept alive…

Well that one would do a lot more good than light rail around Canberra, and frankly the only way the country could afford it is if the government funded most of it through a spending spree such as this one.

Not only that, but the dream of the Supertrain is also kept alive…

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