17 December 2011

Light rail to rumble down Northbourne? Toot! Toot!

| johnboy
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northbourne avenue with train station, artist's impression

Simon Corbell has announced his thinking so far on a transitway between Gungahlin and Civic.

It appears very likely the median strip of Northbourne is going to get used for something. You might take as a clue that his office have sent out a lovely artists drawing of light rail arriving in Civic:

“The Government is considering a range of options that aim to take more people out of their cars and use public transport as well as cycle and walk down Northbourne Avenue and Flemington Road,” Mr Corbell said.

“Consideration is being given for people-friendly options that ensure the transit options fit in with land use, the public realm and other transport networks for this key transit corridor.

“This includes exploring how pedestrian and cyclist movement can be combined with transit and traffic options, and looking at making active street frontages a priority for Northbourne Avenue, reducing congestion and significantly improving travel times for public transport and car users.”

The corridor includes major residential, employment and retail areas and has high potential to see increased urban intensity to support – and be supported by – a higher quality transit service, either light rail or bus transit.

The Government is considering the possibility of light rail and bus transit accessing the Gungahlin Town Centre via Hibberson Street or a loop arrangement to Anthony Rolfe Avenue, closing Hibberson Street to car traffic.

The light rail or bus rapid transit stops would follow the same stopping pattern as the current Red Rapid, with additional stops to be considered for areas where there is high patronage potential.

The Flemington Road segment would likely have more widely spaced stops and higher travel speeds, while the higher density Northbourne Avenue section (particularly south of Antill St) could potentially have closer stop spacing, akin to a streetcar-like stopping pattern.

“The draft options show that another lane for mass transit could be added on the Northbourne Avenue segment of the corridor. Narrowing the median would allow segregated bi-directional cycle paths and separate shared paths to encourage more people to use this important boulevard,” Mr Corbell said.

“The Flemington Road alignment could use the space already reserved in the median, with single direction segregated pedestrian and cycle paths. Further work will continue to investigate key station locations at Dickson and Gungahlin Town Centres, building on the pedestrian focus of the master plans for both centres.”

They’ll be finalising options and putting them out for comment in the new year.

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shadow boxer10:01 am 22 Dec 11

Gungahlin Al said :

shadow boxer said :

That would surprise me Al, you would need to source it somehow.

I don’t have anything against buses, I do have an issue when people think car drivers should have lanes removed or exorbitant parking to force them to catch them. Particulalry when it is based on an ideology or a fallacy like more roads mean more people drive cars.

Surprised me too. But it came straight from ACTION/Roads reps at one of our meetings over a year ago. But makes perfect sense when you stop and think about it. And the bus patronage has shot up since then.

YOU might be surprised to know that I have been recommending AGAINST removal of Northbourne traffic lanes – in the consultation sessions and directly to the minister just two days ago, plus in public forums. I believe there is a very high risk of losing support and therefore it becoming a political football. So apart from venting here, what have you done to communicate your concerns to the decisionmakers?

But, it has been proven through research that more road capacity does indeed increase usage.

What you need to get your head around is that wanting better PT is not an attack on those like you who have to combine multiple destinations and legs to daily trips thereby making PT impractical. As a person destined to always be driving, I can’t understand why you wouldn’t be wholeheartedly supporting moves for improved PT, because it can only lead to less pressure on the roads and therefore better driving conditions.

But like so many things that get caught up in political debates, it gets turned into a polar black/white right/wrong left/right simplistic argument. And as some wise person once said, for every complex problem there is a simple solution – and it is invariably wrong.

Yeh good post, have a good Christmas 🙂

shadow boxer9:59 am 22 Dec 11

sigh, did you actually read our posts ?

The problem with Northbourne is the number of cross streets, traffic lights, driveways and the lack of slip roads for the buses. These things prevent it from performing its intended aim of distributing traffic into civic and State Circle in a timely manner.

The thing is if you fix these things the current PT is perfectly adequate and can run down the side streets unless it is an express service not making significant stops.

Corbell and Gungahlin Al both understand this and realise that closing a lane to cars simply isn’t going to solve the problem.

Bramina said :

shadow boxer said :

Until buses can make a more efficient fist of me dropping my kids at school, running the errands and going to work I will continue to do it in the most personally efficient way

I think this is a good point. People are pretty good at figuring out what costs them less. If public transport is more costly or more of a hassle, they’ll drive their cars.

If public transport is cheap, quick and abundant, people will leave their car at home.

Public transport is cheap. Cars are expensive you just haven’t done the math. Your car also impedes the quickness and abundence of PT.

shadow boxer said :

Until buses can make a more efficient fist of me dropping my kids at school, running the errands and going to work I will continue to do it in the most personally efficient way

I think this is a good point. People are pretty good at figuring out what costs them less. If public transport is more costly or more of a hassle, they’ll drive their cars.

If public transport is cheap, quick and abundant, people will leave their car at home.

Gungahlin Al said :

But like so many things that get caught up in political debates, it gets turned into a polar black/white right/wrong left/right simplistic argument.

I suspect that the logical reason for this – ignoring the numerous illogical ones – is that it comes down to money. What gets spent on one thing doesn’t get spent on something else. The pot of money is finite, so while it might not be a zero-sum game it is constrained by the size of the pot.

Gungahlin Al said :

And as some wise person once said, for every complex problem there is a simple solution – and it is invariably wrong.

And there are lot of complex solutions that are also wrong. KISS is usually a good starting point, if not the right end point.

Gungahlin Al9:48 am 21 Dec 11

shadow boxer said :

That would surprise me Al, you would need to source it somehow.

I don’t have anything against buses, I do have an issue when people think car drivers should have lanes removed or exorbitant parking to force them to catch them. Particulalry when it is based on an ideology or a fallacy like more roads mean more people drive cars.

Surprised me too. But it came straight from ACTION/Roads reps at one of our meetings over a year ago. But makes perfect sense when you stop and think about it. And the bus patronage has shot up since then.

YOU might be surprised to know that I have been recommending AGAINST removal of Northbourne traffic lanes – in the consultation sessions and directly to the minister just two days ago, plus in public forums. I believe there is a very high risk of losing support and therefore it becoming a political football. So apart from venting here, what have you done to communicate your concerns to the decisionmakers?

But, it has been proven through research that more road capacity does indeed increase usage.

What you need to get your head around is that wanting better PT is not an attack on those like you who have to combine multiple destinations and legs to daily trips thereby making PT impractical. As a person destined to always be driving, I can’t understand why you wouldn’t be wholeheartedly supporting moves for improved PT, because it can only lead to less pressure on the roads and therefore better driving conditions.

But like so many things that get caught up in political debates, it gets turned into a polar black/white right/wrong left/right simplistic argument. And as some wise person once said, for every complex problem there is a simple solution – and it is invariably wrong.

Hanksinatra said :

NoImRight said :

Yes this is really more of a Shelbyville idea.

True. Shelbyville already has trams. Lets get em!

And our lemon tree!

NoImRight said :

Yes this is really more of a Shelbyville idea.

True. Shelbyville already has trams. Lets get em!

shadow boxer said :

I know exactly what efficiency means, you need to take the green goggles off. You are taking my comment of

“People drive because it is the most efficient way for them to live their life and get to the places they have to be.”

out of context and twisting it to suit your argument.

Until buses can make a more efficient fist of me dropping my kids at school, running the errands and going to work I will continue to do it in the most personally efficient way

So shadow boxer I’m assuming you are a decent sort of cove but probably a bit busy for research so I have done some for you with regards to your “efficienciet ways”
On the assumption of your personal decency I make the assumption that these rights of yours are for everyone?…lets work on that basis.
Canberra has (I’m forced by my own laziness to work with old rythms) a population density of 1110 people per square mile. Bangladesh, a country has a density of 2850 people per square mile. I assume you wish that they would not be put out by the inconvenience of public transport any more than you. So instead of sitting back and making donations to charities and not getting involved why don’t we together come up with a strategic plan to save the people of Bangladesh the inconvvenient situation of not being able to drop their kids off at school.
It is a noble project we could do but not without being beset with problems from the outset. For a start, just as a city so designed to comfort the population of that country in the manner of life you and I think befitting, we would have to expand the borders of Bangladesh by 3 times its current size based upon the stats I have presented. Still there would be the problem again of arable land to feed the population…I’m not sure by how much more. I’ll leave that with you to start with. Its fair I shouldn’t have to do all the research on this project if we accept an accolade such as the nobel prize.
If that is too hard, China only has a density of 365 people per square mile only half that of our city, on the make, cashed up and with a vibrant car industry! Well…it is true that it is somewhat like Australia with vast amounts of desert, but at least smaller numbers in a certain regards and..importantly a well equiped armed forces with nuclear capability.
Anyhow the main thing is this. Lets show them how its done by sensible people.

Gungahlin Al said :

Bramina said :

This is an incredibly short-sighted analysis.

1/ Gungahlin is only half built. We have about 44,000 people – we will have within the next decade 90-100,000 people.

2/ The roads out barely cope with 44,000 people, and road congestion grows exponentially to population growth – it isn’t a straight linear relationship. While the other town centres already have higher populations, they also have pretty much most of the road network they need to support those populations.

3/ Your talk about generating more revenue in the other town centres only considers ticketing. What about increased value of land sales? Lots of land still to sell in Gungahlin. What about costs deferred or avoided? There are two sides to a ledger. The road construction costs to cope with the likely increase in Gungahlin vehicle use in the absence of a good PT solution could go close to breaking the already barely sustainable ACT Budget situation. We’re talking duplications for Gundaroo and William Slim, Horse Park Drive, Flemington Rd, Gungahlin Drive (the northern bit – yes it isn’t all 4 lanes even still!), Mirrabei and more.

Shadow Boxer: as usual, the world just isn’t as black andd white as you seem to think. No doubt you’d be surprised to find out that there are already more people travelling down Flemington Road on buses than in cars.

I’m not saying that they shouldn’t build light rail to Gungahlin, just that they should build it first to Belconnen, Woden and perhaps Tuggeranong.

Yes this is really more of a Shelbyville idea.

if moving the bus lanes on northbourne to the middle lanes they would have to do thatto all the main bus ruotes, belconnen to civic to woden to tuggass to create a positive flow of traffic.

there is no point adding the light rail, when they can just move the buses. i think they should look at improving the road quality, and moving the buses to the medium strip would help that. has anyone seen the state of the interesection of northbourn and flemington ave? gunnas is only new but there is a huge amount of traffic.

they just did the whole my way thing so if they were going to do light rail they would have to join the my way fair ticket to that.

shadow boxer said :

I know exactly what efficiency means, you need to take the green goggles off. You are taking my comment of

“People drive because it is the most efficient way for them to live their life and get to the places they have to be.”

out of context and twisting it to suit your argument.

Until buses can make a more efficient fist of me dropping my kids at school, running the errands and going to work I will continue to do it in the most personally efficient way

Talk about twisting, I have not mentioned the word bus once until now. The whole point of a light rail network is to connect the major centres with a rapid transit network allowing people the choice of a car instead of having no option but to have a car (or 2 cars for a family).

Cars are financial burdens with rego and insurance alone costing more than a year of public transport, and before you say that public transport is subsidised, remember that roads are subsided to a greater amount as the registration money does not come close to providing enough money.

devils_advocate said :

shadow boxer said :

The petrol argument is equally silly, the vast majority of cars will be electric or hybrid in 20 years, there is ample oil in the ground to get us through.

Many are already switching to ethanol in the highest blend we can get (85 or above). Very resistant to detonation and the major fuel pump manufacturerings (detchwerks, sard, etc) are now making their pumps ethanol compatible. Now if only more servos would sell the good stuff.

I’ll be interested when they sell 98octane or higher ethanol.

shadow boxer2:22 pm 20 Dec 11

I know exactly what efficiency means, you need to take the green goggles off. You are taking my comment of

“People drive because it is the most efficient way for them to live their life and get to the places they have to be.”

out of context and twisting it to suit your argument.

Until buses can make a more efficient fist of me dropping my kids at school, running the errands and going to work I will continue to do it in the most personally efficient way

shadow boxer said :

PA1 said Do you have any numbers to justify this efficiency? Also when I said Gungahlin, I didn’t say it would end at the town centre. I would expect it to continue to the outer suburbs.

The fact is that that petrol prices are not going to get cheaper as it is getting increasingly harder and more expensive to get oil from underground sources. I would just find it irresponsible to only have have transport based on a volatile commodity such as oil, because as shown during the oil crises of the 1970s, this can cause economic effects such as stagflation.

————————————–

Well here’s one number, it takes me 15 minutes to get to civic on the GDE in my car and about 1 1/2 hours in a bus. Seems pretty efficient.

The petrol argument is equally silly, the vast majority of cars will be electric or hybrid in 20 years, there is ample oil in the ground to get us through.

I think you don’t know what efficiency means. According to the dictionary it is “effective in use of energy or resources”, so how is 200+ cars compared to one light rail train more efficient when the fuel for that car has to be shipped from overseas.

devils_advocate1:59 pm 20 Dec 11

shadow boxer said :

The petrol argument is equally silly, the vast majority of cars will be electric or hybrid in 20 years, there is ample oil in the ground to get us through.

Many are already switching to ethanol in the highest blend we can get (85 or above). Very resistant to detonation and the major fuel pump manufacturerings (detchwerks, sard, etc) are now making their pumps ethanol compatible. Now if only more servos would sell the good stuff.

Felix the Cat1:58 pm 20 Dec 11

Gungahlin Al said :

Bramina said :

.

Shadow Boxer: as usual, the world just isn’t as black andd white as you seem to think. No doubt you’d be surprised to find out that there are already more people travelling down Flemington Road on buses than in cars.

I’d be surprised. Is that new Park & Ride facility at EPIC open yet? A few times I’ve been past there I’ve only ever seen the one car there. Possibly the same one, abandoned while the owner is doing neverending loops of Gungahlin and Belconnen suburbs on a bus…

Hanksinatra said :

Never insult cars, its un-Australian. Never provide links to serious studies on civic issues, they nearly all have heresies about cars and anyway good citizens would only be offended, like Fred Nile encountering porn.
Thats right folks, no amount of studies or statistics is going to persuade anybody of the total waste of cars because its more like a religion than anything else.

More like a “drug” fits better. The ignorance of junkies.

shadow boxer1:38 pm 20 Dec 11

BicycleCanberra said :

shadow boxer said :

BicycleCanberra said :

shadow boxer said :

I don’t have anything against buses, I do have an issue when people think car drivers should have lanes removed or exorbitant parking to force them to catch them. Particularly when it is based on an ideology or a fallacy like more roads mean more people drive cars.[/quote>

Its not a fallacy, sadly many cities have discovered this time and time again. ‘Built it and they will come’, if only it was not true for car traffic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3vz1i5DyN4&feature=related

wtf,………good use of scary music but emotive claptrap devoid of facts.

lets go to the car yards in Belconnen and see if there has been a marked uptake in cars sold to Gungahlin since the opening of the GDE. It just doesn’t work that way.

What Canberra is some car utopia that defies logic for increased motor vehicle use. A house with a double garage, family buys two cars, now times that by how many houses are built, then do the traffic analysis? what a surprise! roads are becoming congested ,lets built another lane or we will build another road over here that we solve it etc…………….. some familiar.

http://vimeo.com/2898463

No I agree with that, obviously if you build more houses you need more roads and more people have cars.

The bit I struggle with is the “buld it and they will come” argument. i.e. the building of a road does not magically relate to more people needing it. Rather, it was built because it was needed.

The argument like the one pushed over the GDE that building a road will result in more cars is backwards logic.

Never insult cars, its un-Australian. Never provide links to serious studies on civic issues, they nearly all have heresies about cars and anyway good citizens would only be offended, like Fred Nile encountering porn.
Thats right folks, no amount of studies or statistics is going to persuade anybody of the total waste of cars because its more like a religion than anything else.

BicycleCanberra1:10 pm 20 Dec 11

shadow boxer said :

BicycleCanberra said :

shadow boxer said :

I don’t have anything against buses, I do have an issue when people think car drivers should have lanes removed or exorbitant parking to force them to catch them. Particularly when it is based on an ideology or a fallacy like more roads mean more people drive cars.[/quote>

Its not a fallacy, sadly many cities have discovered this time and time again. ‘Built it and they will come’, if only it was not true for car traffic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3vz1i5DyN4&feature=related

wtf,………good use of scary music but emotive claptrap devoid of facts.

lets go to the car yards in Belconnen and see if there has been a marked uptake in cars sold to Gungahlin since the opening of the GDE. It just doesn’t work that way.

What Canberra is some car utopia that defies logic for increased motor vehicle use. A house with a double garage, family buys two cars, now times that by how many houses are built, then do the traffic analysis? what a surprise! roads are becoming congested ,lets built another lane or we will build another road over here that we solve it etc…………….. some familiar.

http://vimeo.com/2898463

shadow boxer11:47 am 20 Dec 11

BicycleCanberra said :

shadow boxer said :

I don’t have anything against buses, I do have an issue when people think car drivers should have lanes removed or exorbitant parking to force them to catch them. Particularly when it is based on an ideology or a fallacy like more roads mean more people drive cars.[/quote>

Its not a fallacy, sadly many cities have discovered this time and time again. ‘Built it and they will come’, if only it was not true for car traffic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3vz1i5DyN4&feature=related

wtf,………good use of scary music but emotive claptrap devoid of facts.

lets go to the car yards in Belconnen and see if there has been a marked uptake in cars sold to Gungahlin since the opening of the GDE. It just doesn’t work that way.

shadow boxer11:42 am 20 Dec 11

PA1 said Do you have any numbers to justify this efficiency? Also when I said Gungahlin, I didn’t say it would end at the town centre. I would expect it to continue to the outer suburbs.

The fact is that that petrol prices are not going to get cheaper as it is getting increasingly harder and more expensive to get oil from underground sources. I would just find it irresponsible to only have have transport based on a volatile commodity such as oil, because as shown during the oil crises of the 1970s, this can cause economic effects such as stagflation.

————————————–

Well here’s one number, it takes me 15 minutes to get to civic on the GDE in my car and about 1 1/2 hours in a bus. Seems pretty efficient.

The petrol argument is equally silly, the vast majority of cars will be electric or hybrid in 20 years, there is ample oil in the ground to get us through.

BicycleCanberra11:30 am 20 Dec 11

shadow boxer said :

I don’t have anything against buses, I do have an issue when people think car drivers should have lanes removed or exorbitant parking to force them to catch them. Particularly when it is based on an ideology or a fallacy like more roads mean more people drive cars.[/quote>

Its not a fallacy, sadly many cities have discovered this time and time again. ‘Built it and they will come’, if only it was not true for car traffic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3vz1i5DyN4&feature=related

shadow boxer said :

PA1 said That would increase traffic congestion making the commute even longer as it would encourage more cars onto the road. Cars are the most inefficient mode of travel as they tend to only have single occupants.

—————–

I reckon this is the biggest furphy of the green movement. People don’t rush to buy cars because someone built a road. They always said this would happen if the GDE was built, total nonsense.

Nearly as silly as the idea that half the people who drive down N’bourne are going to decide to head to the Gunners marketplace to catch a train or bus. I just can’t see 20-30,000 peole heading down there every morning in the middle of winter.

People drive because it is the most efficient way for them to live their life and get to the places they have to be.

Do you have any numbers to justify this efficiency? Also when I said Gungahlin, I didn’t say it would end at the town centre. I would expect it to continue to the outer suburbs.

The fact is that that petrol prices are not going to get cheaper as it is getting increasingly harder and more expensive to get oil from underground sources. I would just find it irresponsible to only have have transport based on a volatile commodity such as oil, because as shown during the oil crises of the 1970s, this can cause economic effects such as stagflation.

shadow boxer10:35 am 20 Dec 11

Gungahlin Al said :

Bramina said :

Looking at a map, Gungahlin people have more choices for routes into civic than Belconnen or the South.

As I said before, a Civic-Gungahlin tramway would cost about 25% more than a Belconnen-Civic tramway and would probably cost more than a Civic-Woden tramway yet it would carry far fewer passengers than either one. Each of those two would would alleviate more traffic, save more people time and generate more revenue than any Gungahlin tram line.

This is an incredibly short-sighted analysis.

1/ Gungahlin is only half built. We have about 44,000 people – we will have within the next decade 90-100,000 people.

2/ The roads out barely cope with 44,000 people, and road congestion grows exponentially to population growth – it isn’t a straight linear relationship. While the other town centres already have higher populations, they also have pretty much most of the road network they need to support those populations.

3/ Your talk about generating more revenue in the other town centres only considers ticketing. What about increased value of land sales? Lots of land still to sell in Gungahlin. What about costs deferred or avoided? There are two sides to a ledger. The road construction costs to cope with the likely increase in Gungahlin vehicle use in the absence of a good PT solution could go close to breaking the already barely sustainable ACT Budget situation. We’re talking duplications for Gundaroo and William Slim, Horse Park Drive, Flemington Rd, Gungahlin Drive (the northern bit – yes it isn’t all 4 lanes even still!), Mirrabei and more.

Shadow Boxer: as usual, the world just isn’t as black andd white as you seem to think. No doubt you’d be surprised to find out that there are already more people travelling down Flemington Road on buses than in cars.

That would surprise me Al, you would need to source it somehow.

I don’t have anything against buses, I do have an issue when people think car drivers should have lanes removed or exorbitant parking to force them to catch them. Particulalry when it is based on an ideology or a fallacy like more roads mean more people drive cars.

Gungahlin Al10:07 am 20 Dec 11

Bramina said :

Looking at a map, Gungahlin people have more choices for routes into civic than Belconnen or the South.

As I said before, a Civic-Gungahlin tramway would cost about 25% more than a Belconnen-Civic tramway and would probably cost more than a Civic-Woden tramway yet it would carry far fewer passengers than either one. Each of those two would would alleviate more traffic, save more people time and generate more revenue than any Gungahlin tram line.

This is an incredibly short-sighted analysis.

1/ Gungahlin is only half built. We have about 44,000 people – we will have within the next decade 90-100,000 people.

2/ The roads out barely cope with 44,000 people, and road congestion grows exponentially to population growth – it isn’t a straight linear relationship. While the other town centres already have higher populations, they also have pretty much most of the road network they need to support those populations.

3/ Your talk about generating more revenue in the other town centres only considers ticketing. What about increased value of land sales? Lots of land still to sell in Gungahlin. What about costs deferred or avoided? There are two sides to a ledger. The road construction costs to cope with the likely increase in Gungahlin vehicle use in the absence of a good PT solution could go close to breaking the already barely sustainable ACT Budget situation. We’re talking duplications for Gundaroo and William Slim, Horse Park Drive, Flemington Rd, Gungahlin Drive (the northern bit – yes it isn’t all 4 lanes even still!), Mirrabei and more.

Shadow Boxer: as usual, the world just isn’t as black andd white as you seem to think. No doubt you’d be surprised to find out that there are already more people travelling down Flemington Road on buses than in cars.

shadow boxer9:15 am 20 Dec 11

PA1 said That would increase traffic congestion making the commute even longer as it would encourage more cars onto the road. Cars are the most inefficient mode of travel as they tend to only have single occupants.

—————–

I reckon this is the biggest furphy of the green movement. People don’t rush to buy cars because someone built a road. They always said this would happen if the GDE was built, total nonsense.

Nearly as silly as the idea that half the people who drive down N’bourne are going to decide to head to the Gunners marketplace to catch a train or bus. I just can’t see 20-30,000 peole heading down there every morning in the middle of winter.

People drive because it is the most efficient way for them to live their life and get to the places they have to be.

Classified said :

I reckon it would be easier to just provide more car parking and make it cheaper.

No such thing as a free lunch maybe, but definately no such thing as free parking. We are all paying for it big time. Try this interesting link.
http://larvatusprodeo.net/2011/05/25/quick-link-the-high-cost-of-free-parking/

PantsMan said :

An election a year away. Right on time. But hasn’t Corbell been working on this for 10 years?

Rome wasn’t built in a day!

dpm said :

PA1 said :

Classified said :

I reckon it would be easier to just provide more car parking and make it cheaper.

That would increase traffic congestion making the commute even longer as it would encourage more cars onto the road. Cars are the most inefficient mode of travel as they tend to only have single occupants.

The best thing they can do have a light rail train installed in the median, travelling to Civic from Gungahlin, with limited stops and a path that is separated from the traffic. I would expect the route to be completed in a travel time of under 15 minutes, with a further extension to Woden only taking less then 10 minutes.

So, light rail from directly Gunners to Civic, basically ignoring North Canberra on the way through? And just after they finished the GDE for Gunners people?Are all transport probems in Canberra related to Gunners?

Looking at a map, Gungahlin people have more choices for routes into civic than Belconnen or the South.

As I said before, a Civic-Gungahlin tramway would cost about 25% more than a Belconnen-Civic tramway and would probably cost more than a Civic-Woden tramway yet it would carry far fewer passengers than either one. Each of those two would would alleviate more traffic, save more people time and generate more revenue than any Gungahlin tram line.

PA1 said :

Classified said :

I reckon it would be easier to just provide more car parking and make it cheaper.

That would increase traffic congestion making the commute even longer as it would encourage more cars onto the road. Cars are the most inefficient mode of travel as they tend to only have single occupants.

The best thing they can do have a light rail train installed in the median, travelling to Civic from Gungahlin, with limited stops and a path that is separated from the traffic. I would expect the route to be completed in a travel time of under 15 minutes, with a further extension to Woden only taking less then 10 minutes.

So, light rail from directly Gunners to Civic, basically ignoring North Canberra on the way through? And just after they finished the GDE for Gunners people?Are all transport probems in Canberra related to Gunners?

BicycleCanberra7:32 pm 19 Dec 11

Deref said :

matt31221 said :

BUILD IT!! DO IT!!

Offering to pay for it?

Just reallocate the money from the Majura Parkway!

BicycleCanberra7:31 pm 19 Dec 11

Deref said :

matt31221 said :

BUILD IT!! DO IT!!

Offering to pay for it?

Just reallocate the money from the Majura Parkway

PA1 said :

Classified said :

I reckon it would be easier to just provide more car parking and make it cheaper.

That would increase traffic congestion making the commute even longer as it would encourage more cars onto the road. Cars are the most inefficient mode of travel as they tend to only have single occupants.

The best thing they can do have a light rail train installed in the median, travelling to Civic from Gungahlin, with limited stops and a path that is separated from the traffic. I would expect the route to be completed in a travel time of under 15 minutes, with a further extension to Woden only taking less then 10 minutes.

My apologies, I succumbed to a moment of trolly delight.

My actual vote here is to build more separate bus lanes, to separate buses from traffic where possible.

Classified said :

I reckon it would be easier to just provide more car parking and make it cheaper.

That would increase traffic congestion making the commute even longer as it would encourage more cars onto the road. Cars are the most inefficient mode of travel as they tend to only have single occupants.

The best thing they can do have a light rail train installed in the median, travelling to Civic from Gungahlin, with limited stops and a path that is separated from the traffic. I would expect the route to be completed in a travel time of under 15 minutes, with a further extension to Woden only taking less then 10 minutes.

I reckon it would be easier to just provide more car parking and make it cheaper.

matt31221 said :

BUILD IT!! DO IT!!

Offering to pay for it?

BUILD IT!! DO IT!!

shadow boxer1:18 pm 19 Dec 11

fromthecapital said :

shadow boxer said :

Corbell is spot on here, there is no need to improve the public transport

Sigh…

Sorry, did I tread on your dogma ?

schmeah said :

jase! said :

put a single lane + blke lane down the middle of the median between the rows of trees (a few might have to go) and run busses down them, no overhead wires, no massive 3 ring circus. make it so it flows tidally, traffic going against the peak can stay on the current lanes.

+1 .. the buses on Northbourne are a hazard, there is no slip lane for them to pull in to and they pile on to each other every morning. Between them and the cyclists, it can be scary in peak hour traffic. I certainly think the median strip should be used for cyclists and buses .. a light rail in the middle will just be another means to cognitive overload for other road users .. get the buses and cyclists off the main drag and let them travel freely through the strip leaving cars with an otherwise unhindered trip on Northbourne. Everyone’s happy.

+2. This makes so much more sense. And while less glamorous than light rail, it’s so much less expensive! All bus stops could be at the traffic lights, which would mitigate the disadvantage of buses still being forced to obey them.

Not so sure about the cycle path being in the middle too- wouldn’t it leave cyclists either more likely to collide with buses – or the bus passengers? Just a thought …

fromthecapital10:57 am 19 Dec 11

shadow boxer said :

Corbell is spot on here, there is no need to improve the public transport

Sigh…

BicycleCanberra10:26 am 19 Dec 11

Gungahlin Al said :

And as a regular bus user, I’d debate that assertion in the report that buses have a “high comfort level”. That all comes down to the level of crowding and the quality (or more often lack of quality) of the driver and their accelerator/brake style. But for sure a bus ride will never be as comfortable as a rail ride.

But we will have to ask these questions when they have consultation sessions.
We’ll try to organise something for February.

Your not comparing apples with apples here. The newer Buses that are not here in Canberra do have high comfort levels. A BRT system can provide the same level of capacity (people per hour) as lightrail and even heavy rail. You will still have to stand up in a crowded light rail car the same as a bus.

Fliponout said :

I’am So sick of this Bloody Government and It …think Tank and Viability Studies …I have been a Labour supporter for over 30 years and I’am SO SO SICK OF THE “BS” that this one come up with
The amount of $$$ wasted of these Visibility studies is a load of crap you could have run the hole of Canberra on light rail with the money wasted on visibility studies then they do a visibility study on the study .
LABOR get of your Arse in to gear and start doing the things that the People of Canberra Want and need
PLEASE KATIE AND ANDREW don’t become another Jon Stanhope

+1

or we could invite 100+ Australians for a 20-20 conference to look like we are doing something. It smells of what is happening natinally, more spin, little action

damien haas said :

Minister Corbell provided a much more succinct insight into how the ACT Government thinks on ABC local news last night. He was talking about the need for a transit way for buses down the centre of Northbourne Avenue. According to Corbell, the problem is that buses are holding up traffic when they stop to pick up or drop off passengers.

There was no mention of the need to improve public transport, it was all about the need to reduce trip times for private cars along Northbourne Avenue at peak hour.

Good to see that there’s some residual intelligence in ACT government. Traffic light sequencing would be a damn good start.

shadow boxer10:48 pm 18 Dec 11

damien haas said :

Minister Corbell provided a much more succinct insight into how the ACT Government thinks on ABC local news last night. He was talking about the need for a transit way for buses down the centre of Northbourne Avenue. According to Corbell, the problem is that buses are holding up traffic when they stop to pick up or drop off passengers.

There was no mention of the need to improve public transport, it was all about the need to reduce trip times for private cars along Northbourne Avenue at peak hour.

Corbell is spot on here, there is no need to improve the public transport, the need is to get Northbourne flowing again by fixing the lights and removing the buses. Personally I think Dickson>Braddon to a depot on the eastern side of civic is a better route but down the middle would work as well with priority lights for all peak hour traffic.

The ABC news reported if something isn’t done soon the commute from Gungahlin (to Civic) could regularly take an hour. Oh how the heart bleeds! The bus from Giralang already DOES take an hour most days…

Minister Corbell provided a much more succinct insight into how the ACT Government thinks on ABC local news last night. He was talking about the need for a transit way for buses down the centre of Northbourne Avenue. According to Corbell, the problem is that buses are holding up traffic when they stop to pick up or drop off passengers.

There was no mention of the need to improve public transport, it was all about the need to reduce trip times for private cars along Northbourne Avenue at peak hour.

Bramina said :

$70m – Manuka and Kingston from Civic via Russell and Commonwealth Ave (3.5 km)

Correction – that should be Manuka and Kingston from Commonwealth Avenue. The $120 million Kingston route was via Russell.

Am liking the fact the median could end up being used for what it was planned for by Walter Burley Griffin – public transit. However, I hope that most of the trees can be retained. It would be a very very sad day to see them all removed. It’s one of the things that gives Northbourne Av some character and provides something other than buildings to look at when you drive into Civic.

Gungahlin Al said :

Funny thing – when I look at a map it seems the Gungahlin town centre is pretty much the same distance from Civic as is Woden. So where’s this “far from everything” crap come from?

And yet here we have the government yesterday on ABC News saying that if nothing is done about the Gungahlin-Civic commute, it will end up taking a full hour. So perhaps Gooterz that is why?
.

So, they (finally!) finished the new GDE, and it will now (or ‘soon’) take an hour to get to Civic from Gungahlin?
If you did go the GDE way to Civic (and got off at Belco way or Parkes way), i’m wondering where the 60 mins would come from? If it will take 60 mins that way – with it finished – why did they bother with it? Seems like there might be other issues involved! E.g.If most of the time taken on the trip is in bits that other Canberran use too (e.g. Parkes way, Belco way) then it isn’t specifically to do with Gungahlin, but more like an over population of Canberra (or over-emphasis on Civic) in general? Just wondering!

This sounds like a pipe dream. I am not convinced it would solve or go to any real length to alleviate peek hour congestion on Northbourne. I would prefer heavier fast rail links between the centres: Belco, Civic, Woden, Tuggers, Gunghers? with feeder tram/bus options at each station and limited stops in between. The Civic or Mitchell or Airport station needs to be located where the HSR through station would be located…. and I opened my post with the word “pipedream” :{

Gungahlin Al11:23 am 18 Dec 11

It remains to be seen why they have suggested against going down the middle of the Northbourne trees. I think that this total remake of that corridor will not sit well with most Canberrans.

My thoughts are that LR tracks could be installed down the middle cheaply because they could be laid over the various cables and pipes the NCA has stupidly allowed down there without them being relocated. Bus lanes would definitely need all that shifted though. So thinking that perhaps the slavish pursuit of bus solutions means they have ruled the centre option not cost effective?

One of the posters on our Facebook page has suggested putting the LR lanes on the outer edge would allow buses to also use those lanes. Interesting thought.

And as a regular bus user, I’d debate that assertion in the report that buses have a “high comfort level”. That all comes down to the level of crowding and the quality (or more often lack of quality) of the driver and their accelerator/brake style. But for sure a bus ride will never be as comfortable as a rail ride.

But we will have to ask these questions when they have consultation sessions.
We’ll try to organise something for February.

Gungahlin is the wrong place to run light rail, at least initially.

Trams are much better than busses. They carry far more people and have much shorter stop times than busses. But this comes at a cost, light rail is expensive, it costs about $20 million per kilometre for tracks, trams and other startup costs.

Because it costs so much, light rail should be placed where it can take advantage of its capacity and short loading times – on major routes with high demand.

The Gungahlin railway would be about 12.5km long and would cost $250 million. But this is just a branch to a satellite suburb that would essentially transport local residents to civic and back. There are higher value routes that would attract more passengers and cost less.

Consider running light rail to Belconnen, Woden or Tuggeranong. Each one of these has more people than Gungahlin and major established business areas (passengers would travel in both directions). The cost would be $200 million to Belconnen, $200 million plus to Woden (crossing the commonwealth bridge would add cost) and $200 million to Tuggers.

This would serve a huge portion of Canberra forming the high capacity, high frequency backbone of future light rail development. Importantly it would integrate with and strengthen the existing bus network.

Here are some possible extensions to this network. Which ones would you choose if you were the cash strapped ACT government?

$20m – ANU from Northborne (1 km)
$30m – Bruce Stadium (1.5km)
$30m – Dickson via Northbourne (1.5 km)
$70m – Manuka and Kingston from Civic via Russell and Commonwealth Ave (3.5 km)
$70m – Wanniassa towards Woden (3.5km)
$70m – Wanniassa to Tuggers (3.5km)
$80 m – Weston from Woden (4 km)
$80-100m – Molongolo from Adelaide Avenue (4-5 km)
$100m – Airport from Russell (5 km)
$100m – Holt from Belconnen (5 km)
$100m – Charnwood from Belconnen (5 km)
$120m – Kingston from Civic via Kings Ave Bridge (6 km)
$130m – Queanbeyan from Fyshwick (6.5 km)
$150m – Fyshwick from Kingston (7.5 km)
$170m – Queanbeyan from the airport (8.5 km)
$180m – Gungahlin from Dickson (9 km)
$??? – Public art (0 km) sorry, I couldn’t resist.

NB these costs are minimal costs running tracks along the ground with minimal preparation. Additional infrastructure like overpasses cost more, about $10m minimum for example. Fortunately Canberra has been blessed with routes that do not need extensive modifications.

Gungahlin Al11:18 am 18 Dec 11

Funny thing – when I look at a map it seems the Gungahlin town centre is pretty much the same distance from Civic as is Woden. So where’s this “far from everything” crap come from?

And yet here we have the government yesterday on ABC News saying that if nothing is done about the Gungahlin-Civic commute, it will end up taking a full hour. So perhaps Gooterz that is why?

Toss in: 1/ the corridor is already there 2/ if something isn’t done the alternative road construction costs will nuke the ACT budget 3/ it is the perfect test bed for the rest of Canberra 4/ the diverse cultural mix in Gungahlin will lend itself to higher PT uptake than other areas where car fixation is entrenched 5/ the government can cash in on higher land sale prices from the guaranteed PT availability solution, as opposed to fully developed areas where only the rates increase would result, etc etc.

Fliponout said :

you could have run the hole of Canberra

Like it. Was it intentional?

You don’t quote I’am, btw. At least you spelt arse correctly.

A few back-of-the-envelope calculations…

IIRC, the studies so far have estimated a minimum cost of a(n American) billion dollars to build this monorail light rail. Let’s say we want to pay it back in 20 years. If we assume an average of 500 passenger/trips per day (extremely generous, I’d say), each ticket would need to cost $274.

If we take lots of drugs and imagine 10,000 passenger/trips per day, that would make it a mere $14 per ticket.

Of course you could always ask Canberra ratepayers to subsidise it. Assuming a population of 350,000 of which, let’s say 100,000 are ratepayers, that works out at a neat $500 per year per ratepayer over the 20 year payback period.

None of this allows for inflation, either financial or population (though the two could conceivably cancel each other out) nor does it take into account interest on the loan.

What’s not to like?

There is no doubt that something needs to be done for residents of Gungahlin. I reckon the idea of a transit way down the middle is ideal. Build the thing initially as a bus road but put in place the underground infrastructure that would allow for the thing to have rails and overhead power added at a later time for trams.

Northborne Ave was designed wide for this reason, and looking at Flemington road it too was clearly designed wider than normal for this reason too.

gooterz said :

Why Gunners? didnt people choose to live out there because it was far from everything?
If anything they should be planning it for monoglo because that is currently in the build phase and light rail would be easy to adapt to the plans

And pleanty more other routes would benefit.

Actually, Gunners people commonly tout that they are closer to Civic than most of Canberra – when they get in the standard Cbr argument of ‘my suburb is better than your suburb’..
Then, they complain that they need better transport to Civic?
You can’t have ot both ways – you’re either way better off than most Canberrans (so there other people!), or you’re hard done by and need a monorail, monorail, monorail….!
So which is it? Hahahaha!

I’am So sick of this Bloody Government and It …think Tank and Viability Studies …I have been a Labour supporter for over 30 years and I’am SO SO SICK OF THE “BS” that this one come up with
The amount of $$$ wasted of these Visibility studies is a load of crap you could have run the hole of Canberra on light rail with the money wasted on visibility studies then they do a visibility study on the study .
LABOR get of your Arse in to gear and start doing the things that the People of Canberra Want and need
PLEASE KATIE AND ANDREW don’t become another Jon Stanhope

jase! said :

put a single lane + blke lane down the middle of the median between the rows of trees (a few might have to go) and run busses down them, no overhead wires, no massive 3 ring circus. make it so it flows tidally, traffic going against the peak can stay on the current lanes.

+1 .. the buses on Northbourne are a hazard, there is no slip lane for them to pull in to and they pile on to each other every morning. Between them and the cyclists, it can be scary in peak hour traffic. I certainly think the median strip should be used for cyclists and buses .. a light rail in the middle will just be another means to cognitive overload for other road users .. get the buses and cyclists off the main drag and let them travel freely through the strip leaving cars with an otherwise unhindered trip on Northbourne. Everyone’s happy.

gooterz said :

Why Gunners? didn’t people choose to live out there because it was far from everything?

I don’t get this. In the last week I’ve mentioned to a few people that I ride from Harrison to ANU every day and they can’t believe I “ride that far”. When I asked how far their rides were from Hughes and Weston to ANU, for example, it was 11-12km. My ride? 12.5km.

Why not just tarmac down the middle of northborne, throw in some special lights so they get priority and use the current bus service?

Hosinator said :

I’m all for it, but to make it work they will have to:

– Ensure the services are frequent. About every 5 to 8 minutes apart at peak times and up to every 15 minutes apart at other times; and
– Make parking in Canberra insanely expensive, about $50 to $75 a day should do it.

So to ensure the success of a light rail service from Gungahlin, we need to make parking in the city prohibitively expensive for everyone in Canberra, regardless of whether the light rail option is available to them or not?

An election a year away. Right on time. But hasn’t Corbell been working on this for 10 years?

I’m all for it, but to make it work they will have to:

– Ensure the services are frequent. About every 5 to 8 minutes apart at peak times and up to every 15 minutes apart at other times; and
– Make parking in Canberra insanely expensive, about $50 to $75 a day should do it.

ACT Light Rail are pleased that light rail is being considered as an ‘option’, but continue to remind readers that the FAQ for this project sets conditions that mean that the ACT Government actually endorsing light rail is unlikley.

It should also be made clear that numbers and reports matter very little, ultimately the decision to select light rail over buses will be a political decision.

Instead of yet another cost benefit analysis, the government should be conducting a proper engineering study. This would provide the true costs of building a light rail route from Civic to Gungahlin, and more importantly, would meet the guidelines that Infrastructure Australia have for ‘shovel ready’ projects.

More on this at our blog http://www.actlightrail.info/ or facebook page http://www.facebook.com/groups/actlightrail/

Damien Haas
Chair, ACT Light Rail

Toot Toot? Don’t you mean ‘DING DING’!

Why Gunners? didnt people choose to live out there because it was far from everything?
If anything they should be planning it for monoglo because that is currently in the build phase and light rail would be easy to adapt to the plans

And pleanty more other routes would benefit.

It’d be nice if they fixed the public transport network to all the other parts of Canberra too… Northbourne and Gungahlin are but a minuscule part of the problem… No doubt they’ll worry about Molonglo AFTER it’s be built.

Plenty of space in Canberra to implement transit routes… Plenty of space down Belconnen way…

The problem i see, is the trams/buses will still be stopped at traffic lights. People don’t catch public transport in canberra because its quicker to drive. This is really what the light rail group should be pushing as a reason for it, however if it doesn’t bypass the current traffic then there is no point.

Although i’m all for trialling dedicated bus lanes down the median strips, with train stop style stops.

I think this is a puppet show to be honest with you to keep people thinking they are doing something about public transport in Canberra.

they are so determined to make this hard (and expensive) for themselves

put a single lane + blke lane down the middle of the median between the rows of trees (a few might have to go) and run busses down them, no overhead wires, no massive 3 ring circus. make it so it flows tidally, traffic going against the peak can stay on the current lanes.

the problem is this is probably too easy a solution and not announcement/grand opening worthy

Lots of planning, whether the full plan will ever happen is another story. It looks like there are some good ideas coming, also some bad ones, hopefully they will get weeded out.

Some of the northbourne priority measures could be implemented now, but TAMS cant manage traffic to save themselves. They also continue to propos to keep the ridiculously close stops on northbourne, which is a reason why the current bus network is tediously slow when buses stop every 100-200m.

They need new ideas, not recycling the old ones.

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