7 May 2007

Local Muslims allegedly beat up Kurt Kennedy

| johnboy
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Back in the day we were keen watchers of Kurt Kennedy.

We thrilled at his tilt for the the 2004 Legislative Assembly with his policies which included stamp duty concessions for having the relatives living next door, more voting power for large families, and being able to sink a bore in your backyard to get ‘free’ water.

We pondered the madness of his website (sadly now reworked, but happily still just as mad. And then when he sent in the answers to our candiate questionaire we really had a good old giggle.

We were a little bit sad when he only got 168 votes in that election (by no means the lowest candidate vote in Molonglo that year).

Then he surprised us all by converting to Islam and founding the “Best Party of Allah” which managed to goad Sophie Mirabella (née Panopoulos) into hysterics on the floor of the national parliament. This was followed up by a withdrawal of the party’s application allegedly for fear of being tagged as terrorists.

So imagine our surprise when today’s Canberra Times ran a story on this local legend getting beaten up on the grounds of the Canberra Mosque. It seems Kurt is now the secretary of the ACT Islamic Society. He had just announced that he was replacing the local imam of 13 year’s service, Mohammed Swaiti, with Yahya Atay.

While we would never advocating beating Kurt Kennedy up, we do wonder how more traditional members of the Muslim community would feel about this recent arrival, with a most unconventional grasp on reality, ditching their long standing spiritual leader?

We also wonder why the Canberra Times didn’t see fit to mention Kurt’s past.

UPDATED: The CT’s Graham Downie is now on the story with more background and at least a passing mention of Kurt’s colourful past. The Australian is always keen on a story about violent muslims and does not fail to deliver. The Oz notes that an AVO has been sought, more interestingly they also have the claim that Kurt converted to Islam 11 years ago. Maybe he’s been off in his tardis since 2004 when he was asked about his faith by this website and replied thusly:

“what are your religious beliefs and how do you anticipate they would guide your actions in the Assembly, which policies of yours are motivated by your religious beliefs” I BELIEVE IN SOMEONE STRONGER THAN YOU AND ME. I’M JUST A SERVANT OF THAT PERSON.

An answer which could be consistent with being a Muslim, but is not one of more ringing statements of faith ever uttered.

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On the first, I think you may be right, but hardline atheism still exists. Agnosticism is at least defensible.

I don’t agree with your interpretation of teh question I put to bonfire. We can either make up a set of “moral” or “ethical” standards based on our own presumption and what the civil law and civil society will countenance, or we can accept that there are notions of right and wrong that have a more general application. On the other point, I can forgive (and always try to forgive) what is done to me. But I cannot forgive an offence against God, any more than I can forgive the Nazis for their treatment of Jews, Gypsies etc – it was fundamentally wrong, but the ill was not done to me but to other identifiable people and, at a broader level, to the trust humanity might want to give itself.

Here endeth the lesson. We will now sing Psalm 23.

Absent Diane5:11 pm 09 May 07

I believe most atheist’s even the most hardcore are agnostics. Reject the notion of god as we know it, but can’t say for sure as beyond what we know;we don’t know.

And to answer the question you pose to bonfire, what you are saying is that sometimes it is easier to blame someone else rather than taking personal responsibility for something? And in the same sense you say it is comforting knowing that someone will face judgement or account for their actions. I find that rather unchristian, because the christian ethos is to forgive is it not, therfore no one should need to account for their actions if they are forgiven? God certainly does not forgive if it sends you to hell and makes you accountable for actions, which as discussed is a very OT kind belief.

Absent Diane – to believe in nothing is as absolute and as unsubstantiable as to believe in anything.
Bonfire – do you really think society would be any better (or people any happier) if the only motivation for being honest and caring was that it satisfied some personal sense of ethics? Sometimes, it is a comfort to say that things happen because of something one cannot see and sometimes it is comforting and helpful to believe that everyone will have to account for their actions at some point. It may be a crutch, but so far as I know,I have not met a person who was not already limping.

Absent Diane4:30 pm 09 May 07

Also there is without doubt cultural factors influencing fundamentalism and all religious belief as you say eg the middle east and the bible belt area of the u.s. The major factors for fundamentalism essentially being poverty and education. In theory moderate believers should divorce themselves from these fundie types for the good of their religion (all religions). The paradox for religions then as I see it is that it would be ‘unchristian’ (I would deem it irresponsible) for them to divorce these people due to the unfortunate hand they have been dealt in life. But to help them is to sponsor their ideals. And the fundamentalist meme is so ingrained into these cultures, that it would probably take several generations before it is replaced with something more moderate, therefore you would be sponsoring fundie actions for until that point which it is no longer required.

As fundie atheist as I am, sometimes I think it would be easier for us all if some godlike creature came down and spelt it all out for us.

ahhh vicepope.

the problem with the theological rambling is that there is no god, dingular, plural, binary, seen, unseen etc etc.

these are all manifestations of (take your pick) primitive, uneducated, ill-informed, possibly mentally ill HUMANS.

now if you want to argue that one could adopt a philosophy based on the teachings of a group of men (which is what i would group organised religions as), that would hold more ground.

as a person who endured bible studies all the way through to HSC – i found the more scrutiny a biblical text wa subjected to, the less believable they were. im aware of the various commentaries written over the years. im amazed more priest scholars didnt recant a lot harder in the days when they burnt you alive for heresy i guess.

Absent Diane4:07 pm 09 May 07

So going by that theory; you would believe that a polytheistic religion such as hinduism, are seeing various manifestations of one singular entity? As they are able to break god down and personify different elements of god? would that then give them a deeper insight into gods mind?

Assume for the moment that there is one God – the product is not divided into separate bits for literalists/metaphorists or for Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists etc. No single church is right for all, because it would be alienated from the challenges facing the life of any specific believer.

Those who have faith all have a glimpse of God, but each from a different angle. Parts of the determination of the way each of us sees God will depend on social, political or cultural factors (cue the boring truth that the same person born in England would be Anglican, in Spain Catholic, in Germany Lutheran etc). Those cultural factors clutter something of what we see by distracting us with ritual or specialised clothes or whatever. The text-based literalists have those distractions, but they also have something like a smearing of their glasses through an inability to see that the medium through which they perceive God is compromised by the time and context in which it was produced.

Once one accepts that God is indivisible, it makes manifest the stupidity of those who resort to violence, exclusion or scorn or who interfere with an individual freedom to choose his or her path to God or who think that God loves only one church or that God demands particular political or social beliefs or actions.

Absent Diane2:56 pm 09 May 07

So do you feel that within the non-fundie churches today there is a greater push for the personal god? as opposed to the fundie god of OT/koran etc.

The biggest problem I have with open minded moderates, is that their existence will always open the door for fundamentalism. And that is something that I don’t have an answer for.

For what it’s worth (which will be little in the eyes of some), the mainstream Catholics/Anglicans/Uniting church etc all think creationism (and creationism-lite, in the form of intelliget design) is a crock. It is impossible to conceive of any God as a being who goes around laying misleading evidence everywhere throughout the universe for no apparent reason.

The Old Testament was put together as the random ramblings of various leaders of a group of semi-educated itinerants in a culture where literal truth was neither offered nor expected. Not every account is included in the Old or New Testament, meaning that neither is reliable at the factual level. (It’s like memory, where it’s easier to recall how you felt than what you saw or heard). It is heavy in allegory and metaphor, and light on for anything resembling facts, especially in areas where the hearers (this was predominantly oral tradition) might have had some contradictory knowledge. However, they had the wit to ask themselves some questions about how and why they got there. They devised a system of belief that made some sense (at least as much as the SCientologists) and formed the basis for some sensible social rules.

A mainstream approach these days is to see it as an early work of literature from an alien culture (sort of like Beowulf) but to think about what it meant, rather than memorise and treat as fact what it said. There are now a couple of thousand years of commentary, all of which helps to contextualise what is in the text.

But this highlights a distinction between the OT and, say, the Koran and the Book of Mormon. The first is an acount written by man and asserted (at a limited level of literalness) to be the account of man’s interactions with a God who both cared and policed. The second is seen a literally the word of God and the third is claimed to have been written by God or an angel. We can interpret the first, but it is hard to argue with anyone who says that any informed reading of the second or third is as valid as any other. And in both cases (and with those who take the OT and creationism literally), there is a great deal of cultural paint that gets added to the structure.

Probably the same religion the Time Cube guy belongs to

neanderthalsis1:07 pm 09 May 07

Bonfire:
All fossils and evidence of evolution were planted by the flying spaghetti monster to test the faith of the Pastafarians. The world was created with a touch of his noodly appendage and heaven contains beer volcanos and a stripper factory.

The church of the flyuing spaghetti monster also has conclusive evidence that global warming has been caused by the decline in pirate numbers. As numbers of pirates dwindled, we have seen increased evidence of global warming and major environmental catastrophies. The proof is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:FSM_Pirates.jpg

Pastafarianism: the religion of choice for athiests

Absent Diane11:08 am 09 May 07

yeah ok – that’s a concern, I think people with mental issues or people that are unstable due to personal issues are the target niche of a lot of religious organisations. Which is sad, as they do it under the pretence of genuine compassion.

I think its a genuine mental health problem actually.

Absent Diane9:58 am 09 May 07

That is truly bizzare. You do hear the odd story of seeming intelligent and learned people crossing over to creationism (the lowest form of religion in my less than humble opinion). You have to wonder what it drives it, a desire to be a part of something?

i encountered a similar person – i asked how she could reconcile her belief that earth was only 4000 years old when the fossil record ad other sceince showed the earth was clearly millions of years old.

Her response was (paraphrasing) ‘who knows what the scientists of tomorrow will find out. a lot of scientists are wrong.’

unlike human contribution to global warming where the scientific community is divided, i think something like evolution and the age of the earth is something that there is no disagreement about.

now back to our scheduled program.

i saw this story got a run on the 9 news last night (the imam bashing, not nutty christians) and i think this is going to get messier before it is resolved.

who actually ‘owns’ the physical property of the mosque ? who forms the committees that run it ?

and how is kurt kennedy involved in them ?

““what are your religious beliefs and how do you anticipate they would guide your actions in the Assembly, which policies of yours are motivated by your religious beliefs” I BELIEVE IN SOMEONE STRONGER THAN YOU AND ME. I’M JUST A SERVANT OF THAT PERSON.”

I just read that and thought what a total crack pot. It reminds me of a mate of mine that after completing his degree in Geology and and also completing a thesis in soil science the basis of which was describing various soil profiles dating back 100’s of thousands of years.

Suddenly he got mixed up with a fundamentalist Christian group who believed that the Earth was 5000 years old or there abouts and was totally brainwashed.

Under weight of evidence such as the 4000m ice cap in Antarctica with seasonal layering proving that it alone is much older then 5000 years lol. And isotope decay ratio dating like C14 and others.
The Himalayan mountain range etc etc lol

No amount of argument could convince him, his mind was totally closed off to reason and logic and instead the mind chose to believe not what his scientific training had shown him but in tales of magic and great wonders and fantasy.

It wasn’t that surprising really because he was always one to fall for things like pyramid schemes and other dodgy money making scheems so it seems his mind was easily manipulated.

My invisible friend is cooler than your invisible friend.

many parts of the old testament are direct steals from pre-judaic religions – example 1 – the epic of gilgamesh recorded in cuneiform by the sumerians, later converted into the great flood noah tale by the jews.

so is it the word of god or the word of man or is it just a tale they used to tell around the campfires pre electricity and television?

eg 2 the continual mis-referencing of the virgin mary – when it was common among jewish peopel of the time to take a wife who was a virgin until officially married – even if they lived together for the rest of their lives. so the virgin mary immaculate conception myth is deliberately used to force people (and especially women) to conform to certain moral codes for a few millennia.

i could go on, but you get my drift.

the little pebble etc are just the latest in groups of peopel who are excluded from ‘mainstream’ fairy tale believers because they dont tow a certain code laid down by man to ensure the corporate brand maintains authority.

neanderthalsis12:00 pm 08 May 07

If they all became Pastafarians and followed the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster all the worlds problems would be solved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

The thing is all these Gods came about at a time when human knowledge of the world was very limited. They could not explain the universe that they saw around them so to explain these things various Gods and mythical beings where conjured up.
Now as we became more sophisticated we refined these ideas and generally required less Gods to go about our lives.

Generally Muslims live in the 3rd world or developing world and many people are disadvantaged and are lowly educated.
These types of people are much more easily brainwashed or more inclined to join up with a group of people that they see as away of gaining some purpose in the lives where otherwise they have none.

Also with the advent of modern forms of communication these people are fully aware of the relative richness of the West and how unfair this seems to them when they compare this with their own society.
So the leaders of these militant groups take advantage of this situation by brainwashing these people when they are very young basically saying that the reason they are living in poverty is because of the West hence the child suicide bombers etc etc.

Anyway enough of that rant lol

Absent Diane9:32 am 08 May 07

predating the universe was the multiverse… so god must be older than that now right!! Well maybe the truth is that god exists outside of reality and time? that sounds like a nice and convenient answer, despite the fact that is completely illogical, because nothing can exist outside of time can it? Oh well I guess we will just to have faith in our omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent leader, of which faith yet undetermined. 🙂

Absent Diane9:10 am 08 May 07

Gods don’t kill people. People with Gods kill people.

Marakesh(sp)looks like an interesting place.

Sheesh, islam apparently promotes peace according to muslims but isn’t it interesting how thin that sugar coated surface is? As an outsider it doesn’t appear that Muslims actually believe it themselves. They can’t even hold an election in Australia without violence?

Sammy. When were you born? Do you pre-date the whole universe (c 15 billion years) or just the earth (c4 billion years)? The old testament line was that man was created in God’s image – modern experience (say the last 5,000 years) is that we have been trying to recreate God in ours. So, even accepting only the first, it’s probably reasonable to think that in Sammy we see a blurred (possibly very blurred) reflection of God.

At least he had the balls to stand-up and be a clown.

Most of the weanies in this group would run away from a feather duster.

sammy i await your orders…

there’s a lack of absolute proof either way

With that logic, please assume I am your god.

There is no proof to suggest otherwise.

hey you can believe in anything you want to if it gets you through the day – and doesnt impact upon me and they way i live my life.

but despite many millennia of people demanding proof of their particular god – none has been forthcoming.

instead we have seen man using his desires to dominate others – in their gods name.

Bonfire – there’s a lack of absolute proof either way, which is why religions are described as being based on faith. For my part, I believe because I can and because to do otherwise means that life is simply about the process of getting through to the end. What you see in yourself (I’m sure) as a spark of altruistic humanism is the same light that some see as a soul.

I wish, though, that we could lose a lot of the silliness that comes from debating which religion is right when the options include that (as you think) none of them are and (as I am suggesting) all of them are to some extent. There has been some good work done in this area by some serious theologians, with the Christian end being represented by the Jesus Seminar.

i think its amusing that any religion thinks it has fringe fruit loop believers.

newsflash – despite millennia of waiting there is no evidence *any* of your gods exist.

“Like-thinking”, Astrojax. In other words, of the same mindset.
The theological demands of the Hillsong creed (“God loves me because he made me rich and if I
give money to the Hillsong mob, he’ll make me even richer”) doesn’t require a lot of thinking.

‘hillsong’ and ‘thinking people’ – aww vicepope, really, you crack us up! 😉

Ralph – no, it wasn’t Hillsong. It was smaller scale, and seemed to rely heavily on intrusion and fear. There was a single family at the core.

On Hillsong, though, I liked the comment in the Chaser (I think it was) that it was a terrible excuse for a religion but a wonderful place to exchange business cards with like-thinking people.

Kurt deserves a good smack in the face. He’s a tool!

The normal Baptists in Australia had to put up with a cult in, I think, the Hills District in Sydney until they pretty well sidelined them.

Hillsong?

Maelinar – you make my point well. The fruit loops who comprise the Magnificat Meal people have been pretty well chucked out of mainstream Catholicism, just like the St Coast “Little Pebble” cult. Every mainstream religion has the wackos on the fringe.

The US Mormons have been vexed for years by seriously ugly polygamous/child abusing nutbuckets. The normal Baptists in Australia had to put up with a cult in, I think, the Hills District in Sydney until they pretty well sidelined them. The US Baptists had to consider whether they wanted to be related to snake-handling cousin marrying crazies.

And that’s the issue. When you have someone outside the immediate community, that person or body can decide to accept a bit of fringe-ism or give it the boot. Catholicism decided (perhaps wrongly) to permit the proto-fascism of Opus Dei. Most Catholics and most parishes ignore it, but it has a peculiar appeal to some Liberal voting wealthy professionals.

Islam has a structure where this kind of rejection cannot readily happen. Power is diffused, and authority depends on the Book, where (as with the Bible) interpretations vary.

That similar things don’t often happen in, say, Catholic or Anglican churches is down to the existence of an authority outside the local community

Take a look here for starters…

http://www.rickross.com/groups/meal.html

thanks for the thoughtful contibution BigDave

I assume BigDave was joking, albeit unfunnily. It looks like what happens every time any organisation has internal rivalries – yawn. Look at the ALP or the local soccer club or an indigenous group.
A feature of Islam is the absence of a centralised control, and this gives greater power to those who make themselves active within a community. That similar things don’t often happen in, say, Catholic or Anglican churches is down to the existence of an authority outside the local community. It’s sometimes a good thing, an sometimes not. But litigation and nastiness happens everywhere and this wouldn’t be the first time people have come to blows in trying to play politics. As I said, yawn.
The absence of a “head office” or “regional manager” is something that can be difficult to take on board if one has grown up in a hierarchy. It can make it difficult when hierarchies (governments, other churches etc) try to communicate with non-hierarchical bodies because authority and power can be separate in the latter.
(I am not a Muslim, though I know a few. I don’t know any of the people involved in the alleged fracas).

I hate Muslims. Was it only one of them that got beaten up? That’s a shame.

M – This is directed squarely at you. (I guess you were there too) and this is not how it happened. He made an announcement, people were upset and took it out on him outside. All 5 of them vs Kurt (you were probably one of the people that waited for him outside were you?)

crazy as a coconut

A restraining order has been taken out

Erm, no, a restraining order is to be applied for.

They don’t just hand them out, thankfully.

A restraining order has been taken out against the former imam and his supporters…
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200705/s1915706.htm

barking toad8:11 am 07 May 07

The religion of peace and beheading atrracts loonies.

the guy who told it to the CT is related to kurt by marriage.

I thought the Federales had squashed the gay marriage legislation?

I don’t know why someone from within the Islamic community would leak this to the media.
Non-islamic people are already doing a good enough job of dragging their image through the dirt.
Take a leaf from Christianity and only leak the bad stuff 30 years after it happened.

Pandy I’ve been offered places on the ticket by numerous parties.

I think I do more good doing this.

You can go root yourself.

i was there kurt started the fight by grabbing the other guys neck. only problem is kurt cant fight for shit. most of the article was inaccurate the guy who told it to the CT is related to kurt by marriage. a little bit of unethical reporting

Gota drink less.

At least he had the guts ti stand for election. And had a taste for being beating up.

What have you done noteworthy lately John? (Running Tiotact does not count).

Even the imam movie doesn’t capitalise imam.

OpenYourMind1:14 pm 06 May 07

‘…unconventional grasp on reality’… that really is a funny line!

Speaking of CT,and apologies for being off topic, but Ian Warden’s Sunday Times article comparing the isolation of living in Gunghalin to the isolation of the newly discovered extrasolar planet Gliese 581 c. Even if you are sensitive about Gunghalin, it’s still a funny read.

correct on the spelling, thanks for that.

I don’t capitalise just as i wouldn’t capitalise Priest

“…he was replacing the local iman of 13 year’s service”

Isn’t it Imam?

The CT don’t see fit to mention a lot of things.

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