21 July 2011

Location, Location, Star rating?

| johnboy
Join the conversation
31

Jase has pointed out that AdelaideNow has a story on the impact of green ratings, particularly here in Canberra:

“They already have it (green stars) set up in the ACT (Australian Capital Territory), and their saying has changed from `location, location, location’ to `location, location, star rating’ “.

With our serried ranks of real estate moguls here on RiotACT we’re curious as to whether you feel that is the case?

Join the conversation

31
All Comments
  • All Comments
  • Website Comments
LatestOldest

Watson said :

KB1971 said :

Jethro said :

AG Canberra said :

The star rating system for residences is a joke.

Agreed. When we bought our house was rated 2.5 stars, yet it is cosy in winter and cool in summer. Our winter quarter electricity bill comes in at about $300.

Agreed also, it does (or didnt) tak into consideration of which direction the house is facing & where the windows are to make the most of the winter sun. As a result it seems that more & more hoses & units are getting smaller windows which makes them more reliant on heating & electric lighting.

I am stuffed if I know how the new units at the corner of Barr Smith Ave & Athllon Dve in Bonythoin can be cosidered 5 star, they look so dark & dingy from the outside.

Call me cynical but its just another good idea turned into a crock by the building industry.

I would’ve thought that large windows make the house lose more heat? Unless it’s double glazing, that is. And/or it has proper shutters. Same in summer. If you happen to have large windows facing West, you’ll need awnings or shutters or you’ll be cranking the aircon up, if you have any.

If I had stacks of money, I’d install double glazing in and shutters on all my windows. It would halve my heating bill. (I don’t use aircon anyway – but it would be nice to be able to keep the house cooler too.)

They do but if you get the ratio & location correct then they will benifit the thermal efficiency of your house fantastically. If they are placed in a northerly direction they make the most of the wonter sun with the summer sun not being such an issue due to its higher location during those months.

Being able to catch the breeze in summer aids keeping the place cool. It is such a shame that the building industry cannot seem to be flexible with house designs and will charge like a wounded bull if you want a house built to your design, this seems to be a Canberra thing though as my parents have built 6 houses interstate & not one of them was with the same floor plan & cost far less than any of the “pre-fab” homes here.

I guess what I am saying is that while there is an EER, I dont belive its the best one or really takes into consideration any real innovations into improving the thermal efficiency new housing in the ACT.

Innovation said :

2604 said :

Watson said :

If I had stacks of money, I’d install double glazing in and shutters on all my windows. It would halve my heating bill. (I don’t use aircon anyway – but it would be nice to be able to keep the house cooler too.)

Run the numbers. The (gas) heating bills for our (1970s, heavily renovated and insulated) house are only about $700 per year, so even if that cost were halved it would take nearly 30 years to recoup the costs of double-glazing every window in the house. Not sure about shutters.

I just checked. Our house is over 22 degrees tonight and I don’t think the heating has been on for days. I very much doubt our bill will be anything like $700.

Congratulations.

2604 said :

Watson said :

If I had stacks of money, I’d install double glazing in and shutters on all my windows. It would halve my heating bill. (I don’t use aircon anyway – but it would be nice to be able to keep the house cooler too.)

Run the numbers. The (gas) heating bills for our (1970s, heavily renovated and insulated) house are only about $700 per year, so even if that cost were halved it would take nearly 30 years to recoup the costs of double-glazing every window in the house. Not sure about shutters.

But surely that’s also because double glazing, etc is so ridiculously expensive here? I’m sure it’s not that expensive in countries where it’s installed in most houses.

Innovation said :

2604 said :

Watson said :

If I had stacks of money, I’d install double glazing in and shutters on all my windows. It would halve my heating bill. (I don’t use aircon anyway – but it would be nice to be able to keep the house cooler too.)

Run the numbers. The (gas) heating bills for our (1970s, heavily renovated and insulated) house are only about $700 per year, so even if that cost were halved it would take nearly 30 years to recoup the costs of double-glazing every window in the house. Not sure about shutters.

I just checked. Our house is over 22 degrees tonight and I don’t think the heating has been on for days. I very much doubt our bill will be anything like $700.

A well designed modern home with no double glazing will still cost stuff all to heat. Our place costs less than 300 bucks a year to heat to a comfortable level, and we don’t spare the heater.

2604 said :

Watson said :

If I had stacks of money, I’d install double glazing in and shutters on all my windows. It would halve my heating bill. (I don’t use aircon anyway – but it would be nice to be able to keep the house cooler too.)

Run the numbers. The (gas) heating bills for our (1970s, heavily renovated and insulated) house are only about $700 per year, so even if that cost were halved it would take nearly 30 years to recoup the costs of double-glazing every window in the house. Not sure about shutters.

I just checked. Our house is over 22 degrees tonight and I don’t think the heating has been on for days. I very much doubt our bill will be anything like $700.

Watson said :

If I had stacks of money, I’d install double glazing in and shutters on all my windows. It would halve my heating bill. (I don’t use aircon anyway – but it would be nice to be able to keep the house cooler too.)

Run the numbers. The (gas) heating bills for our (1970s, heavily renovated and insulated) house are only about $700 per year, so even if that cost were halved it would take nearly 30 years to recoup the costs of double-glazing every window in the house. Not sure about shutters.

Gungahlin Al9:08 pm 23 Jul 11

JC said :

Gungahlin Al said :

It’s a critical factor for me. We designed our house to be as good as we could possibly afford, and having a toasty warm home that is easy to keep that way is simply wonderful.

Whether or not people would walk away from a low star place is one thing, but research has shown it means a substantial price difference that you’ll get.

Only reason I’d even consider a low-star place is if I was cranking up the dozer.

Al there is a difference between designing a new house with efficiency in mind and buying an established house based on EER. Also you quote some research that says higher EER houses get higher prices, care to share the source of this research, or is it research done by Gungahlin Al?

Just can’t help yourself sometimes can you JC?

Took me 10 seconds on Google to find this: http://www.nathers.gov.au/about/publications/eer-house-price-act.html

I can’t recall the earlier one on which I based a briefing for the Brisbane Lord Mayor when I worked for the BCC Greenhouse team in 2003. We were toying with a number of innovative ideas such as an internal emissions trading scheme, a conservation credits scheme, and emulating the ACT EER declaration process – for commercial as well as residential. But the main thing we were working on was the draft Sustainable Housing Code for SEQROC (all the Councils in Southeast Qld): http://www.ausbale.org/files/Codes/housing_code.pdf . It went on to trigger what became state-wide law that essentially ruled out electric storage HWS, among other improvements. And as happens here, the HIA kicked and screamed the whole way…

Back OT, if I was buying an existing place rather than designing from scratch (my preferred – sick of other people’s mistakes), I’d be considering the EER as the starting point, then the “bones” of the house and how accessible it is to retrofit improvements to the insultation, glasswork, HVC, HWS, solar access, etc. Many Canberra houses I wouldn’t touch except with a dozer blade.

while the adelaide nights are fairly clear, we certainly have more stars in canberra than smoggy sinney or melbourne… that’s a plus for canberra, surely?

spiderinsider5:12 pm 23 Jul 11

djk said :

spiderinsider said :

What’s frustrating is that EERs aren’t required for rentals, which where they’d be more useful: if you’re buying you can always improve insulation, heating etc. If you’re renting you’re stuck.

I thought they were required to be made available if one had been done on the property?

I stand corrected! After a quick check on Allhomes it appears you’re correct. Still would prefer if they were compulsory for a rentals though…

KB1971 said :

Jethro said :

AG Canberra said :

The star rating system for residences is a joke.

Agreed. When we bought our house was rated 2.5 stars, yet it is cosy in winter and cool in summer. Our winter quarter electricity bill comes in at about $300.

Agreed also, it does (or didnt) tak into consideration of which direction the house is facing & where the windows are to make the most of the winter sun. As a result it seems that more & more hoses & units are getting smaller windows which makes them more reliant on heating & electric lighting.

I am stuffed if I know how the new units at the corner of Barr Smith Ave & Athllon Dve in Bonythoin can be cosidered 5 star, they look so dark & dingy from the outside.

Call me cynical but its just another good idea turned into a crock by the building industry.

Ok “Cynical”. Seriously though, although improvements are still needed, I think the concept still has merit. From memory, although things might have changed in recent years, some of the problems are that there are different assessment systems and standards across Australia and for different building products. Also, it is probably subjective at the margins and prone to error if an assessor misses (or places too much emphasis on) a feature and can quickly go out of date if there are even slight modifications.

Windows are particularly problematic and full of compromises which these systems have to take into account. The smaller the “hole” in the wall and the more efficient that “hole” is (eg double glazing, timber framing, thermal breaks etc, tinting, low E glass), the less heat is lost and gained through the wall in winter and summer respectively (efficient artificial lighting is always going to be cheaper than heating and cooling costs). Compromises (and installation cost increases) start to arise for things like bigger holes for extra ventilation in summer or to provide passive solar heating (from the North) in winter. Tinting windows to the North (and, I might be wrong, but possibly even features like Argon gas) are counterproductive to passive heating requirements and rating systems have to balance this up.

When we built our house many industry professionals didn’t have a clue about energy efficiency.
Some window companies were even recommending at the time that we tint our Northern windows (and I have seen some houses where this has actually been done)! We opted for very large Northern windows but, while this was good for the winter aspect of our energy rating, it temporarily counted heavily against us for the summer part of the rating (because we hadn’t yet installed our summer shading).

KB1971 said :

Jethro said :

AG Canberra said :

The star rating system for residences is a joke.

Agreed. When we bought our house was rated 2.5 stars, yet it is cosy in winter and cool in summer. Our winter quarter electricity bill comes in at about $300.

Agreed also, it does (or didnt) tak into consideration of which direction the house is facing & where the windows are to make the most of the winter sun. As a result it seems that more & more hoses & units are getting smaller windows which makes them more reliant on heating & electric lighting.

I am stuffed if I know how the new units at the corner of Barr Smith Ave & Athllon Dve in Bonythoin can be cosidered 5 star, they look so dark & dingy from the outside.

Call me cynical but its just another good idea turned into a crock by the building industry.

I would’ve thought that large windows make the house lose more heat? Unless it’s double glazing, that is. And/or it has proper shutters. Same in summer. If you happen to have large windows facing West, you’ll need awnings or shutters or you’ll be cranking the aircon up, if you have any.

If I had stacks of money, I’d install double glazing in and shutters on all my windows. It would halve my heating bill. (I don’t use aircon anyway – but it would be nice to be able to keep the house cooler too.)

Jethro said :

AG Canberra said :

The star rating system for residences is a joke.

Agreed. When we bought our house was rated 2.5 stars, yet it is cosy in winter and cool in summer. Our winter quarter electricity bill comes in at about $300.

Agreed also, it does (or didnt) tak into consideration of which direction the house is facing & where the windows are to make the most of the winter sun. As a result it seems that more & more hoses & units are getting smaller windows which makes them more reliant on heating & electric lighting.

I am stuffed if I know how the new units at the corner of Barr Smith Ave & Athllon Dve in Bonythoin can be cosidered 5 star, they look so dark & dingy from the outside.

Call me cynical but its just another good idea turned into a crock by the building industry.

EER is important-ish, but there things more important, like location, size, number of rooms, garaging, etc.

Although there are people that go on as though EER is all that matters, I reckon these people are in the minority.

Watson said :

How would it possibly use more water if you’re using it for the same purposes?

It takes time, and water for a continuous hot water system to get up to temperature. I estimate in my place it takes about 5 seconds, plus the time it takes to get through the pipes. My ensuite takes up to 45 seconds.

With a tank the only waste is what is cold in the pipes. Having said that there are preheat options on continuous hot water, which returns cold water from the furtherest point back into the heater rather than down the drain, meaning when you open the tap at this point hot water comes out.

spiderinsider said :

What’s frustrating is that EERs aren’t required for rentals, which where they’d be more useful: if you’re buying you can always improve insulation, heating etc. If you’re renting you’re stuck.

I thought they were required to be made available if one had been done on the property?

spiderinsider3:20 pm 22 Jul 11

What’s frustrating is that EERs aren’t required for rentals, which where they’d be more useful: if you’re buying you can always improve insulation, heating etc. If you’re renting you’re stuck.

Cassandra said :

Watson said :

Cassandra said :

With regard to storage hot water services and continuous flow or instantaneous hot water services, the efficiency of each is dependent on the type of use the household places on the system continuous flow can use more water than storage systems (not as much of a problem in europe but a big one here) and can depending on design of the plumbing system use more energy. As in all matters of energy and water it depends on a number of variables that in many cases work against each other..

How would it possibly use more water if you’re using it for the same purposes?

Also, surely it would only porssibly use more energy if you’re a big hot water user. For my one shower a day and fairly minimal other uses for hot water, surely keeping a massive tank of hot water hot in freezing winter temperatures is going to use a hell of a lot more of electricity. If you tend to use heaps of hot water, it may not make much of a difference.

But it does sound like the rules and the assessment are a bit arbitrary…

The energy and water use is determined by how much hot water you need and the amount of the draw before the water reaches full temperature.

If all you need is some hot water to say rinse a cup you need to draw enough water at sufficient volume to engage the heating unit (either gas or electricity) this is also going to be the same amount you would need if you are going to have a shower or run a bath.

This is where a large amount of both water and energy can be lost. The continuos flow systems are best when used for continuous supply where supply is intermittent then a well insulated storage is often better as only the water in the leg between the HWS and the tap needs to be replaced to get to full temperature.

But as I said before it is all about design and use, the only way you can get cold water to hot is by putting a lot of energy into it and if you want it to move from hot to cold quickly then then energy requirement increases.

Its also important to note that the rise in temperature is very different in Canberra to Sydney or Melbourne this time of year inlet temperatures can be as low as 5 degrees in Canberra where most other Australian capitals won’t see that drop below the low teens. Getting water from 5 to 50 degrees is a lot more energy intensive that getting it from 15 to 50 degrees.

Most of the products being sold advertise operating figures for normal Australian conditions which for certain times of the year we operate outside of, this is a particular problem for Heat Pump style HWS in Canberra always read the label or the specification sheet to make sure how what it is that you are buying will perform in our climate zone.

Off topic, but I someone was on the inventors with some contraption to prevent water wastage as a result of waiting for the hot water to come out of the tap. I wasn’t really watching so no idea how it worked.

Watson said :

Cassandra said :

With regard to storage hot water services and continuous flow or instantaneous hot water services, the efficiency of each is dependent on the type of use the household places on the system continuous flow can use more water than storage systems (not as much of a problem in europe but a big one here) and can depending on design of the plumbing system use more energy. As in all matters of energy and water it depends on a number of variables that in many cases work against each other..

How would it possibly use more water if you’re using it for the same purposes?

Also, surely it would only porssibly use more energy if you’re a big hot water user. For my one shower a day and fairly minimal other uses for hot water, surely keeping a massive tank of hot water hot in freezing winter temperatures is going to use a hell of a lot more of electricity. If you tend to use heaps of hot water, it may not make much of a difference.

But it does sound like the rules and the assessment are a bit arbitrary…

The energy and water use is determined by how much hot water you need and the amount of the draw before the water reaches full temperature.

If all you need is some hot water to say rinse a cup you need to draw enough water at sufficient volume to engage the heating unit (either gas or electricity) this is also going to be the same amount you would need if you are going to have a shower or run a bath.

This is where a large amount of both water and energy can be lost. The continuos flow systems are best when used for continuous supply where supply is intermittent then a well insulated storage is often better as only the water in the leg between the HWS and the tap needs to be replaced to get to full temperature.

But as I said before it is all about design and use, the only way you can get cold water to hot is by putting a lot of energy into it and if you want it to move from hot to cold quickly then then energy requirement increases.

Its also important to note that the rise in temperature is very different in Canberra to Sydney or Melbourne this time of year inlet temperatures can be as low as 5 degrees in Canberra where most other Australian capitals won’t see that drop below the low teens. Getting water from 5 to 50 degrees is a lot more energy intensive that getting it from 15 to 50 degrees.

Most of the products being sold advertise operating figures for normal Australian conditions which for certain times of the year we operate outside of, this is a particular problem for Heat Pump style HWS in Canberra always read the label or the specification sheet to make sure how what it is that you are buying will perform in our climate zone.

AG Canberra said :

The star rating system for residences is a joke.

Agreed. When we bought our house was rated 2.5 stars, yet it is cosy in winter and cool in summer. Our winter quarter electricity bill comes in at about $300.

Cassandra said :

With regard to storage hot water services and continuous flow or instantaneous hot water services, the efficiency of each is dependent on the type of use the household places on the system continuous flow can use more water than storage systems (not as much of a problem in europe but a big one here) and can depending on design of the plumbing system use more energy. As in all matters of energy and water it depends on a number of variables that in many cases work against each other..

How would it possibly use more water if you’re using it for the same purposes?

Also, surely it would only porssibly use more energy if you’re a big hot water user. For my one shower a day and fairly minimal other uses for hot water, surely keeping a massive tank of hot water hot in freezing winter temperatures is going to use a hell of a lot more of electricity. If you tend to use heaps of hot water, it may not make much of a difference.

But it does sound like the rules and the assessment are a bit arbitrary…

Under the Building Code of Australia (BCA) the minimum star rating for new building work went from 5 star to six stars on 1 May 2011 however only the the ACT and Victoria adopted the new standard from 1 May 2011.

With regard to storage hot water services and continuous flow or instantaneous hot water services, the efficiency of each is dependent on the type of use the household places on the system continuous flow can use more water than storage systems (not as much of a problem in europe but a big one here) and can depending on design of the plumbing system use more energy. As in all matters of energy and water it depends on a number of variables that in many cases work against each other.

Gunner Al, the report being talked about was undertaken by the ABS on behalf of the Australian Greenhouse Office and use EER reports collected in the ACT.

There is a difference between energy rating for the purpose of the BCA and an EER, the EER assesses what is actually happing with a building as opposed to a building which has not been occupied. For example if a house has a concrete slab with north facing glazing then the thermal characteristics are rated for that at the design stage, the home owner moves in carpets the slab, carpet is a good insulator which then reduces the thermal performance of the slab which will reduce EER at the point of sale. As i said above everything is about trade off and balance in this area. Some people love bare concrete others love the feel of shag pile and bear rugs but each choice impacts the outcome.

Its also important to remember the ratings don’t take into account major appliances which can be big uses of energy.

OpenYourMind8:34 am 22 Jul 11

I really don’t have a lot of confidence in the star rating. I’ve bought and sold a number of older houses in Canberra and sometimes the energy rating seems more like a random number and it certainly doesn’t correlate with the apparent energy efficiency of any home I’ve owned.

As an example, check out on Allhomes the block of units in 3 Waddell Pl, Curtin. There’s 4 units on the market at the moment. They range in EER between 0.0, 2, 3.5 & 5.0. Now, it’s hard to make a judgement just from a listing as orientation, insulation, glazing etc. come into the equation. However, the unit that has a 5 energy rating has an electric hot water, timber venetians and has an almost identical look and feel to the 0 rated unit.

Some of the newer houses in Canberra look like energy consumption monsters to me with large open spaces, no eves, aircon, poor orientation etc. Maybe they get their energy efficiency by being all so closely packed together!

Gungahlin Al said :

It’s a critical factor for me. We designed our house to be as good as we could possibly afford, and having a toasty warm home that is easy to keep that way is simply wonderful.

Whether or not people would walk away from a low star place is one thing, but research has shown it means a substantial price difference that you’ll get.

Only reason I’d even consider a low-star place is if I was cranking up the dozer.

Al there is a difference between designing a new house with efficiency in mind and buying an established house based on EER. Also you quote some research that says higher EER houses get higher prices, care to share the source of this research, or is it research done by Gungahlin Al?

The star rating system for residences is a joke.

When we bought our house 10 years ago it was rated 2 stars. When we recently sold our place the star rating had dropped to half a star. And that was after we put in better ceiling insulation and exterior and interior window treatments.

After questioning the company about the change, they said ‘software upgrades’. Apparently every time software (that is used to do the calculations) is upgraded, the previous star ratings become null and void.

And then it also comes down to how observant the inspector is.

The house we are moving to (built in 1985) apparently has a star rating of 4. I questioned it, our solicitor questioned it but the company that did the rating reckoned that because it was on a slab and it had wall insulation, that was good enought to get it to 4 stars! And this is with ceiling insulation of only R3…..

Check out the website for the ABC 7.30 ACT Friday nights program. They did a story on the uselessness of the star ratings system a few weeks ago.

Location, location, location, a heap of other factors and then maybe star ratings (to see what insulation the place has).

Gungahlin Al said :

It’s a critical factor for me. We designed our house to be as good as we could possibly afford, and having a toasty warm home that is easy to keep that way is simply wonderful.

Whether or not people would walk away from a low star place is one thing, but research has shown it means a substantial price difference that you’ll get.

Only reason I’d even consider a low-star place is if I was cranking up the dozer.

If I had some more money, I would’ve gone for location first and worried about EER later. However, I am grateful that the ACT brought in that EER5 minimum for new houses as it will mean I spend less on energy bills on my ‘affordable house’.

I hate how badly insulated the houses are here. Go to any other Western country with cold winters and most houses there are toasty warm. In my European country of birth there was a massive push to insulate houses in the 80s during the oil crisis. Significant subsidies for things like double glazing, etc. Most people there use a lot less energy for heating than we do here.

djk said :

I don’t think it is important at all.

I have never heard someone say “We found this perfect house, the wife loved it, the kids loved it, right near the school, blah, blah, blah, but the EER was only 2* so we walked straight out and kept looking.”

While it is certainly nice to know what it is and how it can be improved, it is really not a deciding factor for the vast majority.

While I can’t comment on the opinions of “the vast majority” I wouldn’t be so sure that star ratings are not an increasingly important factor in house selection for many prospective purchasers. It is often very expensive or impractical to get any significant increase in a low rated house. Also, I’ve found that people who feel that higher ratings are not that important, haven’t lived in a house with energy efficient passive heating and cooling principles. It doesn’t matter how much money you are prepared to throw at heating, cooling and insulation, nothing beats the comfort of even and consistent temperatures throughout a highly energy efficient house.

Gungahlin Al8:24 pm 21 Jul 11

It’s a critical factor for me. We designed our house to be as good as we could possibly afford, and having a toasty warm home that is easy to keep that way is simply wonderful.

Whether or not people would walk away from a low star place is one thing, but research has shown it means a substantial price difference that you’ll get.

Only reason I’d even consider a low-star place is if I was cranking up the dozer.

djk said :

While it is certainly nice to know what it is and how it can be improved, it is really not a deciding factor for the vast majority.

I would agree with that. It is one of the many factors you can use to decide if a house is right for you, and yes you can always improve the EER later if you want to/can afford to.

I don’t think it is important at all.

I have never heard someone say “We found this perfect house, the wife loved it, the kids loved it, right near the school, blah, blah, blah, but the EER was only 2* so we walked straight out and kept looking.”

While it is certainly nice to know what it is and how it can be improved, it is really not a deciding factor for the vast majority.

I would be very interested to find out how these ratings are allocated here? I cannot find any detail via Google or the ACTPLA website.

I think it does matter. I only bought in Casey because it was cheap but it is a comfort to know it’s 5 star EER will save me some money on gas and electricity (and AT LAST I’ll have continuous hot water – noone in Western Europe has used hot water tanks in decades!).

I think putting location twice before EER is still correct though. If you have enough money, you can always improve your EER later.

Actually, star rating was one of the first things I looked for when wandering around looking for somewhere to live down there.

One of my final (quarterly) electricity bills could have been the GDP of a small country – mind you, the other half had the ducted heating on pretty much 24/7 during Winter. Unfortunately, all the places I lived in had extremely low EERs so couldn’t really compare because I ran away interstate. Cackling with glee, I might add.

Daily Digest

Want the best Canberra news delivered daily? Every day we package the most popular Riotact stories and send them straight to your inbox. Sign-up now for trusted local news that will never be behind a paywall.

By submitting your email address you are agreeing to Region Group's terms and conditions and privacy policy.