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Male feminists: do they really exist?

Kim Huynh 7 August 2016 54

malcolm turnbull

Male feminism is arguably on the rise.

During the federal election campaign Malcolm Turnbull reaffirmed that he’s a feminist even though Julie Bishop thinks the label is “not useful”. The ultra-cool Canadian prime minister Justin Trudeau has promised to talk about his commitment to feminism until it’s regarded as normal and “there is no more reaction to it”.

Given Canberra’s progressive bent, egalitarian ethos, and relatively small gender pay gap, it’s a likely place to find male feminists.

Even so, it’s worth considering if being a male feminist is feasible or whether it’s like professing to be a white-Asian or gay-heterosexual. And if we accept that male feminists exist, how should these fellows express and enact their support for the sisterhood?

First, what not to do.

A big mistake is to profess to be a male feminist in a such a way that, “It’s all about me, the man”.

In this regard, offering the label as an icebreaker can suggest excessive eagerness and a staged sympathy: it’s as if you’re seeking a pat on the back or gold star for your sensitive new age stance.

People are also rightfully wary of men who seek personal advancement by flaunting their progressiveness.

I once had a discussion with a mate about whether we should put our time and experiences as stay-at-home parents on our CVs. Stay-at-home mothers are sometimes encouraged to highlight how their domestic engineering or home management skills are valuable to business and bureaucracy.

In a man’s case, however, the same act could be regarded as undue peacocking; that is, seeking kudos for doing what women have been doing for generations with little public recognition.

Another common mistake of male feminists is to overstate their experiences of oppression and capacity for empathy.

An analogous situation occurred when Treasurer Scott Morrison asserted that, sorta like Senator Penny Wong, he was the victim of “quite dreadful hate speech and bigotry” because of his opposition to marriage equality. The lesson here is that being criticised because of your beliefs and actions is not that same as being systematically discriminated against because of who you are.

A long time ago I suggested to a woman that, as an Asian man, I too had been unfairly stereotyped as an incapable driver. The comment was not received all that well, which taught me that different experiences of prejudice are not always equivalent.

How then can men show their support for feminism without co-opting or mansplaining it?

One tip is to focus on causes that have shared relevance and value such as promoting work-life balance, affordable child care and support for carers.

Male feminists should also be prominent in the fight against hyper-masculinity and misogyny.

In this regard, Malcolm Turnbull and Justin Trudeau have stressed the need for men to be exemplars to one another and to boys when it comes to respecting women. It’s also important for men to have a say in formulating an ethic of care that can disrupt and replace patriarchal structures.

It is in this context that we can better understand ally movements such as the white ribbon campaign to prevent male violence against women, and also Australian of the Year David Morrison’s efforts as a Male Champion of Change in promoting gender equality.

Even within these parameters, ‘male feminist’ is a vexed label.

In a New York Magazine article entitled, ‘So You Want to Be a Male Feminist? Maybe Don’t’, Kat Stoeffel argues that there are no exemptions even for well-intentioned men when it comes to patriarchy.

“Maybe you didn’t, personally, do anything wrong, but you were still born into a power structure that gave you unjust rewards…. You can’t opt out of the privileges you inherited at birth.”

As Ambassador for Tackling Violence, Raiders legend Alan Tongue acknowledges that many men think that they are not part of the problem, but stresses that all of us are part of the solution.

Are you a male feminist? Do you know self-proclaimed male feminists and how seriously do you take them? In what ways can blokes show their solidarity with sheilas?

Kim Huynh teaches international relations at the ANU. He has published a collection of (free) novellas entitled Vietnam as if…. Tales of youth, love and destiny (ANU Press).


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54 Responses to Male feminists: do they really exist?
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rommeldog56 2:29 pm 20 Jul 16

dungfungus said :

….. but would request that you cease to mansplain feminism to a feminist…..

Most young feminists disagree with the way that family courts default to the mother, even when the father could be the better caregiver. You know why? Because feminists want equality. Taking advantage of other people (including men) is not in the feminist code of ethics.

“mansplain”, really. What an insulting term. Way to go in getting others to see your point of view.

And as for divorce, property settlements, the family court and child support agency, funny how these so called “feminists” enforce a non equitable outcome because its in their favor.

madelini 1:10 pm 20 Jul 16

Blen_Carmichael said :

Maya123 said :

John Moulis said :

What’s the difference between choice and opportunity? Many men don’t get the choice or opportunity to look after their kids. Women get both the choice to abort or keep the kids and charge the guy child support, of which doesn’t count towards her income and doesn’t deduct off his?

In terms of starting a career, I found that I was heavy biased against when starting out in retail. Every other place just wanted female staff. Take a walk around the malls and retail shops and see how many of them are men.

Thus I was taught from a young age that I had to have a career and not a temp job. Women on the other hand have choices, its socially acceptable for a women to rely solely on a man for income. Yet a man who is unemployed would never be taken seriously as a date prospect.

The majority of those killed at work are men, those homeless are men, those expected to jump infront of bullets are men. Those most at risk of suicide and work related injuries.

I’m sure that the DV stats would be more even if the actual work was more even rather than the pay.

Choice is the result of opportunity. You can’t choose if you don’t have the option – in the same way that the marriage equality debate is not about marriage, it’s about being able to choose. Both women and men should have the opportunity to choose whether they work or are the primary caregiver at home; what they choose is irrelevant to having the chance to exercise their own agency.

In response to your “abortion choice” argument, a lot of women don’t get to choose if they fall pregnant or not. Also, it’s her body – I’m sure that if you had a womb, you would also like to have control over it, especially give the circumstances in which you can fall pregnant. Also, men can choose to reject a pregnancy after a certain point and opt out. It’s a little bit harder for women, especially after the 20 week stage. For the record, I don’t think the “radical third-wave feminists” you keep ranting about would be opposed to a review of the family court system. But hey, if you don’t want to make someone pregnant, or to fall pregnant, there are a lot of options to prevent it regardless of your gender.

You’re actually proving a point I made earlier. As a feminist, and a young woman, I would like to see equality across all industries, including retail and hospitality. Retail should be more open towards men. So should nursing. An increase in male early education teachers would be fantastic. Similarly, it would be wonderful to see more women in the science, tech and business fields, not to mention the trades. Feminism seeks equality; when it’s closer, perhaps it will be called equalism, but at the moment, the career struggle is stacked against women from the moment they try to pursue a career – which, believe it or not, is an expectation for women now; unemployment is a rare choice amongst women and all young people are encouraged to find their vocation instead of just working jobs.

All the points you raised are why we need feminism. We’re in a state of flux, but if enough people care, perhaps we will be seen as more than our chromosomal makeup. Surely that’s of benefit to both men and women?

That’s much more first and 2nd wave than 3rd wave. 3rd wave usually says there are no issues across both genders just that Men are in control and women are sub servant to men.

In terms of the abortion thing. I have no issues with women choosing to have an abortion (assuming its well before the birth of the child). However there is something wrong with putting a guy financially on the hook for a child that he may never to get to see given the mother might prevent it.

The best outcome financially is for women to get pregnant to one guy claim and move in with another to get a 2nd stream of income.

Would love to see more women in Tech, I think the critical age for women to get into tech is about 3-7 years old. The same age many women dump barbie dolls on their kids.

Its also a shame that’s its illegal to offer scholarships for males to become teachers, due to really stupid discrimination laws.

As a young feminist, I have a fair idea of current discussions about equality, and what current feminism seeks to achieve. I can’t make you change your opinions, but would request that you cease to mansplain feminism to a feminist. We do live in a patriarchal society; if you can’t see that, then that is because you have privileged from it. This is not your fault, but taking responsibility and seeking to better society for everyone will go a long way. It’s easy to feel victimised when you have benefitted from an ingrained social norm for your entire life, but it’s important to recognise that the system does not work for everyone.

You are wilfully choosing extreme arguments to prove your point. Current feminism seeks social equality. Currently, women are the ones who have to fight harder for equality of pay and opportunity in the workplace. What feminists want is the rights for women to have any career they choose and work towards; they don’t want hand outs, they want opportunity. The payoff is that men will also get the freedom to pursue careers of their choice – if that is retail, or opting to perform home duties, then feminism will work for them. Actively misinterpreting the push for equality does not mean that the definition is changed. Perhaps once men begin to actively work with women to achieve equality – which, shock! might actually require them to make room at the top! – workplace and scholarship quotas won’t need to exist. I don’t understand why you’re fighting this when the benefits for men are clear.

Most young feminists disagree with the way that family courts default to the mother, even when the father could be the better caregiver. You know why? Because feminists want equality. Taking advantage of other people (including men) is not in the feminist code of ethics.

devils_advocate 10:59 am 20 Jul 16

dungfungus said :

dungfungus said :

Reech said :

According to the Urban Dictionary (my authoritative source for emerging street jargon):
“cis
Short for “cisgender” (opposite of “transgender”), used to describe someone whose gender identity matches their anatomical gender at birth. Occasionally used derogatorily.”
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cis

So the term can be used in an offensive manner.

Now if someone with a hostile attitude called someone else a queer and then said;
“I don’t care if you find the term offensive, there is no offence inherent in the term or its meaning, so you will just have to go ahead and be offended”
such a dismissive and frankly contemptuous response would in itself be offensive.
If you still not convinced that use of ‘cis’ or ‘cisgendered’ is inappropriate, demeaning and offensive, whether or not intended, then here is a rather academic explanation as to why it is:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/j-nelson-aviance/i-am-not-cisgendered_b_5598113.html
So don’t use it.

Ok, that is a well thought out and well explained argument, I will credit that much.

Ultimately I do agree, but as long as cis gender people want to use the term gay or trans etc… then i will continue using cis to describe the rest. When society stops focusing on gender or sexual orientation altogether, I am happy to stop also. Meanwhile its a useful label, if I am going to be labelled as bisexual or queer by you, then I am going to label you as cis if I feel like it.

“I don’t care if you are offended by the term, I’m going to use it anyway because it’s convenient for me”. What a great example you’re setting. Did I say great? I mean hypocritical.

Proves that there’s insensitivity and arrogance on all sides of the gender/sexual identity divides. And isn’t that, after all, what true equality is about?

Mysteryman 9:54 am 19 Jul 16

dungfungus said :

Reech said :

According to the Urban Dictionary (my authoritative source for emerging street jargon):
“cis
Short for “cisgender” (opposite of “transgender”), used to describe someone whose gender identity matches their anatomical gender at birth. Occasionally used derogatorily.”
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cis

So the term can be used in an offensive manner.

Now if someone with a hostile attitude called someone else a queer and then said;
“I don’t care if you find the term offensive, there is no offence inherent in the term or its meaning, so you will just have to go ahead and be offended”
such a dismissive and frankly contemptuous response would in itself be offensive.
If you still not convinced that use of ‘cis’ or ‘cisgendered’ is inappropriate, demeaning and offensive, whether or not intended, then here is a rather academic explanation as to why it is:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/j-nelson-aviance/i-am-not-cisgendered_b_5598113.html
So don’t use it.

Ok, that is a well thought out and well explained argument, I will credit that much.

Ultimately I do agree, but as long as cis gender people want to use the term gay or trans etc… then i will continue using cis to describe the rest. When society stops focusing on gender or sexual orientation altogether, I am happy to stop also. Meanwhile its a useful label, if I am going to be labelled as bisexual or queer by you, then I am going to label you as cis if I feel like it.

“I don’t care if you are offended by the term, I’m going to use it anyway because it’s convenient for me”. What a great example you’re setting. Did I say great? I mean hypocritical.

HenryBG 2:13 pm 18 Jul 16

Blen_Carmichael said :

Would love to see more women in Tech, I think the critical age for women to get into tech is about 3-7 years old. The same age many women dump barbie dolls on their kids.

Parenting is certainly one influence over children’s choices and abilities, although it’s not the only one.

You’ll notice it’s easy to create artificial hiring policies (as the ABS has done) in order to skew hirings for management positions and deliver what the feminists call “gender equity”.

When it comes to jobs that require strictly defined skills (eg, technical, science and engineering), you discover that you can’t magically deliver a gender balance – it only works where standards are difficult to define, can be degraded without anybody noticing, or can just be ignored.

The reason that despite women now scoring close to 60% of university places, they still only represent less than 15% of undergraduate places in Science and Engineering can’t possibly only be about poor parenting.

gooterz 10:18 pm 14 Jul 16

Maya123 said :

John Moulis said :

What’s the difference between choice and opportunity? Many men don’t get the choice or opportunity to look after their kids. Women get both the choice to abort or keep the kids and charge the guy child support, of which doesn’t count towards her income and doesn’t deduct off his?

In terms of starting a career, I found that I was heavy biased against when starting out in retail. Every other place just wanted female staff. Take a walk around the malls and retail shops and see how many of them are men.

Thus I was taught from a young age that I had to have a career and not a temp job. Women on the other hand have choices, its socially acceptable for a women to rely solely on a man for income. Yet a man who is unemployed would never be taken seriously as a date prospect.

The majority of those killed at work are men, those homeless are men, those expected to jump infront of bullets are men. Those most at risk of suicide and work related injuries.

I’m sure that the DV stats would be more even if the actual work was more even rather than the pay.

Choice is the result of opportunity. You can’t choose if you don’t have the option – in the same way that the marriage equality debate is not about marriage, it’s about being able to choose. Both women and men should have the opportunity to choose whether they work or are the primary caregiver at home; what they choose is irrelevant to having the chance to exercise their own agency.

In response to your “abortion choice” argument, a lot of women don’t get to choose if they fall pregnant or not. Also, it’s her body – I’m sure that if you had a womb, you would also like to have control over it, especially give the circumstances in which you can fall pregnant. Also, men can choose to reject a pregnancy after a certain point and opt out. It’s a little bit harder for women, especially after the 20 week stage. For the record, I don’t think the “radical third-wave feminists” you keep ranting about would be opposed to a review of the family court system. But hey, if you don’t want to make someone pregnant, or to fall pregnant, there are a lot of options to prevent it regardless of your gender.

You’re actually proving a point I made earlier. As a feminist, and a young woman, I would like to see equality across all industries, including retail and hospitality. Retail should be more open towards men. So should nursing. An increase in male early education teachers would be fantastic. Similarly, it would be wonderful to see more women in the science, tech and business fields, not to mention the trades. Feminism seeks equality; when it’s closer, perhaps it will be called equalism, but at the moment, the career struggle is stacked against women from the moment they try to pursue a career – which, believe it or not, is an expectation for women now; unemployment is a rare choice amongst women and all young people are encouraged to find their vocation instead of just working jobs.

All the points you raised are why we need feminism. We’re in a state of flux, but if enough people care, perhaps we will be seen as more than our chromosomal makeup. Surely that’s of benefit to both men and women?

That’s much more first and 2nd wave than 3rd wave. 3rd wave usually says there are no issues across both genders just that Men are in control and women are sub servant to men.

In terms of the abortion thing. I have no issues with women choosing to have an abortion (assuming its well before the birth of the child). However there is something wrong with putting a guy financially on the hook for a child that he may never to get to see given the mother might prevent it.

The best outcome financially is for women to get pregnant to one guy claim and move in with another to get a 2nd stream of income.

Would love to see more women in Tech, I think the critical age for women to get into tech is about 3-7 years old. The same age many women dump barbie dolls on their kids.

Its also a shame that’s its illegal to offer scholarships for males to become teachers, due to really stupid discrimination laws.

gazket 9:44 pm 14 Jul 16

His next book
Male feminism by Peter FitzSimons

Mordd 6:31 pm 14 Jul 16

Reech said :

According to the Urban Dictionary (my authoritative source for emerging street jargon):
“cis
Short for “cisgender” (opposite of “transgender”), used to describe someone whose gender identity matches their anatomical gender at birth. Occasionally used derogatorily.”
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cis

So the term can be used in an offensive manner.

Now if someone with a hostile attitude called someone else a queer and then said;
“I don’t care if you find the term offensive, there is no offence inherent in the term or its meaning, so you will just have to go ahead and be offended”
such a dismissive and frankly contemptuous response would in itself be offensive.
If you still not convinced that use of ‘cis’ or ‘cisgendered’ is inappropriate, demeaning and offensive, whether or not intended, then here is a rather academic explanation as to why it is:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/j-nelson-aviance/i-am-not-cisgendered_b_5598113.html
So don’t use it.

Ok, that is a well thought out and well explained argument, I will credit that much.

Ultimately I do agree, but as long as cis gender people want to use the term gay or trans etc… then i will continue using cis to describe the rest. When society stops focusing on gender or sexual orientation altogether, I am happy to stop also. Meanwhile its a useful label, if I am going to be labelled as bisexual or queer by you, then I am going to label you as cis if I feel like it.

HenryBG 12:47 pm 14 Jul 16

Reech said :

If you still not convinced that use of ‘cis’ or ‘cisgendered’ is inappropriate, demeaning and offensive, whether or not intended, then here is a rather academic explanation as to why it is:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/j-nelson-aviance/i-am-not-cisgendered_b_5598113.html
So don’t use it.

These are the same kind of people who delighted in using the racial epithet “white bread” for several years. Notice nobody touches that one anymore.
This “cis” business is more of the same: people who have a deep-seated desire to discriminate and offend but know which groups are not allowed to be offended will home in on those who are still permitted to be the target for offence.
Madelini does it as well using the term “rape culture” – a meme that took off thanks to the influence of the nutter Andrea Dworkin and which is used to denigrate all persons on the basis of their sex.

HenryBG 12:07 pm 14 Jul 16

Maya123 said :

In response to your “abortion choice” argument, a lot of women don’t get to choose if they fall pregnant or not.

I haven’t seen the surveys indicating how many of the aborted babies have been given the “choice” of whether to continue living or to give it away for the convenience of their mother.

Maya123 said :

As a feminist, and a young woman, I would like to see equality across all industries, including retail and hospitality. Retail should be more open towards men. So should nursing. An increase in male early education teachers would be fantastic. Similarly, it would be wonderful to see more women in the science, tech and business fields, not to mention the trades. Feminism seeks equality;

Not really: Feminism seeks advantage for women, not equality.
Feminism doesn’t give a toss about female under-representation in the garbage collection or underground mining industries, but they make a lot of noise about how many more female SES officers they want.

Testfest 11:58 am 14 Jul 16

Impassive said :

For what it’s worth, I’m grateful for the comments and am now better informed about feminism, cis-ism and other things. I’ve been thinking a bit about whether I would say that I’m a male feminist, or perhaps in what context I would say it. Alas, I haven’t come up with a good answer yet. K.

Hi Kim, it’s a good question that I didn’t have a good answer for as well. Then I came across this response…

Are you defining “feminist” as someone who believes in gender equality?
Then yes, I am a feminist.

Or are you defining “feminist” as someone who believes that:
Australia is an oppressive patriarchy that perpetuates rape culture.
Gender is a cultural construct and anyone who says otherwise is a misogynist.
Sexist generalisations and insults are okay as long as they are directed at men.
Women can’t cope with criticism of ideas or people being mean on the internet.
Incivility, uncharitable readings and unjust smears are legitimate feminist activism.
People who say things we don’t like should be no-platformed and vilified.
Safe spaces and trigger warnings should be standard protection against ideas.
FGM, “honour” crimes and forced marriage are issues only brought up by racists.
“Emotional labour” and “cultural appropriation” are real problems we should address.

Then NO, I am not a feminist.

Acton 9:44 am 14 Jul 16

According to the Urban Dictionary (my authoritative source for emerging street jargon):
“cis
Short for “cisgender” (opposite of “transgender”), used to describe someone whose gender identity matches their anatomical gender at birth. Occasionally used derogatorily.”
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cis

So the term can be used in an offensive manner.

Now if someone with a hostile attitude called someone else a queer and then said;
“I don’t care if you find the term offensive, there is no offence inherent in the term or its meaning, so you will just have to go ahead and be offended”
such a dismissive and frankly contemptuous response would in itself be offensive.
If you still not convinced that use of ‘cis’ or ‘cisgendered’ is inappropriate, demeaning and offensive, whether or not intended, then here is a rather academic explanation as to why it is:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/j-nelson-aviance/i-am-not-cisgendered_b_5598113.html
So don’t use it.

madelini 9:38 am 14 Jul 16

John Moulis said :

What’s the difference between choice and opportunity? Many men don’t get the choice or opportunity to look after their kids. Women get both the choice to abort or keep the kids and charge the guy child support, of which doesn’t count towards her income and doesn’t deduct off his?

In terms of starting a career, I found that I was heavy biased against when starting out in retail. Every other place just wanted female staff. Take a walk around the malls and retail shops and see how many of them are men.

Thus I was taught from a young age that I had to have a career and not a temp job. Women on the other hand have choices, its socially acceptable for a women to rely solely on a man for income. Yet a man who is unemployed would never be taken seriously as a date prospect.

The majority of those killed at work are men, those homeless are men, those expected to jump infront of bullets are men. Those most at risk of suicide and work related injuries.

I’m sure that the DV stats would be more even if the actual work was more even rather than the pay.

Choice is the result of opportunity. You can’t choose if you don’t have the option – in the same way that the marriage equality debate is not about marriage, it’s about being able to choose. Both women and men should have the opportunity to choose whether they work or are the primary caregiver at home; what they choose is irrelevant to having the chance to exercise their own agency.

In response to your “abortion choice” argument, a lot of women don’t get to choose if they fall pregnant or not. Also, it’s her body – I’m sure that if you had a womb, you would also like to have control over it, especially give the circumstances in which you can fall pregnant. Also, men can choose to reject a pregnancy after a certain point and opt out. It’s a little bit harder for women, especially after the 20 week stage. For the record, I don’t think the “radical third-wave feminists” you keep ranting about would be opposed to a review of the family court system. But hey, if you don’t want to make someone pregnant, or to fall pregnant, there are a lot of options to prevent it regardless of your gender.

You’re actually proving a point I made earlier. As a feminist, and a young woman, I would like to see equality across all industries, including retail and hospitality. Retail should be more open towards men. So should nursing. An increase in male early education teachers would be fantastic. Similarly, it would be wonderful to see more women in the science, tech and business fields, not to mention the trades. Feminism seeks equality; when it’s closer, perhaps it will be called equalism, but at the moment, the career struggle is stacked against women from the moment they try to pursue a career – which, believe it or not, is an expectation for women now; unemployment is a rare choice amongst women and all young people are encouraged to find their vocation instead of just working jobs.

All the points you raised are why we need feminism. We’re in a state of flux, but if enough people care, perhaps we will be seen as more than our chromosomal makeup. Surely that’s of benefit to both men and women?

gooterz 11:46 pm 13 Jul 16

Amy Birchall said :

dungfungus said :

bj_ACT said :

Define Feminism?
Todays For-her-ism isn’t traditional Feminism.
Traditional Feminists would roll over at the thought of what many ‘Feminists’ do today.

agreed. Feminism has become the antithesis of what it was originally meant to do. Certainly has nothing to do with equality of genders thats for sure.

I’m sorry, but do you have any examples of how contemporary feminism is the antithesis of what it was “originally”, or “traditionally”? What do they do today that is so radically departed from the good old days?

Until women have equality in the work and home spaces, and until the go-to jokes about them are not sexualised, until they stop being patronised in the public sphere, we still need feminism. Feminism is a broad social movement that aims for equality – when we’re closer to achieving that, maybe the name will change to ‘equalist’, or similar. This goes for men as well. Men should have the freedom to choose to be a stay at home parent without ridicule, as should women. There do not need to be jokes about “who wears the pants” in relationships. Until we’re closer to social and economic equality, we still need feminism.

There are three waves to feminism.
Equality is an overused and abused term. Equality is giving everyone the same and letting them achieve different things based on how well they can do it.

Should we have tax equality? Everyone pays the same dollar amount in taxes irrespective of what they earn?

How do you see women getting equality in the home? Are you going to put quotas on the family court to ensure children are on average 50% with mum and 50% with dad?

A traditional feminist would have huge problems with current domestic violence campaigns which paint women as weak and powerless individuals whom are incapable of violence or helping themselves.

etc.

Equality in social terms is about opportunity, not about choice. In domestic terms, it is about sharing the load. Statistics consistently show that women complete the majority of household tasks (including cooking and cleaning), take more days off to care for unwell children, begin their working life earning (on average) $5000 less than men. The semantics can be argued, but at the end of the day, the statistics are consistently reflecting an imbalance.

When it comes to the workplace, perhaps if more men felt the inclination to take paternity leave rather than the expectation falling on women, the wage gap would decrease as people made decisions that were the best for them and their families. In the home, I envisage equality as both men and women chipping in for their fair share of responsibilities – including time spent with children. What’s so wrong with wanting that?

There is a disproportionate amount of female victims when it comes to domestic violence. There is a disproportionate amount of male perpetrators when it comes to violence, both domestic and public. Women are not being painted as “weak and powerless”; in very real terms, they are the victims of men who feel the need to assert themselves physically, and they are dying. Traditional feminists would be appalled with the fact that more than one woman a week is killed by a man she knows intimately.

Also, humanism was a Renaissance philosophy that recognised the agency of human beings outside of religion. It has nothing to do with feminism, second-wave or otherwise.

What’s the difference between choice and opportunity? Many men don’t get the choice or opportunity to look after their kids. Women get both the choice to abort or keep the kids and charge the guy child support, of which doesn’t count towards her income and doesn’t deduct off his?

In terms of starting a career, I found that I was heavy biased against when starting out in retail. Every other place just wanted female staff. Take a walk around the malls and retail shops and see how many of them are men.

Thus I was taught from a young age that I had to have a career and not a temp job. Women on the other hand have choices, its socially acceptable for a women to rely solely on a man for income. Yet a man who is unemployed would never be taken seriously as a date prospect.

The majority of those killed at work are men, those homeless are men, those expected to jump infront of bullets are men. Those most at risk of suicide and work related injuries.

I’m sure that the DV stats would be more even if the actual work was more even rather than the pay.

madelini 10:38 am 13 Jul 16

dungfungus said :

bj_ACT said :

Define Feminism?
Todays For-her-ism isn’t traditional Feminism.
Traditional Feminists would roll over at the thought of what many ‘Feminists’ do today.

agreed. Feminism has become the antithesis of what it was originally meant to do. Certainly has nothing to do with equality of genders thats for sure.

I’m sorry, but do you have any examples of how contemporary feminism is the antithesis of what it was “originally”, or “traditionally”? What do they do today that is so radically departed from the good old days?

Until women have equality in the work and home spaces, and until the go-to jokes about them are not sexualised, until they stop being patronised in the public sphere, we still need feminism. Feminism is a broad social movement that aims for equality – when we’re closer to achieving that, maybe the name will change to ‘equalist’, or similar. This goes for men as well. Men should have the freedom to choose to be a stay at home parent without ridicule, as should women. There do not need to be jokes about “who wears the pants” in relationships. Until we’re closer to social and economic equality, we still need feminism.

There are three waves to feminism.
Equality is an overused and abused term. Equality is giving everyone the same and letting them achieve different things based on how well they can do it.

Should we have tax equality? Everyone pays the same dollar amount in taxes irrespective of what they earn?

How do you see women getting equality in the home? Are you going to put quotas on the family court to ensure children are on average 50% with mum and 50% with dad?

A traditional feminist would have huge problems with current domestic violence campaigns which paint women as weak and powerless individuals whom are incapable of violence or helping themselves.

etc.

Equality in social terms is about opportunity, not about choice. In domestic terms, it is about sharing the load. Statistics consistently show that women complete the majority of household tasks (including cooking and cleaning), take more days off to care for unwell children, begin their working life earning (on average) $5000 less than men. The semantics can be argued, but at the end of the day, the statistics are consistently reflecting an imbalance.

When it comes to the workplace, perhaps if more men felt the inclination to take paternity leave rather than the expectation falling on women, the wage gap would decrease as people made decisions that were the best for them and their families. In the home, I envisage equality as both men and women chipping in for their fair share of responsibilities – including time spent with children. What’s so wrong with wanting that?

There is a disproportionate amount of female victims when it comes to domestic violence. There is a disproportionate amount of male perpetrators when it comes to violence, both domestic and public. Women are not being painted as “weak and powerless”; in very real terms, they are the victims of men who feel the need to assert themselves physically, and they are dying. Traditional feminists would be appalled with the fact that more than one woman a week is killed by a man she knows intimately.

Also, humanism was a Renaissance philosophy that recognised the agency of human beings outside of religion. It has nothing to do with feminism, second-wave or otherwise.

gooterz 7:52 pm 12 Jul 16

Impassive said :

For what it’s worth, I’m grateful for the comments and am now better informed about feminism, cis-ism and other things. I’ve been thinking a bit about whether I would say that I’m a male feminist, or perhaps in what context I would say it. Alas, I haven’t come up with a good answer yet. K.

‘Feminist’ is too confusing.. You might be pro-woman, humanist, or just not caring or a bit of each.
Either than pick first 2nd 3rd, 3rd wave radical feminist.

Kim Huynh 4:42 pm 12 Jul 16

For what it’s worth, I’m grateful for the comments and am now better informed about feminism, cis-ism and other things. I’ve been thinking a bit about whether I would say that I’m a male feminist, or perhaps in what context I would say it. Alas, I haven’t come up with a good answer yet. K.

Here_and_Now 3:19 pm 12 Jul 16

TimboinOz said :

Ok – thanks. Interesting. Used to be called “straight” I supposed.

Ah. No. “Straight” was (and as far as I know, still is), heterosexual. Women attracted only to men and vice-versa. Whole separate question from whether you’re cis, trans, etc.

rommeldog56 9:49 am 12 Jul 16

TimboinOz said :

Ezy said :

JoueurBoy said :

rommeldog56 said :

… at the hands of cis men…

We find that term offensive. You should refer to us as “straight males”.

Like, what does ” Cis ” stand for anyway ????

I looked it up, and found this:

In Latin, the prefix “cis” means “on the same side” and “trans” means “on the other side”. So, a cis person is one whose assigned sex at birth is on the same side as the sex they are. Likewise, a trans person is one whose assigned sex at birth is on a different side from the sex they are.

from https://www.whatdoescismean.com/whatdoescismean/

Ok – thanks. Interesting. Used to be called “straight” I supposed.

I just gotta get with this new age, new fangled trend to put a label on everything.

Charlotte Harper 9:40 am 12 Jul 16

Ezy said :

JoueurBoy said :

rommeldog56 said :

… at the hands of cis men…

We find that term offensive. You should refer to us as “straight males”.

Like, what does ” Cis ” stand for anyway ????

I looked it up, and found this:

In Latin, the prefix “cis” means “on the same side” and “trans” means “on the other side”. So, a cis person is one whose assigned sex at birth is on the same side as the sex they are. Likewise, a trans person is one whose assigned sex at birth is on a different side from the sex they are.

from https://www.whatdoescismean.com/whatdoescismean/

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