26 October 2010

Mediocrity, thy name is school

| beejay76
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back to school

I would have thought, with an Honours degree under my belt, and having started a PhD, that there would be nothing for me to learn from kindergarten.

My eldest daughter started school this year, you see. Surely, with all that education, kindergarten in Canberra could offer me nothing more.

Well, it turns out not to be strictly the case. Sure, the reading, writing and arithmetic I’ve pretty much got in the bag, and the art and craft I can probably manage. It’s the philosophy I’m struggling with.

I would have thought that equality would be fairly high on the “values” agenda. The school certainly teaches a policy of a “fair go”, but it doesn’t seem to practice it’s preachings. Let me elucidate.

My daughter is gifted. She’s not the next Einstein and probably won’t cure cancer. She is, however, extremely bright. I’m astonished that the modern education system is at a loss as to how to deal with gifted kids.

Schools have come a long way with regard to learning support. Kids who are struggling, whether with disabilities or for other reasons have a swag of services at their disposal to help them get up to scratch. Parents have been the driver of this, of course, demanding services where once there were none.

However, although it’s taken as read that a child with an IQ two standard deviations below the mean needs special education, there’s absolutely no recognition whatsoever that the same might apply to a child with an IQ two standard deviations above. I find this grossly unfair.

Surely all children should have access to an education that is interesting, informative, engaging and appropriate? Average kids slot straight in. Below average have help. Why should the above-average be left out? This is hardly a “fair go”.

There is no real gifted program. They started an extension program in Term 2. It was 40 minutes twice a week. I thought that was pretty minimal, given that my daughter was bored in class for six hours a day five days a week. But after one term it dropped back to one day, as the teacher was ‘busy with other duties’.

I don’t know if it’s even happening this term. Imagine the furore if this was a learning support unit! Why should the gifted kids be getting this raw deal?

I think there are a few reasons. Firstly is that some people are unwilling to even admit gifted people exist. This is patently ridiculous. Intelligence, however you measure it, falls on a standard normal curve. The overwhelming majority within a certain band, with small numbers above and below. Those above are the gifted and the challenged. To deny it is just plain silly. I don’t think anyone would deny the existence of those with a developmental disability.

I suspect another reason is the ranking of schools. They may be highly motivated to get the underperforming students up to par, but those high-achievers? They are already cruising.

But I think the big one is our celebration of the academic mediocre. We’ve always had this tall poppy thing going on, but it’s getting out of hand. My daughter, and others like her, have never received any recognition of their outstanding academic achievements. The school simply ignores it. However, those who achieve at sport, chess or any non-academic activity are publicly lauded. They have swags of certificates every fortnight handed out to children (including my own) for things like “displaying caring”, or “recycling”. But as far as I know, none has ever received a certificate for academic excellence.

While I think sport, chess, caring and recycling are important, so is learning. In case we’ve forgotten, that’s what schools are actually for.

Celebrating a range of achievement is important. Supporting those with a disability is important. Recognising that we’re not all good at the same things is important. But also, recognising that some people achieve academically is important. Are we really so scared to recognise academic excellence that we risk stamping it out?

So this is what I have learned from kindergarten, 2010: achieve only where it’s popular to do so.

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Woody Mann-Caruso3:18 pm 04 Nov 10

I taunted them a second time.

When will you start flinging cattle? 😉

Holden Caulfield2:20 pm 04 Nov 10

colourful sydney racing identity said :

cleo said :

3jane and me no fry

Are you both think or what, of course a criminal lawyer defends criminals durrrrrrr

This post is funny for so many reasons.

Yep, probably explains why the grandchild is considered to be so gifted.

colourful sydney racing identity1:57 pm 04 Nov 10

Me no fry said :

cleo said :

3jane and me no fry

Are you both think or what, of course a criminal lawyer defends criminals durrrrrrr

As think as a plack?

Somebody remove your humour chip?

No it’s standard operating procedure for her.

cleo said :

3jane and me no fry

Are you both think or what, of course a criminal lawyer defends criminals durrrrrrr

As think as a plack?

Somebody remove your humour chip?

shadow boxer12:22 pm 04 Nov 10

Well I did but then people started calling me names so I taunted them a second time.

😉

Woody Mann-Caruso11:14 am 04 Nov 10

So much for ‘Yeh, alright, i’ll let it go’.

colourful sydney racing identity9:54 am 04 Nov 10

cleo said :

3jane and me no fry

Are you both think or what, of course a criminal lawyer defends criminals durrrrrrr

This post is funny for so many reasons.

shadow boxer8:02 am 04 Nov 10

I have already answered the question several times on why I don’t become a teacher, it doesn’t pay enough to meet my lifestyle requirements. I think we have general agreement on that. The problem is it never will while it remains a part time occupation.

I have never said kids should be in school 48 weeks but I have said a summer school type system for academic excellence and remedial catch up is accepted best practice in the worlds best education systems. The down time could also cater for non-core activities like school camps, athletic carnivals, school plays, sports camps etc that curently eat into the 10 week block. It is also an opportunity for teachers to develop and plan, who knows a bit more of that and maybe your job would be a bit les stressful.

While I dont have a lot of time for the current crop of 21-27 year olds who seem to just want to know where their next pinger, tattoo or vodka is coming from my experience with the current crop of year 7 to 10’s is that they are an absolute delight, (articulate, well rounded, respectful to adults, keen to learn and possessing excellent bullshit detectors) I imagine they would be an absolute pleasure to teach so some of the attitudes on here are a bit dissapointing.

georgesgenitals6:36 am 04 Nov 10

Jim Jones said :

Really, what is this pissing contest that people get into about this sort of crap. You have to be very very stupid to think that spending every waking hour working is a really good thing that makes people deserving of special respect.

I suspect many people think their job is stressful at times (and it could well be), and having someone who works in a different profession to you telling you that your job is easy and cruisy is taken as offensive. The reactions you see here are quite natural.

I’ll offer an alternative. I work a busy professional job, and get paid quite a lot more than most. I often work 10 hour days, and put up with stress. It’s also my choice to work that job, and I’ve spent many years learning it, and working to get better at it. If I didn’t want to do it anymore, I could get a job I perceive as easier.

Frankly, if people find their job incredibly stressful, they should change jobs. This town has so many options – it just takes a bit of initiative.

3jane and me no fry

Are you both think or what, of course a criminal lawyer defends criminals durrrrrrr

Hells_Bells747:08 pm 03 Nov 10

** the kids need to man up that is, not the teachers 🙂

Hells_Bells747:02 pm 03 Nov 10

Yeah, someone way back asked “what would the teachers do in the holidays” or something similiar. How about teach kids. It’s not like the kids get quality time having 10 weeks off a year when half their parents have to work anyhow or even with stay home parents, it’s just a time for more expense and entertainment.

Oh I would dearly love no more than 6 weeks of school holidays as a mother. They get a lot of long weekends too and quite frankly, they need to man up! Life is much tougher than that.

/rant

boxie said :

@shadowboxer Have you ever been a school teacher? If you have why aren’t you now? Have you ever worked in the environment? Until you have how dare you have the gall to suggest that my stand down is a rort. If I didn’t have that time off I would not be able to teach. It’s an incredibly stressful job, and I teach at one of the “better schools”.

I wish people would stop basing their opinions of what teachers do on their experience of school rather than any teaching experience. Spend a week in my shoes and you’ll see both the joys of the job, but also the difficulties of it.

I’m a consultant working 12-15 hour days helping the government buy billions of dollar worth of stuff. That’s really stressful too except for the 4 weeks I get for holidays. However, I still bow to those in the military and emergency services who face all sorts of trauma each and every day and who also only get 4 weeks leave a year.

I went out with a teacher for 5 years and never once say this ‘stress’ or long hours of which you speak. I did see a lot of questionable behaviors by her and her colleagues towards students and guess what, she’s now a Principle.

However, if life for teachers has become so tough for you and your colleagues, boxie, maybe student teachers should be psychologically tested as part of their education degree to see if they can handle the ‘extreme pressures’ of a classroom.

I like how the argument about pay is premised around this masochistic idea that you really have to suffer in order to ‘deserve’ a decent wage, regardless of your actual contribution to society.

“I work a 400-hour week and don’t get toilet breaks, the only time I ever stop toiling is to hammer nails into my testicles (I pay for the nails myself). I’ve never ever had a holiday and I wasn’t allowed time off to attend the funeral of my wife and child – who I’d actually never met because I just work … so … damn … hard.”

Really, what is this pissing contest that people get into about this sort of crap. You have to be very very stupid to think that spending every waking hour working is a really good thing that makes people deserving of special respect.

@shadowboxer If it’s sooo easy and such a bludge get in the game then, become a teacher or can’t you do it? Is it beneath you? Can’t you deal with kids? Is it tooo much of a pay cut? Don’t tell me how to do my job until you’ve done it. Do you really think you’re kids can do 48 weeks at school?

@vg that’s why you as a police officer get that extra time off work, that eight weeks of standard leave.

Oscillate Wildly6:17 pm 03 Nov 10

If people are so jealous of the 6-8 weeks holidays and cushy conditions, why aren’t more of you signing up to become teachers???

“It’s an incredibly stressful job, and I teach at one of the “better schools”.

How about having a gun pointed at you, and/or a knife? I’ll see your ‘stress’ and raise you 100

shadow boxer4:39 pm 03 Nov 10

How dare someone have the gall to post a meaningless opinion on an anonymous internet forum, that’s funny.

Aren’t you just reinforcing my point, the idea that, in this day and age, a years worth of education can be squashed into 40 weeks is ridiculous. Far better outcomes would be achieved for all parties if we did it differently. Take a step back and surely you can see that.

I know the parents would prefer it and I’m sorry but I just don’t buy the argument that teachers are the hardest working and only people in our community that work hard enough to deserve 6-8 weeks of additional paid leave a year.

@shadowboxer Have you ever been a school teacher? If you have why aren’t you now? Have you ever worked in the environment? Until you have how dare you have the gall to suggest that my stand down is a rort. If I didn’t have that time off I would not be able to teach. It’s an incredibly stressful job, and I teach at one of the “better schools”.

I wish people would stop basing their opinions of what teachers do on their experience of school rather than any teaching experience. Spend a week in my shoes and you’ll see both the joys of the job, but also the difficulties of it.

shadow boxer8:23 am 02 Nov 10

dude, your post is like the Internet equivalent of calling someone a stupid head and then running around with your fingers in your ears so you don’t have to hear the response.

In this thread and the other one I have articulated a logical proposal on why having teachers work through the school holidays would produce better outcomes for all parties (teachers, parents and kids). Some of the things that could be done during these times include extension learning, remedial learning, extra-curricualr learning, lesson planning, cross training, school camps, resource development, individual student needs and requirement analysis, faculty team building etc.

I have also stated that if that was the case I believe the status of teachers would be considerably improved within the general community and a salary the equivalent of the top increment of an EL-1 (about 100k) would then be appropriate for a year 9 or 10 teacher with 4-5 years experience.

The only counter views that have been presented have come directly from teachers and make two points that both assume there is nothing wrong with the current system.

a. the extra leave is a perk of the job and i’m taking it; and
b. I work really hard and need this time to rest.

If by small minded you mean;

Adjectivesmall-minded (comparative smaller-minded or more small-minded, superlative smallest-minded or most small-minded)

1.Selfish, petty, constrained in thought, limited in scope of consideration.
2.Not interested (or capable) of thinking about the big picture.

I’ll let others judge.

BTW I asked my friend how work was going at the club on Friday, He said he’d had a good day because he had spent the afternoon with his kids watching “how to train a dragon” on the smart board. I suggested he might need some serious R&R in Saigon to recover but he didn’t get the joke.

shadow boxer said :

Jethro said :

shadow boxer said :

They could get the teachers to run the kindergarten extension programs during the school holidays.

I’ll see myself out

Most high schools will have some form of gifted and talented progrmame. Very often teachers volunteer to provide support in this area – often after school or on weekends. Yet another reason why school ‘holidays’ should be viewed more as flex time than extra, unwarranted holidays.
Do we really need to have this conversation again?

Aparently so, name me a school that runs talented extension programs every weekend.

Seriously Jethro, the fact that teachers occasionally work until 5 or 6 o’clock like the rest of us does not entitle you to all that extra leave. Particulalry at the kindergarten level where there is no homework and teaching purposeful play and spelling has remained pretty well unchanged for some time now.

Almost everybody in a responsible professional job is working 50-60 hours a week these days. Unlike my friend who teaches primary school and is invariably at the club betting on the horses by 3:45 every Friday.

It is quite obvious that you view teachers with little more than contempt. Good for you. I pity your children’s teachers. Since all of your children attend private schools I will assume you treat the teachers like little more than overpaid servants. That was how many parents chose to treat me when I worked in the private system – it was very clear they saw teachers as little more than glorified babysitters.
I get paid for a 38 hour week. I work a good deal more than that. I do not have access to flex time and the time I spend at work is completely hectic – physically, mentally and emotionally draining. The extra time off is one small bonus in a job that has very little in the way of extrinsic rewards.
You work 50+ hour weeks and get remarkably more compensation than a teacher.
Your teacher friends clearly do not belong in the profession if that is how they treat their job.
I am now disengaging from this conversation and will not enter into any more debate with you on this topic. Small minds are very hard to change.

Were you one of the bullies?

DeadlySchnauzer3:03 pm 29 Oct 10

CraigT said :

The defensiveness in these comments is testament to the treatment that the gifted receive from their mediocre peers from kindergarten onwards: jealousy, bullying, and vitriolic rejection.

One of my children has astounding mental capabilities.

I stopped reading at this point and assumed this was a joke post.

shadow boxer2:27 pm 29 Oct 10

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

Did a bad teacher man touch your special area, shadow boxer? You sure seem to go on about them – and I know a thing or two about going on about stuff.

Yeh, alright, i’ll let it go

shadow boxer2:23 pm 29 Oct 10

No it’s 3:45, I meet him there,

😉

Woody Mann-Caruso2:19 pm 29 Oct 10

Did a bad teacher man touch your special area, shadow boxer? You sure seem to go on about them – and I know a thing or two about going on about stuff.

Kerryhemsley2:00 pm 29 Oct 10

shadow boxer said :

lol, no ammunition so back to the insults. You got owned

What was that about?

Are you sure it is 3.45 at the club on Fridays?

Not a bit earlier?

shadow boxer12:59 pm 29 Oct 10

lol, no ammunition so back to the insults. You got owned

Kerryhemsley12:15 pm 29 Oct 10

shadow boxer said :

No, he does it every Friday.

Yeah I know someone who bangs on all the time about putting his kids in a private school.

Absolute tosser.

Holden Caulfield11:56 am 29 Oct 10

shadow boxer said :

No, he does it every Friday.

Wow, we must stone all teachers! I wonder how many public servants skive off early on a Friday using their “flex” time. Let’s stone all public servants too!

Even if they didn’t say Jehovah!

shadow boxer11:23 am 29 Oct 10

No, he does it every Friday.

shadow boxer said :

Particulalry at the kindergarten level where there is no homework and teaching purposeful play and spelling has remained pretty well unchanged for some time now.

Almost everybody in a responsible professional job is working 50-60 hours a week these days. Unlike my friend who teaches primary school and is invariably at the club betting on the horses by 3:45 every Friday.

Shadow boxer, sorry but you haven’t got a clue. There *is* homework at kindergarten level, the function of which is not as black and white as you might think.

Also, almost everybody gets away from work at 3.30pm some days. This doesn’t mean that teachers don’t have to come in early other days for playground duty or to prepare lessons, or stay late to attend meetings, come in at night to supervise discos, or spend whole days on the weekend in training. This is on top of standard hours which require a lot of energy.

I owe a debt of gratitude to my daughter’s beloved teacher, who taught her to read and write in the first 6 months of school.

I apologise in advance for not reading any of the probably colorful comments to this article before saying this, but I’m sorry, your entire article is jaded by the fact that your daughter is in KINDERGARTEN, so you come across as just a BIT crazy. For instance:

“They have swags of certificates every fortnight handed out to children (including my own) for things like “displaying caring”, or “recycling”. But as far as I know, none has ever received a certificate for academic excellence.”

Well yeah, that’s because if a child can add one and one together and read a few sentences, they’re grasping the basics. Unless your daughter is using Pythagoras’ theorem to solve how to most efficiently expand the sand pit into 2012, she probably hasn’t “excelled” academically, mainly because she’s *5 years old* – kindergarten is hardly “academic study”, just incase you didn’t pick that up. Don’t mean to attack you personally or anything, I’m just saying that although your post has many valid points within the broad topic of Education, it has almost no validity when in reference to Kindergarteners.

I disagree with the homeschooling option … you’ll end up spending time with the other irrational freaks who homeschool their children.

Other than in rural situations where home schooling is the only choice, I have only EVER met two good home schooling examples, and that was for very specific set of circumstances for a couple of years. It worked because, in each case, one of the parents was a teacher and knew exactly what was needed to get the kids to where they needed to be, and they were willing to put in the massive effort needed.

One case was developmental delay, the other was extreme giftedness.

shadow boxer9:43 am 29 Oct 10

Jethro said :

shadow boxer said :

They could get the teachers to run the kindergarten extension programs during the school holidays.

I’ll see myself out

Most high schools will have some form of gifted and talented progrmame. Very often teachers volunteer to provide support in this area – often after school or on weekends. Yet another reason why school ‘holidays’ should be viewed more as flex time than extra, unwarranted holidays.
Do we really need to have this conversation again?

Aparently so, name me a school that runs talented extension programs every weekend.

Seriously Jethro, the fact that teachers occasionally work until 5 or 6 o’clock like the rest of us does not entitle you to all that extra leave. Particulalry at the kindergarten level where there is no homework and teaching purposeful play and spelling has remained pretty well unchanged for some time now.

Almost everybody in a responsible professional job is working 50-60 hours a week these days. Unlike my friend who teaches primary school and is invariably at the club betting on the horses by 3:45 every Friday.

3Jane said :

I’m not going to say it…

OK, then I will. Criminal lawyer – is there any other kind?

I’m not going to say it…

Deadly Schnauzer # 107

Yes intelligent students can be bored at school, as I had a cousin, he was expelled from a few schools, when he left school the principal told him he would never amount to anything, well I afraid he had to eat his words, my cousin is a criminal lawyer, they had a school reunion, of course he went up and said to the principal remember when you said blah blah, well I’m a criminal lawyer. He enjoyed that, so don’t listen to these know alls.

deezagood # 100

I didn’t say that, I said I believe, and have the proof of all his achievements, starting from kindergarten, which he started a year earlier, as it was recommended he start school by the pre-school itself, as he is very advanced, he won a literature award in 1st grade, on the environment, he only asked his parents three spelling words, this was a three page essay, he has won many many awards, he also got the principal award. So I am not biased, I’m so blessed, he is also sensitive. My grandson could beat adults at chess (university educated adults), and played against other students from other schools, of course he beat the best, and by the way he attends high school at Rosebay, he is an excellent football player, he made the Harold Matthew team for under 16, he has plenty to do in Sydney , he especially likes surfing and boarding.

My son is a bit aspergery, has a photographic memory, is obsessive compulsive, and really really academic. We were just coping with his ordinary run of the mill school until he hit year 3 when he got a teacher who he found BORING. We had tantrums after school. We had tears before school. We approached the teacher about her giving him some extension work. She remained impassively BORING. It got to the stage where he refused to go on the school bus. Out of desperation I tried Kaleen Public School, which I had heard had an extension/gifted class. The principal, Grace Dunlop, took one look at my son with his weird ways and his portfolio of letterbox drawings and said YUP he’s in. We’ve never looked back. From there he went on to LEAP in Lyneham High School – another gifted program. All I can say is these programs really benefited my son by giving him stimulation and company in the form of other odd/bright kids.

The defensiveness in these comments is testament to the treatment that the gifted receive from their mediocre peers from kindergarten onwards: jealousy, bullying, and vitriolic rejection.

One of my children has astounding mental capabilities. Having had my own experience of the education system’s retarded employees’ overt rejection of the (slightly) above-average clever, I have told her to take what she can from her schooling without expecting too much and to accept that adults are often wrong and that correcting them is an exercise in self-destructive futility.

She therefore treats school as an exercise in social interaction and experience and busies herself with stimulating her mind on her own time at home.

Perhaps the OP can convince her daughter to use school in a similar way?

*Your* attitude is incredibly important in all this: if you denigrate school (much as it is worthy of denigration) you’re not doing anybody any favours.

I disagree with the homeschooling option for the two obvious reasons: uses up your time; handicaps her socialisation. And a third reason: you’ll end up spending time with the other irrational freaks who homeschool their children.

shadow boxer said :

They could get the teachers to run the kindergarten extension programs during the school holidays.

I’ll see myself out

Most high schools will have some form of gifted and talented progrmame. Very often teachers volunteer to provide support in this area – often after school or on weekends. Yet another reason why school ‘holidays’ should be viewed more as flex time than extra, unwarranted holidays.
Do we really need to have this conversation again?

… albeit one that can’t quote properly, obviously.

DeadlySchnauzer said :

Actually I just had a shocking revelation… I TOO WAS BORED AT PRIMARY SCHOOL!!! In fact come to think of it, most of my friends were also BORED AT PRIMARY SCHOOL, and wait for it, we were also BORED AT HIGH SCHOOL!!!

Yeah, I was sooooo bored at high school I must be some kinda freakin’ genius.

BerraBoy68 said :

What a weird OP!

I have kids in year 1 and year 2 and while they have both been assessed as top of their class in reading and math, I’m more keen to make sure they interact with their peers and enjoy school so that they stick with it instead of becoming so elitist or competitive that it drives them to drop out later on.

+1 (for the rest of the post as well)

DeadlySchnauzer said :

Actually I just had a shocking revelation… I TOO WAS BORED AT PRIMARY SCHOOL!!! In fact come to think of it, most of my friends were also BORED AT PRIMARY SCHOOL, and wait for it, we were also BORED AT HIGH SCHOOL!!! This clearly shows that (a) There are far more gifted children out there than the OP thought, and (b) our school system is failing miserably to deal with this glut of giftedness.

You’re mixing necessary and sufficient conditions.

DeadlySchnauzer12:50 pm 27 Oct 10

Actually I just had a shocking revelation… I TOO WAS BORED AT PRIMARY SCHOOL!!! In fact come to think of it, most of my friends were also BORED AT PRIMARY SCHOOL, and wait for it, we were also BORED AT HIGH SCHOOL!!! This clearly shows that (a) There are far more gifted children out there than the OP thought, and (b) our school system is failing miserably to deal with this glut of giftedness.

Hi Woody,

Alas! I don’t have time to debate today. Thanks heaps for what has been a very entertaining thread! Perhaps we can lock horns on another issue soon. Actually, I’d still be interested to know what the go is with the black cars… 😀

Holden Caulfield10:05 am 27 Oct 10

This thread is “gifted”.

Woody Mann-Caruso9:27 am 27 Oct 10

I think we’re actually agreeing with each other here

Oh, but you twist and turn like a twisty turny thing. We don’t agree at all. We don’t agree on what constitutes ‘achievement’, for starters, and your persistent use of words like ‘genuine’ shows how far we differ. You gifted child can pass her various school tests – tests of a curriculum you note she finds tedious – and you want an award? May as well reward her for tying up her shoes – they sound similarly difficult for her. But some other kid who looks out for for somebody else not only doesn’t deserve a reward, but they deserve an eye roll?

my main concern in this post is about the anti-intellectualism of schools

If you’re at a school that doesn’t reward academic achievement with tokens or public displays, be very, very happy. They’re leaving your daughter’s natural instincts to do well because she _wants_ to do well intact. Her achievements may happen to match up with some external rubric, but that’s not why she does it,a nd if you tie one to the other you’ll destroy hero ne piece at a time. If you think intellectualism needs trinkets and rituals to flourish, you’re mistaken.

Kids find mastering their world its own reward. Your daughter doesn’t need more attention, or special classes. She needs more scope to do her own thing her own way. You say you’d like to be able to send her to a Montessori school, but that schooling approach is precisely the opposite of what you desire: self-directed exploratory activities, deliberate efforts not to reward improvement or success – just a quiet and simple ‘Thank you, [name]. Please put the [x] back on the shelf.’

Ask yourself – have you ever been motivated to do better because of some kind of reward at work? Ever seen an effective performance bonus system that’s lasted more than a single cycle? Contrast this to times when you’ve been given some sort of discretion or control over a project, freedom to design it, to steer it. Why do you want the former bullsh*t arrangements for your daughter and not the latter?

Or maybe find a school with a methodology you agree with?

la mente torbida9:23 am 27 Oct 10

Wooo Hooo! This is way more fun than the cycling/driving threads

Hi Woody! Glad to see you back!

As I’ve already mentioned, the opening statement was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. I appreciate that I didn’t pull it off. I didn’t really hit the tone I was looking for in the original post! I don’t think it read on the page exactly the way it read in my head, and I realise people are a little offended. Sorry about that.

I think we’re actually agreeing with each other here. I’m saying that endless certificates that celebrate the everyday aren’t helpful to students. You’re saying the same thing. You’re saying that rewards that are unexpected are helpful, I couldn’t agree more. Occasional recognition for genuine achievements I think is a good thing. I don’t think they necessarily have to be academic, but I’m just saying that I don’t think academic achievment should be excised from the list of things schools will recognise.

Although after aguing that we shouldn’t externally reward children you go on to argue that I should support lots of external rewards. I’m not sure I follow you there. I suspect in your attempt to bait me you may have eaten your own tail!

Deezagood.

Thanks for the heads up on the GATEWAYS program. I hadn’t heard of that one. Also, I would be interested in the name of that tutor. I don’t think I’d like to get her tutoring now, she’s only five. Next year she’s in a combined 1/2, so there might be more scope for interesting work. But maybe if she continues to be bored it might be an option. I’m not stressed about grades or anything, seriously, it’s only kindy! My concern for her is that she’s disengaging from school. I don’t particularly care what they teach her, as long as it’s interesting! But my main concern in this post is about the anti-intellectualism of schools.

Based on Cleo’s comment @ 98, I will amend my post to read ‘as the vast majority of ACT parents and Grandparents seem to think their children and granschildren are ‘gifted’…

Testing for Early Childhood

As I have said, my daughter is in kindy so I have seen her tests and results for Performance Indicators in Primary School (PIPS). Here is the relevant ACT website: http://www.det.act.gov.au/teaching_and_learning/assessment_and_reporting/early_years_assessment

My child was not tested on computer, but on paper. Here are some sample questions from the computer testing: http://www.education.uwa.edu.au/pips/future/questions

“No Child Left Behind”

I have a distinct memory of Julia Gillard saying this, around the same time as she said “c-a-t cat”. This would indicate to me that the Federal policy on curriculum tends socialist (ie making sure everyone can read). Perhaps beejay’s beef is with the Federal government, not the school?

World Teachers’ Day

http://www.aeuact.asn.au/documents/WTD2010factsheet.pdf
World Teachers’ Day is Friday 29 October. Just sayin’.

I could say my grandson is gifted, he is very intelligent, he is way beyond his years, my daughter was told that by his teacher, he did receive many awards for his academic achievements, and sports, he was dux of his school in 2nd class, he does become easily bored, he used to finish his homework in class when the others were still doing their lessons. He believes students shouldn’t have homework, he said that when he was in primary school, I just hope he doesn’t become too bored at school, but he is smart enough to realize that he must continue to finish school to do what he wants when he leaves school, and maybe go on to uni, he has an excellent brain and it would be a dam shame to waste it. He used to get on a blog on the Internet at six, he called himself Egghead lol, he is so lucky, he has the looks, sense of humour with a lot of friends, he is a free spirit.

shadow boxer said :

Showing my ignorance here but how exactly would you go about testing a 4-5 year old that can’t read or write and has an attention span of 10 minutes for its “giftedness” ?

A properly qualified paediatrician knows how to do it. It’s not a case of sitting the child down and asking them to identify the odd one out or what is next in the sequence. With 10+ years of training before they are allowed to practise, they do know how to conduct the tests acoutning for literacy, numeracy and short attention spans.

Hang in there beejay. I can’t be arsed reading most of the comments on here by the ignorescenti who clearly feel the need to put you down for wanting the best for your child however, good luck with getting your child an education that they find stimulating and also helps them socially etc. From experience, if a child shows any ‘abnormal’ advanced development, you are harrassed by school/kinder/child care to get an autism assessment ie they can get more funding.

The Traineediplomat10:00 pm 26 Oct 10

My son isn’t gifted he’s an idiot… He just said he wants to be an elephant when he grows up… (mind you he is two, so I can still smack some sense into him).

deezagood said :

p.s. parents of kids at the other end of the spectrum bemoan the lack of interest, resources and attention provided to their children too … schooling does tend to cater for the ‘middle of the pack’.

+1

…at least in High School, they can be streamed by ability (at least in core classes), so the teacher has a better ability to pitch the material at a more appropriate level for their group. Until then, extension material might be on your shoulders. Encourage their creative side… Oh, and watch this

Here’s what I did in late primary school and all through high school – I would read books and draw in the middle of the lessons. All of them. If the teacher asked me any questions, I would answer, and would go right back to reading.

Now, the reason this worked is because I would look up from my book every 30 seconds and copy down anything new on the board, and I understood most things instantly (whereas my peers would take three weeks on each new concept… sigh). Being able to demonstrate to the teacher that no, I’m not being disruptive or ignoring you, I’ve finished all the work and am just keeping myself occupied, is the most important thing.

I can recommend this technique to any student who really is bored at school – simply keep yourself occupied with things that interest you. Make being able to learn in classes AND focus on unrelated things a challenge to beat. Just my experience.

Beejay may I just jump in and suggest that while many people might agree with your point of view your original post was somewhat whingey and probably alienated people.

First of all what have you done thus far to address the problem? Have you arranged an appointment to speak to the school and told them about your daughter’s distress? Have you asked for their suggestions on what you can do to make school more enjoyable for your daughter? Have you offered to go in and do reading for example (with some of the other kids who are not having such an easy time of it)?

Remember the single biggest determinant of what a child gets out of school is their parent’s attitude to the school – so what are you doing to help the situation?

I remember my mum ranting to the Principal about the single sentence readers I was being sent home with and how I could read much more at home etc. And I can imagine how tedious that would be for the school.

In Australia the focus of academic achievement is a gradual one – its part of an egalitarian ethos – yes in other countries there is a focus on knuckling down at an earlier age. However there is little evidence to suggest this leads to better long term outcomes.

Kindergarten is the most important year because (you’re right) it should be about learning being fun and encouraging a desire to learn.

Clown Killer8:59 pm 26 Oct 10

This hurts, but Woody at #73 – Spot on.

What a weird OP!

I have kids in year 1 and year 2 and while they have both been assessed as top of their class in reading and math, I’m more keen to make sure they interact with their peers and enjoy school so that they stick with it instead of becoming so elitist or competitive that it drives them to drop out later on.

For what its worth, my kids school does recognise different levels of ability/achievement and puts the kids into literacy groups according to their individual ability. While our kids do very well we’ve made a point of asking their teachers to make sure our kids get out and play at lunchtime rather than sit in front of a computer or in the library – they can do that at home of an evening. Kids need to play and interact and JB is right, school is one of the basic means for socialising kids into society. Kids simply need experience of others if they are to find their own role in society.

Interestingly, I attended a school reunion on the weekend and quite a few of the kids we thought of as ‘smart’ never ended up going to Uni. On the other hand, one or two of the kids that left school without a decent ASAT score and were seen as ‘non-achievers’ now have multiple degrees and good jobs. Who’s better off in the long run?

Woody Mann-Caruso8:55 pm 26 Oct 10

I’m not particularly egotistical

Of course you aren’t. Everybody who posts on the RiotACT opens with their academic credentials.

You seem to be saying that no achievements should be celebrated at school, that giving a child a certificate and saying “well done” will destroy their ability to do whatever it was that earned them the certificate. I quite disagree with you there.

Then you disagree with forty years of research showing exactly that. Consider, for example, Deci’s 1999 meta evaluation of the previous thirty years of research on the effects of extrinsic rewards on motivation and performance, which concluded: “Careful consideration of reward effects reported in 128 experiments lead to the conclusion that tangible rewards tend to have a substantially negative effect on intrinsic motivation. When institutions—families, schools, businesses, and athletic teams, for example—focus on the short-term and opt for controlling people’s behavior [with extrinsic rewards], they do considerable long-term damage.” You’re doing a PhD, so log in to your uni’s library and read it yourself:

Edward L. Deci, Richard M. Ryan, and Richard Koestner, “A Meta-Analytic Review of Experiments Examining the Effects of Extrinsic Rewards on Intrinsic Motivation,” Psychological Bulletin 125, no. 6 (1999): 659.

Rewards can be beneficial in the short term, if they’re unexpected. Over time, they come to be expected, and thus performance becomes contingent on receiving rewards; motivation declines, a range of unanticipated cognitive barriers fall into place, and performance falls. This is contrary to what’s expected: that you get more of what you reward, less of what you punish. Guess what? Common sense doesn’t always work out in the real world.

In 2002, Daniel Kahneman won the Nobel Prize for economics for his research blowing this so called ‘rational’ model of thought out of the water. People just don’t work like that. Introduce a reward and performance becomes a transaction, with an expected outcome, and a level of risk, and so prospect theory comes into play. Now your precious certificates are creating anxiety, jealousy, contempt – and cold-hearted, apparently irrational calculations about whether it’s worth it. In the absence of any intrinsic motivators, the subject usually decides it isn’t, and their performance goes downhill, along with their enjoyment and overall emotional well-being. This is true even for children (perhaps especially so) – see, for example, Mark Lepper, David Greene, and Robert Nisbett, “Undermining Children’s Intrinsic Interest with Extrinsic Rewards: A Test of the ‘Overjustification’ Hypothesis,” Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 28, no. 1 (1973): 129-37. Yes, we really have known about this since the 70s, and yes, we still get it very, very wrong.

It’s a bit of a shame that we focus so much on the ‘but you tried really hard and that’s what matters’ side of things. Personally, I think ‘but I tried really hard’ is the cry of the loser.

Striving is an admirable quality. Getting 10/10 on your maths quiz or spelling test when you’re already ‘gifted’ isn’t an achievement. It was easy for you. Rewarding you strokes your ego in the short term, demotivates you in the long-term – both are damaging. The kid who struggles his arse off and goes from getting a 4 to getting a 6 is the achievement. Improvement is what matters. How we treat one another is what matters. But that brings us to:

The awards are given, as I said, for things like ‘caring’ and it is ensured that everyone gets at least a couple of certificates in the course of the year. *eye roll*

How dreadful, and how very cool of you to be all eye rolly about it. Rewarded for caring – for helping to support one another, to build a cohesive society – what were they thinking? And let’s not skip over your overt subtext – all that attention given to the little retarded children takes the spotlight away from your almost-but-not-quite-Hawking daughter, and that’s not fair, is it? _She_ deserves praise, and lots of it, otherwise what’s the point in being gifted? As for your pathetic ‘wait til they hit the job market’ claim – I’ll probably hire more people this year than you’ll probably hire in your life. Guess what I’m looking for? Team players – people who can help build consensus, a supportive environment, a way forward that includes as many people as possible. The rest they can learn on the job.

Over to you. Let’s see your research, your evidence, your Nobel laureates. I’m sure you’ll understand if I put my money on more uninformed, elitist snobbery, though.

p.s. parents of kids at the other end of the spectrum bemoan the lack of interest, resources and attention provide to their children too …. schooling does tend to cater for the ‘middle of the pack’.

Beejay,

Some pointers based on my own experiences of primary school education in the ACT. Firstly, as the vast majority of ACT parents seem to think their children are ‘gifted’, teachers tend (probably sensibly) to ignore these assertions by parents for the first few years, even where those children have been formally tested. I suspect this is why you have endured the level of vitriol directed here … Canberrans are probably really sick of everyone talking about their gifted children and their gifted selves.

The good news is that in a few years, in the right schooling environment (public or private), your children WILL be identified and hopefully catered for by a range of activities designed to stimulate the brighter kids. The ACT has an outstanding program called GATEWAYS (they have a website) and children from grade 1 and up are selected to attend various workshops throughout the year. GATEWAYS also has regular Saturday afternoon sessions which are fun and educational for gifted kids.

After grade four, the kids also have the opportunity to undertake UNSW exams (which are administered internationally) in maths, science, general english, spelling and writing and perhaps gain certificates if they do well. The bad news is that the extent to which your child has access to these wonderful programs depends on your school. You should ask the Principal if kids at your school participate in GATEWAYS (team challenges and workshops), Tournament of Minds, and UNSW exams. If they don’t offer those opportunities to the kids, then I would look at changing schools. There are public primary schools in the ACT who cater for gifted kids through special programs eg. Curtain Public School.

My second point is that you really shouldn’t stress too much in the early years of primary school (especially if your child is academically bright), because the most important thing for the kids at this stage is learning how to work in a classroom environment, play with other children and have fun. Their lifetime academic ability will not be compromised by a lack of academic challenges in the early years of school … but an inability to work with others, form peer groups and get along with other people may be detrimental in future. I know it is hard with your first child, but try, really hard, to see school as being so much more than just formal reading, maths and science. Your child will have an opportunity later to ‘shine’ …. Also try not to get too stressed about the grades that they are given either … just breathe and remember that it is only primary school! Most of the kids at our school will get Cs for most of their subjects, even where they have been given High Distinctions (top 2% of children who took the exam) in related UNSW exams and have off-the-charts NAPLAN results. That is just how primary school assessments seem to roll in some ACT schools; nobody gets more than a ‘C’, even if they are struggling or are at the other end of the scale.

After all of that, if you really think your daughter is seriously bored, is becoming negative about school and you don’t like teaching yourself, maybe engage a tutor to work with her for an hour a week, set some homework tasks and challenge her in new and interesting ways. Much cheaper than private school and she will get one-on-one teaching. I can refer you to an exceptional tutor, who is gifted herself, is undertaking post-grad quals in gifted education (and a qualified primary school teacher) if you are interested (she is a teacher at my daughter’s school who is looking for tutoring work next year).

The schooling road is a very long one – try to save your energy and worrying for the later years when it counts! The kids pick up on their parent’s emotions, so your daughter will take her cues from you. If you seem positive and excited about her school, and ooh and ahh over her awards for recyling/being friendly … then she probably will feel more positive too. Good luck!!

The cat did it8:09 pm 26 Oct 10

sorry- the quote should be “where all the women are strong, all the men are good-looking, and all the children are above average’ should have checked Wikipedia first.

Have you looked at the ACT’s policy on gifted and talented students?
http://nswagtc.org.au/files/resources/permanent/ACT_2008_GAT_Policy.pdf

If your child is truly gifted then your classroom teacher should have already recognised this. There will be evidence of this in your child’s portfolio, and you should have already had at least one discussion with the classroom teacher about your concerns. From there, follow the flowchart.

(Btw, I just love how many parents think their school is doing nothing for their child. Try spend a day in a good classroom, and what you see will change your mind completely.)

Finally, having been into gifted and talented classes, I can guarantee the only children who are in those classrooms are children whose parents have invested a lot of time with their child’s education. They are also parents who work with the teacher, with correspondence between the teacher, child and parent a very normal thing. So I would suggest you start taking on the role of teacher as well… The best thing you can do for your child is to take a great interest in their life and education (including be a role model showing how important you think education is), and to teach them not to know everything, but to know how to learn.

The cat did it8:04 pm 26 Oct 10

Reminds me of Garrison Keillor’s town of Lake Woebegone, where ‘all the men are handsome, all the women are attractive, and all the children are above average’.

Holden Caulfield +1

shadow boxer said :

They could get the teachers to run the kindergarten extension programs during the school holidays.

I’ll see myself out —–>

LOL +1

so I suppose that you don’t want to hear that kids only learn their times tables up to ten. no more eleven times eleven is 121.

Great thread! I can’t decide what scares me more: the rise of anti-intellectualism in modern society or modern mothers.

georgesgenitals6:31 pm 26 Oct 10

It’s a bit of a shame that we focus so much on the ‘but you tried really hard and that’s what matters’ side of things. Personally, I think ‘but I tried really hard’ is the cry of the loser.

Last year at work a lot of people were whinging about salary and bonuses, and one of the top dogs flew in for a pep talk. His message, which offended most people, was that results are what count – the company doesn’t reward good intentions. I kept my mouth shut, but frankly agree.

Kids need to learn to deal with disappointment and play to their strengths. Figuring this out as an adult is not doing them any favours.

Hmmmmm, 9/78 or 11% of posts in this thread claim that the poster or their child was gifted. What are the usual percentages of “giftedness” in society? (No need to comment on my gift for maths or scientific method.)

hi Holden.

I am of the same vintage. I don’t know about high school, but it is ‘everybody wins a prize’. Our school does not have academic awards, even for the middle school students. The awards are given, as I said, for things like ‘caring’ and it is ensured that everyone gets at least a couple of certificates in the course of the year. *eye roll* Hate to think what will happen when they get turned down for a job in a few years….

I would much prefer recognition where it’s earned, and none where it aint.

Woody, can we just leave out the hyperbole and personal abuse for a moment? I’m not particularly egotistical. I’m certainly not perspective-deprived. I see the other perspective. I just disagree. I certainly do not support any notion that the gifted are superior genetic stock. “Only the gifted will triumph”. What a load of rubbish.

I’m talking about recognising academic achievement in the same way they recognise other achievement. You seem to be saying that no achievements should be celebrated at school, that giving a child a certificate and saying “well done” will destroy their ability to do whatever it was that earned them the certificate. I quite disagree with you there.

I suspect, however, this is not what you are talking about. I suspect you are talking about the endless torrent of praise the pours out regardless of the merits of a particular piece of work, or effort. If that’s what you’re saying, I coudn’t agree more. You are absolutely right that it is useless and inhibits a person from being able to effectively self-regulate. In fact, I think this sort of mediocrity and the celebration thereof is what I was originally railing against.

Holden Caulfield5:10 pm 26 Oct 10

beejay76 said :

My whole original point (which I perhaps didn’t make very well, but anyway) was that schools are ignoring academic achievement. It is not congratulated, supported or in any way encouraged. This is not just about kindy, it’s across the whole school…

Back in my day (late 80s) academic success wasn’t measured much at primary level, but it was at high school, with end of year awards handed out for a number of academic categories, including a the naming of a dux for each year level.

In this age of everyone wins a prize, do they not do this sort of thing anymore?

Sport can be a great leveller. With the right attitude and application sport can be played by anyone and enjoyed by anyone. Calculus, on the other hand, requires a degree of mental aptitude that many don’t possess. And it will always suck!

Woody Mann-Caruso5:00 pm 26 Oct 10

schools are ignoring academic achievement. It is not congratulated, supported or in any way encouraged

Bullsh*t – the problem is that it’s rewarded too often, making learning and development an extrinsic process. Go Google the drivers and impediments to human motivation and think a little bit about why providing children with extrinsic rewards might retard their intrinsic motivation, as a result, their overall performance. The teacher who says ‘good’ and moves on is doing your daughter a favour – the teacher who fawns over her, singles her out, frames interactions with her on her intelligence, segregates her and foists decorations upon her is damaging her at the expense of your ego.

Holden Caulfield4:55 pm 26 Oct 10

Jim Jones said :

WMC – normally I’m a fan of yours. I have no idea why you’re being such a massive d1ck about this.

Perhaps being a fan of WMC has blinded you. Merits of WMC’s arguments aside, being a massive d1ck is usually the style. This approach generally makes for excellent internet fodder, though. So, I guess, in some ways, I am a fan, too! WMC is an excellent argumenter, I just haven’t worked out if he/she is like this all the time, or is just toying with us online.

Woody Mann-Caruso4:51 pm 26 Oct 10

WMC – normally I’m a fan of yours. I have no idea why you’re being such a massive d1ck about this.

We can’t agree all the time, and haven’t in the past, and to be fair, my form here isn’t any different to that on matters on which we’ve agreed.

But you’re really asking why I’ve pounced on some egotistical, perspective-deprived special snowflake attacking a public school system that’s doing the best it can for as many as possible with what little it has? Somebody who claims to be educated but can’t grasp why it’s not feasible to bend an institution to deliver a tailored solution for one person? Someobdy who laments that the school won’t give her special support but claims she has no obligations with respect to her child’s scholastic development at home? Somebody who just assumes, without any justification, that any resources diverted away from those at the bottom of her precious curve to her offspring will deliver the best payoff?

Wait to see how the ‘political correctness’ angle plays out. All the talk of ‘bell curves’ and ‘rewarding achievement’ set off the amber light – I’m keen to watch her go to red with an explanation of how the meritocracy demands that her special, special child, born to a special, special person needs special, special government support that’s currently being wasted on inferior genetic stock, despite said support being antithetical to all for which the ‘only the gifted will triumph’ meritocracy stands.

My whole original point (which I perhaps didn’t make very well, but anyway) was that schools are ignoring academic achievement. It is not congratulated, supported or in any way encouraged. This is not just about kindy, it’s across the whole school. I was trying to express that it’s not a culture of not recognising success, which they are happy to do in any endeavour outside the academic, it’s simply about fear. I think that our fear of making some people feel inferior means that we don’t strive (as a school, for example) for academic excellence. We have been treated, in our school, to lengthy assemblies praising those who have excelled in sport. That’s brilliant. But if you attend the assemblies, look at the awards and read the newsletter you would swear to god that no child at this school has ever done anything even remotely impressive in the academic realm. I guaratee you that is not true. There’s bound to be loads of bright kids just like mine who are left to their own devices.

Thank you for bringing the argument back around to where I was trying to start it! PHEW!

georgesgenitals4:44 pm 26 Oct 10

beejay76 said :

Georgesgenitals: Firstly BRILLIANT name. It just kills me. And thanks for the hurrah! Do you think I’ve made the home stretch? I fear it’s a way off yet. We haven’t even started on how wrong I am about schools! We’ve only ascertained that I’m a complete wanker!

🙂 🙂

I originally chose the username after lurking for a while, and figured that offending people with that name would set me off on the right path here…

Shadowboxer: the state makes you test them formally for early entry. I’m not a huge fan. I think if you’re going to go that whole psych testing route, it would be much better to wait until the tests are more reliable, ie around 8ish. But I can understand where they’re coming from.

Georgesgenitals: Firstly BRILLIANT name. It just kills me. And thanks for the hurrah! Do you think I’ve made the home stretch? I fear it’s a way off yet. We haven’t even started on how wrong I am about schools! We’ve only ascertained that I’m a complete wanker!

But alas! I wouldn’t do flower stickers on my car. Nor Brumbies. Nor whatever the ACT rugby league team are called (sorry, escaped my mind there. Apologies to fans of whoever-they-are).

Holden Caulfield4:41 pm 26 Oct 10

beejay76 said :

Oh Holden. The opening was meant to be tongue in cheek. Obviously I didn’t pull it off. It is a bit hard without tone of voice.

Fair enough.

beejay76 said :

I am still surprised at the vitriol. I’m not surprised that people disagree, that’s perfectly fine. But the hatred spilling out? Yes, I am surprised. I am also surprised that most of the invective has been coming from people who haven’t really addressed my central thesis…

You haven’t read RiotACT much have you? The point remains, though, you introduced yourself (and to a lesser degree your daughter) as an intellectual elite. As highlighted in responses elsewhere, and indirectly by yourself, Australian culture does not take kindly to individuals boasting about their academic achievements. Boasting might be too strong a term in this context, but I’m sure you follow my point.

Yes, it could be said, a failure to acknowledge and recognise academic prowess, in the same way we celebrate sporting talents, is a poor reflection on our society. That’s a debate for another place. One would have thought common sense would make it clear RiotACT is not that place.

beejay76 said :

I most certainly have considered other reasons for her being bored. There’s an excellent one we are working on, which I won’t bother going into now. But ultimately, learning ABC when you can read fluently really is exceptionally boring, wouldn’t you say?

Quite possibly. However, kids can be affected by all sorts of issues that we adults may assume would pass them by. I’m not sure simple boredom equates to tears and LOATHING (emphasis borrowed from your previous posts). That might be what your daughter is telling you, and it could be a contributing factor, I acknowledge. However, my totally unqualified guess is if a previously enjoyable kindy has now become so unbearable then there is more to this tale than either you or your daughter have revealed. I don’t mean that to sound sinister, apologies if it did.

Good luck finding a satisfactory outcome.

In future, my advice would be to pick your audience better if you want to seriously discuss the “gifted” angle. Or get a thicker skin if you choose to open the floor to all-comers.

She loved school for the first three weeks. Then she wasn’t really into it. Now she LOATHES it. She is so bored she’s often in tears in the morning at the thought of sitting and doing nothing for six hours.

Funny… I loved my job for the first few months, now I loathe coming to work… Except I’m bored for EIGHT hours with nothing to do !

Woody Mann-Caruso4:33 pm 26 Oct 10

mired in political correctness to the point where they overcome their central purpose to educate children.

Now that’s a curious turn of phrase. What sort of ‘political correctness’ are you talking about, exactly?

beejay76, if I may be so bold as to offer a word of advice: there’s not much point getting into an argument here about anything of real value. If you want to have a bit of fun and rile some people up, go nuts. But anything more is just going to be a waste of time. Take anything positive and ignore the rest.

WMC – normally I’m a fan of yours. I have no idea why you’re being such a massive d1ck about this.

georgesgenitals4:18 pm 26 Oct 10

georgesgenitals said :

beejay76 said :

Don’t have a car right now, by the way. What’s the deal with the black? Is that a secret code?

Good for you – you’ve made it this far. Now, do you have stickers of flowers on your car windows?

Let me rephrase – WOULD you have stickers of flowers on your car window?

don’t ask woody about the black car – you might get an answer…

shadow boxer4:11 pm 26 Oct 10

shadow boxer said :

“Showing my ignorance here but how exactly would you go about testing a 4-5 year old that can’t read or write and has an attention span of 10 minutes for its “giftedness” ?”

“Gifted at what exactly ?”

Well, intelligence testing for preschoolers is not as robust as testing for older children or adults. It is pretty accurate, though, and shows high correlations with the tests for older people. The most commonly used test is the WPPSI, although Raven’s Progressive Matrices are also and non-language intelligence test, if you’re interested in looking into that sort of thing.

Giftedness is a descriptor used for people who’s intelligence is significantly above the mean. So in this way it’s similar to the way “developmental delay” is used for those with intelligence significantly below the mean. Generally it means across the board, as those who excel in only one area are referred to as talented. Similar to developmental delay, there are different levels of giftedness, from mild to profound

Fair enough, I didn’t know that, but it’s never really occured to me that someone would test a kindergartner

georgesgenitals4:09 pm 26 Oct 10

beejay76 said :

Don’t have a car right now, by the way. What’s the deal with the black? Is that a secret code?

Good for you – you’ve made it this far. Now, do you have stickers of flowers on your car windows?

You know Woody, this may be where you and I differ. You think that an interesting time at home will make up for a boring time at school. I don’t think so. If she wants to do something that requires further study (look I know this is a long way down the track, but just stay with me on this one) perceiving formal education as a boring waste of time won’t really be very helpful. I’m not saying that attitudes formed in kindy will persist until she’s 105. I’m not saying that if nothing changes now we’ll all be doomed. What I’m saying is that an interesting and challenging education is something that I think *all* children should have. I think the worst outcome from a school education is not ignorance, but school loathing.

Oh, see note above about tongue-in-cheekness. Sorry it didn’t come off.

Don’t have a car right now, by the way. What’s the deal with the black? Is that a secret code?

James-T-Kirk3:56 pm 26 Oct 10

DeadlySchnauzer said :

Primary school is not about learning, its about interacting and socialising and running around and falling out of trees a few times.

Almost….

Primary school, High School, and now College are now simply about Child Care – Remember, we increased the age where kids have to stay in child care to 17 instead of 15, so now they can successfully disrupt our college students.

Oh Holden. The opening was meant to be tongue in cheek. Obviously I didn’t pull it off. It is a bit hard without tone of voice.

I am still surprised at the vitriol. I’m not surprised that people disagree, that’s perfectly fine. But the hatred spilling out? Yes, I am surprised. I am also surprised that most of the invective has been coming from people who haven’t really addressed my central thesis: that schools are becoming bland and mired in political correctness to the point where they overcome their central purpose to educate children. The fact that I used my daughter as the example here seems to have overridden absolutely everything else!

I most certainly have considered other reasons for her being bored. There’s an excellent one we are working on, which I won’t bother going into now. But ultimately, learning ABC when you can read fluently really is exceptionally boring, wouldn’t you say?

Although I think the beauty pageant idea is brilliant. I might make a few calls…..

Woody Mann-Caruso3:53 pm 26 Oct 10

I would have thought someone with your intelligence could appreciate that I mean seated, academic work.

I would have thought somebody with your intellgence would appreciate that seated, academic work is not required to provide your gifted child with a stimulating home environment that will more than make up for any perceived shortcomings you attribute to her school. But hey, you’ve got rules about TV. I’m sure that’ll do it.

No, Woody. I will never teach my child anything.

Your words, not mine. Shall I recap? “I don’t like teaching children (even my own) and therefore have not taught, and do not wish to teach my child at home.” Further, you equate ‘teaching’ with “seated, academic work” and “schoolwork”. This is a picture of my face upon learning that you believe that your school should be solely responsible for you child’s academic development and that you have no role to play:

😐

Can you see the surprise? No, me either.

You have issues, you know?

Because I’m the one ranting online about what I’m doing at uni and how my kid is bored at school and it’s everybody else’s fault but mine.

Do you drive a black car?

My sympathy for your daughter – I was wildly bored through a lot of primary school, starting with Kindy, which I mostly blame on really large class sizes and my own shyness. It’s probably for those reasons that the Kindy teacher didn’t notice I could read when I started – I had a laugh looking back at my report card. (My mum had taught me when she was giving my brother lessons, this was after he had failed to be taught to read by the time he was in year 6 at the same school**.) The later teachers paid a bit more attention to that sort of thing.

Things improved a lot when I changed to a school with smaller class sizes and increased teacher attention, though the switch happened after a spate of bullying rather than anything else.

**The school’s on the South Coast, I hope they’ve improved in the last 30 years.

Beserk Keyboard Warrior3:47 pm 26 Oct 10

housebound said :

Ooops – typo –
To all those who tell you just to suck it up, THEY obviously have no idea what it is like to be the kid in the class that can learn in 5 minutes what the rest of the class takes three weeks to get even a basic understanding of.

I loved that bit at the end of your show where you’d write in your computer-diary.

OK. It was a while ago, but we’ve been told by teachers to change schools because they can’t cater for our (smart) child. They wouldn’t dare say that if the kids were not so bright, but there you go.

Your options are (from experience):

1. homeschool your daughter for a year. Quite a few parents of kindy kids have found this to work. It basically gives the rest of their cohort a chance to catch up on basic educational skills. (we didn’t do this, but friends did and it worked a treat)

2. accept that school is boring for her, teach her to accept that (there’s a promise it gets better in high shool, unless she is really, really gifted), and accept that she’ll probably go to school just enough to comply with the law (relevant after she is 6). That’ll give you lots of learning opportunities – art galleries, museums, library resources etc. – that don’t require you to become a teacher. It’s a lot of fun too, and your daughter will grow into a very well adjusted and well educated high schooler.

3. move to Yass – one of the primary schools there leaves the ACT system dead in the water for teaching to individual needs. (and you can commute to Canberra) – again friends’ recent experiences, not ours.

4. find another school that will teach to your child’s individual needs. Blue Gum, Montessori and Orana are the main options I would recommend as they focus on this approach.

5. try speaking to the gifted and talented parent group (something we never had). It is supposed to be excellent in helping you navigate the ACT education system.

6. it is worth persisting because a serious danger for gifted kids is that they never learn to work with others because the ‘others’ in their class simply aren’t up to the task. Teachers need to help here by designing tasks that mix and match skills and force even the smartist kids to rely on someone else for their skill.

7. put your daughter through music lessons or something that she actually has to work at – an important life skill for her will be that learning isn’t always easy.

8. if you haven’t already, have your daughter’s learning style assessed – can she process verbal instructions or does she need everything written down? Does she need help concentrating in a noisy room? It is not unusual for really smart kids to have unusual learning styles, and they can claim ‘boredom’ when they aren’t coping with the environment.

9. Spend time in the classroom – helping with reading, craft etc – this lets you keep an eye on what is happening.

Note to the cynics: the behaviour the OP has described is typical of gifted children stuck in this situation. I’m on his/her side.

eyeLikeCarrots3:30 pm 26 Oct 10

Don’t depend on someone else to maximise your childs apparent gift. You’ve already given your child a good biologic headstart, its upto you to make something out of it.

SolarPowered3:29 pm 26 Oct 10

Seriously, beejay76, what were you expecting when you posted on this site? At first I thought you might have been trolling, but when I saw how long your post was, I realised that you are just pretty naive.

Having said that, I tend to agree that the education system caters to the lowest common denominator. Always has, always will. I just don’t get what you were hoping to get out of posting on The Riot-Act. Join the P&C or something. There are bound to be other mums in the same boat.

Failing that, go post on Essential Baby. They love talking about their kids endlessly over there.

Pommy bastard3:19 pm 26 Oct 10

I still say beauty pageants are the way to go. Loads of attention and lots of recognition, and the chance of lots of rewards.

beejay76 said :

I’m fairly surprised at the level of vitriol. I’m pretty sure that nothing I wrote really deserves personal abuse. Perhaps those that are so offended might like to have a wee think about their own perspective, and why they feel so threatened by this topic.

I’d like to make a few points, perhaps for clarification.

1) I don’t like teaching children (even my own) and therefore have not taught, and do not wish to teach my child at home. And before you ask, NO, I am not into that “baby einstein” rubbish or any other bullshit that is supposed to give your child a better start. My kids have had a very basic early childhood. Books. No TV before age 2. Open ended toys. End of.

2)I don’t push my child. I’m not trying to shove her through curriculum. All I’m saying is that I’d quite like my child to have an education that is interesting. She loved school for the first three weeks. Then she wasn’t really into it. Now she LOATHES it. She is so bored she’s often in tears in the morning at the thought of sitting and doing nothing for six hours. As far as I’m concerned, this is not a good start to education. Those that allege that I expect my child to be doing advanced physics are seriously overreacting. I want her to learn that learning is fun. That learning is rewarding. THAT is what she should be learning, whatever the curriculum.

3) I want my child to be a child. Why on earth should she have to spend an hour after school doing schoolwork when she sits at a desk bored stupid for six hours a day? When is she meant to play if she has to go school, and then has to do extra school? I don’t think that’s a great option, although I realise it’s probably the only realistic one.

4) She is gifted. She has been tested. I’m not imagining it. It is generally agreed that intelligence and tests thereof (not just IQ) fall into a standard normal curve. Those that don’t understand statistics can go and read about standard normal distributions, means and standard deviations. It’s not rocket science.

5) She was already enrolled early entry into preschool, as she was born a few days outside the cutoff. The school is not keen to accelerate a child that has already been accelerated.

6) The school does have a grades 1/2 combined, so hopefully there might be some more interesting stuff going on.

7) Lastly, I absolutely agree that a large part of kindy is about socialisation. Thank goodness there’s a wonderful bunch of people at the school and she’s made excellent friends!

Thanks to those with useful suggestions. Unfortunately we are not in a financial postition to go with Montessori, although I think it would be good in her situation.

You’ve won me over. The ‘no TV before 2’ rule puts you miles ahead of the pack (ah the stories I’ve heard about parents fighting with childcare centres that pop kids in front of the television every day, great way to raise docile little sheeple).

If your daughter is bored at the thought of going to kindergarten (which generally isn’t much more than socialised play sessions), then a good option may be to think about moving schools. There isn’t much in the way of academic streaming at public schools at this early level, but you may find a public school with a higher base level that suits your daughter’s needs. Honestly, this may even be simply due to the particular teacher that your daughter has (parents moving schools because of conflict or dissatisfaction with particular teacher is not unheard of, and can actually be a good idea). The potential problem you run with this is disrupting your daughter’s social network. However, keep in mind that it’s a lot easier to do this now than as she gets older and has more established friendships.

Schools value sport and community involvement, etc. above intellectual achievement because mainstream Australian culture has the same values – Australia has an anti-intellectual streak a mile-long. Thankfully, intellectual achievement brings its own substantial rewards.

Finally, don’t be surprised at the level of vitriol. It’s the internet.

Holden Caulfield2:35 pm 26 Oct 10

beejay76 said :

I’m fairly surprised at the level of vitriol. I’m pretty sure that nothing I wrote really deserves personal abuse. Perhaps those that are so offended might like to have a wee think about their own perspective, and why they feel so threatened by this topic…

Well, let’s see, you started off telling us how wonderful you are. Then you informed us your child is excelling at kindergarten. That’s right, kindergarten. And, let’s not forget, you’re telling us all of this on RiotACT. Now you’re telling us it is a surprise to you that some people have asked you to either HTFU or STFU. Even better, you have basically insinuated these responses have been given because those making them are intellectually inferior to you and your offspring.

I’m not really interested in how intelligent you think you and your daughter are, nor am I interested in hearing all the wonderful tests you’ve paid for that confirm your assumptions. However, a failure to anticipate the responses given above displays a woeful lack of common sense on your part. With any luck Little Miss Gifted will fall a little further from the tree.

I’m also mildly amused at the conclusion that the only reason your child is bored at kindy is because she is “gifted”. There could be no other explanation could there?

Have you even considered an alternative reason?

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

There’s no recognition for high academic achievers. I think it’s rather important, myself.

Funny. My parents taught me that a job well done is its own reward.

But how crass of me. You don’t teach your child, do you?

No, Woody. I will never teach my child anything. To this day she is unable to eat with cutlery, use the toilet or put on shoes. Neither can she use a scooter or name a single bird.

Do you think you’re a little extreme? I would have thought someone with your intelligence could appreciate that I mean seated, academic work.

You have issues, you know?

Woody! Mate! You need to calm down. I’m glad you enjoyed your experience at school. Not everyone is you, and my daughter is bored.

How did I get from “I don’t like teaching” to “I feed my child horrendous food and never give them any cool toys”. And you claim you’re gifted? There’s a hole in your reasoning you could drive a truck through. Your assumptions are incorrect, and I am not going to dignify them with a response here.

Yes, I think that making almost no mistakes in spelling, reading and maths is outstanding for someone who’s only five. Don’t you? A little “well done” would be nice. I’m not expecting telegram from the Queen.

I didn’t say the state had to change the distribution of intelligence in the human species. I thought that a bit of harder work for a child that needs it wouldn’t go astray. And saying “well done” for a job well done would probably help as well.

As to your last comment, many posters suggested that I teach my child extension work myself. While this is an eminently sensible suggestion, I was saying that I don’t think she should have to do her schoolwork after school. If you think it’s appropriate that 5-year-olds do an hour of homework that’s perfectly OK. I don’t.

shadow boxer said :

Showing my ignorance here but how exactly would you go about testing a 4-5 year old that can’t read or write and has an attention span of 10 minutes for its “giftedness” ?

Gifted at what exactly ?

Well, intelligence testing for preschoolers is not as robust as testing for older children or adults. It is pretty accurate, though, and shows high correlations with the tests for older people. The most commonly used test is the WPPSI, although Raven’s Progressive Matrices are also and non-language intelligence test, if you’re interested in looking into that sort of thing.

Giftedness is a descriptor used for people who’s intelligence is significantly above the mean. So in this way it’s similar to the way “developmental delay” is used for those with intelligence significantly below the mean. Generally it means across the board, as those who excel in only one area are referred to as talented. Similar to developmental delay, there are different levels of giftedness, from mild to profound. My daughter is closer to the bottom of the giftedness scale. People like Stephen Hawking are way up the top.

Woody Mann-Caruso2:04 pm 26 Oct 10

There’s no recognition for high academic achievers. I think it’s rather important, myself.

Funny. My parents taught me that a job well done is its own reward.

But how crass of me. You don’t teach your child, do you?

Read stories and comments to your child from the RiotACT. Or if she’s truly gifted she can read them herself.

Guaranteed 100% educational.

shadow boxer1:45 pm 26 Oct 10

Showing my ignorance here but how exactly would you go about testing a 4-5 year old that can’t read or write and has an attention span of 10 minutes for its “giftedness” ?

Gifted at what exactly ?

Woody Mann-Caruso1:42 pm 26 Oct 10

To all those who tell you just to suck it up, you obviously have no idea what it is like to be the kid in the class that can learn in 5 minutes what the rest of the class takes three weeks to get even a basic understanding of. It is soul destroying.

I was that kid, and I thought it was awesome. Some years were better than others, and some teachers were better than others, but that’s real life for you. I also had parents who had a better attitude than the OP, what with its ‘I don’t like teaching children (even my own) and therefore have not taught, and do not wish to teach my child at home.’ Apparently being a parent means you put fish fingers on the table at 5pm and make sure there are some bland wooden toys around, job done.

Those that allege that I expect my child to be doing advanced physics are seriously overreacting.

Overreacting? This from somebody talking about a kindergartner’s ‘outstanding academic achievements’? Please. Come on, what are they?

It is generally agreed that intelligence and tests thereof (not just IQ) fall into a standard normal curve.

…and? I missed the part where the state is obligated to do something about this ‘problem’.

Why on earth should she have to spend an hour after school doing schoolwork

Wow, you sure do have a very narrow understanding of how to teach a child. My four year old is playing with Bristlebots. Do you reckon he thinks of it as ‘schoolwork’?

Oh, and also, the celebration of mediocrity does not stop at kindy. All the way up to year six. As I said, there’s no recognition for high academic achievers. I think it’s rather important, myself. Her education does not stop at the end of this year.

Pommy bastard said :

If school isn’t living up to your expectations of rewarding your child for their achievements, why not enter them in beauty pageants instead?

bahahahaaahaha – I concur!

I’m fairly surprised at the level of vitriol. I’m pretty sure that nothing I wrote really deserves personal abuse. Perhaps those that are so offended might like to have a wee think about their own perspective, and why they feel so threatened by this topic.

I’d like to make a few points, perhaps for clarification.

1) I don’t like teaching children (even my own) and therefore have not taught, and do not wish to teach my child at home. And before you ask, NO, I am not into that “baby einstein” rubbish or any other bullshit that is supposed to give your child a better start. My kids have had a very basic early childhood. Books. No TV before age 2. Open ended toys. End of.

2)I don’t push my child. I’m not trying to shove her through curriculum. All I’m saying is that I’d quite like my child to have an education that is interesting. She loved school for the first three weeks. Then she wasn’t really into it. Now she LOATHES it. She is so bored she’s often in tears in the morning at the thought of sitting and doing nothing for six hours. As far as I’m concerned, this is not a good start to education. Those that allege that I expect my child to be doing advanced physics are seriously overreacting. I want her to learn that learning is fun. That learning is rewarding. THAT is what she should be learning, whatever the curriculum.

3) I want my child to be a child. Why on earth should she have to spend an hour after school doing schoolwork when she sits at a desk bored stupid for six hours a day? When is she meant to play if she has to go school, and then has to do extra school? I don’t think that’s a great option, although I realise it’s probably the only realistic one.

4) She is gifted. She has been tested. I’m not imagining it. It is generally agreed that intelligence and tests thereof (not just IQ) fall into a standard normal curve. Those that don’t understand statistics can go and read about standard normal distributions, means and standard deviations. It’s not rocket science.

5) She was already enrolled early entry into preschool, as she was born a few days outside the cutoff. The school is not keen to accelerate a child that has already been accelerated.

6) The school does have a grades 1/2 combined, so hopefully there might be some more interesting stuff going on.

7) Lastly, I absolutely agree that a large part of kindy is about socialisation. Thank goodness there’s a wonderful bunch of people at the school and she’s made excellent friends!

Thanks to those with useful suggestions. Unfortunately we are not in a financial postition to go with Montessori, although I think it would be good in her situation.

Many public schools have very good gifted and talented programmes, but they usually start from year 1. Kindergarten is designed to get kids comfortable in their new learning environment, identify learning styles of the children, groups of children who learn well together,and to start to identify kids with special needs and g&t needs.

There are a wide range of models and philosophies of g&t programmes from self contained classrooms (my youngest child’s school) to extension programmes (my eldest child’s school). The children have to undergo testing to be accepted into the programme, and, again this differs according to the model used at the school.

Have a look at some of the public schools websites and see what they have on offer. Apply for a few different ones and see what happens. Out of area children can be accepted into schools depending on places available.

Give it a go and see what happens.

Inappropriate12:57 pm 26 Oct 10

Sadly the problem is that there are kids in the class who are 1-2 standard deviations on the wrong side of the bell-curve, and others whose mental health needs see them destined for Club-Fed, who are using up all the teacher’s time and energy.

Schools nowadays are too integrated, too inclusive, and too politically correct; it gets in the way of getting anything done.

Beejay76,

I am sorry people are having a go at you on this. I recognise that many people do think their kids are different and or gifted, but I don’t think that excuses others from being smartalecs towards your post.

Having said that, I think that the real issue here lies with our education systems in general. Aside from all of the normal issues of public/private, whether teachers are paid enough, and so on, essentially the whole set-up is stuck in the past.

Go back 150 years and most people did not go much beyond Year 6. Kids were given the very basics allowing them to read instructions, and to do arithmetic tasks. This was all that was needed in a world where the vast majority would work on farms, in factories, and as employees. The very rigid social format it was set up in reflected the world at that time:
desks faced the authority figure, and bells rang to get kids used to the idea of responding to similar bells/alarms in factories. Topics were taught by rote to accustom kids to get used to doing repetitive work on an assembly line and the like.

Now we live in a world where around 30% of the workforce is casual. The basic skills are still important but are nowhere near enough to equip kids for the modern world. The Western world has a massive problem with debt, in large part because the majority of the population cannot understand a balance sheet, or the difference between a liability and an asset. Nor are they taught anything about risk and return.That’s just the financial side.

As has been noted above by some people, there are many really intelligent people in the world without communications skills. Why is effective communication, and cross-cultural sensitivity not being taught in schools? How many of us could survive if no food came to the supermarkets? How many of us now know how to make our own clothes? Or understand how the machines around them every day actually work?

Many of the world’s future jobs have not even been invented yet, but where are kids taught how to be creative and innovative? Why are schools, especially high schools, not open 24 hours a day?

My point is that if you really think your daughter is that special, maybe it is worth moving cities to find a school which CAN help develop her to her full potential. I understand too that that may be a bridge too far.

I agree with what people have said about kindy being for socialising – it is important for your daughter to actually have friends she can get along with, or she will find the years to come very,very hard. I also think that what people say about parental stimulation is really important too. Have you taken her to the art gallery, or the museums around the place?

Maybe it would help to bring some of friends along with her, if they want to come. She might learn more by helping to teach her friends about a dinosaur, or whatever, because she may (and will have to, in the long run) have to learn how to simplify a topic for an audience to understand.

I suggest lots of books, art and exercise. Anything she is curious about she will devour 🙂

Maybe Steiner or Montessori schools are a good option, although I don’t know much about them. The Islamic School might be good to.

Good luck, and well done on being passionate about your dughter’s future 🙂

I stopped reading after the word “gifted” raised it’s ugly head.

I think the number of gifted children I have met who are nothing more than slightly above average makes me slightly cynical about the widespread use of this term.

Parents like you are probably another reason so many people don’t want to take up teaching as a profession.

la mente torbida12:33 pm 26 Oct 10

“I would have thought, with an Honours degree under my belt, and having started a PhD, that there would be nothing for me to learn from kindergarten.”

Special people need special schools for their offspring.

shadow boxer12:30 pm 26 Oct 10

Here’s my take on it from having four kids. 1 in year 10, one in year 7 and twins in year two. They are all in private school.

The one in year 10 is now in all the top groups for maths, science and english and loves that sort of thing, the one in year 7 however is just as smart but her real passion lies in piano and singing (where she excels). The twins are going o.k. and hovering around the top reading groups but are yet to really show where their passion lies.

In short chill, there are different levels of intelligence and your childs passions will begin to emerge in years 5-6, when they do, nurture them and create some islands of excellence in different areas and everything will be o.k.

btw we actually held the second oldest back a year in year 1 as we didn’t feel her emotional maturity was ready for her to move forward, a heart wrenching decision but one we have never regretted now that she has settled in with a great group of friends.

georgesgenitals12:09 pm 26 Oct 10

shaun said :

But onto the subject at hand. Have you considered what your child could give to their classmates by staying with them, rather than trying to move above them?

Target practice. The smartest kids are often the victims of bullying and smartassery, because they are an obvious choice, and are different enough from the rest of the class for it to work.

“While I think sport, chess, caring and recycling are important, so is learning.”

“Gifted children” and chess. A favourite topic of mine. Turns out chess is often about practical application of intelligence (combining memory, assessment, problem solving, and pattern recognition). So when I see parents bring their kids along to various chess activities, and proclaim them ‘gifted’ it is almost certain that their child is going to lose a lot of games to kids who aren’t ‘gifted’, but are ‘smart’. And then it usually goes one of 2 ways. You ether never see them again, or they say “chess isn’t enough of a challenge for my child”, and then you never see them again.

But onto the subject at hand. Have you considered what your child could give to their classmates by staying with them, rather than trying to move above them?

Ooops – typo –
To all those who tell you just to suck it up, THEY obviously have no idea what it is like to be the kid in the class that can learn in 5 minutes what the rest of the class takes three weeks to get even a basic understanding of.

Beejay76 – I know exactly what you are going through.

To all those who tell you just to suck it up, you obviously have no idea what it is like to be the kid in the class that can learn in 5 minutes what the rest of the class takes three weeks to get even a basic understanding of. It is soul destroying. Even if the child is happy to treat school as nothing other than a social experience, for vast slabs of the day, the kid still has to sit and put up with it. And don’t get me started on extension programs – one session a week that is mildly interesting at best.

If a parent of a child with special needs (a disability) came on this forum, no one would tell them to suck it up, that kindy isn’t about learning, and all parents think their children are special. But here’s a child with different special needs – ie they are abnormally smart – and that’s the response.

It’s not about the skills of the kindy teacher. A teacher in charge of 21 kids can only do so much, and its the kids who don’t need help who don’t get much attention. It’s not about pushing the child either – the child finds it all too easy and so no pushing is required.

The system’s solution – to push the child to their learning age (which may be well above their social age) – is not always in the best interest of the child.

All the OP is asking for is a differentiated curriculum, which is what they are supposed to do these days anyway.

creative_canberran11:55 am 26 Oct 10

You’re surprised they don’t know what to do with a gifted child?
I would be thankful to be honest given they have a hard enough time teaching and engaging with the basics much less conveying deeper topics to the minority who would appreciate it.
Hell, we are now at a stage where Monash University reported that 1/3 of their undergraduates had serious deficiencies in basic writing skills.
Having being in an advanced class, I can safely say they’re nothing to write home about either.

Life itself is a classroom and you will learn infinitely more from sources other than school.
Getting involved in many activities and being exposed to a diverse range of information sources will be useful in the long run.
Music and foreign languages too have been demonstrated to increase intelligence and psychological wellbeing but are increasingly overlooked in mainstream school.

The fact is I’m no in University where the standard of teaching is higher. Indeed, we are all learning a lot. But when it comes to what’s happening in the world and undertaking creative tasks, those who use external sources trounce those who rely on it all being laid out for them.

ConanOfCooma11:51 am 26 Oct 10

Dude, where have you been the last 20 years?

The education system sucks. I spent my entire school years bored out of my brains reading my own books after I’d done the work the teacher had set out.

The school doesn’t give a crap, the teacher doesn’t give a crap, the system doesn’t give a crap, and they teach crap. The sooner you aknowledge this you will be able to stop whining about it and start doing something about it, namely injecting your childs mind with all the input you can in your own time.

BTW, in a lot of circles, “Gifted” is the new, polite and PC term, for retarded.

georgesgenitals11:50 am 26 Oct 10

Remember that documentary about when Arnold Schwartzenegger was a kindgarten teacher? I think his journey highlights some really important points, including treatment of the kids as a team and the way he worked to develop a sense of inclusiveness for all involved, even that freaky angry kid with the black hair.

Pommy bastard11:37 am 26 Oct 10

If school isn’t living up to your expectations of rewarding your child for their achievements, why not enter them in beauty pageants instead?

As a child who grew up and attended school from K to 12 and university in Canberra, I feel I have some ground to comment here. I was always in the advanced classes at school, Often primary schools have to mkix classes say a year 2/3 class (which generally means the smarter year 2 kids are in that class). In high school and college the opportunity is there for more advanced learning.

The thing is I learnt far more reading atlases and encyclopedias, watching documentaries, paying attention to the news than I did at school. Since the age of the internet and also travelling the world have been far greater learning exercises. In fact if you are worried about your child so much, when they are old enough take them overseas to Asia or Africa to see how other people really live.

But its Kindergarten, they learn to play with other kids, they learn social skills in what is acceptable and what is not. If you want you child to learn at a faster pace, then you sound much more equipped to do so than any kindergarten teacher is.

p1 said :

Do they really have special programs for the slow kids in kindy? (not the deaf, blind, or otherwise impeded, by just slow?)

My daughter is in kindy, and some kids go off to special sessions – I figured out that these are for kids of varying ability who are from a NESB. Unfortunately she refers to this group as “kids who don’t speak English” (they do).

There is also one kid who is streaks ahead of the class in terms of reading. Fortunately, my child has never referred to him as “gifted”. If this kid was given that label, I don’t think she would like him much.

PickedANickname said :

Maybe you need to move to a better school district or look into a private school education.

would you suggest to a parent of a child with speacial learning needs catering for the underachievers they need to move or fork out for a private education? why do you assume the op has the resources to employ this advice?

i have long thought this group is a much unsung and unsupported group – i was picked out at the end of 4th class [nsw] and sent for 5th and 6th to a nearly local school with an early attempt at an accelerated learning program (though it was more an ‘innovative’ learning program and didn’t really cater for my particular learning style – but that’s another story).

the op is quite right to point out the deficiencies in the system and many of you are quite wrong to lambast them for daring to equate this to ‘dis’abilities learning needs…

that said, kindergarten is as much a place to learn to socialise and there is a huge role (in any case) for parental intervention in the child’s learning, including extracurricula activities and extra challenges in discussing what the child learnt and did that day.

i also agree with others who have suggested you consider putting your daughter into year 2 next year… being the youngest in high school wasn’t too much to bear, but you have several years ahead to guage if you might need to have her repeat a year to get back into her appropriate social milieu…

shadow boxer11:11 am 26 Oct 10

They could get the teachers to run the kindergarten extension programs during the school holidays.

I’ll see myself out —–>

lulu said :

BTW: Those who advocate putting kids into year two when they’re kindy age should think about physical and emotional development (IQ testing doesn’t measure these).

This is certainly true, and it’s not the best option for everyone by any means. I was born early in the year, which helps.

It should be recognised, though, that there’s also a risk that a child who breezes through school without being academically challenged will expect everything in life to come just as easily to them. My brother is similar to the example quoted by george above – he’s far brighter than me (IQ-wise), but found everything too easy never really learned that success in life requires effort. Five years out of uni, he’s putting his engineering degree to use in an entry-level public service job.

To be clear, though: I’m not advocating that the OP definitely should try to get his child skipped ahead – I’m obviously not qualified to make that judgement. I do think it’s beneficial in the right situation, though.

colourful sydney racing identity10:59 am 26 Oct 10

Wow, you think your child is gifted. How unusual.

Any parents on riotact who believe their child is untalented and not gifted in any way? Keep quiet mum.

Beejay76 said: “My daughter is gifted”

My wife is a primary school teacher. Every year at the beginning of 1st term she comes home and we have a laugh about how many parents tell her that their child is “gifted”. Usually it is code for “my child is a spoilt brat”

If you’re able to laugh at yourself, see “Stuff White people Like” on Gifted Children

http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/01/22/17-gifted-children/

When you are a more experienced parent (ie: when your kid has made it to high school or even adulthood) you will probably realize that IQ is not the only indicator of ability.

BTW: Those who advocate putting kids into year two when they’re kindy age should think about physical and emotional development (IQ testing doesn’t measure these).

Aside from that, investigate alternative forms of schooling. Steiner, Bluegum etc… They’re expensive but some parents chose to prioritise appropriate education for children over their own long term financial security, home ownership, flash cars and expensive holidays(and with all your education you should be able to earn a quid or two and possibly een afford all of the above).

…and don’t be so sure that there are adequate services for kids with “special needs”. We assume such services exist until we need to access them. Then we’re often sorely dissappointed.

georgesgenitals10:33 am 26 Oct 10

It’s important to remember that no matter how smart a kid is, their social and emotional intelligence is very important. A friends brother is a real genius – a seriously smart individual who walked through a difficult tertiary degree and won a series of awards, but is practically unemployable.

I think the focus should be on working out how to stimulate and grow the child’s capabilities within the context of the world we live in, rather than by isolating the child and pumping them up academically.

Woody Mann-Caruso10:30 am 26 Oct 10

Schools have scarce resources. They need to prioritise those resources to deliver maximum benefit to the greatest number of kids and minimise later harm to society. Ask your gifted daughter to explain it to you.

My daughter, and others like her, have never received any recognition of their outstanding academic achievements

Oh, FFS – she’s in _kindy_. What ‘outstanding academic achievements’ are you referring to? New proof for the Poincare conjecture? Unified field theory with gravity? Proved that P=NP?

There are so many gifted children around these days that one wonders where all the ordinary ones are hiding.

I learned a lot more about social interactions and dealing with people after joining the workforce than I did while at school. All that school teaches you is how to interact with your peers while both you and they are immature. This isn’t as useful in life as you might think.

In terms of the advantage of leaving college at age 17: one extra year of earning a full-time income, for a start. One less year of operating at well below your potential would be another perk. A year is a long time, it shouldn’t be dismissed lightly.

It’s all about inclusion these days, the mainstream class being able to accommodate and educate the whole range of kids, including extending those who need it.

So perhaps there are things you aren’t seeing that are going on because her teacher is including them in the main program?

JessicaNumber10:01 am 26 Oct 10

Johnboy I couldn’t disagree more.

Beejay76, making bright kids “special needs” is probably giving them the wrong idea about themselves. Gifted and talented students are the reasons schools offer extracurricular activities. Take advantage of them, keeping her in something she finds difficult. For me that was music and a semester or two of weekly work experience in the primary school. I’m now a music teacher.

The most important thing kids learn from a good extracurricular programme might just be fearlessness in facing challenge and change.

Don’t be afraid to shop around schools even at the preschool/kindergarten level. It can vary a lot from one teacher and set of kids to another and even more with an independent curriculum. Try a bilingual school or one with strong arts focus if she doesn’t need as much time on her three Rs.

Good luck!

luther_bendross10:00 am 26 Oct 10

I understand what you’re saying here, however the key word is ‘kindergarten’. Maybe they’re trying to teach her some intangibles like getting along with other kids and not looking down her nose at them. I do get your argument about equality and I get that you understand statistics. If my child was below par and I wasn’t getting the right environment at kindy, I’d find some extra-curricular activities to stimulate their needs instead of dumping my woes on the school. You are correct that gifted children should not be getting ‘the raw deal’, however this does not apply exclusively to gifted children. I’d also argue that these certificates that your daughter has not been the recipient of are issued for two reasons you’ve overlooked: 1. To encourage those kids who aren’t as amazing as yours; and 2. To show kindergarten-aged children that there’s more to life than academia, like sandpits, cleaning up and finger painting. I hope that as your daughter gets older that she receives the attention she requires, however I hope that in the meantime she’s allowed and encouraged to be a kid.

Home schooling: it’s not just for cultists!

Seriously, though – after much campaigning by my mother, I was put straight into year 2 when I started primary school. If your kid’s truly bright then that might be the option for you. Extension programs can only take you so far, and I look at it as having given me an extra year in the real world that would otherwise have been wasted in school. Kind of sucked hitting drinking age a year after all of my friends, though.

bright as a kid might be their physical and emotional development is unlikely to also be ahead of the game.

if they’re smart they’re already going to struggle to fit in, making them younger, smaller, and less emotionally intelligent than their peers will make it really hard.

When they’re 30 what will the advantage have been of finishing college while still 17?

Do they really have special programs for the slow kids in kindy? (not the deaf, blind, or otherwise impeded, by just slow?)

As someone who on occasion got pretty bored at different stages of school, I suggest you teach the kid to immerse themselves in a good book.

PickedANickname9:49 am 26 Oct 10

Hmmm my child’s public school (he is in Kindy) has much more than this on offer (awards for reading, maths, science and my son received a language award)and my nephew’s public school is linked in with Radford for gifted studies.

Honestly if your child needs extra stimulation you should probably do that yourself.

Kindy is much more about school readiness, friendship, the routine and socialisation. The foundations of school life. I wouldn’t be too worried that your child isn’t working on string theory yet. How are her interpersonal skills and relating to other classmates? Is she proactively seeking out knowledge by asking questions in class or volunteering to do extra projects?

Maybe you need to move to a better school district or look into a private school education.

(d) All of the above.

+1

Relax, teach her some extra stuff on the side if you are that worried

[i]Supporting those with a disability is important.[/i]

Supporting those with a disability is patronizing and condescending, and it singles them out. What everyone needs is accessibility. It doesn’t hurt you to have to walk up a ramp, use a toilet cubicle with railings, or have Braille next to your lift buttons.

johnboy said :

The thing is the number one gift an education can give a gifted child is how to rub along with the dull slobs they’ll have to live the rest of their lives surrounded by.

But isn’t every Canberra child *gifted*?

la mente torbida9:46 am 26 Oct 10

Summarised beautifully….both my daughters were gifted as well…education is 24/7

DeadlySchnauzer9:36 am 26 Oct 10

Dude its kindergarten, get over it. Primary school is not about learning, its about interacting and socialising and running around and falling out of trees a few times. Be happy that your daughter can cope with the learning side easily and let her be a little kid. I’m sure she will get her time to shine when college/university rolls around.

Clown Killer9:36 am 26 Oct 10

I’ll let you in on a secret. Every parent believes that their child is gifted and deserves better, closer, more attention then anyone elses. It’s a natural response born of 2.5million years of hominid evolution.

The thing is the number one gift an education can give a gifted child is how to rub along with the dull slobs they’ll have to live the rest of their lives surrounded by.

Everything else they can teach themselves.

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