28 November 2013

New sex and gender diversity legislation introduced today

| Barcham
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New legislation to improve the legal recognition of sex and gender diverse people in the ACT will be introduced in the Legislative Assembly today, says Simon Corbell.

The biggest and most important change is that individuals no longer have to undergo surgery to legally change their sex on their birth certificate.

I’ve met people who have saved for years in order to afford sexual reassignment surgery, and that whole time they’ve had to endure having their legal documentation listing them as the wrong sex.

So this is a good thing and it’s nice to see Canberra leading the way here.

The legal recognition of sex and gender diverse people in the ACT community will be improved by legislation introduced in the Legislative Assembly today, said Attorney-General, Simon Corbell.

“In today’s society the physical characteristics that identify a person as a particular sex are external characteristics that are socially recognisable. There is no need for exact knowledge of a person’s sexual organs, and no justification for requiring unwanted surgery,” said Mr Corbell.

“Although the Births Deaths and Marriages Registration Amendment Bill 2013 affects a relatively small number of people in our community, these changes will have a large and positive impact on this section of the community. Until now, these community members have been unfairly disadvantaged by outmoded restrictions on sex and gender recognition,” he said.

In an Australian first, the Bill removes the legislative requirement that a person wanting to change their record of sex on a birth certificate has to undergo sexual reassignment surgery. This is replaced with a requirement that they have received ‘appropriate clinical treatment’.

“This amendment aligns the ACT’s legislation with the Australian Government’s Guidelines on the recognition of sex and gender, and Australian Passport Office policy, so that there is consistency for sex and gender diverse people in the ACT Community.

“The Bill contains amendments to help sex and gender diverse people to exercise fundamental human rights, including the right to privacy and reputation, recognition and equality before the law, and the protection of family and children,” Mr Corbell said.

Other amendments made by the Bill include the declaration that interstate recognition certificates are, for the purposes of Territory law, evidence that the person has the sex stated in the certificate; amending the definition of ‘intersex’ to better reflect the federal definition; and extending the time parents have to register the sex of a child after birth from 60 days to six months.

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gooterz said :

Why does sex need to be recorded? Oh wait it doesn’t.

I’ve done a bit of recording, didn’t have to, but did.

apstoo: “I have just as much right to an existance without harassment as anyone else does.”

Damn right, as much as anyone else not hurting anybody should.

But hell, townies seem to have a problem even if you dress a little differently. F*ck them. You stick to your guns. They need to learn tolerance. You’re just going about your business being yourself. Not like you’re hurting anyone else. They should understand this.

You’ve just as much right to exist, work, and live as anyone else, and it was pretty crap reading about how you had issues with work, or even going to a pub. Stuff most of us take for granted. That’s horrible! I’m pretty sure you need to pay the bills like the rest of us, socialise or whatever all the same.

Personally I find this place very intolerant if you don’t fit into the mainstream’s porcelain idea of “normal”. There really has to be a crackdown on hate crimes / harassment here.

Robertson said :

apstoo said :

Why must I hide who I am day in and day out just to survive?

It’s called discretion, and at some point most people grow up and learn to keep their private lives to themselves. For most people, being boring is easy. For others, it takes some effort.

Here’s the thing though: many people are not married, many people don’t go to the swimming pool, and I’m sure most don’t give a flying ^%$# if the ABS knows they exist or not. Things are fine without these things. You just don’t need them.
So stop trying to get a rise out of people by focusing on crap that doesn’t matter and learn to live a peaceful life.

Robertson do you hide the fact that you are a man? Are you discreet too? If not why not?

Of course you don’t and neither do I. The reason we don’t hide it is because our gender is fundamental to our identity.

Don’t believe gender is fundamental to your identity? Try this thought experiment: try to describe yourself from first principles. It would go something like this: “(1) I’m human. (2) I’m male. (3) …”

Now try and imagine that answering point (2) wasn’t easy. Wouldn’t that make it difficult for you? Would that still be “crap that doesn’t matter”? Not being able to get passed point two of “who am I?”

Here let me use an analogy that we both might agree on to show how your comment is offensive.

I, and I suspect you too, hate the burqa*. I suspect a reason we both dislike it is because it denies the women who wear it their identity. It is my understanding that the supporters of the burqa justify it by saying that women need to be modest; to be discreet.

Your demand that gender diverse people should also be discreet, is to metaphorically demand they wear a burqa over their gender diversity. Your demanding that they hide their identity too.

* Note: whilst I don’t like the burqa, I do not support laws to ban it.

Robertson said :

I pay rates in order to get water, roads and garbage collected.
I don’t pay rates so an army of underemployed third-raters can indulge in their legislative experiments with social engineering that benefits nobody.

What tosh.

We also pay rates and taxes to run the legislature. You know… “the deliberative assembly with the power to pass, amend and repeal laws”. Of course it is in the remit of the ACT Legislative Assembly to ensure that the laws governing the ACT are fair, just and non-discriminatory. Take your rubbish statements elsewhere.

Robertson said :

apstoo said :

Why must I hide who I am day in and day out just to survive?

It’s called discretion, and at some point most people grow up and learn to keep their private lives to themselves. For most people, being boring is easy. For others, it takes some effort.

Here’s the thing though: many people are not married, many people don’t go to the swimming pool, and I’m sure most don’t give a flying ^%$# if the ABS knows they exist or not. Things are fine without these things. You just don’t need them.
So stop trying to get a rise out of people by focusing on crap that doesn’t matter and learn to live a peaceful life.

I pay rates in order to get water, roads and garbage collected.
I don’t pay rates so an army of underemployed third-raters can indulge in their legislative experiments with social engineering that benefits nobody.

Yep, another bigot. I dare you to tell an Aboriginal person to be discreet. I dare you to tell an Asian person to be discreet. I dare you to tell someone with Downs to be discreet. I bet you don’t tell hetrosexual couple kissing public to be discrete.
Stuff your discreetness. I am. But I have just as much right to an existance without harassment as anyone else does.

c_c™ said :

Robertson said :

CrocodileGandhi said :

It does benefit some people.

I see no empiric evidence that that is true. Reinforcing somebody’s denial of reality could well be more harmful than it is good.

What we *do* know is that the jumped-up City Council with delusions of grandeur we have just can’t help itself meddling with things that should be well outside its remit.

They have the worst-run hospital in the country, but instead of hiring more nurses, they hire more lawyers to &^%$ around writing unnecessary legislation, presumably to give its ludicrously overpaid and under-employed “Human Rights Commission” something to do.

You’re an insecure bigot, at least have the balls to just say so rather than making up wild excuses.

+1. Disgusting.

Robertson said :

CrocodileGandhi said :

It does benefit some people.

I see no empiric evidence that that is true. Reinforcing somebody’s denial of reality could well be more harmful than it is good.

What we *do* know is that the jumped-up City Council with delusions of grandeur we have just can’t help itself meddling with things that should be well outside its remit.

They have the worst-run hospital in the country, but instead of hiring more nurses, they hire more lawyers to &^%$ around writing unnecessary legislation, presumably to give its ludicrously overpaid and under-employed “Human Rights Commission” something to do.

You’re an insecure bigot, at least have the balls to just say so rather than making up wild excuses.

The hostility expressed towards this legislation reveals how some people don’t like anyone or anything that challenges their view of the world. Why should people have to conform to some great grey notion of normality? How do the people who make such crude assertions about what is normal have such confidence that their way of being is the only possibility?

Unfortunately, some of these people go out of their way to impose their world view on people who don’t conform, using ridicule or violence.

I have seen a group of young people start laughing quite openly at a person with a physical disability. If that’s how they act towards that kind of difference, imagine how they would treat those who they can’t easily place into the categories ‘male’ or ‘female’.

CrocodileGandhi said :

It does benefit some people.

I see no empiric evidence that that is true. Reinforcing somebody’s denial of reality could well be more harmful than it is good.

What we *do* know is that the jumped-up City Council with delusions of grandeur we have just can’t help itself meddling with things that should be well outside its remit.

They have the worst-run hospital in the country, but instead of hiring more nurses, they hire more lawyers to &^%$ around writing unnecessary legislation, presumably to give its ludicrously overpaid and under-employed “Human Rights Commission” something to do.

nobody said :

Beyond Blue recently launched this e-handbook to increase the level of understanding about gender diversity, and those who are making comments about mental illness should have a read, especially this section on Myths and Realities about Gender Diversity.
http://familieslikemine.beyondblue.org.au/#folio=45

Your link makes assertions that are not in agreement with reality.

“Gender identity disorder is classified as a medical disorder by the ICD-10 CM[6] and DSM-5 (called Gender Dysphoria)”

So, it could be a genetic disorder, or a hormonal disorder, however things like this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23324476
suggest it is most often a disorder not caused by any physical cause and therefore a disorder of the mind.

Matthew said :

On the subject of factual.. UC, not ANU…

I apologise, Matthew, for your inadvertant promotion.

Robertson said :

apstoo said :

voytek3 said :

Sorry to point out reality to those people with obvious mental issues but you are either male or female. Whatever you think or surgery is not going to ever change this fact. If you disagree you are wrong.

Hi Voytek3. You are incredibly wrong, and you have just breached the new amendments to the federal sex discrimination act by harassing gender diverse people by stating that they have mental health issues. How about you wake up to yourself? Gender diverse people exist, and yeah, we fit somewhere in between.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3QOTMCVREE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv1yk2Va9qc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNb5RNu25Uk

Why is it that so many hetronormatives think it is okay to harass or discriminate against people who are born different? Do you think it is okay to harass people based on disability, race, eye color, height, age?

Why is it that you people are such bullies? WTF is a “heteronormative”? Somebody who actually grasps reality? Not much of an insult…

It is a plain fact that sex is determined by our DNA. If there’s something going on in your brain that conflicts with your DNA, that would appear to me to be an obvious mental health issue.

Beyond Blue recently launched this e-handbook to increase the level of understanding about gender diversity, and those who are making comments about mental illness should have a read, especially this section on Myths and Realities about Gender Diversity.
http://familieslikemine.beyondblue.org.au/#folio=45

Robertson said :

nobody said :

At these odds we may all know someone who is gender diverse.

Indeed, the ANU’s own unforgettable:
http://www.michellesullivan.org/

For some more factual information

On the subject of factual.. UC, not ANU…

CrocodileGandhi9:26 am 02 Dec 13

When reading my above comment, remove one specifically in the second sentence. Your choice as to which one.

CrocodileGandhi9:25 am 02 Dec 13

Robertson said :

I pay rates in order to get water, roads and garbage collected.
I don’t pay rates so an army of underemployed third-raters can indulge in their legislative experiments with social engineering that benefits nobody.

It does benefit some people. Specifically, those people that this legislation is specifically directed toward. It benefits them greatly. What it doesn’t do is harm anyone. So I’m not quite sure why you’re getting your knickers quite so twisted.

nobody said :

At these odds we may all know someone who is gender diverse.

Indeed, the ANU’s own unforgettable:
http://www.michellesullivan.org/

For some more factual information than what is provided in your links:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21364939
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23324476

apstoo said :

Why must I hide who I am day in and day out just to survive?

It’s called discretion, and at some point most people grow up and learn to keep their private lives to themselves. For most people, being boring is easy. For others, it takes some effort.

Here’s the thing though: many people are not married, many people don’t go to the swimming pool, and I’m sure most don’t give a flying ^%$# if the ABS knows they exist or not. Things are fine without these things. You just don’t need them.
So stop trying to get a rise out of people by focusing on crap that doesn’t matter and learn to live a peaceful life.

I pay rates in order to get water, roads and garbage collected.
I don’t pay rates so an army of underemployed third-raters can indulge in their legislative experiments with social engineering that benefits nobody.

Beyond Blue released an e-handbook last week, full of useful information for individuals, families, and friends who through circumstance need to deal with LGBTI issues.
Families Like Mine – http://familieslikemine.beyondblue.org.au/#folio=1

There is a section on Gender Diversity, which would be a good read for the ignorant who have posted, and also a good read for those struggling with gender diversity themselves.
Gender Diversity – http://familieslikemine.beyondblue.org.au/#folio=28

The e-booklet covers prevalence, stating 1 in 150 have strong and persistent feelings they are the wrong gender, and 1 in 500 will transition with surgery to another gender.
At these odds we may all know someone who is gender diverse.

apstoo said :

Why is it that so called normal people treat people who are different like s***?

Normal people don’t – I suppose that’s why you said “so-called”. The arseholes who oppose this are anything but normal.

Why is it that so called normal people treat people who are different like s***? How can you justify your actions? Is it even remotely fair to harass someone because of the way they were born? Because I was born with a genetic difference I have had to put up with constant harassment and bullying from narrow minded individuals. I can’t wear the clothing I’d prefer to because when I have people have attacked me. I can’t be myself. I can’t go to a pub because drunken idiots harass men and make unwelcome insults and ask rude and stupid questions like “Are you a man or a woman?”. I’ve now twice been attacked in pubs. Staff did NOTHING to stop it and the second time when I complained about harassment they told me to piss off. I’ve been harassed at a local Canberra swimming pool and again, the staff joined in. I’ve missed out on jobs and job promotions because I don’t fit in the so called “normal” image of gender. I’ve been turned away from homeless shelters because they can’t figure out how to accommodate me. I’ve been told I don’t exist by the Australian Bureau of Statistics. It is illegal for me to get married to anyone at all in this country because marriage is “between a man and a woman to the exclusion of all others”. Even here in the ACT the new law allowing gay marriage deliberately did not include allowances for Intersex people. I’ve had doctors perform unnecessary surgeries on me. I have had doctors lie to my face about all sorts of things. I’ve been sexually abuse and assaulted by bigots, narrow minded idiots and even APS co-workers. I’ve been physically assaulted in places you’d normally consider safe. I’ve twice had people try to kill me.
All because I don’t fit into the gender stereotypes.
So what gives you people the right to do that? What gives you the right too treat me like s*** CONSTANTLY? What gives you bigots on the Riot Act the right to treat people who are different like crap? Di you treat Downs syndrome people like that? What about disabled people? What about people from different countries? I expect you would, because I have found that bigots usually don’t stop harassing people based on just one difference.
To all of you people posting that you hate gender diverse people, wake up you yourselves. You are a bigot, no matter how you try to justify it. Why don’t you stop and think about the harm you are doing? How can you justify treating someone like shit and putting them through hell because they were born different from you? Why must I hide who I am day in and day out just to survive?

Sorry, I really do need to express myself more precisely. I was exploring the implications of CraigT’s extraordinary statement that trans people are just trying to stir up trouble for fun and profit and pointing put that such a hypothetical person would be even more in need of help than what we understand a transgendered or intersex person to be, although the nature of that help would be very different.

I’m told than transgendered people require medical and legal support and I accept that the experts and transgendered people know what they are talking about.

I’m pointing out that CraigT’s hypothetical transfaker would be such a bizarre individual that the psychological support required would be staggering.

Basically I’m making fun of the transfaker premise and debunking the conclusion that transfakers deserve “no sympathy.”

And for the record, I have no opinion on the science of transsexualism and transgender but my human opinion is that it sounds really difficult and anyone going through that struggle deserves whatever help we as a society can reasonably provide in their very best interests.

BimboGeek said :

CraigT said :

I’m perfectly happy if people with genuine medical problems get taxpayer-funded surgery to sort them out.

If you are XXY, and somebody has registered you as “Male” or “Female” and it turns out that was a bad approximation, then by all means, have your birth certificate changed and have taxpayer-funded surgery. Not a problem.

But if you’re just trying to spit in society’s eye by being difficult, no sympathy.

Do you really think people are doing this?

Like, it’s one thing to demand taxpayer funding for your “dodgy back” or your “groundbreaking sculpture” but do you really think people are actually changing their sex just to amuse themselves for free?

I imagine that changing the person’s sex would actually be cheaper than identifying and treating whatever made them think that having their reproductive organs mutilated would be fun.

It would be like throwing a bum a “bugger off and leave me alone” dollar, but for epic mental health problems.

So trans people are just crazy according to you, Bimbogeek?

CraigT said :

I’m perfectly happy if people with genuine medical problems get taxpayer-funded surgery to sort them out.

If you are XXY, and somebody has registered you as “Male” or “Female” and it turns out that was a bad approximation, then by all means, have your birth certificate changed and have taxpayer-funded surgery. Not a problem.

But if you’re just trying to spit in society’s eye by being difficult, no sympathy.

Do you really think people are doing this?

Like, it’s one thing to demand taxpayer funding for your “dodgy back” or your “groundbreaking sculpture” but do you really think people are actually changing their sex just to amuse themselves for free?

I imagine that changing the person’s sex would actually be cheaper than identifying and treating whatever made them think that having their reproductive organs mutilated would be fun.

It would be like throwing a bum a “bugger off and leave me alone” dollar, but for epic mental health problems.

🙂 Most excellent. Like all governments, ours screws up regularly, but this makes me proud to be a Canberran. Well done, grubbyment.

Antagonist said :

apstoo said :

… blah blah …

If you are going to argue on the Internet do it like a pro and check your facts first.

If you want to appear both credible and intelligent anywhere, do it like a pro and stop referencing Wikipedia.

And maybe he could stop calling rare chromosomal abnormalities something there is “plenty” of.

I’m perfectly happy if people with genuine medical problems get taxpayer-funded surgery to sort them out.

If you are XXY, and somebody has registered you as “Male” or “Female” and it turns out that was a bad approximation, then by all means, have your birth certificate changed and have taxpayer-funded surgery. Not a problem.

But if you’re just trying to spit in society’s eye by being difficult, no sympathy.

snoopydoc said :

So would you describe an XY karyotyped individual with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome as male, or female?

Male.

The vast majority of people suffering from AIS don’t go prancing around in frocks.

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd7:17 am 30 Nov 13

thebrownstreak69 said :

Barcham said :

You are entitled to your opinions, and we welcome you to share them here. However if you cannot find a way to state them without name calling or obviously seeking to cause offence then you are not entitled to share them here.

And yet we have many threads riddled with personal attacks and nasty insults, including from site moderators.

That said, if you are actually able to moderate in this way, Riot ACT will be better for it.

The thing is, if it’s fact then it’s neither a insult or a attack.

apstoo said :

… blah blah …

If you are going to argue on the Internet do it like a pro and check your facts first.

If you want to appear both credible and intelligent anywhere, do it like a pro and stop referencing Wikipedia.

Solidarity said :

Jeez, all I said was that males have Y chromosomes and females don’t, nothing about denying people the ability to identify as whatever the hell they want…

I think some people on here are too willing to jump on the offensive without thinking things through… Males have Y chromosomes and females don’t. That’s just the way it is, bureaucracy can’t change that… It wasn’t my decision to make humans that way…

Some have YYX others XXY. XXY usually appear as women without the internal plumbing.

Its all usually a compromise between egalitarianism and genetic elitism.

I really disliked the parents who are changing their little boy into a little woman because he liked playing with dolls and pink things. Don’t children normally like what they see and witness in their environment (mother was of course a single mum, low income), because we will teach courses on transgender kids, and ignore the fact there is very little gender difference. It screams out that there is something seriously and totally wrong with this world.

Solidarity said :

Jeez, all I said was that males have Y chromosomes and females don’t, nothing about denying people the ability to identify as whatever the hell they want…

I think some people on here are too willing to jump on the offensive without thinking things through… Males have Y chromosomes and females don’t. That’s just the way it is, bureaucracy can’t change that… It wasn’t my decision to make humans that way…

I agree that some people are too sensitive and quick to hide behind the ‘you are a bully/bigot/whatever’ flag. *Constructive* discussion and debate is necessary, so harden the f**k up!

Now about the Y chromosome thing …

XX-XY = humans (ignoring those people I know people with XXX, XXY and XYY).
XX-XO = insects. I guess there is no such thing as a male insect?
ZZ-ZW = birds, some reptiles. It seems my pet Galah is neither male nor female.

Once upon a time I might have agreed with you, but it seems the world is not X and Y, black and white, or any other oversimplification for that matter. It is time people pulled their collective heads out of the sand and educated themselves.

Roundhead89 said :

This is ridiculous. The whole female impersonator thing was started as a stage act by Carlotta in the late 1960s and it was only ever intended as a joke. It wasn’t real. To now have people mutilating their bodies and having the law encouraging this is tragic.

Hate to rain on your parade, but I am pretty sure Carlotta was the first person in Australia to undergo ‘gender reassignment’. She asked to have it done in Australia, and was reluctantly granted her wish after threatening to go to an Asian country to have it done regardless of the decision of surgeons here. It has never been a joke. As her autobiography says: “He did it her way”.

Solidarity said :

Jeez, all I said was that males have Y chromosomes and females don’t, nothing about denying people the ability to identify as whatever the hell they want…

I think some people on here are too willing to jump on the offensive without thinking things through… Males have Y chromosomes and females don’t. That’s just the way it is, bureaucracy can’t change that… It wasn’t my decision to make humans that way…

Ahh, you are not quite correct there Solidarity. Plenty of females have a Y chromosone;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_chromosome#Variations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome
To quote the latter article;
Androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) is a condition that results in the partial or complete inability of the cell to respond to androgens.[1][2][3] The unresponsiveness of the cell to the presence of androgenic hormones can impair or prevent the masculinization of male genitalia in the developing fetus, as well as the development of male secondary sexual characteristics at puberty, but does not significantly impair female genital or sexual development.[3][4] As such, the insensitivity to androgens is clinically significant only when it occurs in genetic males (i.e. individuals with a Y-chromosome, or more specifically, an SRY gene).[1] Clinical phenotypes in these individuals range from a normal male habitus with mild spermatogenic defect or reduced secondary terminal hair, to a full female habitus, despite the presence of a Y-chromosome.[1][5][6][7][8][9]

If you are going to argue on the Internet do it like a pro and check your facts first.

Watson said :

I know this is a public forum that promotes free speech, but are there any consequences for posters blatantly violating anti-discrimination legislation? Wouldn’t the moderators reject blatantly racist posts for example? And if so, shouldn’t the same rule apply to someone calling someone with a genetic disorder “faulty”?

It makes me feel very uncomfortable, to say the least.

It would make a very interesting piece of case law and legal precedent that’s for sure. Personally I think Barcham is doing a good thing by trying to let both sides have a say, and I think he is doing that pretty well. But it could be productive to get together with the mob from the Eagle’s nest to say “Hey, can we take you to court for a nominal sum of say $1 with pro-bono lawyers just to get some legal prcedence in place and by the way some one seems to have dropped $1 on the floor. It’s not mine.”
Then the next time some bigot did decided to post abusive crap on an Australian forum abusing gender diverse people they could be charged / sued and the legal precedence would be in place to slap tthem down.

Solidarity said :

Jeez, all I said was that males have Y chromosomes and females don’t, nothing about denying people the ability to identify as whatever the hell they want…

I think some people on here are too willing to jump on the offensive without thinking things through… Males have Y chromosomes and females don’t. That’s just the way it is, bureaucracy can’t change that… It wasn’t my decision to make humans that way…

So would you describe an XY karyotyped individual with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome as male, or female?

Jeez, all I said was that males have Y chromosomes and females don’t, nothing about denying people the ability to identify as whatever the hell they want…

I think some people on here are too willing to jump on the offensive without thinking things through… Males have Y chromosomes and females don’t. That’s just the way it is, bureaucracy can’t change that… It wasn’t my decision to make humans that way…

Barcham said :

thebrownstreak69 said :

Barcham said :

You are entitled to your opinions, and we welcome you to share them here. However if you cannot find a way to state them without name calling or obviously seeking to cause offence then you are not entitled to share them here.

And yet we have many threads riddled with personal attacks and nasty insults, including from site moderators.

That said, if you are actually able to moderate in this way, Riot ACT will be better for it.

We aren’t perfect, but we’ll try.

It wasn’t criticism of the moderators. I understand the difficulty in finding that balance. I was just wondering about the legal perspective. (I’m also not an expert in the details of anti-discrimination legislation, so not sure if what was written would be illegal in any context.)

thebrownstreak691:42 pm 29 Nov 13

Barcham said :

thebrownstreak69 said :

Barcham said :

You are entitled to your opinions, and we welcome you to share them here. However if you cannot find a way to state them without name calling or obviously seeking to cause offence then you are not entitled to share them here.

And yet we have many threads riddled with personal attacks and nasty insults, including from site moderators.

That said, if you are actually able to moderate in this way, Riot ACT will be better for it.

We aren’t perfect, but we’ll try.

I hope you do.

thebrownstreak69 said :

Barcham said :

You are entitled to your opinions, and we welcome you to share them here. However if you cannot find a way to state them without name calling or obviously seeking to cause offence then you are not entitled to share them here.

And yet we have many threads riddled with personal attacks and nasty insults, including from site moderators.

That said, if you are actually able to moderate in this way, Riot ACT will be better for it.

We aren’t perfect, but we’ll try.

Watson said :

And if so, shouldn’t the same rule apply to someone calling someone with a genetic disorder “faulty”?

Are we going to be redefining the word “disorder” to mean “not faulty” now are we?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c

thebrownstreak691:20 pm 29 Nov 13

Barcham said :

You are entitled to your opinions, and we welcome you to share them here. However if you cannot find a way to state them without name calling or obviously seeking to cause offence then you are not entitled to share them here.

And yet we have many threads riddled with personal attacks and nasty insults, including from site moderators.

That said, if you are actually able to moderate in this way, Riot ACT will be better for it.

The ignorance and bigotry on display in this forum boggles the mind.

DUB said :

Barcham said :

Watson said :

I know this is a public forum that promotes free speech, but are there any consequences for posters blatantly violating anti-discrimination legislation? Wouldn’t the moderators reject blatantly racist posts for example? And if so, shouldn’t the same rule apply to someone calling someone with a genetic disorder “faulty”?

It makes me feel very uncomfortable, to say the least.

The difficulty here lies in finding the balance between not offending people, letting anyone have their say, representing different points of view, and encouraging discussion (and hopefully increasing understanding through that).

I don’t claim to be perfect at finding that balance point yet, and perhaps I’ve let too much bile through the filter, but I do feel it’s important to let both sides have a say… even if one side are being offensively ignorant.

I apologise for making you feel uncomfortable, I’ll keep working on that balance.

Well said Barcham, don’t let the emotionally unbalanced people to influence your work.

I think you misunderstood me.

In fact your previous comment is one of the few I have deleted from this thread.

You are entitled to your opinions, and we welcome you to share them here. However if you cannot find a way to state them without name calling or obviously seeking to cause offence then you are not entitled to share them here.

Barcham said :

Watson said :

I know this is a public forum that promotes free speech, but are there any consequences for posters blatantly violating anti-discrimination legislation? Wouldn’t the moderators reject blatantly racist posts for example? And if so, shouldn’t the same rule apply to someone calling someone with a genetic disorder “faulty”?

It makes me feel very uncomfortable, to say the least.

The difficulty here lies in finding the balance between not offending people, letting anyone have their say, representing different points of view, and encouraging discussion (and hopefully increasing understanding through that).

I don’t claim to be perfect at finding that balance point yet, and perhaps I’ve let too much bile through the filter, but I do feel it’s important to let both sides have a say… even if one side are being offensively ignorant.

I apologise for making you feel uncomfortable, I’ll keep working on that balance.

Well said Barcham, don’t let the emotionally unbalanced people to influence your work.

Watson said :

I know this is a public forum that promotes free speech, but are there any consequences for posters blatantly violating anti-discrimination legislation? Wouldn’t the moderators reject blatantly racist posts for example? And if so, shouldn’t the same rule apply to someone calling someone with a genetic disorder “faulty”?

It makes me feel very uncomfortable, to say the least.

The difficulty here lies in finding the balance between not offending people, letting anyone have their say, representing different points of view, and encouraging discussion (and hopefully increasing understanding through that).

I don’t claim to be perfect at finding that balance point yet, and perhaps I’ve let too much bile through the filter, but I do feel it’s important to let both sides have a say… even if one side are being offensively ignorant.

I apologise for making you feel uncomfortable, I’ll keep working on that balance.

I know this is a public forum that promotes free speech, but are there any consequences for posters blatantly violating anti-discrimination legislation? Wouldn’t the moderators reject blatantly racist posts for example? And if so, shouldn’t the same rule apply to someone calling someone with a genetic disorder “faulty”?

It makes me feel very uncomfortable, to say the least.

thebrownstreak6911:05 am 29 Nov 13

Robertson said :

apstoo said :

voytek3 said :

Sorry to point out reality to those people with obvious mental issues but you are either male or female. Whatever you think or surgery is not going to ever change this fact. If you disagree you are wrong.

Hi Voytek3. You are incredibly wrong, and you have just breached the new amendments to the federal sex discrimination act by harassing gender diverse people by stating that they have mental health issues. How about you wake up to yourself? Gender diverse people exist, and yeah, we fit somewhere in between.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3QOTMCVREE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv1yk2Va9qc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNb5RNu25Uk

Why is it that so many hetronormatives think it is okay to harass or discriminate against people who are born different? Do you think it is okay to harass people based on disability, race, eye color, height, age?

Why is it that you people are such bullies? WTF is a “heteronormative”? Somebody who actually grasps reality? Not much of an insult…

It is a plain fact that sex is determined by our DNA. If there’s something going on in your brain that conflicts with your DNA, that would appear to me to be an obvious mental health issue.

Bullying is pretty standard on RiotACT. I’d suggest you get used to it.

Then = than, stupid autocorrect.

Sex, gender, and sexuality are all very different things and carry different qualities, but depending on the policy model you’re using you may want one, some, all, or even an expanded series of definitions.
(DoH has even further classifications then the common series, covering all sorts of permutations)

apstoo said :

Why is it that so many hetronormatives think it is okay to harass or discriminate against people who are born different? Do you think it is okay to harass people based on disability, race, eye color, height, age?

Oh yeah, and I $#@%^&* hate short people. They creep me out. I have to listen to Randy Newman every morning just to get the courage to leave the house.

apstoo said :

voytek3 said :

Sorry to point out reality to those people with obvious mental issues but you are either male or female. Whatever you think or surgery is not going to ever change this fact. If you disagree you are wrong.

Hi Voytek3. You are incredibly wrong, and you have just breached the new amendments to the federal sex discrimination act by harassing gender diverse people by stating that they have mental health issues. How about you wake up to yourself? Gender diverse people exist, and yeah, we fit somewhere in between.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3QOTMCVREE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv1yk2Va9qc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNb5RNu25Uk

Why is it that so many hetronormatives think it is okay to harass or discriminate against people who are born different? Do you think it is okay to harass people based on disability, race, eye color, height, age?

Why is it that you people are such bullies? WTF is a “heteronormative”? Somebody who actually grasps reality? Not much of an insult…

It is a plain fact that sex is determined by our DNA. If there’s something going on in your brain that conflicts with your DNA, that would appear to me to be an obvious mental health issue.

annus_horribilis said :

So what gender are those with XXY chromsomes, and non specific genetalia? They do exist.

People with chromosomal disorders clearly do not belong to either one of the two sexes present in our sexually-differentiated species. Maybe they should be recorded as “N/A”? Or simply “faulty”?

I have no idea why you people confuse “gender” with “sex”, but I suspect you are a/ monoglots, and b/ lacking in science education.

Why does sex need to be recorded? Oh wait it doesn’t.

Solidarity said :

’tis all in the chromosomes.

It’s just like that

And that’s the way it is.

voytek3 said :

Sorry to point out reality to those people with obvious mental issues but you are either male or female. Whatever you think or surgery is not going to ever change this fact. If you disagree you are wrong.

Things are not always black and white in the real world. A friend of mine has a baby with boy chromosomes, externally appears to be female, however has no uterus.

PantsMan said :

F*&k! Me! Dead!

That can be arranged. However, if you enjoy it, it’ll cost you.

voytek3 said :

Sorry to point out reality to those people with obvious mental issues but you are either male or female. Whatever you think or surgery is not going to ever change this fact. If you disagree you are wrong.

Hi Voytek3. You are incredibly wrong, and you have just breached the new amendments to the federal sex discrimination act by harassing gender diverse people by stating that they have mental health issues. How about you wake up to yourself? Gender diverse people exist, and yeah, we fit somewhere in between.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3QOTMCVREE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv1yk2Va9qc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNb5RNu25Uk

Why is it that so many hetronormatives think it is okay to harass or discriminate against people who are born different? Do you think it is okay to harass people based on disability, race, eye color, height, age?

I’m not surprised by the decision, only the reaction of people like PantsMan, Solidaritylidarity and Voytek and even then mostly because _they had their chance to provide input and did nothing_.

E.g.: Bureau of Stats has had a submission round regarding the capture of, classification of, and management of sex, gender, and indigenous codings and related data series for a while, but it closed in February.

At an industry level, the policies of AIHW, Dept of Health, Dept of Human Services, Dept of Social Services, Indigenous Policy, Departments of Justice (prisons), Childcare, WA Health, Hospital Pricing, and other data consuming agencies have all used similar stances for years, but the ACT had been the trigger for a number of these…
Nearly everybody else with an interest has been managing under a Person(sex-biological: Male/Female/Intersex/[Not collected or described adequately], gender-identity: Male/Female/Intersex/[Not collected or described adequately], Intersex ICD-10-AM edit indicator:Y/N/[Unknown]) series of attributes variously since 2003 (when the ACT required the third intersex code), and middle of this year (when Federal policy caught up, but it’s still technically at a Proposal status item in METEOR due to bureaucracy taking _forever_ with the Meteor process…)

If having paper that recognises “Some people have sex organs that are unrecognizable or multiple genitals of more than one sex” is important to a certain group of people, and this change recognises that then for most purple, so be it.

Personally, if it can do the above while also not doing significant harm to the data quality that I need to deliver serviceable data sets and longitudinal series into the hands of policy makers, so that future policy determinations can be drawn from a sound base.
As far as I can tell this law (assuming it functions as intended) improves my job, by allowing base data capture to more precisely represent real world scenarios.

So this law is for parents that wanted a boy, but got a girl or wanted a girl, but got a boy or are hermaphrodites for real .

annus_horribilis said :

annus_horribilis510030″]’tis all in the chromosomes.

It’s just like that

And that’s the way it is.

So what gender are those with XXY chromsomes, and non specific genetalia? They do exist.

KISS – Keep It Simple Stupid. Either you sit down to pee or you stand up…

BimboGeek said :

If you don’t understand it, stop trying to stand in the way of people who are trying to improve the situation.

The most obvious problem here is intersex where a child has been “assigned” a sex or gender that was the wrong guess.

Transsexualism is also potentially caused by intersex physical factors like a flood of hormones in utero causing development as the “wrong” sex or gender. It might also be a purely psychological problem and if reassignment makes the person completely happy then it seems like a pretty simple solution, just like losing weight can stop you feeling crap about your thunder thighs or dyeing your hair can stop people recoiling in horror at your gingerness.

So pipe down and mind your own business.

Yep, nicely said.

If you don’t understand it, stop trying to stand in the way of people who are trying to improve the situation.

The most obvious problem here is intersex where a child has been “assigned” a sex or gender that was the wrong guess.

Transsexualism is also potentially caused by intersex physical factors like a flood of hormones in utero causing development as the “wrong” sex or gender. It might also be a purely psychological problem and if reassignment makes the person completely happy then it seems like a pretty simple solution, just like losing weight can stop you feeling crap about your thunder thighs or dyeing your hair can stop people recoiling in horror at your gingerness.

So pipe down and mind your own business.

Roundhead89 said :

This is ridiculous. The whole female impersonator thing was started as a stage act by Carlotta in the late 1960s and it was only ever intended as a joke. It wasn’t real. To now have people mutilating their bodies and having the law encouraging this is tragic. I’ve said this before on RA but it seems that this very basic biological truth hasn’t been heard in sections of the ACT government so I’ll repeat it: If you are born with a penis you are a male. If you are born with a vagina you are a female. End of story.

Not everyone has it as easy as that. There are only a few, but it is a deeply distressing issue for them, especially if their parents are forced to choose and they choose wrong.

Solidarity said :

’tis all in the chromosomes.

It’s just like that

And that’s the way it is.

Thanks Run-DMC for that incisive commentary.

Roundhead89 said :

This is ridiculous. The whole female impersonator thing was started as a stage act by Carlotta in the late 1960s and it was only ever intended as a joke. It wasn’t real. To now have people mutilating their bodies and having the law encouraging this is tragic. I’ve said this before on RA but it seems that this very basic biological truth hasn’t been heard in sections of the ACT government so I’ll repeat it: If you are born with a penis you are a male. If you are born with a vagina you are a female. End of story.

You forgot:
– If you are blonde, you are dumb
– If you are short and have a penis, you are angry
– If you have a long nose, you are a liar

You get my drift: bring back profiling on the basis of physical characteristics now!

annus_horribilis4:47 pm 28 Nov 13

Sigh, why does my quoting never work properly!

annus_horribilis4:46 pm 28 Nov 13

annus_horribilis510030″]’tis all in the chromosomes.

It’s just like that

And that’s the way it is.

So what gender are those with XXY chromsomes, and non specific genetalia? They do exist.

This is ridiculous. The whole female impersonator thing was started as a stage act by Carlotta in the late 1960s and it was only ever intended as a joke. It wasn’t real. To now have people mutilating their bodies and having the law encouraging this is tragic. I’ve said this before on RA but it seems that this very basic biological truth hasn’t been heard in sections of the ACT government so I’ll repeat it: If you are born with a penis you are a male. If you are born with a vagina you are a female. End of story.

ScienceRules3:37 pm 28 Nov 13

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

Dear Diary

Today PantsMan had sand in his anus because of something the government did.

It was a good day.

Love it!

’tis all in the chromosomes.

It’s just like that

And that’s the way it is.

CrocodileGandhi2:47 pm 28 Nov 13

voytek3 said :

Sorry to point out reality to those people with obvious mental issues but you are either male or female. Whatever you think or surgery is not going to ever change this fact. If you disagree you are wrong.

The argument is over, people. We can all go home now that voytek3 has so thoroughly and convincingly argued his case.

“Although the Births Deaths and Marriages Registration Amendment Bill 2013 affects a relatively small number of people in our community, these changes will have a large and positive impact on this section of the community. Until now, these community members have been unfairly disadvantaged by outmoded restrictions on sex and gender recognition,”

They also do not impact the rest of the community in any adverse way. Very nice work!

PantsMan said :

More pointless pandering to an extreme minority, while Rome (Canberra) burns.

Priorities? FFS!

What a load of hyperbolic rubbish, get over it Pantsman.

Woody Mann-Caruso2:04 pm 28 Nov 13

Dear Diary

Today PantsMan had sand in his anus because of something the government did.

It was a good day.

PantsMan said :

More pointless pandering to an extreme minority, while Rome (Canberra) burns.

Priorities? FFS!

Another reason to hate conservatives right here

Sorry to point out reality to those people with obvious mental issues but you are either male or female. Whatever you think or surgery is not going to ever change this fact. If you disagree you are wrong.

maxblues said :

If parents will have six months to work out what sex their child is, how long do they have to decide on a name?

So you’ve got 60 days to decide if you want a transgender newborn?

F*&k! Me! Dead!

These guys have gone nuts.

More pointless pandering to an extreme minority, while Rome (Canberra) burns.

Priorities? FFS!

If parents will have six months to work out what sex their child is, how long do they have to decide on a name?

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