31 August 2012

No crosses please, we're a school

| poetix
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I always thought my children – or child as it has turned out – would go to government schools. I believed (and still believe in many ways) that there should be one system of schooling, publicly funded.

And then… My daughter, at a very well regarded government primary school, made a cross from two sticks she found as a tribute to fallen soldiers for a Remembrance Day display. She was a Christian for some time before me, and this was totally her own idea on the day.

The cross was confiscated. She was not allowed to display it along with the floral tribute, although other small items (paper flowers and so on) were permitted. When I turned up at the end of the day, the cross was handed to me with the spoken message that ‘no religious symbols are permitted’. My daughter was quite upset, and felt she had done something wrong.

My own view is that her spontaneous tribute was a valuable thing. Turkish soldiers could also be honoured by other symbols. But I found it quite appalling that a primary school child’s respectful tribute to fallen soldiers was disallowed on the basis that it was religious. Of course, and rightly so, Muslim children at the school are able to wear headscarfs, but that is not seen as problematic.

And this is where it gets even more difficult. My daughter also came home from school very upset one day, as she has been told at a special presentation on Aboriginal culture that if she touched a didgeridoo, she would be made sick, and mightn’t be able to have children. I appreciate Aboriginal spirituality and culture being taught, but it is wrong, surely, to reduce a child to tears? It’s like an old notion of hell being used to scare a new generation of children.

Educationally, I had found the school wanting in some ways, so when a chance came to take up a position at an independent school a year early, we took it.

I made no protest against my daughter’s treatment, because we had the option and ability to remove her. Her new Anglican school is academically better, but also allows her to express herself more freely in a number of ways.

I’m not really seeking any answers through this overlong post, but just wanted to register my retrospective disgust at a little girl’s effort in remembering the war dead being censored. And the that certain spiritual beliefs are able to be expressed in government schools, but not others.

Her experience was fairly important to me in my developing religious beliefs, too, so I suppose I should be grateful. But I will always remember her look of shame at receiving back her confiscated cross.

The public school system lost a very bright little girl because she wasn’t an atheist. They also lost a committed family with skills to help the school. I had volunteered on a regular basis there.

But basically, the ideological position of the school, combined with a lack of options for intelligent kids, meant we left the goverment system forever. And thank God we had that choice. Many people don’t.

I’d appreciate any views on the issues raised here.

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poetix said :

DrKoresh said :

astrojax said :

Jim Jones said :

ONWARDS MULLY SOLDIERS!!!

would this thread winning the mully be poetix justice?

Oh snap! Nailed that one, she’ll be quite cross once she gets this month’s Mully, I’ll bet. ‘Saint all bad though, Poetix, does’t really martyr in the long run, eh?

May this gloriously detailed, if appropriately bogan, Boxing Jesus come and knock you out!
http://www.art4god.com/html/?go=product&id=un
Or alternatively, set bears on you (bears come from the Woody).

Chuck Norris and Jesus have morphed.That’s gonna be a roundhouse kick that will send one into orbit!

DrKoresh said :

astrojax said :

Jim Jones said :

ONWARDS MULLY SOLDIERS!!!

would this thread winning the mully be poetix justice?

Oh snap! Nailed that one, she’ll be quite cross once she gets this month’s Mully, I’ll bet. ‘Saint all bad though, Poetix, does’t really martyr in the long run, eh?

May this gloriously detailed, if appropriately bogan, Boxing Jesus come and knock you out!
http://www.art4god.com/html/?go=product&id=un
Or alternatively, set bears on you (bears come from the Woody).

astrojax said :

Jim Jones said :

ONWARDS MULLY SOLDIERS!!!

would this thread winning the mully be poetix justice?

Oh snap! Nailed that one, she’ll be quite cross once she gets this month’s Mully, I’ll bet. ‘Saint all bad though, Poetix, does’t really martyr in the long run, eh?

Woody Mann-Caruso8:14 pm 06 Sep 12

it’s not for me to start screaming at anyone who has religious beliefs, unless of course, they are raving, over the top loonies trying to shove it down my throat, such as the Mt Ainslie Fire on the Hill mob or Hillsong or any other fundamental religious group, whatever their ilk.

Then the only difference between you and me is that I draw the ‘loony’ line much lower down the stupid chain than you do. Another way of looking at would be that I have higher standards than you do.

And Jesus did not summon bears to kill kiddies.

I’m sorry. Here was thinking that the son was the father and all that. Or was Elisha your run-of-the- mill magic user, rather than a cleric, and his superpowers weren’t granted by his sky ghost?

A lot of it can be read as a metaphor. You don’t really take a fundamentalist point of view do you?

It’s hard for me to keep track of which bits are the literally true infallible words of the supreme creator, and which bits I can just ignore because it’s convenient. None of you seem to be able to agree on the matter, which would be worrying if it weren’t all made up. It would appear your deity needs a communication strategy that isn’t indistinguishable from schizophrenia.

Holden Caulfield6:29 pm 06 Sep 12

johnboy said :

There’s a qualitative judgment on the comment. All this for instance doesn’t count.

Clearly I’ve missed that. Carry on.

You’ll be needing a new trophy/hubcap soon by the looks.

johnboy said :

There’s a qualitative judgment on the comment. All this for instance doesn’t count.

It’s a brave man who stands between God and a Mully.

Holden Caulfield5:20 pm 06 Sep 12

johnboy said :

As has been noted the Mully Cup is a judged event and not just a raw exercise of the numbers.

Despite the blurb at the bottom of each Mully winner which reads: “The Mully Cup is awarded monthly to the entity stimulating the most comment on this website.”

🙂

There’s a qualitative judgment on the comment. All this for instance doesn’t count.

bundah said :

johnboy said :

As has been noted the Mully Cup is a judged event and not just a raw exercise of the numbers.

Poetix is far too modest.I got a sneaking suspicion she’d be quite chuffed at the prospect of being honoured with a Mully.

Christians don’t lie! 🙂

johnboy said :

As has been noted the Mully Cup is a judged event and not just a raw exercise of the numbers.

Poetix is far too modest.I got a sneaking suspicion she’d be quite chuffed at the prospect of being honoured with a Mully.

More than happy to bribe the judge with something so I don’t get it.

(Digs out ‘single malt’ thread.)

There I go again, solving things by expenditure…Or attempting to.

johnboy said :

As has been noted the Mully Cup is a judged event and not just a raw exercise of the numbers.

Yes, but this topic has generated a fair bit of real discussion, though not in an ‘event’ sense. Is that a defining criteria?
There have also been a few wasted comments, but surely most threads have a lot of those?
And, after all, doesn’t Poetix deserve some notoriety, if the cards were to fall that way in a few weeks?! 🙂

johnboy said :

As has been noted the Mully Cup is a judged event and not just a raw exercise of the numbers.

Jawohl, mein Kommandant.

justin heywood3:56 pm 06 Sep 12

colourful sydney racing identity said :

And I just commented again, didn’t I?

I think you may have.

Sorry I just realised that you don’t want more posts, for fear of winning the Mully. Please disregard my previous post…

Quite right Colourful. We will ignore that comment.

As has been noted the Mully Cup is a judged event and not just a raw exercise of the numbers.

Jim Jones said :

ONWARDS MULLY SOLDIERS!!!

would this thread winning the mully be poetix justice?

colourful sydney racing identity3:20 pm 06 Sep 12

colourful sydney racing identity said :

poetix said :

Jim Jones said :

ONWARDS MULLY SOLDIERS!!!

Why are people so unkind?

And I just commented again, didn’t I?

I think you may have.

Sorry I just realised that you don’t want more posts, for fear of winning the Mully. Please disregard my previous post…

colourful sydney racing identity2:56 pm 06 Sep 12

poetix said :

Jim Jones said :

ONWARDS MULLY SOLDIERS!!!

Why are people so unkind?

And I just commented again, didn’t I?

I think you may have.

Jim Jones said :

ONWARDS MULLY SOLDIERS!!!

Why are people so unkind?

And I just commented again, didn’t I?

ONWARDS MULLY SOLDIERS!!!

poetix said :

Just realised that there are 100 comments on this thread. Could someone please start a thread about cats in Lycra on bikes making cars stop at pedestrian crossings, well before the end of the month.

Many thanks.

Why, when you are so close to having your name immortalised on the Mully cup! Oh the shame…. Hahahaha!

poetix said :

Just realised that there are 100 comments on this thread. Could someone please start a thread about cats in Lycra on bikes making cars stop at pedestrian crossings, well before the end of the month.

Many thanks.

you wrote it, poetix – we all have our cross to bear*…

[*not a bear who eats children, btw]

Just realised that there are 100 comments on this thread. Could someone please start a thread about cats in Lycra on bikes making cars stop at pedestrian crossings, well before the end of the month.

Many thanks.

Stevian said :

You do realize a cross as a tribute dishonours every non-christian soldier,

You mean in the same way that laying a wreath as a tribute dishonours every soldier who doesn’t like flowers?

poetix said :

Your bi(b)le spitting fundamentalists are amongst the worst…

Not as bad as the Koran-spitting ones, who, in turn, are not as bad as the Marx-spitting ones….

Holden Caulfield10:42 am 06 Sep 12

HenryBG said :

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

….. feel slightly cross that you’re allowed to vote about important things. I mean, we don’t let drunk people drive, or crazy people look after children. Why do we let dumb people take part in big decisions that affect us all? Why should your lunatic desert cult get any airplay at all in a secular school setting, outside of a purely historical or cultural analysis?
.

…If you’re going to start applying a sanity-test to people before they are allowed to vote, the results will probably not be as you intend…

Quite. I’d love to see WMC’s response when his/her/its right to vote was taken away by his/her/its own sanity criteria.

poetix said :

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

For someone who, as an atheist, could be expected to place great stress on rational thought, you do a good job in concentrating on belittling others and making assumptions about what they know.

You’re going to have to explain to me why it’s irrational to belittle somebody for rational reasons. I can coldly and calmly observe that your beliefs are utterly without evidence. I can then let the blood flow a little bit and think that this makes you more than a little dense, and feel slightly cross that you’re allowed to vote about important things. I mean, we don’t let drunk people drive, or crazy people look after children. Why do we let dumb people take part in big decisions that affect us all? Why should your lunatic desert cult get any airplay at all in a secular school setting, outside of a purely historical or cultural analysis?

What else would you be?

Certainly nothing as ridiculous as a Jewish zombie wizard who can walk on water, summon bears to kill children, curse trees and make unlimited two-for-one Filet O’Fish burgers two thousand years before there was a McDonalds.

So you’d not let anyone with a religious belief vote? Youz get no cheezburger. That’s most of the population, you do realise?

And Jesus did not summon bears to kill kiddies. Elisha in the Old Testament (Kings, I think) cursed some children, and the bears had happy meals. Read the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) and there’s a stunning lack of snacky bruins.

A lot of it can be read as a metaphor. You don’t really take a fundamentalist point of view do you?

WMC comes across as a sad, bitter and intolerant old man shaking his puny fists at religion and happy to dole out vitriol and abuse to anyone who may believe in such things.

Personally, I’m agnostic, bordering on atheist, but it’s not for me to start screaming at anyone who has religious beliefs, unless of course, they are raving, over the top loonies trying to shove it down my throat, such as the Mt Ainslie Fire on the Hill mob or Hillsong or any other fundamental religious group, whatever their ilk.

I enjoy some of the teaching of Hinduism and Buddhism but would never convert to either. Nor would I take up Christianity or any other religion. However, live and let live is a much better way for society to exist so I try to stick to that. Tolerance is what this society needs, no bile spitting abuse.

+1

Your bi(b)le spitting fundamentalists are amongst the worst…

HenryBG said :

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

….. feel slightly cross that you’re allowed to vote about important things. I mean, we don’t let drunk people drive, or crazy people look after children. Why do we let dumb people take part in big decisions that affect us all? Why should your lunatic desert cult get any airplay at all in a secular school setting, outside of a purely historical or cultural analysis?
.

Michael Buble fans are allowed to vote.

Not when I become King of the world

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

….. feel slightly cross that you’re allowed to vote about important things. I mean, we don’t let drunk people drive, or crazy people look after children. Why do we let dumb people take part in big decisions that affect us all? Why should your lunatic desert cult get any airplay at all in a secular school setting, outside of a purely historical or cultural analysis?
.

True that, however there are a lot of people who believe a lot of irrational things and they aren’t all religious.
Communists are allowed to vote. Michael Buble fans are allowed to vote. Homosexuals are allowed to vote. People with jetskis are allowed to vote. etc….

If you’re going to start applying a sanity-test to people before they are allowed to vote, the results will probably not be as you intend.

Ultimately, the christian part of our culture has been around a very long time and is far more balanced and mature than some of the more recent irrational lobbygroups that have sprung up with their agendas.

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd6:54 am 06 Sep 12

scorpio63 said :

Each to their own regarding choice of education for one’s children Poetix.

Woody Caruso Mann: you will be in for one heck of a shock when your day arrives; Poetix was more than justified within the statement made ‘I pity you’. A ‘believer’ is just that – a ‘believer’ minus the need to be shown evidence yet shown evidence through prayer with one’s heart opened to God, Jesus and Our Lady Mary. Give it a go Woody; say the Rosary – you never know!.

Lmao

dpm said :

poetix said :

Having a woman bishop do a baptism would be cool! (The first one was appointed for the diocese of Canberra and Goulburn quite recently, and it has to be done by a bishop.) On the other hand, I don’t think it really matters that much.

On a somewhat related note, I find it amusing when the good ‘ol news mentions words like ‘beatification’ and ‘diocese’ in news items (such as the one you mentioned about the woman bishop), like they are commonly known to everyone listening/watching. I generally have no idea WTF they are talking about and have to look it up! Hahahaha!

Like me with computer jargon in certain RiotACT threads, only I don’t bother to look it up.

No doubt some people think that’s because I regard computers as ‘Satan’s own toolbox’.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

For someone who, as an atheist, could be expected to place great stress on rational thought, you do a good job in concentrating on belittling others and making assumptions about what they know.

You’re going to have to explain to me why it’s irrational to belittle somebody for rational reasons. I can coldly and calmly observe that your beliefs are utterly without evidence. I can then let the blood flow a little bit and think that this makes you more than a little dense, and feel slightly cross that you’re allowed to vote about important things. I mean, we don’t let drunk people drive, or crazy people look after children. Why do we let dumb people take part in big decisions that affect us all? Why should your lunatic desert cult get any airplay at all in a secular school setting, outside of a purely historical or cultural analysis?

What else would you be?

Certainly nothing as ridiculous as a Jewish zombie wizard who can walk on water, summon bears to kill children, curse trees and make unlimited two-for-one Filet O’Fish burgers two thousand years before there was a McDonalds.

So you’d not let anyone with a religious belief vote? Youz get no cheezburger. That’s most of the population, you do realise?

And Jesus did not summon bears to kill kiddies. Elisha in the Old Testament (Kings, I think) cursed some children, and the bears had happy meals. Read the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) and there’s a stunning lack of snacky bruins.

A lot of it can be read as a metaphor. You don’t really take a fundamentalist point of view do you?

poetix said :

Having a woman bishop do a baptism would be cool! (The first one was appointed for the diocese of Canberra and Goulburn quite recently, and it has to be done by a bishop.) On the other hand, I don’t think it really matters that much.

On a somewhat related note, I find it amusing when the good ‘ol news mentions words like ‘beatification’ and ‘diocese’ in news items (such as the one you mentioned about the woman bishop), like they are commonly known to everyone listening/watching. I generally have no idea WTF they are talking about and have to look it up! Hahahaha!

bundah said :

poetix said :

bundah said :

@Poetix

I’m curious about your comment where you indicate that your daughter was a Christian for some time before you which would suggest that you’ve only embraced Christianity in recent times.If that is the case were you a agnostic or non-believer previously?

Yes, last Christmas was my first as a Christian. I was raised as an atheist and that’s what I’ve always been, with a few months of agnosticism in between. I’m still not baptised, for example. Shocking! (-:

Fascinating coz i did embrace new age spirituality in my youth but after much soul searching have come to the conclusion that it’s illogical and therefore consider myself an agnostic athiest now.As far as baptism is concerned i like many didn’t have a choice in the matter.

Having a woman bishop do a baptism would be cool! (The first one was appointed for the diocese of Canberra and Goulburn quite recently, and it has to be done by a bishop.) On the other hand, I don’t think it really matters that much.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

For someone who, as an atheist, could be expected to place great stress on rational thought, you do a good job in concentrating on belittling others and making assumptions about what they know.

You’re going to have to explain to me why it’s irrational to belittle somebody for rational reasons. I can coldly and calmly observe that your beliefs are utterly without evidence. I can then let the blood flow a little bit and think that this makes you more than a little dense, and feel slightly cross that you’re allowed to vote about important things. I mean, we don’t let drunk people drive, or crazy people look after children. Why do we let dumb people take part in big decisions that affect us all? Why should your lunatic desert cult get any airplay at all in a secular school setting, outside of a purely historical or cultural analysis?

What else would you be?

Certainly nothing as ridiculous as a Jewish zombie wizard who can walk on water, summon bears to kill children, curse trees and make unlimited two-for-one Filet O’Fish burgers two thousand years before there was a McDonalds.

Woody it’s blatantly obvious that you can’t see the wood for the trees.

Each to their own regarding choice of education for one’s children Poetix.

Woody Caruso Mann: you will be in for one heck of a shock when your day arrives; Poetix was more than justified within the statement made ‘I pity you’. A ‘believer’ is just that – a ‘believer’ minus the need to be shown evidence yet shown evidence through prayer with one’s heart opened to God, Jesus and Our Lady Mary. Give it a go Woody; say the Rosary – you never know!.

Woody Mann-Caruso9:28 pm 05 Sep 12

For someone who, as an atheist, could be expected to place great stress on rational thought, you do a good job in concentrating on belittling others and making assumptions about what they know.

You’re going to have to explain to me why it’s irrational to belittle somebody for rational reasons. I can coldly and calmly observe that your beliefs are utterly without evidence. I can then let the blood flow a little bit and think that this makes you more than a little dense, and feel slightly cross that you’re allowed to vote about important things. I mean, we don’t let drunk people drive, or crazy people look after children. Why do we let dumb people take part in big decisions that affect us all? Why should your lunatic desert cult get any airplay at all in a secular school setting, outside of a purely historical or cultural analysis?

What else would you be?

Certainly nothing as ridiculous as a Jewish zombie wizard who can walk on water, summon bears to kill children, curse trees and make unlimited two-for-one Filet O’Fish burgers two thousand years before there was a McDonalds.

poetix said :

bundah said :

@Poetix

I’m curious about your comment where you indicate that your daughter was a Christian for some time before you which would suggest that you’ve only embraced Christianity in recent times.If that is the case were you a agnostic or non-believer previously?

Yes, last Christmas was my first as a Christian. I was raised as an atheist and that’s what I’ve always been, with a few months of agnosticism in between. I’m still not baptised, for example. Shocking! (-:

Fascinating coz i did embrace new age spirituality in my youth but after much soul searching have come to the conclusion that it’s illogical and therefore consider myself an agnostic athiest now.As far as baptism is concerned i like many didn’t have a choice in the matter.

I would of taken my child from the school as well. That’s disgusting attitude the teacher or school has taken.

bundah said :

@Poetix

I’m curious about your comment where you indicate that your daughter was a Christian for some time before you which would suggest that you’ve only embraced Christianity in recent times.If that is the case were you a agnostic or non-believer previously?

Yes, last Christmas was my first as a Christian. I was raised as an atheist and that’s what I’ve always been, with a few months of agnosticism in between. I’m still not baptised, for example. Shocking! (-:

@Poetix

I’m curious about your comment where you indicate that your daughter was a Christian for some time before you which would suggest that you’ve only embraced Christianity in recent times.If that is the case were you a agnostic or non-believer previously?

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

We should be teaching students diversity and tolerance for people who do and do not have faith.

Yep. It’s a pretty simple concept really.

Yeah, real simple.

Until you get to the part where we medicate and incarcerate some people who believe in things that aren’t real, or ridicule other who hold clearly ludicrous beliefs, but others are allowed to roam free and their unsubstantiated beliefs have just as much worth as your facts and we let them vote. And some of the latter kinds of people get to tell other latter kinds of people that their imaginary friends are wrong, and kill them for it, but remember, all worldviews are equally valid. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

And, just as an aside (which will probably drive you feral, or more so) many Aborigines are also Christians. They know more about suffering than most of us.

I know I shouldn’t be surprised that you don’t seem to see how one has been a significant cause of the other, but hey, I’m only human.

For someone who, as an atheist, could be expected to place great stress on rational thought, you do a good job in concentrating on belittling others and making assumptions about what they know. You show an extremely emotional response. The emotions and anger and contempt, bordering on disgust, and you don’t seem to be aware of this. The ‘I’m only human’ remark is quite telling, I think; intended as a joke, in in fact disguises quite a hefty dose of arrogance. What else would you be?

No-one has spoken in favour of religious based killing. We’re talking about a cross made of sticks in a school.

I really feel quite sorry for you.

Woody Mann-Caruso7:06 pm 05 Sep 12

We should be teaching students diversity and tolerance for people who do and do not have faith.

Yep. It’s a pretty simple concept really.

Yeah, real simple.

Until you get to the part where we medicate and incarcerate some people who believe in things that aren’t real, or ridicule other who hold clearly ludicrous beliefs, but others are allowed to roam free and their unsubstantiated beliefs have just as much worth as your facts and we let them vote. And some of the latter kinds of people get to tell other latter kinds of people that their imaginary friends are wrong, and kill them for it, but remember, all worldviews are equally valid. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

And, just as an aside (which will probably drive you feral, or more so) many Aborigines are also Christians. They know more about suffering than most of us.

I know I shouldn’t be surprised that you don’t seem to see how one has been a significant cause of the other, but hey, I’m only human.

,this is a bizarre, but too common, example of a concept being misrepresented for fear of seeming to do the wrong thing – pc gone mad, as ever.

i am wholeheartedly for the removal of religious indoctrination from public school curricula; but rebuking a child for expressing their own sense of religion isn’t about indoctination as part and parcel of a school’s mandate to teach.

i’m sorry for your daughter’s experience, poetix. even as a staunch very skeptical agnostic i think a child’s development of their own sense of self, their own belief structures, is what a school should be nurturing – this is abysmal behaviour and you really should write to the education minister with this story…

Holden Caulfield12:15 pm 04 Sep 12

me1 said :

We should be teaching students diversity and tolerance for people who do and do not have faith.

Yep. It’s a pretty simple concept really.

I think walking out on the school was a perfectly legitimate response. ‘poetix’ is under no obligation to explain their movement to the School. Besides; those sort of “we are leaving because…”-complaints rarely fall on ears that a willing to listen.

As a tolerant and democratic society, we should all be allowed to express our religion (amongst other individual beliefs). You cannot allow one religion some tolerance, yet deny another. Despite that – this cross was not a religious symbol – but clearly a symbol of those that have passed protecting our country. Were the celebrated/commemorated hard-fought freedoms worth fighting for and defending, if we are going to have intolerant Public Schools?

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

One set of spiritual/religious beliefs is refused, but another is allowed. The OP doesn%u2019t see the fairness in that.

Oh, I know exactly what OP was saying. I also know it was meant to sound like a rally for equitable religious tolerance. I’m sure it was just an accident that it came out ‘They should tolerate my sweet, lovely religion as practiced by my sweet, lovely daughter who just loves kittens and dead soldiers. After all, they tolerate that horrible, backward, superstitious Aborigine who threatened to curse her ovaries with his magic phallus and made her cry. Did I mention that in her worldview, you’re all going to burn in eternity?’

The answer, of course, is that you’re both backward, and the only difference between your moronic beliefs and theirs is that yours are from the Iron Age.

Please don’t project your anger onto me! I have absolutely no belief that Aboriginal culture is backward, or only suitable for a museum. We can all learn a lot from Indigenous cultures. For example, I think our general treatment of the land is pathetic when compared with the first Australians’ long record. There is nothing ‘moronic’ about their knowledge.

I think that hell is something we create through anger and intolerance, and cruelty towards others.

And, just as an aside (which will probably drive you feral, or more so) many Aborigines are also Christians. They know more about suffering than most of us. And survival.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

One set of spiritual/religious beliefs is refused, but another is allowed. The OP doesn’t see the fairness in that.

Oh, I know exactly what OP was saying. I also know it was meant to sound like a rally for equitable religious tolerance. I’m sure it was just an accident that it came out ‘They should tolerate my sweet, lovely religion as practiced by my sweet, lovely daughter who just loves kittens and dead soldiers. After all, they tolerate that horrible, backward, superstitious Aborigine who threatened to curse her ovaries with his magic phallus and made her cry. Did I mention that in her worldview, you’re all going to burn in eternity?’

The answer, of course, is that you’re both backward, and the only difference between your moronic beliefs and theirs is that yours are from the Iron Age.

-1.

Clown Killer said :

I honestly believe there should be a choice in schooling at this level. It’s not a major sacrifice if it’s something that is really important for the parents and children concerned – in Canberra, certainly no more than about $25,000 a year. The sheer fact that year on year, Canberra families are voting with their feet and their wallets to distance themselves from the sort of people who believe its ok for this sort of malarki to be peddled in the name of state education.

+1.

Woody Mann-Caruso5:42 pm 01 Sep 12

One set of spiritual/religious beliefs is refused, but another is allowed. The OP doesn’t see the fairness in that.

Oh, I know exactly what OP was saying. I also know it was meant to sound like a rally for equitable religious tolerance. I’m sure it was just an accident that it came out ‘They should tolerate my sweet, lovely religion as practiced by my sweet, lovely daughter who just loves kittens and dead soldiers. After all, they tolerate that horrible, backward, superstitious Aborigine who threatened to curse her ovaries with his magic phallus and made her cry. Did I mention that in her worldview, you’re all going to burn in eternity?’

The answer, of course, is that you’re both backward, and the only difference between your moronic beliefs and theirs is that yours are from the Iron Age.

Antagonist said :

Clown Killer said :

Just a quite word on didgeridoos … If you’re not a TO or country man from the top end, you know s***

As your comment clearly demonstrates. The didge is used in ceremony by many tribes/clans outside of the top end.

PS – ‘quiet’. Not ‘quite’. F**ktard.

Ah, the spelling police answer. Can’t win an argument, so resort to the old “they made a spelling mistake, so there must be evil in their hearts” smear. This from the person can’t spell, or can’t be bothered to fully write didgeridoo. Yes, I see that you stand on a moral pedestal. Not.

So, a self-righteous secularist is put in charge of a school, and then sets about demonstrating inclusiveness, by excluding (at minimum) cultural references that are meaningful for many. Hardly surprising, given the talent pool from which teaching staff is drawn, and the outrageous propaganda expressed in the Education faculty at UC for example.

Clown Killer said :

Just a quite word on didgeridoos … If you’re not a TO or country man from the top end, you know s***

As your comment clearly demonstrates. The didge is used in ceremony by many tribes/clans outside of the top end.

PS – ‘quiet’. Not ‘quite’. F**ktard.

poetix said :

I hope you have found somewhere where your daughter can feel safe, and concentrate on learning. And that she doesn’t feel guilty in any way, and has some fun.

Thank you. We did, at the local government high school. Getting good marks, much happier, and apparently enjoying the sleep in that a five minute walk to school allows.

It is ridiculous if faith is ruled out of public schooling. Students should be taught that every individual has the right to choose whether they follow a particular religion or not. Students have every right to show their respect in a way which incorporates their faith. All students should have been invited to create their own memorial which reflected their own personal values, religious or not.
A workplace can not ask an employee to remove a cross, so why can a school? We should be teaching students diversity and tolerance for people who do and do not have faith.

If you take offense to other religions symbols, aren’t you exercising religious intolerance? Isn’t this therefore the opposite of freedom of religion?

Although with an athiest running the country (into the ground), it shouldn’t surprise too much.

We shouldn’t be installing prayer rooms into schools at taxpayer expense, but we shouldn’t be banning kids from bring a prayer mat or packing a bible or wearing a cross or ankh or anything else around their neck. When I was in high school, and it really all that long ago, I remember a girl who wore pentagram jewelery to school.

earthrepair said :

The problem is as you say “I’m not really seeking any answers ”
Perhaps if you had asked the school committee/teacher(s)/principal for detailed answers (put it to them in writing) then people here would have more time for your rambling post. It seems reasonable that an aboriginal artifact should be handled with full cultural sensitivity?

But people do have time for it. I’m hoping it stops soon, so there’s no danger of a Mully. That’s keeping me awake…

Rambling? Perhaps. That’s just a rather more unpleasant way of saying overlong, as I did. But I don’t think there is anything wrong with raising a few points in the one post sometimes. It all relates to spiritual beliefs, tolerance, and how children are treated in school.

A lot of people seem to have trouble with the idea of moving as a solution, but it has worked, for this child.

Clown Killer11:59 pm 31 Aug 12

Just a quite word on didgeridoos … If you’re not a TO or country man from the top end, you know s***

Clown Killer11:40 pm 31 Aug 12

I honestly believe there should be a choice in schooling at this level. It’s not a major sacrifice if it’s something that is really important for the parents and children concerned – in Canberra, certainly no more than about $25,000 a year. The sheer fact that year on year, Canberra families are voting with their feet and their wallets to distance themselves from the sort of people who believe its ok for this sort of malarki to be peddled in the name of state education.

bigfeet said :

bundah said :

I’m puzzled by the didgeridoo message given that while women do not traditionally play them in public ceremonies there are a number of tribes where there are no restrictions on women playing the ‘doo in an informal capacity. So there must be be an absolute sh*tload of sick barren women in the outback unless of course this particular scenario only applies to non-indigenous females.

I have lived and worked in many Aboriginal communities in Nth Qld, NT and WA, and in the North in many areas there is no restriction whatsoever on women using didgeridoos. I saw many played by women in social settings and whilst I never went to a ‘womens ceremony’ I certainly saw women carrying didgeridoos when heading out to a ceremonies that I was aware were going on.

It was only when I moved south that I heard of that some groups down here had this cultural belief.

I have heard this one quite a few times, mostly from brothers and sisters who still have contact with traditional culture, and more from the West than from around SE Australia. The difference being that women are allowed to touch didgeridoos (yidaki) but not allowed to PLAY them. The infertility thing is new to me.

I also recall Ernie Dingo mentioning the same custom many years ago on ‘Getaway’ when one of the women on the show took lessons on one of the holidays. It was a harmless ‘women aren’t supposed to play the didge’ type comment. I’m pretty sure Ernie is from WA too.

poetix said :

maniac said :

poetix said :

maniac said :

I say good, the school should be commended.

Keep religion and religious superstition out of schools. Children are easily brainwashed. Why anyone would want to use a symbol of Roman execution as a religious symbol astounds me?

Because it represents hope and the radical freedom of a spiritual triumph over an oppressive State? That everyone is worthwhile?

That someone put love before his own life?

But please remember that this was the genuine gesture of a child who just wanted to do something to remember soldiers who died fighting.

Actually as I have a PhD in Classics (or ancient history to you) I am a foremost authority on Roman Imperial and Early Byzantine History and I completely disagree with you. Yes I have published books and articles and am easily Googled.

Everything we know about Jesus Christ was written by other men, all with their own biases. Everyone loves to apply their own beliefs/fears/desires onto this figure. Indeed if he was to somehow magically reappear today then he would be aghast and appalled by depictions of him on the cross. It would be the same as carrying around tiny racks or iron maidens, or any other symbolic torture devices.

It would be like you just got back from the hospital because you were brutally beaten with golf clubs, and then your friends leave you a new set of golf clubs in your house for when you get back… and ask you to go golfing all the time… and mention how your brutal beating with golf clubs reminds them of the virtues of letting other people play through when you’re going slow out on the course.

Although my PhD is only in English, I am familiar with the notion of Classics.

What is Latin for golf?

Duelling PhD’s eh! Only on the RiotAct.

Anyway, as suggested I Googled for “maniac with a PhD in classics”, and the results weren’t promising. On that basis, I’m giving this round to Poetix.

The problem is as you say “I’m not really seeking any answers ”
Perhaps if you had asked the school committee/teacher(s)/principal for detailed answers (put it to them in writing) then people here would have more time for your rambling post. It seems reasonable that an aboriginal artifact should be handled with full cultural sensitivity?

justin heywood9:40 pm 31 Aug 12

poetix said :

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

So:

– your darling little girl wanted to express her religious beliefs at school, which is totally awesome, and the people who said no are evil bastards

– an Aboriginal person wanted to express their religious beliefs at school, which makes them an evil bastard, and you want to say no which makes you totally awesome

That about cover it?

No. You have missed the point, which is that in both cases, a young child was tormented to the point of tears. I said nothing about people being evil bastards. I said nothing against other beliefs. And, perhaps exceptionally, nothing about myself being awesome!

The anger is coming from you.

And she is a darling little girl, despite your sarcasm.

Do you think I shouldn’t care about her well being?

Don’t worry, Woody is normally a byword for tolerance ’round these parts- I’m sure it was a mistake. He has a browser problem apparently, which leaves him in the bizarre situation of attacking people for things they never said.

(Hey, I could really get into this sarcasm gig.)

Duffbowl said :

poetix said :

Duffbowl said :

Last year, we removed our daughter from an Anglican school when it became apparent that the school practiced concepts of guilt as punishment, and an expectation that bullying should be accepted if the intent of the bully was to bring the person to greater knowledge of God and the Church.

That is bizarre, and totally unacceptable.

Yes, and when confronted, both the Principal and Bursar told me that they believed nothing improper had happened. Anyway, rant over, and I hope your daughter has settled in and enjoying her time at school.

I hope you have found somewhere where your daughter can feel safe, and concentrate on learning. And that she doesn’t feel guilty in any way, and has some fun.

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd9:06 pm 31 Aug 12

HenryBG said :

p1 said :

dpm said :

Unfortunately, it’s just more of the public vs private (sorry, ‘independent’) …

If by independent you mean still receives quite a lot of funding from the government. Personally, I wish everyone would go back to calling them private schools, rather then let them get away with that little bit of image manipulation.

What is this? 1960?

p1, if the commies in charge of public education think they can win another Catholic Schools strike, I will be amused to see them try.

The commies tried this with Calvary. And lost.

Imposing their politically-correct autocracy on us will never succeed. Public schools have bled pupils for years now, to the point where the independent school systems are over-enrolled and unable to accept any more.

So long as the commies keep making a nuisance of themselves, the public school system will continue to fail, to experience dropping standards and plummeting academic achievement.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

So:

– your darling little girl wanted to express her religious beliefs at school, which is totally awesome, and the people who said no are evil bastards

– an Aboriginal person wanted to express their religious beliefs at school, which makes them an evil bastard, and you want to say no which makes you totally awesome

That about cover it?

No. You have missed the point, which is that in both cases, a young child was tormented to the point of tears. I said nothing about people being evil bastards. I said nothing against other beliefs. And, perhaps exceptionally, nothing about myself being awesome!

The anger is coming from you.

And she is a darling little girl, despite your sarcasm. Do you think I shouldn’t care about her well being?

maniac said :

poetix said :

maniac said :

I say good, the school should be commended.

Keep religion and religious superstition out of schools. Children are easily brainwashed. Why anyone would want to use a symbol of Roman execution as a religious symbol astounds me?

Because it represents hope and the radical freedom of a spiritual triumph over an oppressive State? That everyone is worthwhile?

That someone put love before his own life?

But please remember that this was the genuine gesture of a child who just wanted to do something to remember soldiers who died fighting.

Actually as I have a PhD in Classics (or ancient history to you) I am a foremost authority on Roman Imperial and Early Byzantine History and I completely disagree with you. Yes I have published books and articles and am easily Googled.

Everything we know about Jesus Christ was written by other men, all with their own biases. Everyone loves to apply their own beliefs/fears/desires onto this figure. Indeed if he was to somehow magically reappear today then he would be aghast and appalled by depictions of him on the cross. It would be the same as carrying around tiny racks or iron maidens, or any other symbolic torture devices.

It would be like you just got back from the hospital because you were brutally beaten with golf clubs, and then your friends leave you a new set of golf clubs in your house for when you get back… and ask you to go golfing all the time… and mention how your brutal beating with golf clubs reminds them of the virtues of letting other people play through when you’re going slow out on the course.

Although my PhD is only in English, I am familiar with the notion of Classics.

What is Latin for golf?

bundah said :

I’m puzzled by the didgeridoo message given that while women do not traditionally play them in public ceremonies there are a number of tribes where there are no restrictions on women playing the ‘doo in an informal capacity. So there must be be an absolute sh*tload of sick barren women in the outback unless of course this particular scenario only applies to non-indigenous females.

I have lived and worked in many Aboriginal communities in Nth Qld, NT and WA, and in the North in many areas there is no restriction whatsoever on women using didgeridoos. I saw many played by women in social settings and whilst I never went to a ‘womens ceremony’ I certainly saw women carrying didgeridoos when heading out to a ceremonies that I was aware were going on.

It was only when I moved south that I heard of that some groups down here had this cultural belief.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

So:

– your darling little girl wanted to express her religious beliefs at school, which is totally awesome, and the people who said no are evil bastards

– an Aboriginal person wanted to express their religious beliefs at school, which makes them an evil bastard, and you want to say no which makes you totally awesome

That about cover it?

After this comment, I think we can all agree that at least one education systems has failed to teach comprehension.

poetix said :

We’re not all fighters.

It doesn’t have to be a fight. Surely as an adult you are able to express your opinion to another adult in a rational way?

Or are you saying to your daughter- If you have a problem, not matter what it is, run away from it, don’t try to fix it.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

So:

– your darling little girl wanted to express her religious beliefs at school, which is totally awesome, and the people who said no are evil bastards

– an Aboriginal person wanted to express their religious beliefs at school, which makes them an evil bastard, and you want to say no which makes you totally awesome

That about cover it?

I think you are a fair way off the mark. Try this:

One set of spiritual/religious beliefs is refused, but another is allowed. The OP doesn’t see the fairness in that.

Woody Mann-Caruso7:23 pm 31 Aug 12

So:

– your darling little girl wanted to express her religious beliefs at school, which is totally awesome, and the people who said no are evil bastards

– an Aboriginal person wanted to express their religious beliefs at school, which makes them an evil bastard, and you want to say no which makes you totally awesome

That about cover it?

I don’t think religion has any place in school but I don’t think it should be censored.

On your assertion that private schools offer a better education, I beg to differ. I’ve been to both private and public schools (Canberra Grammar, an overseas international school and a public college in Canberra) and I found that while the public schools were lacking in resources such as textbooks, the actual quality of education was indistinguishable. The reason for the academic difference is simply that private schools lack the lowest level of students because they’ve been expelled or “encouraged” to drop out, whilst that’s not an option in government schools.

grunge_hippy said :

another example of mummy and daddy coming in, fixing the problem by whisking them away to another school.

How have you taught your daughter anything other than that if things upset her, mummy and daddy will make it all better? Your child will grow up with zero resilience to shitty things happening to her. Instead of saying “well, I dont like what happened to you, you dont either but shit happens” or even better, sitting down and discussing this issue with the school, you have taught her that everything can be fixed by you swooping in and putting a band aid on it.

good luck with that as she grows up.

I discussed the whole thing today with her and she said ‘Yes, I was upset, but I’m more rational now.’
I think she’ll be fine. She’ll be at two schools for all her schooling, so that’s not so many. (That’s for #43 as well.). And I think that making sure your child is reasonably happy at school is an important thing for parents to be concerned about, particularly with primary school children.

I feel she is treated with more respect now, and that we did the right thing.

I’m puzzled by the didgeridoo message given that while women do not traditionally play them in public ceremonies there are a number of tribes where there are no restrictions on women playing the ‘doo in an informal capacity. So there must be be an absolute sh*tload of sick barren women in the outback unless of course this particular scenario only applies to non-indigenous females.

grunge_hippy5:37 pm 31 Aug 12

another example of mummy and daddy coming in, fixing the problem by whisking them away to another school. How have you taught your daughter anything other than that if things upset her, mummy and daddy will make it all better? Your child will grow up with zero resilience to shitty things happening to her. Instead of saying “well, I dont like what happened to you, you dont either but shit happens” or even better, sitting down and discussing this issue with the school, you have taught her that everything can be fixed by you swooping in and putting a band aid on it.

good luck with that as she grows up.

poetix said :

maniac said :

I say good, the school should be commended.

Keep religion and religious superstition out of schools. Children are easily brainwashed. Why anyone would want to use a symbol of Roman execution as a religious symbol astounds me?

Because it represents hope and the radical freedom of a spiritual triumph over an oppressive State? That everyone is worthwhile?

That someone put love before his own life?

But please remember that this was the genuine gesture of a child who just wanted to do something to remember soldiers who died fighting.

Actually as I have a PhD in Classics (or ancient history to you) I am a foremost authority on Roman Imperial and Early Byzantine History and I completely disagree with you. Yes I have published books and articles and am easily Googled.

Everything we know about Jesus Christ was written by other men, all with their own biases. Everyone loves to apply their own beliefs/fears/desires onto this figure. Indeed if he was to somehow magically reappear today then he would be aghast and appalled by depictions of him on the cross. It would be the same as carrying around tiny racks or iron maidens, or any other symbolic torture devices.

It would be like you just got back from the hospital because you were brutally beaten with golf clubs, and then your friends leave you a new set of golf clubs in your house for when you get back… and ask you to go golfing all the time… and mention how your brutal beating with golf clubs reminds them of the virtues of letting other people play through when you’re going slow out on the course.

poetix said :

Duffbowl said :

Last year, we removed our daughter from an Anglican school when it became apparent that the school practiced concepts of guilt as punishment, and an expectation that bullying should be accepted if the intent of the bully was to bring the person to greater knowledge of God and the Church.

That is bizarre, and totally unacceptable.

Yes, and when confronted, both the Principal and Bursar told me that they believed nothing improper had happened. Anyway, rant over, and I hope your daughter has settled in and enjoying her time at school.

The problem with all of these “Politically correct” rules for schools these days is that they sanitise everything. Kids go through there entire school life without any exposure to any other religion. Certainly, many will discuss religion with their family and attend their own place of worship, but this can often lead to the development of a biased view of the world.
In the end, not allowing the kiddies to discuss, or display symbols of their religion, ends up breeding intolerance. Kids learn that they don’t have to accept the religious views of others, rather than letting them all express themselves, (to a degree) in the somewhat controlled environment of a schoolyard where they can all learn a bit of tolerence, Or have tolerence beaten into them.

It’s the same with Santa, (who, lets face it, isn’t really a religious icon), being banned from shopping plazas. Screw that, keep Santa and open the food courts after dark during Ramadan, let the Hare Krishna people hand out their little stickers and we can all get along without trying to tell everyone else they’re wrong.

pink little birdie2:13 pm 31 Aug 12

the digeridoo thing. It’s women in childbearing ages (first period to menopause) so primary school students shouldn’t have been told that.

What an insensitive idiot the teacher had to have been to tell off a child for doing something well-meaning for Remembrance Day.

I *am* an atheist but far out, if a child is religious they should be allowed to express that part of their lives in a meaningful way. It’s not like your daughter was lecturing her non-Christian classmates about the fire and brimstone awaiting them upon their miserable heathen deaths.

I don’t think this is a public school issue. I think this is a failure of the teacher. All you would have to do is use it as an example for the class of how even though everyone has different beliefs, we can all respect and honour people who have made sacrifices, although we might do it in different ways.

Duffbowl said :

Last year, we removed our daughter from an Anglican school when it became apparent that the school practiced concepts of guilt as punishment, and an expectation that bullying should be accepted if the intent of the bully was to bring the person to greater knowledge of God and the Church.

That is bizarre, and totally unacceptable.

thelozenger said :

It’s strange that a catholic school seems more accepting of religion than government schools

Christian culture has been around for centuries and is therefore far more mature, balanced and secure than the crypto-marxist politically-correct nonsense culture in evidence in public institutions today.

p1 said :

dpm said :

Unfortunately, it’s just more of the public vs private (sorry, ‘independent’) …

If by independent you mean still receives quite a lot of funding from the government. Personally, I wish everyone would go back to calling them private schools, rather then let them get away with that little bit of image manipulation.

p1, if the commies in charge of public education think they can win another Catholic Schools strike, I will be amused to see them try.

The commies tried this with Calvary. And lost.

Imposing their politically-correct autocracy on us will never succeed. Public schools have bled pupils for years now, to the point where the independent school systems are over-enrolled and unable to accept any more.

So long as the commies keep making a nuisance of themselves, the public school system will continue to fail, to experience dropping standards and plummeting academic achievement.

Last year, we removed our daughter from an Anglican school when it became apparent that the school practiced concepts of guilt as punishment, and an expectation that bullying should be accepted if the intent of the bully was to bring the person to greater knowledge of God and the Church.

Mordd said :

I’m sorry, the actual issues being discussed here put aside for one moment, one line of this really stood out for me:

“I made no protest against my daughter’s treatment, because we had the option and ability to remove her.”

How on earth do you expect things to change if you say nothing? If you had an issue with the treatment, why not tell them that, or try to get some common sense injected into the school’s policy? Instead you admittedly remain silent on the issue, then come whinging on RA about it after moving your daughter to another school…. well frankly I have zero sympathy for you regardless of how I feel about the actual issues you raise, because someone who does not even speak up when they have an issue to the ppl who could actually change things, and instead go whining to to the people who have no power at all to change things, is pretty pathetic in my book.

We’re not all fighters.

Pandy said :

maniac said :

I say good, the school should be commended.

Keep religion and religious superstition out of schools. Children are easily brainwashed. Why anyone would want to use a symbol of Roman execution as a religious symbol astounds me?

So who gives crap about touching a didgeridoo? Or name dead first nation Australians? Hey and don’t tell me I cannot climb Ayres Rock OK!

Seems to me this is Christian bashing

I would not climb Uluru as I think that would be disrespectful. I really don’t want this to be seen as having a go at other beliefs.

At her current school, my daughter studies all religions and philosophy, although it is a Christian school.

dpm said :

poetix said :

That’s freaky! I just donned my hoodie for the gym. But today is upper body.

Yep, i’ve heard that’s how it is with you private school mums.
Admit it, that’s the real reason you ditched public for private – so you didn’t need to volunteer at school as much and could then spend more time pumping iron! So selfish!! Hahaha! 😉

Sprung!

Very interesting.

I went to a Catholic school in Canberra. They seemed to respect all religions there- there were girls who were Muslim or Jewish and were treated no differently. They had rules about uniform- no jewelry or non uniform items- unless they were religious. Meaning you could wear a cross necklace, or a star of david bracelet, or a headscarf.

If someone didn’t want to particpate during mass because they were not Catholic, they didn’t have to. Obviously they had to sit there during, but didn’t have to accept a blessing or communion.

It’s strange that a catholic school seems more accepting of religion than government schools

maniac said :

I say good, the school should be commended.

Keep religion and religious superstition out of schools. Children are easily brainwashed. Why anyone would want to use a symbol of Roman execution as a religious symbol astounds me?

Because it represents hope and the radical freedom of a spiritual triumph over an oppressive State? That everyone is worthwhile? That someone put love before his own life?

But please remember that this was the genuine gesture of a child who just wanted to do something to remember soldiers who died fighting.

maniac said :

I say good, the school should be commended.

Keep religion and religious superstition out of schools. Children are easily brainwashed. Why anyone would want to use a symbol of Roman execution as a religious symbol astounds me?

So who gives crap about touching a didgeridoo? Or name dead first nation Australians? Hey and don’t tell me I cannot climb Ayres Rock OK!

Seems to me this is Christian bashing

maniac said :

Children are easily brainwashed. Why anyone would want to use a symbol of Roman execution as a religious symbol astounds me?

Good point. I look forward to seeing the new designs you propose for the Military Cross, Victoria Cross, Long Tan Cross and other symbols of respect used by different nations to acknowledge the contributions and sacrifices of their soldiers over the centuries.

dtc said :

Stevian said :

Keeping partisan religion out of schools is a good idea. You do realize a cross as a tribute dishonours every non-christian soldier, or do only Christians count in your world.

I’m very much an aethiest, but this is a stupid comment. The person giving the tribute is a Christian, that is how she gives her tributes. If she was another religion she might give a tribute in another way (leaving a stone, perhaps). If not religious, maybe flowers or whatever. The tribute is not being given only to Christian soldiers, its being given to all soldiers.

Now, possibly those soldiers (if alive) would not feel that the form of the tribute meant much to them. But I suspect they would nonetheless appreciate the sentiment.

Schools should not tell students how to conduct themselves in what is a private decision.

+1

It is interesting in this context that one of the world’s leading atheists has been calling for a secular symbolism. I’m not an atheist, but I have no objections to that; what interests me is how such symbols might be considered in this context. Personally, I think it’s just as obnoxious to try to force atheism on others as it is to try to force religion on others. Just decide what you believe and believe it, don’t insist that all Chrismujews (to borrow Homer Simpson’s term) conform to your beliefs also!

And as long as it doesn’t have an adverse effect on others, any individual should be able to express and act according to his/her own beliefs. While there are some issues that sit in a grey area on this (such as whether a person wearing a hijab poses a threat to the community), the use of a cross to honour the fallen is hardly one of them.

The policy is blatantly intolerant. Lucky we don’t have any rights, otherwise the school in question would be in breach of them!

I say good, the school should be commended.

Keep religion and religious superstition out of schools. Children are easily brainwashed. Why anyone would want to use a symbol of Roman execution as a religious symbol astounds me?

Kerryhemsley11:57 am 31 Aug 12

“In fact, now that I think about it, your post would have done a lot better as a ‘debate’ thread if you had stuck to the issue for your move, instead of then mentioning, PR-style, how much better the ‘independent’ school was as an option. That’s probably what made me read it as another anti-public school tirade.”

Riot Act seems to dig these tirades out. There was another forum poster that spent a lot of time pumping up an Anglican school in Gungahlin while bagging the public system. Seems to have dropped off lately or changed his name. Not sure if it makes them feel better to spit it all out or whether the school needs the numbers.

thy_dungeonman11:56 am 31 Aug 12

Stevian said :

Keeping partisan religion out of schools is a good idea. You do realize a cross as a tribute dishonours every non-christian soldier, or do only Christians count in your world.

I have been to the war memorial and to Gallipoli and it seems christian rhetoric and symbolism is everywhere on memorials and graves. Which makes sense given the culture of the time, surely it would be confusing for a child to be told they could use a cross for remembrance day display unless you gave them a good explanation of how commemoration has become secular. Even if every soldier wasn’t christian I’m sure some were and I think they would appreciate the cross.

Stevian said :

Keeping partisan religion out of schools is a good idea. You do realize a cross as a tribute dishonours every non-christian soldier, or do only Christians count in your world.

I’m very much an aethiest, but this is a stupid comment. The person giving the tribute is a Christian, that is how she gives her tributes. If she was another religion she might give a tribute in another way (leaving a stone, perhaps). If not religious, maybe flowers or whatever. The tribute is not being given only to Christian soldiers, its being given to all soldiers.

Now, possibly those soldiers (if alive) would not feel that the form of the tribute meant much to them. But I suspect they would nonetheless appreciate the sentiment.

Schools should not tell students how to conduct themselves in what is a private decision.

poetix said :

That’s freaky! I just donned my hoodie for the gym. But today is upper body.

Yep, i’ve heard that’s how it is with you private school mums.
Admit it, that’s the real reason you ditched public for private – so you didn’t need to volunteer at school as much and could then spend more time pumping iron! So selfish!! Hahaha! 😉

I’m sorry, the actual issues being discussed here put aside for one moment, one line of this really stood out for me:

“I made no protest against my daughter’s treatment, because we had the option and ability to remove her.”

How on earth do you expect things to change if you say nothing? If you had an issue with the treatment, why not tell them that, or try to get some common sense injected into the school’s policy? Instead you admittedly remain silent on the issue, then come whinging on RA about it after moving your daughter to another school…. well frankly I have zero sympathy for you regardless of how I feel about the actual issues you raise, because someone who does not even speak up when they have an issue to the ppl who could actually change things, and instead go whining to to the people who have no power at all to change things, is pretty pathetic in my book.

Holden Caulfield11:43 am 31 Aug 12

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

poetix said :

You did well, dear dpm!

You haven’t addressed my main questions about religion though. At all. Just saying.

Religion should be taught in public school, strictly in a historical sense, and all religion not just christianity.

Takeing away a childs right to religious freedom though is completely disgusting and who ever implements such rules needs to be sacked.

What about spelling and grammar?

Stevian said :

Keeping partisan religion out of schools is a good idea. You do realize a cross as a tribute dishonours every non-christian soldier, or do only Christians count in your world.

You mean like the Long Tan Cross which is currently on loan to the Australian War Memorial?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-17/gg-unveils-long-tan-cross/4206426

dpm said :

poetix said :

You haven’t addressed my main questions about religion though. At all. Just saying.

Hahaha! Yes, well, when I skimmed over it, it simply read as another rag-on-the-school-system thread.
Sure, the reason behind your situation is different, but I was ignoring the one-off ‘case study’ of your story* and just cutting to the chase, so to speak!
I’m sure everyone has a valid reason behind their decisions, and it’s not my place to say if their choice is right or wrong (however, your thread will have given people in the ‘independent’ system another good justification for their choice!).

* OK, in your case, it does sound like bureaucracy and policy gone mad, but wotcha gunna do? Some people probably complained to get that rule, now others are complaining about it – they are damned if they do, damned if they don’t. It really depends on each individual family if that is enough reason to swap schools. Luckily for you, you don’t have to worry about it anymore.
In fact, now that I think about it, your post would have done a lot better as a ‘debate’ thread if you had stuck to the issue for your move, instead of then mentioning, PR-style, how much better the ‘independent’ school was as an option. That’s probably what made me read it as another anti-public school tirade. Now, go do some squats….

That’s freaky! I just donned my hoodie for the gym. But today is upper body.

The only way the schools actions would have been warranted is if your daughter was going around trying to force people to convert (which I highly doubt she was).

I’d complain to the school. The cross is hardly a religious symbol anymore. It is a cultural one – It is quite common to see on gravestones even when the deceased is not Christian.

We are taught to be accepting of other cultures which I agree with 100%. But it applies to everyone. I highly doubt there were any complaints from any parents. I bet you will dfind a copy of the bible in the schools library. Perhaps you should tell them they should get rid of that?

poetix said :

Stevian said :

Keeping partisan religion out of schools is a good idea. You do realize a cross as a tribute dishonours every non-christian soldier, or do only Christians count in your world.

Anone who has read any of my comments in favour of the mosque, or even my post above, will know that that is not the case. That is an unecessarily offensive remark.

Sorry, that should read Anyone. Stevian made me do a typo!

p1 said :

dpm said :

Unfortunately, it’s just more of the public vs private (sorry, ‘independent’) …

If by independent you mean still receives quite a lot of funding from the government. Personally, I wish everyone would go back to calling them private schools, rather then let them get away with that little bit of image manipulation.

You may be right. I thought it just meant independent from the Government system.

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd11:29 am 31 Aug 12

Stevian said :

Keeping partisan religion out of schools is a good idea. You do realize a cross as a tribute dishonours every non-christian soldier, or do only Christians count in your world.

How did you come to that conclusion ?_?

Stevian said :

Keeping partisan religion out of schools is a good idea. You do realize a cross as a tribute dishonours every non-christian soldier, or do only Christians count in your world.

Anone who has read any of my comments in favour of the mosque, or even my post above, will know that that is not the case. That is an unecessarily offensive remark.

poetix said :

You haven’t addressed my main questions about religion though. At all. Just saying.

Hahaha! Yes, well, when I skimmed over it, it simply read as another rag-on-the-school-system thread.
Sure, the reason behind your situation is different, but I was ignoring the one-off ‘case study’ of your story* and just cutting to the chase, so to speak!
I’m sure everyone has a valid reason behind their decisions, and it’s not my place to say if their choice is right or wrong (however, your thread will have given people in the ‘independent’ system another good justification for their choice!).

* OK, in your case, it does sound like bureaucracy and policy gone mad, but wotcha gunna do? Some people probably complained to get that rule, now others are complaining about it – they are damned if they do, damned if they don’t. It really depends on each individual family if that is enough reason to swap schools. Luckily for you, you don’t have to worry about it anymore.
In fact, now that I think about it, your post would have done a lot better as a ‘debate’ thread if you had stuck to the issue for your move, instead of then mentioning, PR-style, how much better the ‘independent’ school was as an option. That’s probably what made me read it as another anti-public school tirade. Now, go do some squats….

It seems to me that the problem is the way it was handled, not what was done.

I thoroughly agree that religious symbols should have no place in public schools, but if your daughter felt that she’d done something wrong then clearly it was handled with amazing incompetence.

The appropriate thing would have been for the teacher to have a quiet chat to, tell her how nice her tribute was and that it was valued, but explaining (in age-appropriate terms) why there are better ways of showing her respect.

Done well, she should have come out of it feeling good about herself and her action, and with a better understanding of the situation. Clearly it wasn’t done well.

Incompetence, sadly, isn’t confined to the public or private sectors. But don’t confuse incompetence with malice.

poetix said :

You haven’t addressed my main questions about religion though.

Unfortunately your rabble-rousing diatribe will probably generate more discussion about passive aggressive parents than questioning the place of religion in public schools.

Keeping partisan religion out of schools is a good idea. You do realize a cross as a tribute dishonours every non-christian soldier, or do only Christians count in your world.

Perhaps what they meant was “no religious symbols that might offend those who take offense on behalf of minorities they don’t represent”?

I wonder if your daughter expresses a desire to become a muslim whether the school would be as free and open?

colourful sydney racing identity11:03 am 31 Aug 12

That is a very poor effort on behalf of the school.

I am amazed by the levels of hypocrisy, when it comes to religion, that exist in large sections of the community – bash the catholics and scientologists as much as you want but, whatever you do, don’t say anything bad about islam or indigenous belief systems…

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd10:58 am 31 Aug 12

poetix said :

You did well, dear dpm!

You haven’t addressed my main questions about religion though. At all. Just saying.

Religion should be taught in public school, strictly in a historical sense, and all religion not just christianity.

Takeing away a childs right to religious freedom though is completely disgusting and who ever implements such rules needs to be sacked.

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd10:55 am 31 Aug 12

Name and shame.

Far out that really upsetting. The amount of dumb rules inplace at public schools is getting out of hand.

My girls will be going through the catholic system as from my vast knowledge of act schooling, is the superior system.

dpm said :

Unfortunately, it’s just more of the public vs private (sorry, ‘independent’) …

If by independent you mean still receives quite a lot of funding from the government. Personally, I wish everyone would go back to calling them private schools, rather then let them get away with that little bit of image manipulation.

You did well, dear dpm!

You haven’t addressed my main questions about religion though. At all. Just saying.

Unfortunately, it’s just more of the public vs private (sorry, ‘independent’) school p1ssing contest.
Same as any number of previous threads on the topic.
Your ‘lack of options for intelligent kids’ was a nice touch too. Hopefully all of them (the intelligent kids languishing in public schools) will be ushered away safely to the expansive environs of the ‘independent’ school world – before it is too late for them…..!

There, did I do OK in the slanging match?? 🙂

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