8 October 2013

On roundabouts

| johnboy
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roundabout

With Canberra so famous for its roundabouts it’s worth noting The Economist has a story on their history, and the social capital required to make them work:

The fate of roundabouts abroad thus repeats in miniature that of another British export, parliamentary democracy—another fine idea that backfires when mixed with jiggery-pokery. Just as democracy tends not to work without a free press, an independent judiciary and other helpful institutions, so roundabouts need decent drivers, straight police and reasonable infrastructure to function. The lesson of both is that fine ideas can wind up looking naive if they take no account of context and history. Swindon wasn’t built in a day.

Something to think about.

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Shrilekha Chavda8:26 am 15 Jan 18

My husband got stopped by police this morning on his way to work. He was going straight on a roundabout(that means no left or right just straight ahead). The cop told him he needs to indicate. My husband argued that he is going straight but the cop gave him warning and notice. Any suggestions?

From my memory of the Australian Road Rules (ARR): No indication on entering the roundabout and (if safe and practicable) indicate left after passing the first exit to show other road users he is about to exit.

Note that indicating to exit is ‘strongly encouraged’ (my paraphrasing) but, because of the practicality clause, cannot be enforced.

I have not read the latest ARR, but that is my recollection. Myself, I would download the ARR, look at the relevant ACT Act to check for local variations, and then politely request the notice be withdrawn. But, I would also consider which roundabout – easier to argue about practicality on a small roundabout than a large one.

Shrilekha Chavda8:37 pm 17 Jan 18

Thank you so much. That’s very helpful. I’ll definitely download the rules and read thoroughly. It was a small single lane roundabout. My husband goes through the same route everyday for work. Thank you replying.

Felix the Cat12:43 pm 10 Oct 13

artuoui said :

And how do we stop those dickheads who think they need to indicate right to enter a roundabout, then indicate left to get out of it again?

Mandantory licence retesting every 5 years and getting Police to understand the rules and enforce them.

BimboGeek said :

Geez this thread has jinxed the crazies out of hiding tonight. Just now on my 10 minute drive home some moron actually tried to turn right from the left lane of a roundabout

I had a Canberra driving instructor recommend I do that as, before the national rules, the left lane had right of way on roundabouts. (was)Legal but insane.

BimboGeek said :

Geez this thread has jinxed the crazies out of hiding tonight. Just now on my 10 minute drive home some moron actually tried to turn right from the left lane of a roundabout… Over the top of me! Then having recovered from that, a few minutes later the next numpty tried to exit left from the middle lane… Over the top of me! What the hell, Canberra! Sober up and get a sense of direction!

Similar happened to me the other day. At the Parkes Way, Coranderrk Street roundabout had a car turn right (to do a u turn back down Parkes Way) from the left lane, though fortunately he was indicating right so I was expecting it. Then down at the roundabout leading into Russell Offices I had a car think it was a single lane roundabout and nearly got side swiped by him cutting the lanes.

What you said.

quote comment=”502251″]

watto23 said :

Not strictly law. There is a clause saying where it is safe and practical to do so. There is always give way to the right, which is a give way sign and not a stop sign. Yes some peoples definition of giving way amuses me, either very extreme or very conservative.

On a small 1 laned roundabout, indicate left to turn left, right to turn right and no indication to go straight. Basically a left indicator to exit straight would need to be made very late in the intersection to avoid confusion with those turning left and thus rendering it meaningless anyway.

On dual lane roundabounts and larger roundabouts the rules are simple but many have no idea.
Before entering the roundabout, indicate left to turn left and keep indicating as you exit. Generally only done from the left lane except where marked.

For straight ahead it enter the intersection in either lane, where safe to do so (giving way to right), then indicate left to exit, normally as you have past the last left hand exit and are around the middle of the intersection.

For right turn its indicate right entering in the right lane (unless otherwise marked) and then indicate left after you pass the straight exit.

I dare say the people who can’t navigate roundabouts also can’t merge at 80 or 100 though.

Watto23 close but no cigar. In your simple instructions you have made one classic roundabout mistake, which is you said to give way to the right. The law on roundabouts is give way to ANY vehicle already on the roundabout. That vehicle could be ‘in front’ (on your left if you will) of you already. Basically if a vehicle on your left enters the roundabout first you also need to give way to them as well as any vehicle on your right already on the roundabout.

Also the left indicate on exit there is no mention of safety. It basically says if practicable to do so a driver must give a left change of direction signal on exit.

But other than that most of what you wrote is ok.

Geez this thread has jinxed the crazies out of hiding tonight. Just now on my 10 minute drive home some moron actually tried to turn right from the left lane of a roundabout… Over the top of me! Then having recovered from that, a few minutes later the next numpty tried to exit left from the middle lane… Over the top of me! What the hell, Canberra! Sober up and get a sense of direction!

Holden Caulfield9:20 pm 09 Oct 13

Aeek said :

I once nearly pulled out of a driveway, next to a roundabout, in front of a motorbike because he signalled left on entry, right on exit, to go straight through. I believe that was a Queensland thing.

That’s a bit harsh, implying all Queenslanders are stupid!

watto23 said :

Not strictly law. There is a clause saying where it is safe and practical to do so. There is always give way to the right, which is a give way sign and not a stop sign. Yes some peoples definition of giving way amuses me, either very extreme or very conservative.

On a small 1 laned roundabout, indicate left to turn left, right to turn right and no indication to go straight. Basically a left indicator to exit straight would need to be made very late in the intersection to avoid confusion with those turning left and thus rendering it meaningless anyway.

On dual lane roundabounts and larger roundabouts the rules are simple but many have no idea.
Before entering the roundabout, indicate left to turn left and keep indicating as you exit. Generally only done from the left lane except where marked.

For straight ahead it enter the intersection in either lane, where safe to do so (giving way to right), then indicate left to exit, normally as you have past the last left hand exit and are around the middle of the intersection.

For right turn its indicate right entering in the right lane (unless otherwise marked) and then indicate left after you pass the straight exit.

I dare say the people who can’t navigate roundabouts also can’t merge at 80 or 100 though.

Watto23 close but no cigar. In your simple instructions you have made one classic roundabout mistake, which is you said to give way to the right. The law on roundabouts is give way to ANY vehicle already on the roundabout. That vehicle could be ‘in front’ (on your left if you will) of you already. Basically if a vehicle on your left enters the roundabout first you also need to give way to them as well as any vehicle on your right already on the roundabout.

Also the left indicate on exit there is no mention of safety. It basically says if practicable to do so a driver must give a left change of direction signal on exit.

But other than that most of what you wrote is ok.

johnboy said :

if two cars arrive at the roundabout at the same time, they can both enter seeing as they’re already separated and going in the same direction.

All traffic on a roundabout (in this country) comes from the right. If they’re already on the roundabout give way to them.

Give way to the right therefore is almost always the thing to do.

Although be aware that you might have to give way to the left as well – if you’re blasting in at 80 from the right, and someone turns onto the roundabout to your left before you get there but only doing 40, you will necessarily need to slow down for them.

Madam Cholet4:58 pm 09 Oct 13

BimboGeek said :

Majuraman it probably depends where you learned to drive. I did my lessons in Canberra then sat the test in Wodonga, where I was promptly failed for doing a normal Canberra style duck and dodge instead of waiting for the roundabout to be completely clear, which to be fair, is pretty easy on that one (it wasn’t on Beechworth Road…)

quote]

I learned to drive in the UK where the rule all that time ago was give way to the right. This obviously works well for me as it was the first rule I learned.

My problem with the ‘first on the roundabout’ rule is that if you are sitting at a roundabout where cars just keep flying through – and I’m thinking here of the one at the bottom of Johnson Drive in Calwell where cars coming down Johnson Drive go 80Ks (or more) onto the roundabout. Because the roads coming onto the roundabout form the other directions are quiet, they don’t expect anyone to get on in front of them. It would be taking your life into your hands to do it I can tell you even if you could tell the polis that you had the legal right away after a car ploughed right into the drivers side door! So, it’s all very well having this as the rule, but it doesn’t always work.

My favourite roundabout of all time is one in the UK that was lovingly called ‘the magic roundabout’. It once was the biggest roundabout you’d ever seen, but having realised as I said above that some traffic could not get onto it at peak hours without risking life and limb, they decided to modify it – by putting six mini roundabouts around the big roundabout. So the rule was that you could go any direction around the big roundabout, but you had to go clockwise around the little ones. And it worked a treat. It was like some kind of vehicular ballet.

I once nearly pulled out of a driveway, next to a roundabout, in front of a motorbike because he signalled left on entry, right on exit, to go straight through. I believe that was a Queensland thing.

majuraman said :

Can anyone answer this?- I am under the impression that the first car on the roundabout has right of way. It seems that the majority of drivers are under the impression that cars entering the roundabout from the right, have right of way- Which is true?

“A driver entering a roundabout must give way to any vehicle in the roundabout.”

But this is where the ‘social capital’ comes in; two cars arrive at the same time, someone has to yield. As far as I know there’s no ‘rule’ governing it, it’s just accepted convention.

I’ve been road-raged over this type of thing – that’s why it makes sense to me to stick to the convention.

if two cars arrive at the roundabout at the same time, they can both enter seeing as they’re already separated and going in the same direction.

All traffic on a roundabout (in this country) comes from the right. If they’re already on the roundabout give way to them.

Give way to the right therefore is almost always the thing to do.

But the point is to wait until there’s a gap to get on.

Unlike a four way stop a roundabout can, and is intended to, have multiple cars on it at the same time.

Majuraman it probably depends where you learned to drive. I did my lessons in Canberra then sat the test in Wodonga, where I was promptly failed for doing a normal Canberra style duck and dodge instead of waiting for the roundabout to be completely clear, which to be fair, is pretty easy on that one (it wasn’t on Beechworth Road…)

If people are being trained to be timid on roundabouts it takes a while for them to get used to the big ones, even if they’ve already got ACT plates you can’t assume they are locals.

I only once had someone indicate right to exit while alongside me. I was in the right lane going through, he was in the left lane also going through then hit his right indicator as if to turn right after all. Naturally I hit the anchors pretty hard and got ready to steer around to the right if needed to avoid a crash then watched him sail out straight ahead as if nothing strange had happened. What a failure of a human!!

Can anyone answer this?- I am under the impression that the first car on the roundabout has right of way. It seems that the majority of drivers are under the impression that cars entering the roundabout from the right, have right of way- Which is true? My expectations have come close to causing bingles in roundabouts and frustration waiting to enter as cars in front of me are giving way, at the roundabout , to cars entering from the right who are still 30 metres away? What is the go?

or the ones who MUST GET IN FRONT at all costs less they slow down for approximately 3 seconds…. *rolls eyes..*

cue the middle aged business man who almost killed me yesterday at the Lennox Gardens roundabout because he just HAD to push through first…. mr silver sports car starting with rego starting xxf or xff….

bryansworld said :

Indicating left when exiting, even when simply going straight through, is very helpful to pedestrians. I wish more people would do it. It is also required by law.

Not strictly law. There is a clause saying where it is safe and practical to do so. There is always give way to the right, which is a give way sign and not a stop sign. Yes some peoples definition of giving way amuses me, either very extreme or very conservative.

On a small 1 laned roundabout, indicate left to turn left, right to turn right and no indication to go straight. Basically a left indicator to exit straight would need to be made very late in the intersection to avoid confusion with those turning left and thus rendering it meaningless anyway.

On dual lane roundabounts and larger roundabouts the rules are simple but many have no idea.
Before entering the roundabout, indicate left to turn left and keep indicating as you exit. Generally only done from the left lane except where marked.

For straight ahead it enter the intersection in either lane, where safe to do so (giving way to right), then indicate left to exit, normally as you have past the last left hand exit and are around the middle of the intersection.

For right turn its indicate right entering in the right lane (unless otherwise marked) and then indicate left after you pass the straight exit.

I dare say the people who can’t navigate roundabouts also can’t merge at 80 or 100 though.

Yep, it’s a worry how many people think they have right of way because the car in front is going through and they are moving fast. Especially scary when you are on a bicycle or motorbike and arrived at the roundabout before they did…

EvanJames said :

Blen_Carmichael said :

Drivers travelling south on the Yarra Glen looking to exit into Melrose Drive are often flying, some to the extent where they can’t possibly stop safely to give way to traffic already on the roundabout.

They are no doubt part of the ignorant majority who still think that if they’re approaching from the right, they have right of way, even before their wheels are on the roundabout.

Flying up to and into an intersection is generally a bad idea, it’s an intersection. Even if a car does have right of way, sensible people realise that an intersections, there are many vehicles coming together. Being able to avoid hitting one, yes even if it’s “in the wrong”, is the preferred option.

Indicating left when exiting, even when simply going straight through, is very helpful to pedestrians. I wish more people would do it. It is also required by law.

Blen_Carmichael said :

Drivers travelling south on the Yarra Glen looking to exit into Melrose Drive are often flying, some to the extent where they can’t possibly stop safely to give way to traffic already on the roundabout.

They are no doubt part of the ignorant majority who still think that if they’re approaching from the right, they have right of way, even before their wheels are on the roundabout.

Flying up to and into an intersection is generally a bad idea, it’s an intersection. Even if a car does have right of way, sensible people realise that an intersections, there are many vehicles coming together. Being able to avoid hitting one, yes even if it’s “in the wrong”, is the preferred option.

EvanJames said :

In the US, they have four-way stop signs, which rely even more on a certain degree of social capitol. And they work very well, I have never actually seen anyone exploit them, cheat, barge through or even go when it’s my turn ……

A well-armed nation is a polite nation….

artuoui said :

And how do we stop those dickheads who think they need to indicate right to enter a roundabout, then indicate left to get out of it again, when they’re going straight ahead?

The indicating left to exit is required “if practical”, but the indicating right upon entry when they’re going straight is an odd one. I don’t know how you stop it, but it is annoying. It’s also what I think of when people ask why do people stop when entering the outside lane of a two-lane roundabout when the other car is “turning right”.

canberracath10:54 pm 08 Oct 13

I live two houses away from the roundabout in the above photo – before it was put in (2010? 2011 maybe?) there was at least one prang per month on that intersection caused by people speeding along Miller / Boldrewood St, but now there’s maybe one crash every six months. So it’s made a big difference. I’m still waiting to get hit by a car as I cycle through it, though – I’m sure that one day I’ll get clipped as someone takes the corner from Boldrewood onto David Street too quickly and without looking!

artuoui said :

Funny none of the comments have taken up the issue of straight police but have gone directly to abusing Canberra drivers. Why does the Economist even question the ability of queer police to enforce basic traffic regulations? Do the Economist realise the same constraints of ‘context and history’ impacts pretty forcefully on that ‘fine idea’ of free market capitalism they put so much of their own effort into trying to export across the world?

And how do we stop those dickheads who think they need to indicate right to enter a roundabout, then indicate left to get out of it again, when they’re going straight ahead?

Funny none of the comments have taken up the issue of straight police but have gone directly to abusing Canberra drivers. Why does the Economist even question the ability of queer police to enforce basic traffic regulations? Do the Economist realise the same constraints of ‘context and history’ impacts pretty forcefully on that ‘fine idea’ of free market capitalism they put so much of their own effort into trying to export across the world?

And how do we stop those dickheads who think they need to indicate right to enter a roundabout, then indicate left to get out of it again?

Blen_Carmichael6:37 pm 08 Oct 13

The Yarra Glen roundabout usually brings out the lunatics, especially when one is turning right from Melrose Drive into Yamba Drive. Drivers travelling south on the Yarra Glen looking to exit into Melrose Drive are often flying, some to the extent where they can’t possibly stop safely to give way to traffic already on the roundabout.

EvanJames said :

Good article… roundabouts rely on drivers doing the right thing.

Um, I think driving in general relies on drivers doing the right thing.

EvanJames said :

Good article… roundabouts rely on drivers doing the right thing. I posit that too many Canberra region drivers do not do the right thing. Some because they are arseholes, and most because they have absolutely no clue.

In the US, they have four-way stop signs, which rely even more on a certain degree of social capitol. And they work very well, I have never actually seen anyone exploit them, cheat, barge through or even go when it’s my turn and I am still sitting there trying to work out whose turn it is.

As for “no clue”, watch what drivers do on roundabouts. The minority indicate left when they are going to exit the roundabout. This is basic driving, and yet the majority either don’t indicate, or leave their right indicator on. The latter are signalling their breathtaking stupidity.

Good article… roundabouts rely on drivers doing the right thing. I posit that too many Canberra region drivers do not do the right thing. Some because they are arseholes, and most because they have absolutely no clue.

In the US, they have four-way stop signs, which rely even more on a certain degree of social capitol. And they work very well, I have never actually seen anyone exploit them, cheat, barge through or even go when it’s my turn and I am still sitting there trying to work out whose turn it is.

As for “no clue”, watch what drivers do on roundabouts. The minority indicate left when they are going to exit the roundabout. This is basic driving, and yet the majority either don’t indicate, or leave their right indicator on. The latter are signalling their breathtaking stupidity.

Pitchka said :

Driving through a roundabout at anything less that 80km/h is dangerous. No one is expecting you to be driving that slow..

Straight to the pool room!!!

🙂

spades said :

The biggest problem I have with roundabouts in Canberra is tailgating. When I moved here I was surprised at how many times I was being tailgated in roundabouts. Further observation reveals that very few Canberrans slow down to safe speeds.

Driving through a roundabout at anything less that 80km/h is dangerous. No one is expecting you to be driving that slow..

spades said :

The biggest problem I have with roundabouts in Canberra is tailgating. When I moved here I was surprised at how many times I was being tailgated in roundabouts. Further observation reveals that very few Canberrans slow down to safe speeds.

They aren’t stop signs, it seems a good proportion of Canberrans struggle with the concept of a multi lane roundabout…

The problem with Canberra roundabouts is that there a 15 of them on any given 2km stretch of road.

Where is the Tuesday parking snaps? I’ve been hanging out all morning!

The biggest problem I have with roundabouts in Canberra is tailgating. When I moved here I was surprised at how many times I was being tailgated in roundabouts. Further observation reveals that very few Canberrans slow down to safe speeds.

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