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Parking White Commodore in Civic Style

By creative_canberran 4 September 2012 47

white commodore

In case any doubt remained about white commodores, this classic from outside the Greens HQ.

Parked illegally on the corner, nose against the vehicle legally parked in from in loading zone.

Windshield illegally tinted, side windows tinted totally black do you can’t see in (also illegal).

Ticket in the windshield, though with those windows should really be clamped and off the road!

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Parking White Commodore in Civic Style
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rhino 1:02 pm 10 Sep 12

Antagonist said :

rhino said :

And if wider wheels decreases contact patch size, why do drag cars, who are concenred soley with longitudinal grip, use ridiculously wide tyres half the width of my pulsar? Because it makes the contact patch much wider and barely makes a difference in the other direction.

Incorrect. They do go for wider tyres, but the additional traction comes from reducing the tyre pressure to about 6-8 psi to create a LONGER contact patch. This is where the extra longitudinal traction comes from. They also use 90/10 shocks to shift more weight onto the rear wheels, which in turn provides more downward pressure per area. Just look at the footage of a rail car at take off. The first thing you will notice is the tyres become narrower and taller – providing a longer contact patch.

This still does not mean wider tyres give more grip in the wet. Wider tyres are more prone to aquaplaning by virtue of having to move the water further to get it out from under the tyre. About time we agree to disagree, and let this thread die.

The drag car example was not incorrect. They do use wider tyres. Yes they also have low tyre pressures, but even when they get narrower, they are a lot wider than anything that would fit on any remotely stock car. They make them as wide and as long as possible to maximise contact patch.

I agree that what you described is a real issue, but just that it is insignificant in comparison to the other factors. Hence why there are all of those examples above where wider wheels perform better. And in the context of this guy’s commodore, it is not going to make him unable to steer on the road. His choice of tyre will have 10 times more impact than that. Especially since his wheels aren’t even wide by any measure. They aren’t even flush with the guards. I just took a particular disagreement with it especially because nobody would comment if they had the stock wheels and rubbish tyres, but if he had high performance wet weather tyres and aftermarket wheels, people jump on it and try to pretend he is being dangerous by doing so. I would be more offended if he had 21″ wheels on it, just because I would find it offensive to my eyes haha.

Antagonist 3:37 pm 07 Sep 12

rhino said :

And if wider wheels decreases contact patch size, why do drag cars, who are concenred soley with longitudinal grip, use ridiculously wide tyres half the width of my pulsar? Because it makes the contact patch much wider and barely makes a difference in the other direction.

Incorrect. They do go for wider tyres, but the additional traction comes from reducing the tyre pressure to about 6-8 psi to create a LONGER contact patch. This is where the extra longitudinal traction comes from. They also use 90/10 shocks to shift more weight onto the rear wheels, which in turn provides more downward pressure per area. Just look at the footage of a rail car at take off. The first thing you will notice is the tyres become narrower and taller – providing a longer contact patch.

This still does not mean wider tyres give more grip in the wet. Wider tyres are more prone to aquaplaning by virtue of having to move the water further to get it out from under the tyre. About time we agree to disagree, and let this thread die.

rhino 1:14 am 07 Sep 12

Antagonist said :

rhino said :

Wow a racing car crashed one time 20 years ago? Let’s urgently ban all wheels wider than a shopping trolley, that will fix the problem obviously. If the narrower the better, then why not use bicycle wheels? Surely formula 1 engineers would be smart enough to use bicycle wheels for when it starts raining and then switch back to wide ones in the dry. Or perhaps you are incorrect about the severity of this effect.

Now your argument is becoming unreasonable and irrational. The extremes of your examples belittle your argument. Nobody is going to fit bicycle tyres to an F1 car. It comes back to diminishing returns. Too wide – return is diminished. Too narrow – return is again diminished. There is a ‘sweet spot’, but your initial assertion that wider means more grip does not hold true.

When you widen the tyre, the contact patch does not necessarily increase. It gains width, but the length shortens. This may give lateral grip (side-to-side) but gives reduces longitudinal grip (front-to-back). In short, you lose traction under brakes which is where you are most likely going to need it on the roads. Even if you do end up with a (marginally) bigger contact patch, you have less downward pressure on a wider tyre Compare an elephants footprint to the footprint of a ladies high-heel. And since you still have to move the water further to get it out from under the wider tyre that has less dowforce for area, your car is more prone to aquaplaning.

And Bathurst 1992 was not one car crashing one time. It was almost half of the field. They declared the race at around lap 145 or so.

And how wide were the tyres on the skylines in 1992? Less wide than the ones that come on a stock commodore nowadays, and smaller diameter also. So what are you saying is the ideal size? And upgrading from stock wheels to slightly larger ones with better tyres and suspension, like car enthusiasts do, dramatically reduces their grip in the wet? Yet somehow they don’t realise this? Racing cars use much wider tyres but those engineers wouldn’t know what they are talking about either, right? And this guy in his commodore with wheels so narrow that they look almost 2 inches off being flush with the guards a the back has been very unsafe by not sticking with the original wheels with some diamondback chinese tyres keeping well within all regulaions and avoiding all judging eyes from people like the ones in this thread? I disagree.

And if wider wheels decreases contact patch size, why do drag cars, who are concenred soley with longitudinal grip, use ridiculously wide tyres half the width of my pulsar? Because it makes the contact patch much wider and barely makes a difference in the other direction.

Antagonist 8:48 pm 06 Sep 12

rhino said :

Wow a racing car crashed one time 20 years ago? Let’s urgently ban all wheels wider than a shopping trolley, that will fix the problem obviously. If the narrower the better, then why not use bicycle wheels? Surely formula 1 engineers would be smart enough to use bicycle wheels for when it starts raining and then switch back to wide ones in the dry. Or perhaps you are incorrect about the severity of this effect.

Now your argument is becoming unreasonable and irrational. The extremes of your examples belittle your argument. Nobody is going to fit bicycle tyres to an F1 car. It comes back to diminishing returns. Too wide – return is diminished. Too narrow – return is again diminished. There is a ‘sweet spot’, but your initial assertion that wider means more grip does not hold true.

When you widen the tyre, the contact patch does not necessarily increase. It gains width, but the length shortens. This may give lateral grip (side-to-side) but gives reduces longitudinal grip (front-to-back). In short, you lose traction under brakes which is where you are most likely going to need it on the roads. Even if you do end up with a (marginally) bigger contact patch, you have less downward pressure on a wider tyre Compare an elephants footprint to the footprint of a ladies high-heel. And since you still have to move the water further to get it out from under the wider tyre that has less dowforce for area, your car is more prone to aquaplaning.

And Bathurst 1992 was not one car crashing one time. It was almost half of the field. They declared the race at around lap 145 or so.

rhino 4:05 pm 06 Sep 12

Antagonist said :

rhino said :

So having upgraded the suspension and put on better tyres with larger wider wheels, you will have better grip even in the wet and many many times more grip in the dry. Racing cars do not come into the pits when it rains to put narrow wheels on to enhance their wet weather grip, they just get different tyres, because the width is not that significant, the tyres are.

What a load of bollocks. Any engineer will tell you that the reason wide tyres/wheels are illegal on road cars is because of the need to move the water further to get it out from under the tyre. Rego will tell you the same. It is also the same reason insurance companies don’t like wide tyres. It is because water must be moved further to get it out from under a wide tyre, making the car more prone to aquaplaning. No other reason. If wide tyres give so much grip (even in the wet), then insurance companies and the RTA would not have such an issue with them, would they? It is simple physics.

As for race cars pitting, the primary reason is because their racing slicks have no tread to push water out from under the tyres. The wet weather tyres are grooved to assist with water removal, which gives them better grip. The wide tyres did not provide the additional grip you speak of when Skaife crashed his Skyline in the wet at Bathurst in 1992. He still crashed due to aquaplaning because he could not get the water out from under his wide tyres.

No, that is a load of bollocks. Can my old nissan pulsar with 15cm wide tyres go around a sharp corner at 80kph in the wet? No, not even 50. Can a lambroghini with 40cm wide tyres? Yes, with ease. As I said, it is a factor, but an insignificant one in the scheme of things.

Wow a racing car crashed one time 20 years ago? Let’s urgently ban all wheels wider than a shopping trolley, that will fix the problem obviously. If the narrower the better, then why not use bicycle wheels? Surely formula 1 engineers would be smart enough to use bicycle wheels for when it starts raining and then switch back to wide ones in the dry. Or perhaps you are incorrect about the severity of this effect.

p1 2:03 pm 06 Sep 12

All this arguing about tyre sizes misses out on the real reason that the law is restrictive on changing wheel/tyre size and shape. The whole of modern vehicles are designed as a package – brakes, suspension components, wheels, vehicle mass, are all supposed to work in conjunction with each other. Vehicles are then extensively tested to make sure they meet any number of standards. Cars are not test with every possible combination of wheels and tyres.

Antagonist 1:52 pm 06 Sep 12

rhino said :

So having upgraded the suspension and put on better tyres with larger wider wheels, you will have better grip even in the wet and many many times more grip in the dry. Racing cars do not come into the pits when it rains to put narrow wheels on to enhance their wet weather grip, they just get different tyres, because the width is not that significant, the tyres are.

What a load of bollocks. Any engineer will tell you that the reason wide tyres/wheels are illegal on road cars is because of the need to move the water further to get it out from under the tyre. Rego will tell you the same. It is also the same reason insurance companies don’t like wide tyres. It is because water must be moved further to get it out from under a wide tyre, making the car more prone to aquaplaning. No other reason. If wide tyres give so much grip (even in the wet), then insurance companies and the RTA would not have such an issue with them, would they? It is simple physics.

As for race cars pitting, the primary reason is because their racing slicks have no tread to push water out from under the tyres. The wet weather tyres are grooved to assist with water removal, which gives them better grip. The wide tyres did not provide the additional grip you speak of when Skaife crashed his Skyline in the wet at Bathurst in 1992. He still crashed due to aquaplaning because he could not get the water out from under his wide tyres.

p1 10:20 am 06 Sep 12

cynical_rendering said :

Let us not be so presumptuous: The tasteless aftermarket body kit may give the impression that the car sits lower than what it actually does….

Is it just me, or does the tasteless aftermarket body kit also reduce the forward facing area of the headlights? That can’t be legal surely?

Deref 9:41 am 06 Sep 12

Chances of collecting on ticket = 0.

devils_advocate 9:06 am 06 Sep 12

rhino said :

My old pulsar was frankly dangerous in the wet with stock narrow wheels and sloppy stock suspension, whereas a skyline with wheels literally 3 times wider will have many times more grip due to the suspension and better tyres in the wet.

Also, if it’s a *real* skyline, you have the advantage of all 4 wheels providing traction in a front-angle slip situation, rather than just 2.

They should ban cars that are exclusively front-wheel drive, they’re just unsafe.

rhino 11:27 pm 05 Sep 12

POK said :

While I agree the nitpicking is quite pedantic, it serves a purpose. Heavily tinted windows are flags or annoyances. They say (1) That the driver doesn’t care to follow the rules the rest of us follow, (2) The driver doesn’t care if his/her vanity is more important than safety, and (3) that the driver might have something to hide.
Sure if we all minded our own businesses life would be swell, but the world is full of “shit happens”, and its natural for people to not want it to happen to them or within their community. This guy would just be another young person with their fav car out on the street, until they validated anything negative others would think about them by choosing to park right up someone’s rear.
As my father once said to me on a long night drive: “I know your eyes are in the wrong place, because its pitch black and your high beams aren’t on”. I know this guy isn’t lane changing properly, because he hasn’t compensated for his lack of vision with bigger mirrors. Which btw is what those of us driving vehicles with obstructed views do. The view doesn’t protect us- we’re in the larger vehicle. Hopefully the criticism will lead to a better driver. (Don’t worry, my dad also made sure I turned off my beams well before they would blind or annoy others)

For your points: 1) See my point above about following pointless rules blindly. ie. have you ever downloaded a song without paying, recorded songs off the radio or movies off tv, crossed a road when the pedestrian crossing light was not green but nobody was around etc. These things are against the rules but not a big deal. 2)Vanity is an unfair word. I’m certain you and everyone else chooses a car significantly because of how it looks also. If you don’t deem it unsafe, then how your car looks is rightly a big deal. You may just disagree on the safety aspect. He doesn’t appear to have had an accident in it and could see out much easier than you can see in, so he can most likely see fine. This level of tint is legal in other places. 3) Who cares if they have something to hide? Maybe they are ugly, but that’s their business.

I’m glad that you turn off your high beams for people though. It’s annoying when people don’t do that. That is the type of thing that really makes a difference on the roads, just general consideration of others. Along with attention, experience and skill. Awareness of the cars around you is massively important.

As I said, if this guy parked that guy in front in, then he is an inconsiderate person who should get fined, but otherwise nothing to see here.

cynical_rendering 11:19 pm 05 Sep 12

Let us not be so presumptuous: The tasteless aftermarket body kit may give the impression that the car sits lower than what it actually does, and having tinted side and rear windows can sometimes make your windshield look tinted when it is not necessarily the case (does the windshield look that much darker than those of the vehicles parked behind it?)

Let us be presumptuous: It is probably safe to assume that the driver of this chariot is one of those Hi-Vis bogans that recklessly weaves in and out of traffic, only to arrive at the next set of lights 2 cars ahead than what he would have if he drove like he didn’t have to compensate for something.

Either way, the $90 he has to spend on the fine is $90 less than what he can spend on his next tribal tattoo.

rhino 11:02 pm 05 Sep 12

Antagonist said :

rhino said :

What would it matter if his wheels were larger? Having that extra grip would somehow be a bad thing?

That might be true in dry weather, but the opposite is true in wet weather. In wet weather the water has to travel further to get out from under the tyre, which makes the car more prone to aquaplaning.

The effect of that is often exaggerated. The tyre makes much more difference than that. Plus other things like suspension come into play very significantly. My old pulsar was frankly dangerous in the wet with stock narrow wheels and sloppy stock suspension, whereas a skyline with wheels literally 3 times wider will have many times more grip due to the suspension and better tyres in the wet.

So having upgraded the suspension and put on better tyres with larger wider wheels, you will have better grip even in the wet and many many times more grip in the dry. Racing cars do not come into the pits when it rains to put narrow wheels on to enhance their wet weather grip, they just get different tyres, because the width is not that significant, the tyres are.

Another thing they don’t mention is that old tyres are less grippy in the dry than newer ones with far less tread. As the rubber gets older, it grips much less in the dry. Tread is important in the wet though. But if you drive on the same tyres for years, they are probably not that good anymore for grip even if they have plenty of tread on them. There’s a lot more to grip than the limited few things they focus on like tread depth, keeping to a specific size etc without regard for any of the other far more significant factors.

POK 10:37 pm 05 Sep 12

While I agree the nitpicking is quite pedantic, it serves a purpose. Heavily tinted windows are flags or annoyances. They say (1) That the driver doesn’t care to follow the rules the rest of us follow, (2) The driver doesn’t care if his/her vanity is more important than safety, and (3) that the driver might have something to hide.
Sure if we all minded our own businesses life would be swell, but the world is full of “shit happens”, and its natural for people to not want it to happen to them or within their community. This guy would just be another young person with their fav car out on the street, until they validated anything negative others would think about them by choosing to park right up someone’s rear.
As my father once said to me on a long night drive: “I know your eyes are in the wrong place, because its pitch black and your high beams aren’t on”. I know this guy isn’t lane changing properly, because he hasn’t compensated for his lack of vision with bigger mirrors. Which btw is what those of us driving vehicles with obstructed views do. The view doesn’t protect us- we’re in the larger vehicle. Hopefully the criticism will lead to a better driver. (Don’t worry, my dad also made sure I turned off my beams well before they would blind or annoy others)

Antagonist 9:41 pm 05 Sep 12

rhino said :

What would it matter if his wheels were larger? Having that extra grip would somehow be a bad thing?

That might be true in dry weather, but the opposite is true in wet weather. In wet weather the water has to travel further to get out from under the tyre, which makes the car more prone to aquaplaning.

G.R.R 8:04 pm 05 Sep 12

c_c said :

Solidarity said :

…I don’t buy things unless I understand them, so having tinted windows of my vehicle, I know exactly how it works.

Grocery shopping with you must be a blast!

bundah 7:14 pm 05 Sep 12

johnboy said :

Yes voytek. Everyone commenting hear drives in exactly the same way. You’ve cracked the code!

Hear hear JB!

HenryBG 6:56 pm 05 Sep 12

rhino said :

I also disagree with the view that illegal is somehow automatically immoral, especially when it comes to parking or car enhancements.

Automatically agreeing with the law without applying your own rationalisation to it is definitely not a good thing in my view. This is what many of the nazis did as they were just following the laws and leadership of their country. Others thought independently and realised what was happening was wrong. So when evaluating someone’s parking or modifications, you really should think about what the benefits and disadvantages are and if it is negatively affecting anyone else. The fact that it’s illegal doesn’t mean much. It was illegal for women to vote not that long ago, was it immoral for women to want to?

Good point, but we need a well-regulated society for two reasons:
– selfish pricks do whatever they want unless somebody forces them to do the right thing
– we are not allowed assault rifles to keep our neighbours polite, clean, and respectful of each other

voytek3 6:48 pm 05 Sep 12

I love this. A bunch of Canberra narrow minds thinking they’re funny talking about some moron kids bad parking. The Canberra irony – they get upset because its so blatantly wrong all the while probably sit in the right lane every time they “drive”. You people are beyond a joke.

    johnboy 6:51 pm 05 Sep 12

    Yes voytek. Everyone commenting here drives in exactly the same way. You’ve cracked the code!

jayskette 4:55 pm 05 Sep 12

One of the earlier comments reminded me of when drivers keep one of their fine envelopes and keep it there for next time they park illegally so that the inspectors think they have already issued fines… great trick

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