29 October 2014

Poor planning shows Canberra cyclists in a selfish light

| JulianW
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Go for a drive any Saturday or Sunday through Uriarra crossing to the wonderful natural bush areas of the Brindabella Mountains (that I believe help give Canberra it’s iconic bush status), and you will quickly realise you need to look out for not only wildlife but road cyclists who are also out enjoying this scenic area. But last Sunday an extremely poor look was given to the (in the main) courteous riders who for everyone’s safety will pull back from two or three abreast riding, to single file when a vehicle approaches.

As shown in the video below this event left me scratching my head and asking the following questions:

  1. if you won’t ride single file and plan to utilise one lane (of a single lane each way country road) why are you not required to close one lane and run a stop/go like is done for road works to ensure there is not a head on accident with the remaining road users?
  2. why is it not mandatory that cyclists have third party insurance?
  3. did this event have a 20mill public liability cover like you would need to hold an event in Kowen Forrest?
  4. did this event have to submit some sort of safety/other road users plan with a relevant government authority and if so who approved it as shown I believe it was good luck rather than good management that an accident didn’t happen.
  5. will any cycling body, the head of TAMS or an elected member of our local assembly care or even respond to these questions? Perhaps a police investigation into these road users will get some action!

For what it’s worth I hope someone thinks to put in place an education program or restrictions for clubs/events/participants who want to use public roads before someone is killed!

Some common sense needs to be applied in these events to avoid the whole riding community being given this poor selfish look on our roads.

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Does it really matter? As there are new laws for cyclists, they can feel all warm & fuzzy thinking how they are legally entitled to share roads used by motor vehicles. That will be a big help when they are lying in a hospital bed all buggered up with months if not years of painful rehab in front of them.
You go for it guys, right or wrong don’t matter squat when your legs in traction, backs busted & you can’t wipe your bum cause both arms are in plaster

Simple rider courtesy and common sense should prevail. 2 abreast on straights, single file round corners. Everyone happy, everyone safe. Instead people focused on laws and rights. Illustrates one of the few detractions from the Canberran culture generally, i think.

Grrrr said :

Antagonist said :

Nobody has asked cyclists to stay off the roads.

Appears to be a couple of people above who have all-but said that.

A brief check shows that nobody has said it, nor have they ‘all-but said that’. Your comment speaks volumes about the typical entitled and indignant cyclist attitudes that are all too common in these threads.

Grrrr said :

Maybe you should try commuting by bike for a while to temper your ignorance. Sooner or later you will have some bogan scream pretty much the words “get off the road” at you despite your adhering to the road rules and showing general consideration to other users.

I am a cyclist. And a motorcyclist. And a motorist. Nice arm-waving to try and distract from the argument though.

Grrrr said :

But hey, you’ve whitewashed the original post as something moderate and instructive (despite containing nothing more instructive than “ride single file”) because it fits in with your rabid hatred of bike riders. I guess it’s too much to ask that you consider that 99% of cyclists are also experienced drivers and therefore much more likely to hold a more informed and balanced view than you?

Rabid hatred of cyclists? How did you get that from my post? Thank you for making my point at post #17 though: “… and the cyclists make out like the motorists are frothing at the mouth, breaking every road law in the book, and putting hundreds of people in danger at the same time. Well isn’t that a big surprise?!? This is why cyclists are (rightly) called out on their entitled and indignant attitudes.”

You are the quintessential example of the kind of indignant and entitled cyclist I was talking about. This is an excellent example of why cyclists and motorists do not seem to be able to share.

every event held on public roads needs to have the organisers submit risk management plans and the like.

as far as not knowing the event was on, there were ads on tv in the 2 weeks prior to the event as well as even on here.

http://the-riotact.com/fitzs-challenge-heroes-riding-for-a-reason/135871

Antagonist said :

Nobody has asked cyclists to stay off the roads.

Appears to be a couple of people above who have all-but said that.

Maybe you should try commuting by bike for a while to temper your ignorance. Sooner or later you will have some bogan scream pretty much the words “get off the road” at you despite your adhering to the road rules and showing general consideration to other users.

But hey, you’ve whitewashed the original post as something moderate and instructive (despite containing nothing more instructive than “ride single file”) because it fits in with your rabid hatred of bike riders. I guess it’s too much to ask that you consider that 99% of cyclists are also experienced drivers and therefore much more likely to hold a more informed and balanced view than you?

Somebody puts forward a good case for cyclists taking some responsibility for their own safety and minimise inconveniences to both parties, and even gives suggestions for how to go about it so that motorists and cyclists can benefit … and the cyclists make out like the motorists are frothing at the mouth, breaking every road law in the book, and putting hundreds of people in danger at the same time. Well isn’t that a big surprise?!? This is why cyclists are (rightly) called out on their entitled and indignant attitudes. Nobody has asked cyclists to stay off the roads. Is it really that hard for cyclists to take some proactive measures to ensure at organised events so the road can be *SHARED* safely and with minimum inconvenience to all?

rommeldog56 said :

dannybear said :

I drive around these roads a fair bit and when ever there’s been a cycling event there has always been plenty of signage as well as people controlling traffic and police motorcycle patrols, I think you’ll find that the fitz challenge does have public liability insurance.
If you read the road rules you’ll also find that cycling two abreast is perfectly legal.

Push bike riding 2+ abreast is legal ? Really ? Still, I’m not surprised I suppose.

Im a push bike rider too but keep off the roads for safety reasons (my own !) – even if it does take a while longer to get from A to B.

If 2+ abreast and it is an 80kph zone, + arn’t cars supposed to give a 1.5 metre gap to the closest rider ?

In any event, its safer just to give these suicide jockeys a wide birth – its just not worth it.

If this is Fitz’s Challenge, for the most serious riders it’s a race The writer didn’t supply any information to put this event in context. Other’s enter this event for the challenge. Imagine a race having to be held on a path! What a joke of a suggestion. Imagine the Tour de France being only held on paths. If this is Fitz’s Challenge the road should perhaps have been closed, keeping inconsiderate and dangerous drivers (travelling too fast and what appeared at times too close) such as JulianW off it for the time the race is held. But perhaps most other drivers are more considerate and this hasn’t been seen to be necessary.
I am wondering where the police were. I have been in large cycling events and there was always a police presence and I imagine in those events a driver such as JulianW would have been pulled over for a ‘chat’.

Grail said :

http://www.tams.act.gov.au/roads-transport/act_public_road_closures/listings/special_events

Poor planning shows self entitled car driver in a selfish, ranty light.

Why are you overtaking on double yellow lines? Why are you posting your law breaking to Youtube? Do you not know how to take your foot off the accelerator? Why is it the cyclists’ fault that you chose to break the law because of your inability to relax and slow down?

Your video showed plenty of opportunities for overtaking safely. There was no need for you to cross double lines, or use an intersection to travel on the painted island.

The only thing you needed was the ability to slow down, relax, and realise that it’s not going to be the end of the world if you get to your destination a few minutes late.

Thats right, don’t respect others right to use the road. Don’t try to facilitate that by ridng 2 or more abreast. Don’t acknowledge that other people may need to get places by a certain time. Just slow the world down to your pace – so u can do what u want to do. Bugger everyone else. This is just so common an attitude of minority groups nowdays (which really is what cycalists are).

Queen_of_the_Bun11:55 pm 30 Oct 14

Grail said :

http://www.tams.act.gov.au/roads-transport/act_public_road_closures/listings/special_events

Poor planning shows self entitled car driver in a selfish, ranty light.

Why are you overtaking on double yellow lines? Why are you posting your law breaking to Youtube? Do you not know how to take your foot off the accelerator? Why is it the cyclists’ fault that you chose to break the law because of your inability to relax and slow down?

Your video showed plenty of opportunities for overtaking safely. There was no need for you to cross double lines, or use an intersection to travel on the painted island.

The only thing you needed was the ability to slow down, relax, and realise that it’s not going to be the end of the world if you get to your destination a few minutes late.

The driver clearly knows there’s an event going on. Yet continues to drive at speed. While commentating on the poor planning of said event.
Interestingly, no traffic comes from the opposite direction, suggesting this is a safe event.
I am not a cyclist and I love a good anti-cyclist rant. But I think the driver is completely in the wrong in this case.

justin heywood8:24 pm 30 Oct 14

Postalgeek said :

As a cyclist it annoys me too to see cyclists riding two/three wide on single lane roads, because it’s discourteous….

Ditto. I don’t care if it’s legal to ride two or three abreast or not.

It’s entirely reasonable for cyclists to expect motorists to make allowances for them, but it is also reasonable to expect cyclists to not inconvenience other road users unnecessarily.

dannybear said :

I drive around these roads a fair bit and when ever there’s been a cycling event there has always been plenty of signage as well as people controlling traffic and police motorcycle patrols, I think you’ll find that the fitz challenge does have public liability insurance.
If you read the road rules you’ll also find that cycling two abreast is perfectly legal.

Push bike riding 2+ abreast is legal ? Really ? Still, I’m not surprised I suppose. Im a push bike rider too but keep off the roads for safety reasons (my own !) – even if it does take a while longer to get from A to B.

If 2+ abreast and it is an 80kph zone, + arn’t cars supposed to give a 1.5 metre gap to the closest rider ?

In any event, its safer just to give these suicide jockeys a wide birth – its just not worth it.

Is this Fitz’s Challenge?
Then what a rant about a well publicised event. I didn’t see any person on a bike breaking the law, which allows riding two abreast, but I did see a person driving a car breaking the law multiple times and advertising this by filming it. Also it appears the car passed too close several times. Either bad judgement on the part of the driver, or lack of skill. It’s a shame the road is not closed for this event to keep cars off it, particularly cars with drivers who don’t know or choose to ignore the road rules.

Rawhide Kid Part36:36 pm 30 Oct 14

I would hate to be on that road if a few Emergency Services vehicleswere heading to an incident in a rush. Could be very problematic.

wildturkeycanoe5:53 pm 30 Oct 14

Firstly, JulianW, I used to have to put up with this on a daily basis on Lady Denman drive until I started going to work earlier simply to avoid them.
I was going to start quoting people and posting suitable responses but the following sums it all up:-
Cyclists are a self-centered bunch who keep pushing themselves further into the line of fire with motor vehicles. In the past there wasn’t this kind of animosity between cyclists and drivers because cyclists had a sense of self-preservation which has now turned into a sense of entitlement. Instead of keeping clear of cars and sticking to the left, they now use up all the road and expect vehicles traveling at over twice their speed to slow to their own pace. If cyclists rode individually, there’d be no problem, but why is there this NEED to sit three abreast? Are they gas-bagging about the week’s office events, personal life stories or political issues? Ride in single file and be safe, instead of disrupting the lives of motorists, tourists and commuters.
In this video, there is no overtaking going on by the cyclists, the only one passing is the car. Do cyclists realise that the emissions of a vehicle increase substantially when forced to slow down, speed up, slow down, speed up etc? It doesn’t help the environment at all.
As for closing the road for the event or at least having stop/go signage – 9th November they are closing Parkes Way for the Tour De Femme. At least one cycling mob has the wit to do it sensibly.

It’s a paid event that requires participants to have insurance, use an Australian Design Standards approved helmet and a signed waiver.

I saw a guy taking 10 items through the 8 items or less register at the supermarket – but unfortunately I didn’t film it or complain about it online or suggest it is a police matter.

1) Riding 2-abreast is legal any day of the year, and more is permitted if overtaking (see Part 11 Division 4, of our road rules.) Also, if there’s any chance of you getting in a head-on when overtaking just because the vehicles you’re overtaking are bicycles .. well, you should probably re-think your roadcraft.
2) Because they inflict sod-all damage to third parties, especially in comparison to motor vehicles.
3,4,5) Yes, yes, who cares.

http://www.tams.act.gov.au/roads-transport/act_public_road_closures/listings/special_events

Poor planning shows self entitled car driver in a selfish, ranty light.

Why are you overtaking on double yellow lines? Why are you posting your law breaking to Youtube? Do you not know how to take your foot off the accelerator? Why is it the cyclists’ fault that you chose to break the law because of your inability to relax and slow down?

Your video showed plenty of opportunities for overtaking safely. There was no need for you to cross double lines, or use an intersection to travel on the painted island.

The only thing you needed was the ability to slow down, relax, and realise that it’s not going to be the end of the world if you get to your destination a few minutes late.

As a cyclist it annoys me too to see cyclists riding two/three wide on single lane roads, because it’s discourteous and because some muppet will start saying that all cyclists are like that, though you know they don’t make the same generalisations when they are delayed by drivers.

My triathlon days are over but when I trained, the squad rule was single file on single lane.

Driving out to Tidbinbilla on Sunday I encountered the Fitz riders. For the most part it was fine driving past them at 80kmh in the 100kmh zone. The time when it was a problem was when:

1 – riders didn’t ride single file when not passing

but also 2 – cars that would not pass on clear straight stretches, which, believe it or not, annoys cyclists as much as it annoys the drivers behind.

If a road isn’t closed for a race, I don’t think it’s asking much for race organisers to request people stay left for the safety of all road users.

I drive around these roads a fair bit and when ever there’s been a cycling event there has always been plenty of signage as well as people controlling traffic and police motorcycle patrols, I think you’ll find that the fitz challenge does have public liability insurance.
If you read the road rules you’ll also find that cycling two abreast is perfectly legal.

Bosworth said :

Fitz’s Challenge is a major contributor to the Kids’ Cancer Project.

They raise large amounts of money each year to fight cancer.

Cancer is one of the leading causes of deaths in Australia, and it is particularly difficult for kids with cancer.

JulianW, these sorts of attacks against such a benevolent organisation are highly inappropriate.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Outlaw motorcycle clubs also have rides and functions raising money for charity – so should we be all attending those functions too.

Just because you are raising money for charity does not give you the right to take over roads.

Bosworth said :

…You should be ashamed of yourself.

Bosworth – I’m not sure I follow your rant.

The issue is that there was limited signage for the event and that someone who was in the area was completely unaware of what was going on. Based on the video, I do believe it looks like a valid safety concern.

Perhaps next time they can have a few more signs up notifying people that there was an event going on.

I had a look at the fitzs website and they do great things. I don’t think the point of the article is to take away from this.

Fitz’s Challenge is a major contributor to the Kids’ Cancer Project.

They raise large amounts of money each year to fight cancer.

Cancer is one of the leading causes of deaths in Australia, and it is particularly difficult for kids with cancer.

JulianW, these sorts of attacks against such a benevolent organisation are highly inappropriate.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Felix the Cat11:16 am 30 Oct 14

Not sure what the problem is here except the OP motorist breaking the law by ovetaking over double lines.

OP is also showing his ignorance of the law by apparently not knowing that it is legal for cyclists to ride 2 abreast (or 3 if they are overtaking another pair of riders).

To answer the questions:

1. TAMS/event organisers would need to close the roads (from Stromlo to out past Thawrwa to Rendevous Creek including Corin Rd, Apollo Rd and Discovery Dr ) for most of the day, wouldn’t that be more inconvenient to motorists than leaving it open?

2. Not sure why OP thinks 3rd party insurance is needed, what are the cyclists going to damage? I believe event entry fee may provide some cover.

3. Not sure about PL insurance, I imagine they have, have you tried contacting the event organisers to ask?

4. TAMS would of approved the event

5. Probably, if you bothered to contact them instead of ranting on an unrelated internet forum about it.
.

golden_youth10:36 am 30 Oct 14

1. good question but probably better directed at the event organisers (http://www.fitzs.com.au)
2. maybe ask the government? it’s a question that is raised time and time again – even on this site.
3. yes
4. yes
5. why don’t you send the head of TAMS or an elected member of your local assembly directly so they can respond to your questions? Or are you just posting here to add to the tired old cyclist v motorist debate?

the head of TAMS

I think is also a cyclist – so no luck there.

They own the roads in Canberra as you can see by the stupid markings on roads and turning double laned roads into one lane for cars.

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