17 February 2009

Rape denied in the house of Hargreaves

| johnboy
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The Canberra Times has a charmless story (running without byline) on the defence of Kevin John Jones, 50, who faced the court yesterday charged with raping his 19 year old cellmate at the Belconnen Remand Centre.

    “According to the alleged victim’s evidence, when his advances were rejected, Jones forced the 19-year-old down on to the bed face-first, removed his track pants and underwear, and raped him.

    ”He was telling me not to scream, that if I screamed he would bash me,” the alleged offender said…

    ”He told me that if I didn’t say nothing, he’d buy me a pouch of White Ox (tobacco), but if I told, he’d kill me,” he said.

Jones is claiming the alleged victim initiated proceedings.

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VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy10:39 am 18 Feb 09

I’d have thought they would jam people anywhere they would fit.

You would hope that there is some sort of risk assessment before placing “at risk” prisoners in cells with others, eg young one with experienced older criminals who’ve done jail time before.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

C’mon guys, stop buggering the debate.

i think you did.

sod it.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy10:23 am 18 Feb 09

C’mon guys, stop buggering the debate.

If you mob can’t confine your discussion to the topic at hand I will happily put you in moderation. PB’s apologised move on.

Pommy bastard9:58 am 18 Feb 09

Oh, and I’ve already apologised to whoever Jim was taking offense on behalf of for any upset I may have caused them, so lets leave it there eh?

Pommy bastard9:57 am 18 Feb 09

dexi said :

“Wry observation” of a rape that trivialises rape. Thanks PB.

No Dexi, try again, the observation that a fictional character with super powers would be difficult to rape, does not “trivialise rape” in any way. The observation that taking ones trousers off before taking ones pants down is the normal practice does not trivialise rape in any way.

The Brad, I apologise for my Vitriol.

“Wry observation” of a rape that trivialises rape. Thanks PB.

Apologies to any one who I offended. I just call it as I see it.

The Brad its because you assumed you get to choose and that you get to control your response I called you a ####.

Sorry JB.

Thanks Granny. Love your work and hope is all well in your world.

I have missed you, Jim Jones.

This is ridiculous. They should be making the same attempts to keep the prisoners safe as they do with the staff and visitors.

Bum sex in prison

Who would have guessed

gun street girl7:11 pm 17 Feb 09

Lady_from_Holt said :

We never hear the gruesome details when women get raped. Why all of a sudden is it okay for these type of details to come out when the victim is a man?

Perhaps it’s a reflection of the quality and sensationalism of the newspapers I read, but I would disagree entirely. Most newspapers go into more than enough detail regarding female rape cases. Google “Anita Cobby” if you don’t believe me.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy6:40 pm 17 Feb 09

That would never happen in Canberra. We have Public Servants running the show.

Nasty stuff for sure, but this is what happens in gaol. By definition, you have people in there who don’t function well in the general community.

I don’t really have a strong opinion about this, suffice to say that when you throw a bunch of lawless humans together in a confined space, you are going to get some nasty results. All the moral outrage in the world won’t solve that.

Ever heard of the Stanford Prison Experiment? Sometimes the space is to blame for the lawlessness.

Pommy bastard4:35 pm 17 Feb 09

p1 said :

If it wasn’t a joke, what the hell was it?

At best a slightly surreal, wry observation. For it to have been a “rape joke” it would at least have had to have some sort of punchline.

But, on the off chance that whoever it was that Jim was taking offense on behalf this time, of was upset by it, I offer my apologies in any case.

johnboy said :

Secondly, the reason for reporting this is that it is both horrific and happening right here in Canberra literally a stone’s throw from the Belconnen Mall.

If you find that distasteful I humbly suggest you should consider doing something to prevent the actions, rather than the reporting on them.

Finally, for mine, I doubt Clea Rose would be happy that someone was being allegedly raped in her name.

agreed JB. regardless of what the remanded felon did, it is not the right of another felon to abuse them. that should have been noted by the centre when putting the two men in the same cell. If the 50yo has had a history of this kind of behaviour, for all we know it is why they are in there in the first place, (I don’t know why he is there, just surmising) why put him in with a younger man, probably weaker in stature than him?

maybe the ACT judiciary needs to find out why the new gaol isn’t open, and take the act govt to task about getting it open quickly? at least then there would be a cell per inmate, not two per cell.

starting to get a bit annoyed at the time it has taken to construct the gaol, it looks like it is nearly finished, when will they allow inmates in?

Special G – fair enough – I now understand the point you say you were trying to get accross. I first thought your post implied that we would somehow not be outraged by rape if it was the driver of the Clea Rose incident, which offended as sexual assault is never justified or ok.

Special G said :

Ms Rose’s killer was simply an example who might be about that age now. Think of the paedolphile threads etc where calls for people to be locked up with bubba are a regular thing.

FWIW, only one of the passengers would be 19 today, and he got a two-year good behaviour bond on 10 March 2006. The driver was 13 at the time, and that was 3 years ago.

So, this is someone else.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy3:27 pm 17 Feb 09

It’s an interesting argument about whether we take away someone’s ability to protect themself when we lock them up. We need to be careful, since completely isolating people is quite detrimental to their mental health.

uh, the bit about Superman and his underwear and him not smoking…

Yeah, I thought that was a joke. I even found it funny, in a very dry sarcasm, slightly non pc kinda way.

If it wasn’t a joke, what the hell was it?

Ms Rose’s killer was simply an example who might be about that age now. Think of the paedolphile threads etc where calls for people to be locked up with bubba are a regular thing.

uh, the bit about Superman and his underwear and him not smoking…

Pommy bastard2:59 pm 17 Feb 09

Jim Jones said :

Ah, rape jokes. Classy!

Oh dear, still having comprehesion problems then Jim? Please explain where there was a “rape joke” in my post?

Firstly Dexi, any more abuse of others and you will be in moderation, you’ve had far too many warnings.

Secondly, the reason for reporting this is that it is both horrific and happening right here in Canberra literally a stone’s throw from the Belconnen Mall.

If you find that distasteful I humbly suggest you should consider doing something to prevent the actions, rather than the reporting on them.

Finally, for mine, I doubt Clea Rose would be happy that someone was being allegedly raped in her name.

Pommy bastard said :

Lady_from_Holt said :

telling people that the man’s tracksuit pants were taken off before his undies.

It would be a bit difficult to do it the other way about. Unless it was superman, but then it would be harder to rape superman in the first place. Oh, and superman doesn’t smoke.

Ah, rape jokes. Classy!

Pommy bastard2:40 pm 17 Feb 09

Agreed Caf.

Deadmandrinking2:39 pm 17 Feb 09

Good point Caf.

VY, I’d add to that that when we lock someone up and therefore take away their much of their ability to protect themselves, we take the responsibility to protect them upon ourselves.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy2:22 pm 17 Feb 09

Nasty stuff for sure, but this is what happens in gaol. By definition, you have people in there who don’t function well in the general community.

I don’t really have a strong opinion about this, suffice to say that when you throw a bunch of lawless humans together in a confined space, you are going to get some nasty results. All the moral outrage in the world won’t solve that.

Pommy bastard2:21 pm 17 Feb 09

Dexi’s lost the plot again.

dexi said :

“level of debate.”

That would be making a superman reference in relation to a rape and “The Brad” being given a choices in rape.

Go on take the risk.

Dexi,

If you were referring to me misreading that the choices were presented during the act, not before, I fail to see how I am a “twat” for making a simple error.

Unless you misread which risk I would take? Being bashing, not being raped.

Your vitriol was a bit over the top.

So people have called for a 50 year old to sodomise a nineteen year old, as an act of what……………?

Deadmandrinking2:05 pm 17 Feb 09

“Change the wishings of several posters” easily sounds like you mean those who express disgust in this post.

You might have done better with “make some of our more punishment-obsessed posters rethink their contributions to earlier threads?” or something, don’t you reckon?

I’m still skeptical anyhow.

Deadmandrinking2:01 pm 17 Feb 09

I think considering your record of calling for similar things, you would have done well to better clarify your position.

PB got it right. Because you know me so well DMD…

There have been plenty calls over the years of this sort of thing for crooks from plenty of people. Now that it happens and is reported on everyone is outraged.

Deadmandrinking1:48 pm 17 Feb 09

Pommy bastard said :

It’s a point, if “several posters” here had been calling for brutal punishment for the; “kid who killed Ms Rose in the bus interchange a couple of years back”, then in the light of this rape, how would they feel if this was the kid? That he deserved the rape?

I was not party to the “Mrs Rose” debate, so I do not know what was called for.

You don’t know special G. I doubt he was putting it in that light.

Good point Kramer

You go to prison as punishment, not for punishment. These days the latter is far too common – and IMHO the scariest thing about our justice system.

Pommy bastard1:40 pm 17 Feb 09

It’s a point, if “several posters” here had been calling for brutal punishment for the; “kid who killed Ms Rose in the bus interchange a couple of years back”, then in the light of this rape, how would they feel if this was the kid? That he deserved the rape?

I was not party to the “Mrs Rose” debate, so I do not know what was called for.

Deadmandrinking1:36 pm 17 Feb 09

Certainly didn’t clarify it. It sounds disgusting.

Pommy bastard1:35 pm 17 Feb 09

dexi said :

“level of debate.”

That would be making a superman reference in relation to a rape and “The Brad” being given a choices in rape.

Go on take the risk.

The Brad’s pont was a good one.

My point was not about the rape, but about someones trousers being taken off before their pants, which is of necessity a given.

Your point was what exactly?

You really cannot deal with the fact that not everyone agrees with you, can you Dexi? maybe this really isn’t a good place for you to be.

Pommy bastard1:32 pm 17 Feb 09

Deadmandrinking said :

Special G said :

Maybe it was the kid who killed Ms Rose in the bus interchange a couple of years back. Does that change the wishings of several posters?

So you think sexual abuse is a justifiable punishment? You disgust me. You should be in the remand centre.

DMD, I think Special G was highlighting what has been said about priosoners here before, not stating a position.

“level of debate.”

That would be making a superman reference in relation to a rape and “The Brad” being given a choices in rape.

Go on take the risk.

Deadmandrinking1:27 pm 17 Feb 09

Special G said :

Maybe it was the kid who killed Ms Rose in the bus interchange a couple of years back. Does that change the wishings of several posters?

So you think sexual abuse is a justifiable punishment? You disgust me. You should be in the remand centre.

Pommy bastard1:26 pm 17 Feb 09

dexi said :

You are a twat Brad. Shall I spell………… T

W

A

T

Nice to see Dexi is keeping up his/her normal level of debate.

Special G – if you are implying what I think you are, then that is very warped.

dexi said :

You are a twat Brad. Shall I spell………… T

W

A

T

And it’s The Brad. Oh yeah.

Trev Fincham1:11 pm 17 Feb 09

What was the point of this article? Seriously.

Some scum bag did something to another scum bag, and no scum bag did anything about it?

How interesting

dexi said :

You are a twat Brad. Shall I spell………… T

W

A

T

o…..k….. A tad abusive for no reason.

The Brad said :

Given the 2 choices (bashing or raping), I’d take the bashing. ok, the victim changes bashing to killing, but again, given the threats, I’d take the risk, and try to defend myself, or have myself protected, if possible.

Reason – I wouldn’t want the risk of aids.

I think the choice was get raped, stay quiet and get tobacco, or get raped, speak up, and get killed.

Both options involve rape.

You are a twat Brad. Shall I spell………… T W A T

Given the 2 choices (bashing or raping), I’d take the bashing. ok, the victim changes bashing to killing, but again, given the threats, I’d take the risk, and try to defend myself, or have myself protected, if possible.

Reason – I wouldn’t want the risk of aids.

Maybe it was the kid who killed Ms Rose in the bus interchange a couple of years back. Does that change the wishings of several posters?

justbands said :

> What on earth is “bad taste” about alerting people to a complete failure in the justice system.

It think it’s the graphic descriptions people are objecting to…the “forced the 19-year-old down on to the bed face-first, removed his track pants and underwear, and raped him” bit.

Yes the pain at having heard that description must far outweigh actually being forced down onto a bed face first, having your clothing removed, and being raped.

If people are too weak to confront the horrors of our world, then let them look away. May history never forget that they could not be counted on to stand for justice.

Granny said :

I see the issue as more that the incident happened than that it was reported.

Well how would you – and the rest of the community – know the incident happened if it wasn’t reported by the media? Unless you make a habit of sitting in on trials or trawling through court judgments you would never find out about these things.

Pommy bastard12:30 pm 17 Feb 09

Lady_from_Holt said :

telling people that the man’s tracksuit pants were taken off before his undies.

It would be a bit difficult to do it the other way about. Unless it was superman, but then it would be harder to rape superman in the first place. Oh, and superman doesn’t smoke.

> What on earth is “bad taste” about alerting people to a complete failure in the justice system.

It think it’s the graphic descriptions people are objecting to…the “forced the 19-year-old down on to the bed face-first, removed his track pants and underwear, and raped him” bit.

What on earth is “bad taste” about alerting people to a complete failure in the justice system.

This alleged offence occurred to someone on remand – not convicted of any crime.

I agree, PBO. I didn’t enjoy reading the details of a little girl thrown off a bridge either, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t report on it. Soon they won’t be able to report on anything. I think, if anything, it gives people some empathy for the victim and makes them less of a nameless statistic.

Lady_from_Holt said :

We never hear the gruesome details when women get raped. Why all of a sudden is it okay for these type of details to come out when the victim is a man? I think this article is in very poor taste.

Read a different thread then, Nuff said.

It’s certainly confronting

Lady_from_Holt said :

We never hear the gruesome details when women get raped. Why all of a sudden is it okay for these type of details to come out when the victim is a man? I think this article is in very poor taste.

I’m sorry that you have been temporarily ripped from the pretend world that you live in.

I see the issue as more that the incident happened than that it was reported.

typical Canberra Times garbage – worst newspaper in Australia

Lady_from_Holt11:16 am 17 Feb 09

Whatsup said :

When rape is more openly discussed it may make it safer for the victims come forward because the community won’t see their experience as an isolated incident.

I completely agree. But I think there is a difference in informing the public about attacks and how/where they happen to ensure future victims don’t feel this way, and telling people that the man’s tracksuit pants were taken off before his undies. I also don’t believe that any victim would appreciate this type of detail being out in the media. I know if it was me, I certainly wouldn’t.

When rape is more openly discussed it may make it safer for the victims come forward because the community won’t see their experience as an isolated incident.

This is also a valid point, although I go by my first comment, that maybe this report was unnecessarily detailed. Or, since I am a male, perhaps I find this more confronting due to the specific case. I don’t know.

I think this article is in very poor taste.

I have to agree. Considering the circumstances of this alleged crime, the details in the report do nothing to inform the public of risks or anything like that. Unnecessary.

Lady from Holt @ #2. I’ve heard the details of women being raped plenty of times in the media. Male rape is often a more taboo subject and less often discussed.

When rape is more openly discussed it may make it safer for the victims come forward because the community won’t see their experience as an isolated incident.

Lady_from_Holt10:36 am 17 Feb 09

We never hear the gruesome details when women get raped. Why all of a sudden is it okay for these type of details to come out when the victim is a man? I think this article is in very poor taste.

I guess he’s not going to get the White Ox now.

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