19 April 2016

Remembrance Day – Remember who to blame!

| John Hargreaves
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Each ANZAC Day and Remembrance Day, I, like so many others, pay my heartfelt respect to the fallen and to the soldiers who survived. We think of their families and we are sad.

We are sad because the loss of life is usually futile. The lives of our soldiers, naval personnel and air force members have been lost in wars light years away, in defence of a policy which is at times incomprehensive.

I don’t buy the forward defence theory. I did in 1969 when told about the Red Peril coming down the Indo-China Peninsular. I did when I volunteered to do two years National Service because my number didn’t come up. I did when I knew that there was a good chance I would go to Vietnam and be asked to kill people.

I was fooled like so many others.

The bit that got my goat lately was John Howard at the Remembrance Day ceremony. He said: “let us remember that [our servicemen and women] stand on the shoulders of their Anzac forebears and they carry in their mission the same values of this country as did their forebears.”

Yeah? What values were those precisely?

In 1914, Australia was 13 years old. The old colonial mentality had not been replaced with any sense of oneness as a nation. We were still British! They sent our soldiers to fight the British War, under British commanders in British determined battlegrounds turned into mass graves!

Where was any threat to Australia which required that immense loss of life? Nowhere!

The blokes who died at Gallipoli didn’t die for Australia. They died for Britain. That they died at all is a crime. Brave they were, heroes they were, unnecessary victims of a polity of the time they were!

So, fast forward to the Middle East conflicts of recent times and the current War. The same John Howard sent our guys off to the Middle East to fix that “weapons of mass destruction” problem. Along with Blair and Bush, he should face a war crimes tribunal.

There were no weapons of mass destruction (and they knew it), there was no threat to Australia (and we all know it) and we saw our kids killed. For what?

Tony Abbott has done it again. He has started the Vietnam process all over again.

The process for Vietnam was to send advisors (the AATTV) in to “assist and train” the good guys to fight the bad guys. Then we sent in more SAS troops. Then we sent in battalions. Then we started the body count.

For what? Where was the threat to Australia before Mr Abbott aligned himself with the US? We were not in the frame. We were too small to worry about. Not now we ain’t!

In case people accuse me of being unpatriotic, I contend that when a real time threat to Australia is present, no-one here will baulk at doing his or her bit. But I, like so many others, am sick of seeing our kids killed in wars which represent no threat to our home soil, which have nothing to do with us, nothing for us to gain, and at the end of the day actually achieved nothing positive for the people there.

What was gained in WWI? It was an armistice? Political borders are still contested today and the result spawned the Second World War.

The Korean War had nothing to do with us, is not over either (again an armistice) and is a hotbed of conflict.
Vietnam was a disaster! And again, none of our business.

Afghanistan and Iraq were issues of our own making and we are making it worse.

The Middle East is a world away. It is horrible for those there. But why do we have to be deputy sheriffs? Where is the South American contingent? Where is the African contingent? Where is Asian contingent? Where is the eastern European contingent?

As we often say when we face adversity? Why me? Indeed, why us? And on top of that, we send the asylum seekers from that very region on to an unknown fate in a hostile country. We helped create the need for asylum then we turn out backs.

Good on you, Mr Abbott. Just like Menzies and Howard, you perpetuate the myth that we need to sacrifice our young for the good of what? The world? Democracy? Freedom?

Yeah right!

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2604 said :

Like many on the left, you seem to think that peace is always the best strategy. “Peace” really just means acceptance of the status quo. That’s only an acceptable plan of action when the status quo is acceptable. What’s going on in Syria and Iraq – beheadings, crucifixions, persecution of minorities, kidnapping and murder of western journalists and aid workers – is most definitely not acceptable to me, nor to most Australians. Military action is never desirable, but in this case is the lesser of two evils. The strategy being followed in Iraq and Syria – drone strikes and small-scale ground operations in conjunction with local armies – is absolutely correct.

Historically, the Anglophone countries – the US, UK, Canada, Australia and NZ – have always helped each other in times of conflict. That is nothing to be ashamed of. On the contrary, it shows backbone and reflects well on the national character of each nation. It stands in stark contrast to the unprincipled and opportunistic positions taken by other supposed major powers like France, which aggressively protect their own economic interests but otherwise pursue policies of isolationism.

Your chronology skipped World War 2 – you know, that minor series of events which would inevitably have involved a Japanese invasion of Australia, had the Americans not intervened to save us?

The “South American contingent”? The “African contingent”? With rare exceptions, those continents are economic and political basket-cases. The idea that we should only take action if banana republics and impoverished third-world nations are doing so is ludicrous and not befitting of a wealthy, advanced country like Australia.

Incidentally, I note that your article featured strong criticism of Tony Abbott, but no criticism of Barack Obama, who is pursuing the same military strategy. Is that because Obama is black, and you’re afraid to criticise a black man?

Obama is the pin up boy (is that politically correct?) of the Australian lefties. He is more popular in countries outside America.
At the weekend’s G20 talkfest, Obama chose to talk about future fantasies (abatement of carbon emissions thought to cause climate change) rather than the real problem of global Islamic terrorism.
John is yet to present his comments on the G20.

Like many on the left, you seem to think that peace is always the best strategy. “Peace” really just means acceptance of the status quo. That’s only an acceptable plan of action when the status quo is acceptable. What’s going on in Syria and Iraq – beheadings, crucifixions, persecution of minorities, kidnapping and murder of western journalists and aid workers – is most definitely not acceptable to me, nor to most Australians. Military action is never desirable, but in this case is the lesser of two evils. The strategy being followed in Iraq and Syria – drone strikes and small-scale ground operations in conjunction with local armies – is absolutely correct.

Historically, the Anglophone countries – the US, UK, Canada, Australia and NZ – have always helped each other in times of conflict. That is nothing to be ashamed of. On the contrary, it shows backbone and reflects well on the national character of each nation. It stands in stark contrast to the unprincipled and opportunistic positions taken by other supposed major powers like France, which aggressively protect their own economic interests but otherwise pursue policies of isolationism.

Your chronology skipped World War 2 – you know, that minor series of events which would inevitably have involved a Japanese invasion of Australia, had the Americans not intervened to save us?

The “South American contingent”? The “African contingent”? With rare exceptions, those continents are economic and political basket-cases. The idea that we should only take action if banana republics and impoverished third-world nations are doing so is ludicrous and not befitting of a wealthy, advanced country like Australia.

Incidentally, I note that your article featured strong criticism of Tony Abbott, but no criticism of Barack Obama, who is pursuing the same military strategy. Is that because Obama is black, and you’re afraid to criticise a black man?

dungfungus said :

Look over there, is that a unicorn?

Nah it is a flock of blind and dumb sheep that will believe what ever they are told. Never mind the inconvenient truth of course.

justin heywood9:44 pm 18 Nov 14

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

Just for the record though, we have been involved in the following wars since federation: WWI, WWII, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, Gulf Wars One and Two, Iraq and Afghanistan and now here we go again.

A Labor PM was only one of those PMs who sent troops overseas. by my quick reckoning it is 8 to 1.
Nuff said! Don’t blame me, I voted Labor!

I usually let your laughably one-eyed versions of events slide, but in this case I can’t work out if you’re being disingenuous or you really don’t know the facts:

WW1. An election was in progress at the outbreak of war. Labor won. Billy Hughes (Labor PM) was so enthusiastic about the war he wrecked his reputation trying to have conscription introduced.

WW2. Menzies was in power, but the main difference between Menzies and Labor’s position was not on our involvement, but on where the troops should be sent, Europe or the Pacific. Labor’s John Curtin became PM in 1941. He introduced conscription at about the time the Japanese started dropping bombs on us.

Malaya: You seem to have forgotten Malaya

Korea: Menzies again in power. The Labor Party fully supported Australia’a involvement in Korea

Vietnam: Our involvement opposed by the Labor Party

First Gulf War: Hawke (Labor) sent ships and troops to Iraq.

Second Gulf War: Howard (Liberal) sent ships and troops to Iraq

Third Gulf War? Abbott in power. Support for Australia’s mission from both Labor and Liberal parties.

Thus by my reckoning there have only been two occasions when Labor has opposed our participation in a conflict (Vietnam and the second Iraq war). In fact Labor have actively supported our participation almost every time they happened to be in power – Labor Prime Ministers even led the charge for conscription on two occasions.

Your claim that ‘by my quick reckoning it is 8 [Libs] to 1 [Labor]. Nuff said!’ is a blatant misrepresentation of the truth.

You say you have a degree in Defence Studies (or something similar), so you either know what you said isn’t correct or your studies were remarkably sketchy. Perhaps you referenced Michael Crichton novels in your essays? How did that go?

Only a fool rushes off to war. But it appears that many times people from all sides of politics have made the decision that we should fight for a cause beyond our shores. Many fine young men died as a result. Remembrance Day is a day set aside to remember them, not to use the day (and a bit of distorted history) to score political points.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

justin heywood said :

Wow John. You throw out a Gish Gallop style argument, demonstrating a high school understanding of all the complexities of 20th Century history (apparently it was all the Liberal’s fault).

Then, as if further evidence of the shallowness of your thinking was needed, you trot out some airport novel as supporting evidence.

You seem to have drank the Labor party Kool-Aid circa 1970 and not to have had an original thought since.

I bow to your giant intellect and constructive and thoughtful contributions. for your info, in 1970, I was wearing Army greens. I joined the Labor Party in 1988.

John, if you ever write your biography (God help us) you could call it “From Fighting in Army Greens to Surrendering to Canberra Greens”.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA12:02 pm 18 Nov 14

nazasaurus said :

I agree with a lot of what you say John. Interestingly the comments here prove yet again that any discussion of our military involvement cannot be discussed rationally and any disagreement with the party line (labor or lib) is seen an being un Australian or unpatriotic or lefty or communist or tree hugger or whatever the insult of the day is. These sort of discussions are had in Europe and even in Britain but cannot be had in Australia so lets just blindly follow what the politicians here tell us which is mostly to blindly follow what the politicians in the US dictate who in turn do as their lobbyists want.

Such truth.

JC said :

dungfungus said :

The jihadist that stabbed the Melbourne coppers had an ISIS banner not a Melbourne Storm jumper.
What about the two attacks in Canada; almost daily attacks in Israel? These are direct responses from the ISIS leaders for followers to attack infidel Westerners (that’s you and I incidentally).
Why are you looking for the fifth leg on the cat?

No the crazy person who stabbed the copper had ISIS banner. Believing in something is one thing, being a member and carrying out a terrorist attack is another thing altogether. As I said if the person had a Raiders (or storm flag) would you be blaming the footy team? No. So what is the difference?

As for Israel, I never realised it was a western country. Blow me down. But yeah terrorism is rife there and has been going on for years and didn’t realise that ISIS was in Israel, I thought that was Hamas. Of course the terrorism isn’t one way though, it is very much two way, Hamas V’s the Israel State, so not sure what relevance this has to the discussion at hand.

As for me looking for a 5th leg on a cat, one could ask why you are fighting shadows?

Now getting back on topic (a little anyway) can anyone tell me why the Pom’s don’t do their remembrance on remembrance day unless that day falls on a Sunday? Instead they do their ceremonies etc on Remembrance Sunday, which is the 2nd Sunday in November.

Look over there, is that a unicorn?

John Hargreaves Ex MLA12:01 pm 18 Nov 14

justin heywood said :

Wow John. You throw out a Gish Gallop style argument, demonstrating a high school understanding of all the complexities of 20th Century history (apparently it was all the Liberal’s fault).

Then, as if further evidence of the shallowness of your thinking was needed, you trot out some airport novel as supporting evidence.

You seem to have drank the Labor party Kool-Aid circa 1970 and not to have had an original thought since.

I bow to your giant intellect and constructive and thoughtful contributions. for your info, in 1970, I was wearing Army greens. I joined the Labor Party in 1988.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA11:58 am 18 Nov 14

gizmo1 said :

Hang on…………… Aussie soldiers who have served and died were sent to war by politicians.

Pretty sure you were one of these bottom feeders

“Bottom feeders” – noice! Unnecessary insult. I was never a federal pollie and I guess to you my crime was to actually stand up and be counted. I did serve as an MLA and am proud of it. I was not one of those who just sit around and criticism from the anonymity of a keyboard.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA11:54 am 18 Nov 14

Ben_Dover said :

Revisionist lefty claptrap from Mr H.

articulate and elegant use of language.

dungfungus said :

The jihadist that stabbed the Melbourne coppers had an ISIS banner not a Melbourne Storm jumper.
What about the two attacks in Canada; almost daily attacks in Israel? These are direct responses from the ISIS leaders for followers to attack infidel Westerners (that’s you and I incidentally).
Why are you looking for the fifth leg on the cat?

No the crazy person who stabbed the copper had ISIS banner. Believing in something is one thing, being a member and carrying out a terrorist attack is another thing altogether. As I said if the person had a Raiders (or storm flag) would you be blaming the footy team? No. So what is the difference?

As for Israel, I never realised it was a western country. Blow me down. But yeah terrorism is rife there and has been going on for years and didn’t realise that ISIS was in Israel, I thought that was Hamas. Of course the terrorism isn’t one way though, it is very much two way, Hamas V’s the Israel State, so not sure what relevance this has to the discussion at hand.

As for me looking for a 5th leg on a cat, one could ask why you are fighting shadows?

Now getting back on topic (a little anyway) can anyone tell me why the Pom’s don’t do their remembrance on remembrance day unless that day falls on a Sunday? Instead they do their ceremonies etc on Remembrance Sunday, which is the 2nd Sunday in November.

JC said :

dungfungus said :

JC said :

neanderthalsis said :

John,the poor ABC reception in your ivory tower may have meant that the numerous terrorist attacks under the ISIS banner in western countries may have passed you by.

I must have missed these attacks in western countries. Care to set me right by providing a few links?

The two coppers that were stabbed in Melbourne?
Surely you are not seriously requiring links for that.

That wasn’t an ISIS attack. That was some messed up guy attacking alone. Massive difference. To call this an ISIS attack would be like calling someone who is a Canberra Raiders Support wearing a Raiders jumper a terror attack from the Raiders.

Besides even if it were an ISIS attack where are the NUMEROUS attacks that were referenced?

The jihadist that stabbed the Melbourne coppers had an ISIS banner not a Melbourne Storm jumper.
What about the two attacks in Canada; almost daily attacks in Israel? These are direct responses from the ISIS leaders for followers to attack infidel Westerners (that’s you and I incidentally).
Why are you looking for the fifth leg on the cat?

Canberroid said :

Masquara said :

Canberroid said :

The so called home grown terrorists (or is it still singular?) are no reason to send troops to the other side of the world. We’re doing far more damage to our troops than a mentally ill bloke with a knife ever could by sending them into a war so that those who don’t get shot come home with PTSD and mental issues of their own. That is on top of the damage it does to our back pockets, which I note is something you usually take quite seriously.

A “mentally ill bloke with a knife”? Not a mentally competent young ingrate who has been inculcated with Jihad by local imams and is actually bad, not mad?

Stabbing a couple of cops over religion isn’t something I’d call mentally competent. In any case we should treat them like any other criminals and criminal organisations that recruit the young and stupid. We should not spend billions bombing the other side of the world and creating legitimate reasons for people to hate us, and adding more names to the roster for Remembrance Day.

It wasn’t a matter of religion – the cops could have been Muslims for all the attacker knew and indeed ISIS are killing more Muslims than anyone else.
And Islam is an totalitarian ideology, not a religion.

farnarkler said :

John you’re touching on a very sensitive subject with this one. I doubt many of the men and women who’ve served in the armed forces have wanted to go overseas and kill people. They had a job to do and they did it as best they could. Forget the politics of why our troops were where they were and just acknowledge they did their jobs often in appalling conditions.

I think you’re asking way too much from John. Especially when there’s a cheap shot against the Liberals to be made. He has a one track mind and incapable of anything resembling an objective perspective.

John you’re touching on a very sensitive subject with this one. I doubt many of the men and women who’ve served in the armed forces have wanted to go overseas and kill people. They had a job to do and they did it as best they could. Forget the politics of why our troops were where they were and just acknowledge they did their jobs often in appalling conditions.

Masquara said :

Canberroid said :

The so called home grown terrorists (or is it still singular?) are no reason to send troops to the other side of the world. We’re doing far more damage to our troops than a mentally ill bloke with a knife ever could by sending them into a war so that those who don’t get shot come home with PTSD and mental issues of their own. That is on top of the damage it does to our back pockets, which I note is something you usually take quite seriously.

A “mentally ill bloke with a knife”? Not a mentally competent young ingrate who has been inculcated with Jihad by local imams and is actually bad, not mad?

Stabbing a couple of cops over religion isn’t something I’d call mentally competent. In any case we should treat them like any other criminals and criminal organisations that recruit the young and stupid. We should not spend billions bombing the other side of the world and creating legitimate reasons for people to hate us, and adding more names to the roster for Remembrance Day.

dungfungus said :

JC said :

neanderthalsis said :

John,the poor ABC reception in your ivory tower may have meant that the numerous terrorist attacks under the ISIS banner in western countries may have passed you by.

I must have missed these attacks in western countries. Care to set me right by providing a few links?

The two coppers that were stabbed in Melbourne?
Surely you are not seriously requiring links for that.

That wasn’t an ISIS attack. That was some messed up guy attacking alone. Massive difference. To call this an ISIS attack would be like calling someone who is a Canberra Raiders Support wearing a Raiders jumper a terror attack from the Raiders.

Besides even if it were an ISIS attack where are the NUMEROUS attacks that were referenced?

house_husband said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

It is interesting that I am attacked for daring to question the politicians who sent our young folks to war. it is so easy to label me with being anti-Liberal (which I am by the way, but this issue has nothing to do with it).

The vitriol used against me just because I was a pollie smacks of the type of hatred dungfungus speaks of. I have felt the hatred of anti-Labor people so often it fails to move me anymore. it is just pathetic.

If the issue has nothing to do with you being anti-Liberal then why make it so obvious in your argument?

Also you claim the hatred from anti-Labor is pathetic but you identify as anti-Liberal with obvious hatred for Abbott and Co. but this is somehow different?

I just watched the second episode of Bob Hawke’s story on the ALPBC.
That is where the hate is but some of them have a bit left over for the Libs.

house_husband8:23 pm 17 Nov 14

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

It is interesting that I am attacked for daring to question the politicians who sent our young folks to war. it is so easy to label me with being anti-Liberal (which I am by the way, but this issue has nothing to do with it).

The vitriol used against me just because I was a pollie smacks of the type of hatred dungfungus speaks of. I have felt the hatred of anti-Labor people so often it fails to move me anymore. it is just pathetic.

If the issue has nothing to do with you being anti-Liberal then why make it so obvious in your argument?

Also you claim the hatred from anti-Labor is pathetic but you identify as anti-Liberal with obvious hatred for Abbott and Co. but this is somehow different?

justin heywood6:55 pm 17 Nov 14

….. Interestingly the comments here prove yet again that any discussion of our military involvement cannot be discussed rationally and any disagreement with the party line (labor or lib) is seen an being un Australian or unpatriotic or lefty or communist or tree hugger or whatever the insult of the day is.

Hey, if you want to discuss the origins of WW2, go ahead and fill your boots on another thread – I’ll join in too. But I remind you of the title of this thread:

‘Remembrance Day – Remember who to blame’

Many thousands of fine young men were killed wearing the Australian uniform – most probably felt that what they were doing was worthwhile. This is a day set aside to remember them.

The OP is not having a ‘discussion’ about these deaths, he is saying that we should blame the Libs because ‘he voted Labor’ – a statement that both trivialises their deaths and uses it to score political points.

Canberroid said :

The so called home grown terrorists (or is it still singular?) are no reason to send troops to the other side of the world. We’re doing far more damage to our troops than a mentally ill bloke with a knife ever could by sending them into a war so that those who don’t get shot come home with PTSD and mental issues of their own. That is on top of the damage it does to our back pockets, which I note is something you usually take quite seriously.

A “mentally ill bloke with a knife”? Not a mentally competent young ingrate who has been inculcated with Jihad by local imams and is actually bad, not mad?

HiddenDragon6:27 pm 17 Nov 14

On the other hand….Obama’s less than subtle effort at UQ has probably done more than could be imagined to stem any tendency towards Australian mission creep in the campaign against ISIS (and there were, in fact, already public signs of caution in that regard).

Canberroid said :

dungfungus said :

Canberroid said :

dungfungus said :

JC said :

neanderthalsis said :

John,the poor ABC reception in your ivory tower may have meant that the numerous terrorist attacks under the ISIS banner in western countries may have passed you by.

I must have missed these attacks in western countries. Care to set me right by providing a few links?

The two coppers that were stabbed in Melbourne?
Surely you are not seriously requiring links for that.

That is a good reason to spend money locally on social and mental health services, not on a war in the middle east. Terrorists are the new Communists – an excuse for the government to use fear to wield power as the “protectors”, and the media to sensationalise the perceived threat to draw eyeballs. The real threats to our country are much more difficult to use for political point scoring.

“Terrorists are the new Communists”
Absolute rubbish!
I have a relative who is a communist and he doesn’t behead people or mutter about paradise and virgins while trying on his new suicide bomb vest.
These so called “home grown terrorists” have been raised in an environment to make them the way they are. The things they aspire to may be repugnant to us but to them it is normal behaviour.
The only way to change this is a bullet or if you want to waste money on mental health services for them then a frontal lobotomy may be an acceptable outcome.

I think you’re argument follows on quite nicely from mine. Communists aren’t really all that scary to our way of life, but we still went to war over it a couple of times because we were conditioned to fear them.

The so called home grown terrorists (or is it still singular?) are no reason to send troops to the other side of the world. We’re doing far more damage to our troops than a mentally ill bloke with a knife ever could by sending them into a war so that those who don’t get shot come home with PTSD and mental issues of their own. That is on top of the damage it does to our back pockets, which I note is something you usually take quite seriously.

The most terrifying thing about “terrorists” in Australia is the government using the concept to introduce new overreaching laws and win votes by playing on peoples’ fears rather than though competent governing. You sound quite scared of terrorists yourself when in reality you’re more likely to be hurt by a wonky vending machine.

When we have our own “9/11” I will re-visit this thread to see if:
1. You are still around
2. Have had second thoughts.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

…it is so easy to label me with being anti-Liberal (which I am by the way, but this issue has nothing to do with it).

If it has nothing to do with the issue, why are you the first person (being the OP) to be getting into the Liberal slander around Howard and Abbott? You telling us that politics has nothing to do with it is so hypocritical it’s not even funny anymore.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

Thank God for Mr Abbott, he’ll protect us from this scourge and the threat of nasty things happening to us! He won’t do anything which will make it worse for us, will he?

So tell me John, what would your little pal Shorten do if he were PM? I’d be keen to know!

Rollersk8r said :

justin heywood said :

Wow John. You throw out a Gish Gallop style argument, demonstrating a high school understanding of all the complexities of 20th Century history (apparently it was all the Liberal’s fault).

Then, as if further evidence of the shallowness of your thinking was needed, you trot out some airport novel as supporting evidence.

You seem to have drank the Labor party Kool-Aid circa 1970 and not to have had an original thought since.

This.

Plus the bit about creating asylum seekers is the icing on the cake: “Helped create the need for asylum”. Yes, because Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria have historically been such peaceful places!! And rounding the top 5 asylum seeking countries is Somalia and Sudan – please discuss how the Australian Liberals also caused conflict there.[/quot

While I don’t think this is a Labor or Liberal issue – it’s one of Western countries meddling in countries like Iraq and than casually stating that these places are just intrinsically violent and war- ravaged. Taking Iraq as an example – how was Iraq historically violent prior to 1980? people had infrastructure, relative safety and didn’t fear being blown up and beheaded. Sure Saddam was in charge and he was a brutal dictator who killed his political opponents, but im sure the average Iraqi would prefer those days to now… Any what did the West do at that time? instead of carefully applied sanctions they sold Saddam arms and chemical weapons to use on Kurds or Iranians – look up a smiling Donald Rumsfeld meeting Saddam during his reign… and speaking of Iran, do many people now that the CIA and British government overthrew a democratically elected secular government in 1953 because the leader of this government nationalised oil – this didn’t please the Brits who were getting most of the oil profits from Iran. They overthrew him , put in place a US puppet and 30 years later a revolution and crazy theocrats in charge.

Sorry for the rant but it amazing how little people know about their own governments involvement in destabilising and meddling in these countries – its just easier to paint the narrative that they are violent societies who are always unstable – without regard to our involvement in damaging their countries.

dungfungus said :

Canberroid said :

dungfungus said :

JC said :

neanderthalsis said :

John,the poor ABC reception in your ivory tower may have meant that the numerous terrorist attacks under the ISIS banner in western countries may have passed you by.

I must have missed these attacks in western countries. Care to set me right by providing a few links?

The two coppers that were stabbed in Melbourne?
Surely you are not seriously requiring links for that.

That is a good reason to spend money locally on social and mental health services, not on a war in the middle east. Terrorists are the new Communists – an excuse for the government to use fear to wield power as the “protectors”, and the media to sensationalise the perceived threat to draw eyeballs. The real threats to our country are much more difficult to use for political point scoring.

“Terrorists are the new Communists”
Absolute rubbish!
I have a relative who is a communist and he doesn’t behead people or mutter about paradise and virgins while trying on his new suicide bomb vest.
These so called “home grown terrorists” have been raised in an environment to make them the way they are. The things they aspire to may be repugnant to us but to them it is normal behaviour.
The only way to change this is a bullet or if you want to waste money on mental health services for them then a frontal lobotomy may be an acceptable outcome.

I think you’re argument follows on quite nicely from mine. Communists aren’t really all that scary to our way of life, but we still went to war over it a couple of times because we were conditioned to fear them.

The so called home grown terrorists (or is it still singular?) are no reason to send troops to the other side of the world. We’re doing far more damage to our troops than a mentally ill bloke with a knife ever could by sending them into a war so that those who don’t get shot come home with PTSD and mental issues of their own. That is on top of the damage it does to our back pockets, which I note is something you usually take quite seriously.

The most terrifying thing about “terrorists” in Australia is the government using the concept to introduce new overreaching laws and win votes by playing on peoples’ fears rather than though competent governing. You sound quite scared of terrorists yourself when in reality you’re more likely to be hurt by a wonky vending machine.

I agree with a lot of what you say John. Interestingly the comments here prove yet again that any discussion of our military involvement cannot be discussed rationally and any disagreement with the party line (labor or lib) is seen an being un Australian or unpatriotic or lefty or communist or tree hugger or whatever the insult of the day is. These sort of discussions are had in Europe and even in Britain but cannot be had in Australia so lets just blindly follow what the politicians here tell us which is mostly to blindly follow what the politicians in the US dictate who in turn do as their lobbyists want.

justin heywood said :

Wow John. You throw out a Gish Gallop style argument, demonstrating a high school understanding of all the complexities of 20th Century history (apparently it was all the Liberal’s fault).

Then, as if further evidence of the shallowness of your thinking was needed, you trot out some airport novel as supporting evidence.

You seem to have drank the Labor party Kool-Aid circa 1970 and not to have had an original thought since.

This.

Plus the bit about creating asylum seekers is the icing on the cake: “Helped create the need for asylum”. Yes, because Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria have historically been such peaceful places!! And rounding the top 5 asylum seeking countries is Somalia and Sudan – please discuss how the Australian Liberals also caused conflict there.

justin heywood3:45 pm 17 Nov 14

Wow John. You throw out a Gish Gallop style argument, demonstrating a high school understanding of all the complexities of 20th Century history (apparently it was all the Liberal’s fault).

Then, as if further evidence of the shallowness of your thinking was needed, you trot out some airport novel as supporting evidence.

You seem to have drank the Labor party Kool-Aid circa 1970 and not to have had an original thought since.

Hang on…………… Aussie soldiers who have served and died were sent to war by politicians.

Pretty sure you were one of these bottom feeders

John Hargreaves Ex MLA2:25 pm 17 Nov 14

It is interesting that I am attacked for daring to question the politicians who sent our young folks to war. it is so easy to label me with being anti-Liberal (which I am by the way, but this issue has nothing to do with it). Defending Australia’s involvement overseas ni the last 100 years is a revelation to me. I just don’t get it!

The vitriol used against me just because I was a pollie smacks of the type of hatred dungfungus speaks of. I have felt the hatred of anti-Labor people so often it fails to move me anymore. it is just pathetic.

Just for the record though, we have been involved in the following wars since federation: WWI, WWII, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, Gulf Wars One and Two, Iraq and Afghanistan and now here we go again.

A Labor PM was only one of those PMs who sent troops overseas. by my quick reckoning it is 8 to 1.
Nuff said! Don’t blame me, I voted Labor!

I invite people to read the theory of the “State of Fear” in the novel of the same name by Michael Crichton. Fictional setting around a profound theory. Canberroid got it right!

Thank God for Mr Abbott, he’ll protect us from this scourge and the threat of nasty things happening to us! He won’t do anything which will make it worse for us, will he?

ScienceRules said :

magiccar9 said :

John you should be ashamed to merge these topics – ala Lambie recently. Not to mention the disgusting title of the article.

Remembrance Day is a sacred day to remember those who have fallen, not to bang your own political agenda and opinion.

This response is exactly what is wrong with they way we remember the wars we have fought in. Any sort of critical commentary or questioning the endless and pointless bloodshed is swatted down as “disrespectful”.

I don’t think it is disrespectful to question why our young people and national treasury have been wasted in these futile and pointless conflicts. We send them into danger, destroy their bodies and minds and then all but ignore them when they return, probably because it might just make us question how easily we send our kids to fight at the behest of those more powerful than us.

The current manufactured nonsense in the middle east has only made us more vulnerable to terrorist attacks, not safer. It’s a complete fiction to say that our soldiers (or anyone elses for that matter) are “fighting for our freedoms”.

Given the history laid out in the original post and the venom addressed to John for even having the temerity to bring it up, I can’t see the body count dropping any time soon.

I’m not saying the issue shouldn’t be discussed, what I am saying is that Remembrance Day (or anything associated to it) is NOT the time to do it.

What John is doing here is even worse because (as others have pointed out) he merely uses this site to tout his own political agenda and spout off about his oppositions while trying to disguise it as a piece about ‘remembering’.

Canberroid said :

dungfungus said :

JC said :

neanderthalsis said :

John,the poor ABC reception in your ivory tower may have meant that the numerous terrorist attacks under the ISIS banner in western countries may have passed you by.

I must have missed these attacks in western countries. Care to set me right by providing a few links?

The two coppers that were stabbed in Melbourne?
Surely you are not seriously requiring links for that.

That is a good reason to spend money locally on social and mental health services, not on a war in the middle east. Terrorists are the new Communists – an excuse for the government to use fear to wield power as the “protectors”, and the media to sensationalise the perceived threat to draw eyeballs. The real threats to our country are much more difficult to use for political point scoring.

“Terrorists are the new Communists”
Absolute rubbish!
I have a relative who is a communist and he doesn’t behead people or mutter about paradise and virgins while trying on his new suicide bomb vest.
These so called “home grown terrorists” have been raised in an environment to make them the way they are. The things they aspire to may be repugnant to us but to them it is normal behaviour.
The only way to change this is a bullet or if you want to waste money on mental health services for them then a frontal lobotomy may be an acceptable outcome.

Simple.

Edmund Burke — ‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do
nothing.’

Irrespective of what our personal opinions are regarding why these wars / conflicts occurred and what was achieved, the fact of the matter is that Remembrance Day is set to remember those who lost their lives doing what was thought right at the time.

No matter what the circumstances that people are thrust into military conflict or under what guise, they deserve our respect for (if nothing else), putting their lives on the line.

Personally, I do not necessarily support any military action in recent history– and that is my choice, my personal opinion and one that I do not speak openly about with others out of respect to those who are currently serving– however, I will always support the brave personnel who deploy to areas that are in crisis– because I am respectful towards others choices and / or situations.

Conversely, John Hargreaves appears not to be either respectful of those who have served OR those who have lost loved ones due to conflict.
Shame. On. You.

dungfungus said :

JC said :

neanderthalsis said :

John,the poor ABC reception in your ivory tower may have meant that the numerous terrorist attacks under the ISIS banner in western countries may have passed you by.

I must have missed these attacks in western countries. Care to set me right by providing a few links?

The two coppers that were stabbed in Melbourne?
Surely you are not seriously requiring links for that.

That is a good reason to spend money locally on social and mental health services, not on a war in the middle east. Terrorists are the new Communists – an excuse for the government to use fear to wield power as the “protectors”, and the media to sensationalise the perceived threat to draw eyeballs. The real threats to our country are much more difficult to use for political point scoring.

JC said :

neanderthalsis said :

John,the poor ABC reception in your ivory tower may have meant that the numerous terrorist attacks under the ISIS banner in western countries may have passed you by.

I must have missed these attacks in western countries. Care to set me right by providing a few links?

The two coppers that were stabbed in Melbourne?
Surely you are not seriously requiring links for that.

ScienceRules11:40 am 17 Nov 14

magiccar9 said :

John you should be ashamed to merge these topics – ala Lambie recently. Not to mention the disgusting title of the article.

Remembrance Day is a sacred day to remember those who have fallen, not to bang your own political agenda and opinion.

This response is exactly what is wrong with they way we remember the wars we have fought in. Any sort of critical commentary or questioning the endless and pointless bloodshed is swatted down as “disrespectful”.

I don’t think it is disrespectful to question why our young people and national treasury have been wasted in these futile and pointless conflicts. We send them into danger, destroy their bodies and minds and then all but ignore them when they return, probably because it might just make us question how easily we send our kids to fight at the behest of those more powerful than us.

The current manufactured nonsense in the middle east has only made us more vulnerable to terrorist attacks, not safer. It’s a complete fiction to say that our soldiers (or anyone elses for that matter) are “fighting for our freedoms”.

Given the history laid out in the original post and the venom addressed to John for even having the temerity to bring it up, I can’t see the body count dropping any time soon.

neanderthalsis said :

John,the poor ABC reception in your ivory tower may have meant that the numerous terrorist attacks under the ISIS banner in western countries may have passed you by.

I must have missed these attacks in western countries. Care to set me right by providing a few links?

“Where was the threat to Australia before Mr Abbott aligned himself with the US?”

John, you really are living in la-la land.
The plots by Islamic jihadists in Australia to kill and maim defence personnel that were discovered and diffused by ASIO happened BEFORE Tony Abbott became PM.
Next thing you will be claiming that the WTC destroyed by Islamic jihadists (9/11) was situated in the Middle East or it didn’t happen at all.
You are wrong about asylum seekers as well.
Did you also forget to say “I feel ashamed to be an Australian?”
John, when are you going to learn that hating somebody takes twice as much energy as liking someone.

house_husband10:56 am 17 Nov 14

Why single out the Liberals for your vitriol? In recent years Labor has supported quit a few deployments including the current one against ISIS and Afghanistan.

Most of your posts contain similar cheap shots at the Liberals and it just smacks of petty bitterness. Collectively it appears you are taking some very serious subjects in vain merely as a means to exact political revenge against the Liberals.

Revisionist lefty claptrap from Mr H.

justin heywood10:25 am 17 Nov 14

And here’s me thinking that Remembrance Day was about remembering Australian serviceman who died.

But no, apparently it’s just another segue for John Hargreaves ex-MLA to launch into another tiresome spray against his political enemies.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA10:18 am 17 Nov 14

neanderthalsis said :

John,the poor ABC reception in your ivory tower may have meant that the numerous terrorist attacks under the ISIS banner in western countries may have passed you by. Victories and displays of strength by ISIS in the middle east translate into new recruits in Australia, Canada, Great Britain, the US… There is also the mass murder bordering on genocide being committed by ISIS against other Islamic sects, Christians and any one in their way as they advance through Syria and Iraq. I’m quite certain that you and your ilk would be hand wringing and saying something must be done to save the poor folk being slaughtered if we weren’t already over there.

War is bad, people die. But sometimes it is necessary.

I agree with much of what you say but wonder why we, so remotely removed from that theater, must be the deputy sheriff in this.

Articles in the media recently talked about this being a geopolitical a religious conflict. (My interpretation). It is also a regional one.

I don’t see regions closer, more at threat from ISIL, rushing in to help. What I do see is a Western Alliance involved. As I said, where is the African effort? Where is the Asian effort, Where is the South American effort?

If this ends up a global conflict out of a regional one,I know we have only ourselves to blame for meekly following the US, whose global interference has cost so many lives.

John you should be ashamed to merge these topics – ala Lambie recently. Not to mention the disgusting title of the article.

Remembrance Day is a sacred day to remember those who have fallen, not to bang your own political agenda and opinion.

neanderthalsis8:50 am 17 Nov 14

John,the poor ABC reception in your ivory tower may have meant that the numerous terrorist attacks under the ISIS banner in western countries may have passed you by. Victories and displays of strength by ISIS in the middle east translate into new recruits in Australia, Canada, Great Britain, the US… There is also the mass murder bordering on genocide being committed by ISIS against other Islamic sects, Christians and any one in their way as they advance through Syria and Iraq. I’m quite certain that you and your ilk would be hand wringing and saying something must be done to save the poor folk being slaughtered if we weren’t already over there.

War is bad, people die. But sometimes it is necessary.

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