24 February 2009

Revelations in the Lioulios suicide

| johnboy
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[First filed: February 23, 2009 @ 16:07]

There’s a short but extremely complicated story on the ABC site about the tragic death of DR. Tania Lioulios after she tried to kill herself in the back of a prison van last July.

    Dr Lioulios had complained to the Medical Board that her lover, psychiatrist Hugh Veness, illegally prescribed a narcotic to her.

    The Medical Board says its legislation prevents it from confirming a complaint has been made.

    Dr Lioulios’ husband Dimitris has tried to contact the Board about the case but has not received a response.

    “I’m still waiting for an answer, I’m still waiting to see what the Medical Board has done about this issue about the prescription of OxyContin by Dr Veness,” he said.

UPDATED: The SMH has picked up the story and obtained comment from Dr. Veness:

    Dr Hugh Veness, of Canberra, yesterday denied to the Herald that he had prescribed excessive quantities of the potentially addictive drug Oxycontin to his former lover, Tania Lioulios. He said Ms Lioulios, who died in police custody last year, had become “extremely disturbed” after he refused to marry her.

He has confirmed an investigation by the board. The article is well worth reading in full.

It’s also worth checking out Dr. Veness’s school re-union profile which is driving a lot of the news on this.

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Big ups to anotherone! Through your determination you have removed a predator, one obviously prone to repeat-offending, from the lives of many vulnerable people. Thank you.

To FedUp, perhaps you will refrain form such hasty and aggressive ‘defences’ in the future. Where there’s smoke, there is fire. Benefit of the doubt should always be afforded to alleged victims.

And to any predator onto whom vulnerable people put their trust:

We’ll get ya 😉

I have seen Dr Veness for many years. If it wasn’t for him I would be dead along time ago. I suggest you read ‘the crucible’ as it contains more of the truth.
This was a political witch hunt and I for one say that due to this miscourage of justice hope they reliese the blood they now wear on their hands.
Dr Veness NEVER presibed me anything he didn’t believe would help. He would always go through the pros and cons and for the weeks after I would have appointments to assess how I was doing.
Every GP and phyc I ever saw had nothing but glowing reports for Dr Veness.
And to ms ‘thanks for mucking up my recovery’ glad you rationalised your desire to have more control

This post is to thank the people that have contributed to the monster being suspended…”anotherone” you have found some justice…and have SAVED lives…God bless you…we all will be in court to watch his final downfall.

Those wronged, now is the time to report all his crimes to the police…doing so will protect more people.

Hello. Am very new here. But want to say in relation to the so called ‘doctor’, stay tuned. Im another one. And we go AMA hearing Monday it seems. And no I am not happy either..but at least Im alive. It’s my intention to make sure he never has the chance to do this to another woman ever again. I suffer a mental illness, went to him for help. I know there is a gag order on the media right now in relation to this matter involving me but as far as I know it ends the day of the hearing. Monday. It’s been one and a half years to get to this point.

“urwrong” and “Rochelle” do you really think you know Veness well?

Remember what Tania told the nurse about Veness?

“urwrong”, remember what Tania told you about Veness?

Remember what you know about Veness and have lied to police?

Veness will be brought to court, I can reasure you, his time will come.

I can reasure you as well that those who covered for Veness like you “urwrong” will be brought to court too.

You did not speak out and save Tania’s life…you not only lied you colaborated with Veness.

All who will not come out and tell the truth you can’t fool your mind on the EVIL you have commited on Tania.

Remember or not…………… YOU WILL ALL GO TO HELL.

Woody Mann-Caruso5:59 pm 06 May 10

Zombie thread alert!

How very sad for all concerned. I am so relieved that witches and the like are no longer burned at the stake. I was myself a patient of Dr Veness’ for approx 7 years and I have no hesitation in going into bat for him. I found him not only to be an excellent psychiatrist but also kind, patient and very down-to-earth. His ability to “hear” what I had to say was beyond reproach. I had experienced loss through suicide twice prior to visiting Dr Veness and the number has risen again. From personal experience I can say that it seems to be a natural progression to seek a scape goat because the loss associated with someone taking their own life is just too painful particularly when a satisfactory explaction is not available. I guess what I am trying to say is that someone has to be to blame! By the way what bearing does the number of marriages (Dr Veness’) have on the case? I know some, acturally quite a few, people who have been in mulitiple defacto relationships and have never been married. It seems to me that the age old steriotyping is alive and well along with one or more of the ‘isms’ so please just stop and think before you hang someone out to dry. Every single one of us is not without fault and please help us all if only the perfect/squeaky clean were allowed to work in the medical profession – we wouldn’t have any medical profession!!! Please try to be more kind and not so judgement.

I just read all of the posts relating to this matter. Let me tell you something, i was in the courts, heard all the evidence, also very good friends of both people. The newspapers and abc have exaggerated or made things up relating to this sad tragedy. I was the last person who talked on the phone to Tania, who cared about Tania before she passed.

Adele Houston5:56 pm 26 Mar 20

Hi unwrong. I know this case was put to bed long ago, but it is of great interest to me and I came to the party quite late on it.

If you ever receive this message I would appreciate you reaching out to me. I have questions about Tania and the Doctor.

Many thanks

Pommy bastard3:05 pm 25 Feb 09

+2

Treating doctors should not be boffing their clients, IMHO.

If he was doing the nasty with her, he should not have been prescribing anything, excessive or otherwise!

Falling spiders, wasp circuses – who hasn’t been taking their medication?

monomania said :

This whole situation should be picked up, turned upside down and shaken very hard to see how many spiders fall out.

couldn’t agree more monomania……needs to be shaken VERY hard out in the open.

This whole situation should be picked up, turned upside down and shaken very hard to see how many spiders fall out.

i’ve heard over the canberra grapevine that the good ole dr veness does have a certain reputation as an easy prescriber of oxy contin etc…
annoys me no end when people blame other’s mental health issues to get out of trouble…..if of course it is true

dexi said :

OxyContin

OxyContin is in a group of drugs called narcotic pain relievers. It is similar to morphine.

Sounds yummy.

monomania said :

“… they misbranded and misled physicians and the public ….”

What!!
Whopping big multinational drug companies caught lying and cheating??
Who would have thunk it?

The incredible part is the bit where they got caught ….

; )

Wiki suggests oxycotin is not only used to relieve pain it is often abused for its narcotic and euphoric effect. Rather than being an anti-depressant it is a depressant with a number harmful drug interactions.

It is addictive.

“Purdue Pharma and its top executives pleaded guilty to felony charges that they misbranded and misled physicians and the public by claiming OxyContin was less likely to be abused, less addictive, and less likely to cause withdrawal symptoms than other opiate drugs”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxycodone

Pommy bastard3:07 pm 24 Feb 09

SheepGroper said :

So – if a patient is prescribed a mind altering drug and sent home to see what happens, how would they know if they’re getting worse if they live in a one person household and don’t have someone they see often enough, and confide in, that is objective enough about how the treatment is going to provide feedback?

It depends on the circumstance. If a person is prescribed via a public system psychiatrist, then they will also get a case manager who may be able to visit frequently enough to monitor. Anti depressants are not like aspirin, where you take one, and an hour later the problem goes away. They take a while to build up in the system, normally a fortnight or more, to a therapeutic dose. This is monitored by the case manager, and side effects are looked out for.

If a person is prescribed them via a GP, however then it is the GP’s responsibility to monitor for side effects. Any GP worth their salt will ask for a consultant to prescribe if the case seems to warrant it.

Oh, excellent idea!!

; )

And how about a wasp circus? There’s a new take on an idea … has potential you must admit.

GB said :

Remains to be seen whether Veness was a further problem, or a solution. Things are rarely simple.

Well, I think we can pretty much rule the ‘solution’ option out.

Never fear Granny, I will train my countless swarms of Kambah-based European Wasps to protect my virtue.

Fly my pretties!

I don’t know about this drug, but I do know that many drugs are prescribed for different, apparently unrelated symptoms.

Eg Tryptanol, which is a tricyclic antidepressant, was (perhaps still is) prescribed for prostatitis, in the absence of any depressive illness. In the past, it was prescribed at quite high doses, and not tapered off. This process can trigger depression.

When you have acute depression it is very difficult to distinguish it from life actually sucking. And, to believe even trusted friends who say that is what is happening.

Kudos to Dr Lioulios for not trusting her own judgement in that situation. Remains to be seen whether Veness was a further problem, or a solution. Things are rarely simple.

That is quite a problem, poptop. I would recommend walking the dog in oldest tracksuit, curlers and preferably cold cream … just in case! And I’d give Ragless Circuit a good, wide berth too, I reckon.

: D

I used to work with, I presume, was one of his son’s. Nice dedicated worker who got screwed by the system at Defence, poor bastard (no pun intended). Reckoned his father was having legal problems with ex partners. Now I know why.

Whereas Granny would be completely right!

I just lurve living in Kambah . . .

Almost right, jessieduck!

*chuckle*

LOL

: D

… Um, is it Kambah?

OxyContin is called hillbilly herion right?

Guess where Dr Venness resides . . .

Hint: Not a million miles from Greg of Ragless Circuit.

SheepGroper said :

So – if a patient is prescribed a mind altering drug and sent home to see what happens, how would they know if they’re getting worse if they live in a one person household and don’t have someone they see often enough, and confide in, that is objective enough about how the treatment is going to provide feedback?

Which is why in an ideal world, drugs would be prescribed as part of a comprehensive wellness plan involving things like visits to a counsellor/psycologist and timely follow-up meetings with the doctor or psychiatrist prescribing the anti-depressants. Unfortunately this is not an ideal world.

It all seems terribly sad! You’d think if your lover was a psychiatrist they’d be useful for something … er, apart from the lurve!

Sheepgroper… They don’t know if they are getting worse. They are worse and being such have less control over what they know and how they act.

So – if a patient is prescribed a mind altering drug and sent home to see what happens, how would they know if they’re getting worse if they live in a one person household and don’t have someone they see often enough, and confide in, that is objective enough about how the treatment is going to provide feedback?

Pommy bastard12:55 pm 24 Feb 09

FC said :

oo – you beat me to it!
I hadn’t refreshed the page yet.. sorry PB

No worries 🙂

……..and still is used as an anti-depressant in Europe.

oo – you beat me to it!
I hadn’t refreshed the page yet.. sorry PB

“So you are talking about antidepressants? The drug you are talking about was never marketed as an antidepressant as it was not found effective, it was found effective in reducing smoking cravings.”

Actually it was initially marketed as an anti depressent.

Also – it has been found to produce anxiety/depression/suicidal thughts etc in patients taking it for reducing smoking, NOT already with pre existing depression.

Pommy bastard11:42 am 24 Feb 09

My apologies, I forgot Zyban, which was initially marketed as an antidepressant.

Pommy bastard11:40 am 24 Feb 09

dexi said :

OxyContin is an morphine based derivative so we are not talking anti-depressants. What we are talking is trusting what your doctor prescribes and supervision of the effects. We may also be talking that the doctor was actually trying to sedate his troubled partner so as to gain a direct benefit for him self.

So why did you say “I have trusted doctors in the past who have prescribed anti-depressants only to learn that they create depression and suicidal behaviour. Imagine taking a pill that takes you to the edge when its been prescribed as a management tool.” If you were not talking about anti-depressants?

Opiates, especially the strong ones can have a negative effect on a troubled mind.

Not all drugs effect people in the same way.

I agree.

Sorry your just plain wrong PB. I can tell you they do in some people. The best example is a recent anti- depressant used to treat smoking. Its prescribed to smokers to lesson the craving.

So you are talking about antidepressants? The drug you are talking about was never marketed as an antidepressant as it was not found effective, it was found effective in reducing smoking cravings.

In a small percentage of people it induces depression and suicidal thoughts.

No in a small percentage of people already with depressions, SSRI’s, not other antidepressants were found to exacerbates suicidal ideation.

Before you launch into your googled, multi post, off topic rebuttal you might like to just take it as a given that this is happening. People have been trying to raise this issue for a while. Occasionally you hear a little about it in the media. The drug companies are not to keen to have a discussion about it.

So I should take your word for it, and ignore my own research and experience? Why on earth would I do that?

Dexi – are you talking about Zyban?
Because I was prescribed that about 4-5 years ago to quit smoking. I had a history of depression, but nothing like what I was after taking Zyban. I went loopy! I took myself off after about a month or so if I recall correctly.
Apparently it was first prescribes as an anti depressent, however didn’t work, but they found it seemed to help the people on it reduce smoking, so hey – they prescribed it for that.
The list of side effects was ridiculous!
(I just love being a guinea pig for the drug companies)

OxyContin is an morphine based derivative so we are not talking anti-depressants. What we are talking is trusting what your doctor prescribes and supervision of the effects. We may also be talking that the doctor was actually trying to sedate his troubled partner so as to gain a direct benefit for him self.

Opiates, especially the strong ones can have a negative effect on a troubled mind.

Not all drugs effect people in the same way.

Sorry your just plain wrong PB. I can tell you they do in some people. The best example is a recent anti- depressant used to treat smoking. Its prescribed to smokers to lesson the craving. In a small percentage of people it induces depression and suicidal thoughts. Before you launch into your googled, multi post, off topic rebuttal you might like to just take it as a given that this is happening. People have been trying to raise this issue for a while. Occasionally you hear a little about it in the media. The drug companies are not to keen to have a discussion about it.

I wouldn’t be surpised if it was an Australia recommendation.
Without going into my medical history I once visited my old doctor for a pescription for a particular common drug. They asked my why I wanted it.
I said to the it was for x.
They then asked why I thought I had x.
I replied , “because YOU diagnosed me with x, after y & z tests”
Once again my confidence in the medical practice and doctors care for their patients was renewed!

disclaimer: I know that this is just one doctor, at just one practice and that many doctors are not this shit.

Pommy bastard10:48 am 24 Feb 09

It could be an American site which that info was taken from?

“Before using OxyContin, tell your doctor if you are allergic to any drugs, or if you have: etc etc”

ideally if the doctor is prescribing you this type of medication then they would already know this information!!

But expecting something so logical might be a bit too much I guess.

Pommy bastard10:42 am 24 Feb 09

Sorry my last post was addressed to Dexi’s points, FC jumped in before I could post 🙂

Pommy bastard10:40 am 24 Feb 09

Would you like me to provide evidence? How about this (from the world renowned BMJ);

Objective To investigate whether selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) antidepressants are associated with an increased risk of suicide related outcomes in adults.

Participants Over 40 000 individuals participating in 477 randomised controlled trials.

Main outcome measures Suicide, non-fatal self harm, and suicidal thoughts.

Conclusion Increased risks of suicide and self harm caused by SSRIs cannot be ruled out, but larger trials with longer follow up are required to assess the balance of risks and benefits fully. Any such risks should be balanced against the effectiveness of SSRIs in treating depression. When prescribing SSRIs, clinicians should warn patients of the possible risk of suicidal behaviour and monitor patients closely in the early stages of treatment.

Please note, this was a test on SSRI’s only, not all antidepressants.

Can you tell me how anti-depressants “cause’ depression? Did someone get prescribed anti-depressants when they were not depressed and end up getting depressed? In which case why were they prescribed anti-depressants in the first place?

Anti-depressants can do many things to to many people – lots that can be negative, lots that can be positive.

They are prescribed far too easily an without sufficient monitering and review. Or information about potential (and realistic liklihood) of side effects.

A lot of people who have been prescribed anti depressants usually have a lot going on in their life that effects their ability to accuratly reflect upon cause and effect – or the presence of negative side effects of medication:
(am I feeling this way because of a) my mental illness, b) the changes I have been making in my lifestyle recently c)my new medication d)many other variables) so that they are not reasonably able to go – hey – wait a minute I feel worse than before and it is because of my medication – I’m going to stop taking it now.
Also if they decide to stop taking it you go through a whole new cycle of crap, as they go throught withdrawel symptoms etc.
This can all happen without any requirement for monitoring and review of the patient.
It is completely dependant on the patient to follow up and monitor themselves (someone who is presenting as a patient with a mental illness that effects their ability to do this in the less complex areas of their life!)

Also – there is a huge element of hope there for a lot of people that they might no want the medication to not be working, as it is usually a last resort, and therefore if that doesn’t work then it can lead to loss of all hope for the person.

Sure PB what ever you say.

OxyContin

OxyContin is in a group of drugs called narcotic pain relievers. It is similar to morphine.

OxyContin is used to treat moderate to severe pain. The extended-release form of this medication is for around-the-clock treatment of pain. It is not for treating pain just after a surgery unless you were already taking it before the surgery.

OxyContin may also be used for purposes other than those listed in this medication guide.

Before using OxyContin, tell your doctor if you are allergic to any drugs, or if you have:

* asthma, COPD, sleep apnea, or other breathing disorders;
* liver or kidney disease;
* underactive thyroid;
* curvature of the spine;
* a history of head injury or brain tumor;
* epilepsy or other seizure disorder;
* low blood pressure;
* gallbladder disease;
* Addison’s disease or other adrenal gland disorders;
* enlarged prostate, urination problems;
* mental illness; or ********************************************
* a history of drug or alcohol addiction.**********************

Pommy bastard10:22 am 24 Feb 09

Anti-depressants do not “cause” depression, but it is true that in a tiny minority they may lead to an exacerbation of suicidal ideation already present. That is why doctors now follow a “low and slow” dosage regime.

yes. Psychologists do things like Cognitive Behavioural Therapy and CAN NOT prescribe drugs/medications.
Psychiatrist can prescribe medication/drugs/

Clown Killer9:52 am 24 Feb 09

I always thought that it was psychologists that helped patients by talkingthem through their issues and that psychiatrists focussed on medical treatment (drugs etc. Is that the case?

I know, and work with many psychologist and they all seem to be fine to me.
I won’t comment on the psychiatrists I’ve come accross in my time though…

“she might have ended up taking drugs she didn’t think she needed, because a medical professional she trusted thought she did.”

Just because you know something is wrong does not mean you can think your own way out. This is true of many mental illnesses. Trusting what a medical practitioner prescribes can also not make the issues better. Doctors prescribe drugs and then say see you in two weeks. That is two weeks of unsupervised drug taking.

I say this as I know that some drugs can have adverse effects on some people. I have trusted doctors in the past who have prescribed anti-depressants only to learn that they create depression and suicidal behaviour. Imagine taking a pill that takes you to the edge when its been prescribed as a management tool. I know that all the knowledge in the world will not help when you have to think your way out. It is hard enough to realise the drug you are taking has created your thought pattern. Its very sad when an accident happens and no-one is there to protect you. Sadder still when a badly prescribed and poorly supervised prescription drug may be the cause.

Affirmative Action Man said :

I’ve probably known 6 people qualified as psychologists and 5 of them were absolute nutters.

I have a theory that some people go and study psychology because they are mad & hope that by getting a psych degree they will understand their madness a bit better.

I’ve noticed that myself.

Affirmative Action Man9:15 am 24 Feb 09

I’ve probably known 6 people qualified as psychologists and 5 of them were absolute nutters.

I have a theory that some people go and study psychology because they are mad & hope that by getting a psych degree they will understand their madness a bit better.

Granny said :

What is the significance of the OxyContin? As a doctor, wouldn’t she know what she was taking? Well, I’m confused ….

I was thinking about this Granny. One of the things that often goes when people are experiencing mental health problems or extreme stress is their insight and clarity of thought regarding their personal issues. (Hence for example, people start to believe there is nothing that can be done to help their situation so suicide is their only option, whereas those on the outside can see that there are things that could be done to help the person.) Dr Lioulios having had some medical training probably knew this, and so may have been inclined not to rely on her own judgment and preferred to place her trust in Dr Veness on this particular issue. Hence, she might have ended up taking drugs she didn’t think she needed, because a medical professional she trusted thought she did.

Yep, he looks like just the kind of bloke you’d go to see if you were going around the bend – not.

Good to see that the medical establishment looks after its own – take a peep at the loony doc’s CV on that link above (extract below). Clearly the medical establishment thinks it need make no attempt at accountability because we Would Not Understand.

Current Posts
AMA Councillor (ACT Branch)
Elected Member of the Medical Board of the ACT
Councillor on ACT Branch of RANZCP (Psychiatrist’s College)

Yes, in fact I am kind of speechless!

: D

Yes Granny, spoilt for choice, you women. So many good men going to waste.

Greg of Ragless Circuit, Kambah … Dr Veness … Greg of Ragless Circuit, Kambah … Dr Veness …. Hmmmm.

Probably leaning towards Greg of Ragless Circuit, Kambah at this stage. He seems less like a human health warning.

Still, going by past trends there’s probably some lucky woman out there for Dr Veness ….

; )

From Dr. Veness’ profile:
Love and Marriage
So far: 4 wives (in succession) – 3 official and one unofficial.
3 kids. (All to the unofficial wife.)
Currently looking for a 5th wife.

Why would I go to him with my problems? Looks like he has enough of his own.

.

What is the significance of the OxyContin? As a doctor, wouldn’t she know what she was taking? Well, I’m confused ….

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