20 November 2013

Road safety cameras being evaluated

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Simon Corbell announced today that Canberra’s road safety camera program is to be evaluated in order to assess what its impact exactly has been on crash and speeding rates in the ACT.

Proposals will be sought by the end of the year with evaluatin taking place over the first half of 2014.

“The ACT’s Road Safety Camera Program is one component of managing speed crash risks on ACT roads, along with police enforcement and community education and awareness. It is important that we understand how effectively the cameras are contributing to road safety outcomes,” said Mr Corbell.

“The camera program has evolved over more than a decade and now includes mobile, red light and speed, fixed speed only and point to point cameras. With a decade of operation now established, it is appropriate to evaluate the performance of the program as a whole

“An evaluation of the program will assist the Government to identify any opportunities to gain improved road safety effectiveness from the existing program and help ensure that any future changes are as well informed as possible.

“The evaluation will look at the impact of the road safety camera program as well as the governance of the program.”

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johnboy said :

I do sit at the top of a pretty big information stack.

Moderately reassuring.

Woody Mann-Caruso6:47 pm 21 Nov 13

There is certainly a common perception

How do you know – ‘certainly’, no less?

Let me guess – there’s a common perception that there’s a common perception?

I do sit at the top of a pretty big information stack.

and another point more people are dying on the Barton hwy than in any position that fixed speed cameras are placed .

Better to have an evaluation on Government hypocrisy. The Gov in the last few years are wearing blinkers and selectively governing for a few people and not all the people.

JC said :

gazket said :

More Labor waste

Hardly waste when they are making money!

PS think you will find the first camera’s, the ones on Northborne Ave started rolling out under Kate Carnell.

I don’t care who put the first camera in, I’m not side picking. Money from this wasteful evaluation could go to lets say the respite house that the government is closing down .

We all know what the evaluation will say they help with road safety.

Some pollie mate will get a fat pay check for evaluating something we all ready know the answer too.

That’s why it’s more Labor waste.

johnboy said :

There is certainly a common perception, of which I share, that there’s a lot more red light running going on now than there used to be.

Anecdotal evidence certainly points to it.

Woody Mann-Caruso4:14 pm 21 Nov 13

Buggered if I can come up with any other explanation for the boom in red light running.

You claim that people are probably running more red lights because there are no cameras and no police. If they’re not detected by cameras and they’re not detected by police, how do you know that there’s a ‘boom’ in red light running by ‘ever-booming’ red light runners?

There is certainly a common perception, of which I share, that there’s a lot more red light running going on now than there used to be.

Watson said :

Russ said :

I believe the since the introduction of red-light cameras, the incidence of people running red lights at other intersections has *significantly* increased. The logic is simple – the installation of the cameras sends the message that the law is only enforced at those intersections, not at others. It’s now not uncommon to have your light turn green with someone still clearing the intersection, meaning they entered well after the light had turned red for them.

What twisted logic… Following that reasoning, one should never hand out penalties for any crime or misdemeanor because it will send the message to others that “it ain’t a crime if you don’t get caught”.

So if you’d park a cop at the Dickson servo, you are actively encouraging people to go rob a petrol station elsewhere. Because the law does not get enforced there.

The mind boggles…

???

Watson said :

Russ said :

I believe the since the introduction of red-light cameras, the incidence of people running red lights at other intersections has *significantly* increased. The logic is simple – the installation of the cameras sends the message that the law is only enforced at those intersections, not at others. It’s now not uncommon to have your light turn green with someone still clearing the intersection, meaning they entered well after the light had turned red for them.

What twisted logic… Following that reasoning, one should never hand out penalties for any crime or misdemeanor because it will send the message to others that “it ain’t a crime if you don’t get caught”.

So if you’d park a cop at the Dickson servo, you are actively encouraging people to go rob a petrol station elsewhere. Because the law does not get enforced there.

The mind boggles…

Well, your mind may boggle and barf up poor analogies all it likes … my suspicion is that Russ is correct, if a touch simplistic. The mind of the ever-booming population of red light runners goes more like – and this is, necessarily, speculation on my part – “there’s no red light camera here AND I know there aren’t any police around, coz there never are. Giddy up.”

Buggered if I can come up with any other explanation for the boom in red light running. Maybe an element of frustration at having to stop after crawling through yet another unmanned roadwork site, but the problem seems even more widespread than non-functional roadwork sites.

Watson said :

Russ said :

I believe the since the introduction of red-light cameras, the incidence of people running red lights at other intersections has *significantly* increased. The logic is simple – the installation of the cameras sends the message that the law is only enforced at those intersections, not at others. It’s now not uncommon to have your light turn green with someone still clearing the intersection, meaning they entered well after the light had turned red for them.

What twisted logic… Following that reasoning, one should never hand out penalties for any crime or misdemeanor because it will send the message to others that “it ain’t a crime if you don’t get caught”.

So if you’d park a cop at the Dickson servo, you are actively encouraging people to go rob a petrol station elsewhere. Because the law does not get enforced there.

The mind boggles…

No, the lesson is that the law should be evenly and consistently applied.

Russ said :

I believe the since the introduction of red-light cameras, the incidence of people running red lights at other intersections has *significantly* increased. The logic is simple – the installation of the cameras sends the message that the law is only enforced at those intersections, not at others. It’s now not uncommon to have your light turn green with someone still clearing the intersection, meaning they entered well after the light had turned red for them.

What twisted logic… Following that reasoning, one should never hand out penalties for any crime or misdemeanor because it will send the message to others that “it ain’t a crime if you don’t get caught”.

So if you’d park a cop at the Dickson servo, you are actively encouraging people to go rob a petrol station elsewhere. Because the law does not get enforced there.

The mind boggles…

Pork Hunt said :

Deref said :

Needs citation.

http://www.cessna.com/citation

Now that’s the kind of citation I’d like!

Felix the Cat1:30 pm 21 Nov 13

I believe (CBF looking up a cite) when they lowered the speed limit in Northern Territory road deaths actually increased.

I believe the since the introduction of red-light cameras, the incidence of people running red lights at other intersections has *significantly* increased. The logic is simple – the installation of the cameras sends the message that the law is only enforced at those intersections, not at others. It’s now not uncommon to have your light turn green with someone still clearing the intersection, meaning they entered well after the light had turned red for them.

Deref said :

gooterz said :

The last 10 years traffic in most cities has increased and slowed down anyway…

Most accidents happen at night when there are the least amount of people on the road. Why? They are overworked and too tired to drive fall asleep and find a tree to smash into.

Many accidents in the act are due to tail gating…

Most speeding accidents you hear about where the prep is going 160km/h+ is done using stolen cars…

Needs citation.

http://www.cessna.com/citation

Watson said :

gooterz said :

Also last time I said that speed cameras cause accidents (mostly due to tail gating and breaking cars) I saw two accidents on the parkway on two consecutive days straight after.

So it wasn’t the speed cameras that caused the accident. It was tailgating and inappropriate braking. If they’re that suprised by the sight of a speed camera that they step on your brake without even checking their mirrors, they should either drink a lot more coffee or lay off the weed. I’ve no such kind words for the tailgaters. They’re all d!cks.

But if their car is breaking, they probably shouldn’t be driving it because it will break even more.

learn the difference between ‘breaking’ and braking’ before trying to come up with a clever proverb.

HiddenDragon11:36 am 21 Nov 13

johnboy said :

I used to buy the distraction argument.

And I’d be all for taking a lot of the crap off our roadsides.

But if you’re unable to keep track of speed signs you’re not really competent to be driving IMHO.

Up to a point, but it depends upon the margin for error allowed by speed cameras – a national secret of the highest classication, I imagine – so we may need to look to Edward Snowden and The Guardian for advice on that – in four years time……

gooterz said :

Also last time I said that speed cameras cause accidents (mostly due to tail gating and breaking cars) I saw two accidents on the parkway on two consecutive days straight after.

So it wasn’t the speed cameras that caused the accident. It was tailgating and inappropriate braking. If they’re that suprised by the sight of a speed camera that they step on your brake without even checking their mirrors, they should either drink a lot more coffee or lay off the weed. I’ve no such kind words for the tailgaters. They’re all d!cks.

But if their car is breaking, they probably shouldn’t be driving it because it will break even more.

gooterz said :

The last 10 years traffic in most cities has increased and slowed down anyway…

Most accidents happen at night when there are the least amount of people on the road. Why? They are overworked and too tired to drive fall asleep and find a tree to smash into.

Many accidents in the act are due to tail gating…

Most speeding accidents you hear about where the prep is going 160km/h+ is done using stolen cars…

Needs citation.

gazket said :

More Labor waste

Hardly waste when they are making money!

PS think you will find the first camera’s, the ones on Northborne Ave started rolling out under Kate Carnell.

The road safety goes up as more cameras are installed.

The last 10 years traffic in most cities has increased and slowed down anyway and cars are consistently safer than they have ever been.

Most accidents happen at night when there are the least amount of people on the road. Why? They are overworked and too tired to drive fall asleep and find a tree to smash into.

Many accidents in the act are due to tail gating, I’m yet to see a tailgating camera.
Most others are intersections and failing to give way/ running reds.

Most speeding accidents you hear about where the prep is going 160km/h+ is done using stolen cars. How is a speeding ticket going to help reduce car theft?

Has anyone noticed how many people are using the speed cushions as pedestrian crossings? I always have to give way to pedestrians walking out in front of my car walking over the speed bumps.. why because some idiot painted white lines on them.

If the government was concerned about accidents they wouldn’t clutter the intersections with on street parking which obstructs sight lines. (Moore street and others).

Also last time I said that speed cameras cause accidents (mostly due to tail gating and breaking cars) I saw two accidents on the parkway on two consecutive days straight after.

However: Cudos for the gov for fixing the tunnels on the parkway.

BimboGeek said :

Well I’ll agree with the “feedback comes far too late after making the mistake” argument. Teachers know students learn from mistakes only if they are caught immediately and the correct answer reinforced. Otherwise they only learn to continue making the same mistake.

I’ll call bogus on that argument too. Why does the presence of speed cameras slow people down? Because they know that the possibility of getting caught is 100%. If, as you argue, only an immediate fine has an effect, then people would not slow down. Also; your argument sort of invalidates the entire justice system, unless it was run by Judge Dredd..

Woody Mann-Caruso8:08 pm 20 Nov 13

According to an ABC radio listener, studies done at English universities

What is it like being you? What is it like living your life thinking some person you don’t know calling a radio station waving their hands about unnamed studies at unnamed English universities is a good benchmark for reality? I just can’t comprehend what the world looks like in your head. Is it black and white, because colours would be too confusing?

Well I’ll agree with the “feedback comes far too late after making the mistake” argument. Teachers know students learn from mistakes only if they are caught immediately and the correct answer reinforced. Otherwise they only learn to continue making the same mistake.

goggles13 said :

a sample size of 8 is not really meaningful

60 seconds of googling produces this meta-study that found 28 of 28 available studies showed a reduction in crashes after the installation of speed cameras.

More Labor waste

Martlark said :

maxblues said :

According to an ABC radio listener, studies done at English universities show that speed cameras/speed camera signs cause more accidents because motorists are too busy checking the sides of roads and their speedometer, rather than watching the road conditions and the traffic around them. A point was made about the distinction between driving in a safe manner and keeping below a speed limit.The NRMA (also on ABC radio) are not fans of speed cameras because of the lag time and disconnect between someone speeding and someone receiving a fine in the mail. They would prefer a larger police presence on the roads to discourage people speeding in ‘real time’.

I call bunk on this. A quick search of scientific data shows up the follow meta analysis from the British Medical Journal. http://www.bmj.com/content/330/7487/331

Abstract quote:

Results: 14 observational studies met the inclusion criteria; no randomised controlled trials were found. Most studies were before-after studies without controls (n = 8). All but one of the studies showed effectiveness of cameras up to three years or less after their introduction; one study showed sustained longer term effects (4.6 years after introduction). Reductions in outcomes across studies ranged from 5% to 69% for collisions, 12% to 65% for injuries, and 17% to 71% for deaths in the immediate vicinity of camera sites. The reductions over wider geographical areas were of a similar order of magnitude.

So, there you are, speed cameras are effective in reducing death and injuries on the roads.

a sample size of 8 is not really meaningful

maxblues said :

According to an ABC radio listener, studies done at English universities show that speed cameras/speed camera signs cause more accidents because motorists are too busy checking the sides of roads and their speedometer, rather than watching the road conditions and the traffic around them. A point was made about the distinction between driving in a safe manner and keeping below a speed limit.The NRMA (also on ABC radio) are not fans of speed cameras because of the lag time and disconnect between someone speeding and someone receiving a fine in the mail. They would prefer a larger police presence on the roads to discourage people speeding in ‘real time’.

I call bunk on this. A quick search of scientific data shows up the follow meta analysis from the British Medical Journal. http://www.bmj.com/content/330/7487/331

Abstract quote:

Results: 14 observational studies met the inclusion criteria; no randomised controlled trials were found. Most studies were before-after studies without controls (n = 8). All but one of the studies showed effectiveness of cameras up to three years or less after their introduction; one study showed sustained longer term effects (4.6 years after introduction). Reductions in outcomes across studies ranged from 5% to 69% for collisions, 12% to 65% for injuries, and 17% to 71% for deaths in the immediate vicinity of camera sites. The reductions over wider geographical areas were of a similar order of magnitude.

So, there you are, speed cameras are effective in reducing death and injuries on the roads.

I used to buy the distraction argument.

And I’d be all for taking a lot of the crap off our roadsides.

But if you’re unable to keep track of speed signs you’re not really competent to be driving IMHO.

According to an ABC radio listener, studies done at English universities show that speed cameras/speed camera signs cause more accidents because motorists are too busy checking the sides of roads and their speedometer, rather than watching the road conditions and the traffic around them. A point was made about the distinction between driving in a safe manner and keeping below a speed limit.The NRMA (also on ABC radio) are not fans of speed cameras because of the lag time and disconnect between someone speeding and someone receiving a fine in the mail. They would prefer a larger police presence on the roads to discourage people speeding in ‘real time’.

i like how speed cameras have now become ‘road safety’ cameras because we all know they have multiple applications like taking photos of numbskulls texting while driving, dangerously chopping in and out of lanes etc. yep good old road safety cameras targeting speed only.

house_husband1:07 pm 20 Nov 13

Put more of them and offset my taxes/ rego/ whatever against the undoubted revenue that they will bring in!

Agreed. I haven’t been caught speeding in 20+ years of driving so I’m in favour of dozens more cameras if this offsets my rego fees or rates.

Just so long as everyone realises they do nothing to very little in actually contributing to road safety.

Put more of them and offset my taxes/ rego/ whatever against the undoubted revenue that they will bring in!

This.

I welcome a review to see if they could make more a of a difference in different locations. But keep the ones that are already there where they are if they bring in the revenue. It’s easy money that then doesn’t have to get tacked onto our rates bills.

thebrownstreak6911:07 am 20 Nov 13

“…asses what its impact…”

Tee hee.

I swear I read/heard elsewhere speed cameras were introduced by the Liberals. So this is perfect – if the cameras are ineffective it’s not Corbell’s fault. But assuming they are effective he will have no choice but to follow the report…

I also query the quote used in the Canberra Times that speed is a factor in more than a quarter of accidents. What does this really mean? In the context of speed cameras this can only mean more than 1 in 4 accidents are caused by cars breaking the speed limit, which I find highly unlikely.

goggles13 said :

how much is the studying costing?

easy to predict the outcomes:
1. Effectively contributing to road safety and more should be installed to further help this.
2. Making a shedload of money for the Govt, so install more.

I would have to agree, money grabbing that does nothing to slow people down once they are ‘clear’ of these cameras.

how much is the studying costing?

easy to predict the outcomes:
1. Effectively contributing to road safety and more should be installed to further help this.
2. Making a shedload of money for the Govt, so install more.

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