19 March 2013

Selection criteria writers in Canberra?

| davjp
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Hi rioters, I am looking at applying for a promotion and have to do a selection criteria up. I’m awesome 🙂 but I’m not good at selling myself.

Has anyone used one of the many companies that write the criteria for you? If so any good ones to speak of?

Cheers

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devils_advocate said :

Pitchka said :

Lookout Smithers said :

As I understand it to get a promotion in the APS you only need to brown nose the boss. How hard can it be to otherwise? Gov Depts are run by some of the simplest folk around.

And this is why you are not employed in the APS, clearly, you are stupid.

Being stupid is not a barrier to employment in the APS or anywhere else. Nor is descending into personal insults when lacking a substantive argument, it appears.

You have been here long enough to know that insults and tyre slashing are what make me a Pitchka. Wake up moron!

He he mysteryman, got me there about ‘strategise’ (see how insidious it is?!)

And no, I have personally not found writing SC difficult since entering the PS (hence my recent promotion) because I now know how to play the game. But I do resent having to waste my time doing so. And I still remember how damn hard it was trying to get into the PS in the first place, given the weird, standalone writing genre that is SC.

devils_advocate12:41 pm 20 Mar 13

BimboGeek said :

mezza76 said :

I can spot a ‘generic app’ a mile away versus an application where someone has put a heap of work into it.

But it can take HOURS to respond to selection criteria. I understand that some jobs are very specialised and you want someone who has the exact skills, experience and interest. But why weed out a generic application for a generic job?

^This. Broad application of the 80/20 rule. Customisation was necessary for apps at around the EL1 level, I generally didn’t engage in clean-sheet drafting until EL2 level.

devils_advocate12:37 pm 20 Mar 13

kakosi said :

Once you get to the interview stage it’s up to you to sell yourself as people don’t get jobs because of well-written answers to selection criteria – they get interviews.

+1000.

If I can offer another suggestion – in the absence of formal interview coaching, you can do informal interview practice, which I find helps a lot. People often tend to assume they will rock up on the day and what happens, happens. In fact, I find it’s like most other things, practice makes perfect (or, at least, significantly improves the outcome).

Find a ‘friend’ – preferably someone you don’t know – and have them invent some questions. Just generic ones, eg teamwork, role of this department, why you want this job, tell us about a time when… etc. Get them to ask you the questions. Then, practice telling your answers. Talking about your work and what you do for 45 mins is an endurance event you need to train for. Many people will pause, hesitate, use phrases like “you know” (NO! I don’t know! That’s why I asked you!) or just um and err a lot. The good news is, after a few practice runs, this stops. Better to learn these lessons in practice interviews rather than the real thing.

Also, it can sometimes be hard to explain what you do, as you’re so close to your own work that it’s hard to break it down enough to enable a stranger to understand. Have a set of multi-purpose anecdotes that say good things about your abilities, and practice re-telling them until you have it down (like Mr Orange in Resevior Dogs).

There is a book called How to Write and Speak to Selection Criteria by Dr Ann Villiers (sp?) that might be worth chasing up. I think it’s the fourth or fifth edition, which says a lot about Canberra!

mezza76 said :

I can spot a ‘generic app’ a mile away versus an application where someone has put a heap of work into it.

But it can take HOURS to respond to selection criteria. I understand that some jobs are very specialised and you want someone who has the exact skills, experience and interest. But why weed out a generic application for a generic job?

I barely even bother reading application letters for junior positions … I can gather a lot about a person’s communication skills just by reading their resume and a short chat generally gives me an idea what they would be like to work with.

Shop around, there are people who specialise in writing selection criteria for government jobs in Canberra. If you’ve never applied for a government job before you won’t know the language and format that they insist upon and you’re unlikely to get an interview.

I used a professional resume and criteria writer the first time I applied for a government job and it got me to interview. Once you get to the interview stage it’s up to you to sell yourself as people don’t get jobs because of well-written answers to selection criteria – they get interviews.

devils_advocate12:08 pm 20 Mar 13

mezza76 said :

As someone who has chaired a lot of panels, a well written response to a selection criteria is just one of a range of things I’ll look at to judge you 😉 – don’t forget to have a very good CV – I often find it more useful than a selection criteria to work out the skills of a applicant. I usually go to a detailed read of the selection criteria after i’ve already made my ‘cut’ of hopelessly unqualified applicants. In your case, make sure you have both short, concise and with relevant examples. I can spot a ‘generic app’ a mile away versus an application where someone has put a heap of work into it.

One manifestation of Optimism Bias is that individuals tend to over-estimate their ability to detect dishonesty or lack of candour in others. Even when faced with evidence about base probabilities, individuals will tend to place more faith (statistically speaking, ill-founded faith) in their own subjective assessment.

devils_advocate11:39 am 20 Mar 13

Pitchka said :

Lookout Smithers said :

As I understand it to get a promotion in the APS you only need to brown nose the boss. How hard can it be to otherwise? Gov Depts are run by some of the simplest folk around.

And this is why you are not employed in the APS, clearly, you are stupid.

Being stupid is not a barrier to employment in the APS or anywhere else. Nor is descending into personal insults when lacking a substantive argument, it appears.

Lookout Smithers said :

As I understand it to get a promotion in the APS you only need to brown nose the boss. How hard can it be to otherwise? Gov Depts are run by some of the simplest folk around.

And this is why you are not employed in the APS, clearly, you are stupid.

Lookout Smithers said :

As I understand it to get a promotion in the APS you only need to brown nose the boss. How hard can it be to otherwise? Gov Depts are run by some of the simplest folk around.

trolling much??

devils_advocate11:21 am 20 Mar 13

Mysteryman said :

Of course you are going to have trouble with addressing selection criteria.

I have no trouble whatsoever drafting selection statements. I have drafted statements that have contributed to selection at levels from GAPS-EL2. However, I have a healthy skepticism about the usefulness of these criteria and recognise that many people have difficulty with them.

Lookout Smithers10:57 am 20 Mar 13

As I understand it to get a promotion in the APS you only need to brown nose the boss. How hard can it be to otherwise? Gov Depts are run by some of the simplest folk around.

miz said :

‘Selection criteria’ is basically a ridiculous game public servants have to play. No wonder people strategise about how to do it. Having to use all those BS meaningless weasel words can drive a normal person crazy (eg strategic, resilience, innovative, leveraging).

Davjp, I would take the advice given in post #2, and don’t feel bad at all. Any obvious discrepancies between the SC and interview (eg difference in written literacy v English language skills) will be evident at interview. These days agencies place far more weight on the interview than SC (because many people get help writing them due to their daft and incomprehensible nature), which makes one wonder why SC required at all.

“Strategic” and “innovative” are weasel words, are they? But “strategise” is ok?

There is a very simple and effective way to address selection criteria that shows that the applicant has relevant experience and sound reading comprehension and writing skills. Which, despite the insistence of unsuccessful applicant in this thread, are actually quite important in an environment requiring routine reporting/accountability/paper trails. If you’re finding it that difficult you’re probably applying for the wrong job.

devils_advocate said :

Mysteryman said :

Responding to selection criteria is not difficult. A few minutes googling will provide you with links to useful advice. If you lack the ability to write an appropriate, consise written response, you probably shouldn’t be applying for the job.

My sincere apologies, but – based on my frankly extensive experience – that is laughable.

Firstly, most jobs that require lengthy, repetetitive and vague selection criteria do NOT require high-level or even adequate writing skills. Look at what is required for an EA job if you don’t believe me. Yet, unless you can wax lyrical about APS values and code of conduct, you won’t get a look in. Up until EL1 everything gets re-written multiple times as it works it way up through the bureaucracy, to the extent that actual writing skills are nearly irrellevant.

Secondly, in terms of relevance – most criteria are the same. Something on written communication, something on oral communication, something on teamwork, maybe ‘conceptual and analytical skills’ or some equally vague variation therefore, and maybe – just maybe, if they are particularly wank-worthy – something about leadership (not just for EL2s and above – I’ve seen it for APS 5s). The ‘generic’ ones massively outnumber the crazy one-offs like DIAC etc, so the optimal strategy is to draft the ‘one size fits all’ statement, and scatterbomb them around.

Finally – and I’m not sure I’m reading this right, so happy to be corrected – there seems to be some fear that if you get someone to write your statement, this could somehow be found out later on and used to your detriment. Please. Unless you go advertising the fact, there’s no way this could happen, and in any case the APS is so incapable of managing even gross incompetence there is no concievable way they could devote the resources required to first prove it, and secondly prove it was some kind of breach actionable by any sanctions.

/rant.

I’m yet to apply for a job that had “lengthy, repetetitive and vague selection criteria”. It sounds like you don’t possess the ability to understand why communication, teamwork, and critical thinking skills would be relevant to the public service. Of course you are going to have trouble with addressing selection criteria.

JC said :

zorro29 said :

how about writing it yourself so you’re not giving yourself an undeserved advantage over other honest applicants

I am curious as to how getting someone to write an application for you is being dishonest and giving an advantage?

In my case I am bloody good at what I do, but s*** at writting. The application (unless the job calls for a writer) shoulod be written to prove you meet the criteria not that you are good at writting. So really what is the issue getting someone else to do it?

PS my last one was written by my wife, does that make me dishonest?

short answer: yes

long answer: yes

i am excellent at my job but not great in interviews…maybe i should outsource that too. is your wife available?

‘Selection criteria’ is basically a ridiculous game public servants have to play. No wonder people strategise about how to do it. Having to use all those BS meaningless weasel words can drive a normal person crazy (eg strategic, resilience, innovative, leveraging).

Davjp, I would take the advice given in post #2, and don’t feel bad at all. Any obvious discrepancies between the SC and interview (eg difference in written literacy v English language skills) will be evident at interview. These days agencies place far more weight on the interview than SC (because many people get help writing them due to their daft and incomprehensible nature), which makes one wonder why SC required at all.

JC said :

zorro29 said :

how about writing it yourself so you’re not giving yourself an undeserved advantage over other honest applicants

I am curious as to how getting someone to write an application for you is being dishonest and giving an advantage?

In my case I am bloody good at what I do, but s*** at writting. The application (unless the job calls for a writer) shoulod be written to prove you meet the criteria not that you are good at writting. So really what is the issue getting someone else to do it?

PS my last one was written by my wife, does that make me dishonest?

As someone who has chaired a lot of panels, a well written response to a selection criteria is just one of a range of things I’ll look at to judge you 😉 – don’t forget to have a very good CV – I often find it more useful than a selection criteria to work out the skills of a applicant. I usually go to a detailed read of the selection criteria after i’ve already made my ‘cut’ of hopelessly unqualified applicants. In your case, make sure you have both short, concise and with relevant examples. I can spot a ‘generic app’ a mile away versus an application where someone has put a heap of work into it.

Personally, it won’t matter who writes your response to a selection criteria (I help my wife with hers and always get someone to read over mine – just to keep the quality assurance up). With a CV and a in-depth interview, most of the time you can work out who is good and who isn’t.

devils_advocate said :

Don’t use a company. Outsiders don’t know the APS language.

Find someone that is at least one level, preferably two levels above the level you want to apply for, and ask them for their help.

And contrary to post #1, don’t feel bad about getting someone else to write it for you. At the risk of sounding like Lance, everyone else is doing it and you need to do it to in order to keep up. The selection statement just gets you through the culling process, you need to shine in the interview to get the job.

Final advice – don’t put all your eggs in one basket. Once you’ve drafted up a good set of general-purpose criteria, use them for as many jobs as you can and take a flexible approach to what jobs you want. I would suggest applying for a bare minimum of 4 jobs per fortnight, depending on what level you’re at (at EL2 or above the jobs become a bit thin on the ground).

No wonder the APS is rooted due to lack of expertise, among many other reasons. Nobody sits still long enough to be able to figure out what they’re supposed to be doing.

I see this all the time at The Department Of Obfuscated, where everybody changes seats and hats every year or so. We’re constantly dealing with blundering bloody amateurs who’ve just rolled in to replace the previous amateur. It makes it unnecessarily hard for everybody.

I’ve worked for the same crew for over 20 years, and in the same role for the last 8 years. This doesn’t mean I’m a bumbling old fart with no ability, it means I’m the best in the country, and among the best in the world, at what I do because I’ve done it long enough to develop expertise.

Sigh. Screaming into the void, I suspect.

JC said :

zorro29 said :

how about writing it yourself so you’re not giving yourself an undeserved advantage over other honest applicants

I am curious as to how getting someone to write an application for you is being dishonest and giving an advantage?

In my case I am bloody good at what I do, but s*** at writting.

Nailed that one.

fabforty said :

c_c™ said :

Part of the process of writing the selection criteria is your ability to respond relevantly and with concision.

If you can’t do that yourself, I’m sorry, but you’ve already failed one of the tests for the job. Don’t cheat others by outsourcing it. Focus instead on gaining advice and skills that will enable you to do it yourself better.

Totally agree. Having someone else writing your application is a kind of fraud. Is that same person going to come to work with you and write your briefs for you ?

If the public service had a problem with people getting other people to help with their applications, they would ask them to sign off that it is all their own work. No, it isn’t fraud.

Pitchka said :

FXST01 said :

Isn’t the APS selection criteria, where they hold a mirror under your nose and see if it fogs up?

WTF does that even mean?

I really hope that is not a serious comment.

zorro29 said :

how about writing it yourself so you’re not giving yourself an undeserved advantage over other honest applicants

I am curious as to how getting someone to write an application for you is being dishonest and giving an advantage?

In my case I am bloody good at what I do, but s*** at writting. The application (unless the job calls for a writer) shoulod be written to prove you meet the criteria not that you are good at writting. So really what is the issue getting someone else to do it?

PS my last one was written by my wife, does that make me dishonest?

c_c™ said :

Part of the process of writing the selection criteria is your ability to respond relevantly and with concision.

If you can’t do that yourself, I’m sorry, but you’ve already failed one of the tests for the job. Don’t cheat others by outsourcing it. Focus instead on gaining advice and skills that will enable you to do it yourself better.

Totally agree. Having someone else writing your application is a kind of fraud. Is that same person going to come to work with you and write your briefs for you ?

Do the panel already want you? If not, don’t bother.

devils_advocate5:18 pm 19 Mar 13

Dork said :

Devils_Advocate sounds like that person who jumps from entry level position to entry level position and thinks that they know everything.

Project much?

devils_advocate5:15 pm 19 Mar 13

Genie said :

Also #8 devils advocate. Have your worked as an EA?? They are the most under appreciated person in your office. Extremely underpaid too. God I’d hate to be your coworker.

*sigh*

I agree they are overworked and underpaid. I also agree it is a very highly skilled position. It requires people skills, *actual* time management skills, *actual* ability to prioritise, and also flexibility (especially in more recent years where the EA role now often includes ministerial liaison and departmental coord).

Those are all very, very important skills that not many people have and which are essential to running a work area.

However, the written skills are not as demanding as other jobs. In fact, I think there’s very few jobs in the APS that justify the extraordinarily high emphasis that is placed on the written selection statement. That goes for fairly senior quantitative analysis roles, just as for EAs. EAs was just one example I thought of. Probably many service delivery areas don’t require extremely sophisticated writing skills. Excluding people on the basis of writing skills for those jobs that don’t really need them, means you miss out of people that would probably do a great job.

pink little birdie4:45 pm 19 Mar 13

apparently if you use one of these people you pay $100 ish and you still have to tell them all the examples of your work history so that they can write it up.
My advice is to write your examples your self using the STAR method and then edit the bejezus of them using people you know are good at writing or are good at their higher level job.

Tetranitrate said :

c_c™ said :

Part of the process of writing the selection criteria is your ability to respond relevantly and with concision.

I take it you’ve never applied for a role in the APS then?

On the contrary, and additionally my statement is supported by written materials used in public service recruitment. They’re freely available, please seek them out.

“You have to do a selection criteria up”

Clearly your writing skills need improving.

Also #8 devils advocate. Have your worked as an EA?? They are the most under appreciated person in your office. Extremely underpaid too. God I’d hate to be your coworker.

Tetranitrate4:24 pm 19 Mar 13

c_c™ said :

Part of the process of writing the selection criteria is your ability to respond relevantly and with concision.

I take it you’ve never applied for a role in the APS then?

Devils_Advocate sounds like that person who jumps from entry level position to entry level position and thinks that they know everything.

Part of the process of writing the selection criteria is your ability to respond relevantly and with concision.

If you can’t do that yourself, I’m sorry, but you’ve already failed one of the tests for the job. Don’t cheat others by outsourcing it. Focus instead on gaining advice and skills that will enable you to do it yourself better.

FXST01 said :

Isn’t the APS selection criteria, where they hold a mirror under your nose and see if it fogs up?

WTF does that even mean?

Isn’t the APS selection criteria, where they hold a mirror under your nose and see if it fogs up?

devils_advocate2:35 pm 19 Mar 13

artuoui said :

Madam Cholet said :

Just don’t write that you have ‘attention to detail’ and follow it with a spelling error. Biggest bugbear ever.
Remember, that if it is made up you’ll get found out pretty quickly.

But not necessarily before the probation period is up – and then it becomes their problem, not yours.

LOL, too true.

(assuming probation isn’t waived i.e. OP is coming in from outside, as opposed to getting a promotion).

devils_advocate2:32 pm 19 Mar 13

Mysteryman said :

Responding to selection criteria is not difficult. A few minutes googling will provide you with links to useful advice. If you lack the ability to write an appropriate, consise written response, you probably shouldn’t be applying for the job.

My sincere apologies, but – based on my frankly extensive experience – that is laughable.

Firstly, most jobs that require lengthy, repetetitive and vague selection criteria do NOT require high-level or even adequate writing skills. Look at what is required for an EA job if you don’t believe me. Yet, unless you can wax lyrical about APS values and code of conduct, you won’t get a look in. Up until EL1 everything gets re-written multiple times as it works it way up through the bureaucracy, to the extent that actual writing skills are nearly irrellevant.

Secondly, in terms of relevance – most criteria are the same. Something on written communication, something on oral communication, something on teamwork, maybe ‘conceptual and analytical skills’ or some equally vague variation therefore, and maybe – just maybe, if they are particularly wank-worthy – something about leadership (not just for EL2s and above – I’ve seen it for APS 5s). The ‘generic’ ones massively outnumber the crazy one-offs like DIAC etc, so the optimal strategy is to draft the ‘one size fits all’ statement, and scatterbomb them around.

Finally – and I’m not sure I’m reading this right, so happy to be corrected – there seems to be some fear that if you get someone to write your statement, this could somehow be found out later on and used to your detriment. Please. Unless you go advertising the fact, there’s no way this could happen, and in any case the APS is so incapable of managing even gross incompetence there is no concievable way they could devote the resources required to first prove it, and secondly prove it was some kind of breach actionable by any sanctions.

/rant.

Madam Cholet said :

Just don’t write that you have ‘attention to detail’ and follow it with a spelling error. Biggest bugbear ever.
Remember, that if it is made up you’ll get found out pretty quickly.

But not necessarily before the probation period is up – and then it becomes their problem, not yours.

Madam Cholet2:05 pm 19 Mar 13

Just don’t write that you have ‘attention to detail’ and follow it with a spelling error. Biggest bugbear ever.
Remember, that if it is made up you’ll get found out pretty quickly.

..and you don’t ‘write section criteria’ – you respond to them.

have a look at the job requirements and write a short para each on one or two examples from your work (and private) life that demonstrate you have the skill required or could patently acquire it and this is your response.

many jobs have criteria on communication and use the written application as some of the basis for their assessment of your written skills, so if you do get someone else to write the application for you you may be seen to be wilfully misleading the panel if you don’t decalre this within your submitted application…

zorro29 said :

actually everyone isn’t doing it and frankly, as someone who has to sort applications, it’s annoying when people mass apply for jobs with irrelevant junk. they stand out for the wrong reasons as they aren’t tailored to the role or agency.

if you need someone to write your applications to get past the screening process, maybe you should look for another job

Agreed.

In response to the the first poster – addressing selection criteria is not about “selling yourself”. It’s simply about showing the selection panel that you actually have the necessary skills to do the job. As someone who has to read through responses, I can tell you right now that unless you actually address the criteria in the context of examples from your working life, no amount of “selling yourself” will matter.

Responding to selection criteria is not difficult. A few minutes googling will provide you with links to useful advice. If you lack the ability to write an appropriate, consise written response, you probably shouldn’t be applying for the job.

actually everyone isn’t doing it and frankly, as someone who has to sort applications, it’s annoying when people mass apply for jobs with irrelevant junk. they stand out for the wrong reasons as they aren’t tailored to the role or agency.

if you need someone to write your applications to get past the screening process, maybe you should look for another job

devils_advocate11:33 am 19 Mar 13

Don’t use a company. Outsiders don’t know the APS language.

Find someone that is at least one level, preferably two levels above the level you want to apply for, and ask them for their help.

And contrary to post #1, don’t feel bad about getting someone else to write it for you. At the risk of sounding like Lance, everyone else is doing it and you need to do it to in order to keep up. The selection statement just gets you through the culling process, you need to shine in the interview to get the job.

Final advice – don’t put all your eggs in one basket. Once you’ve drafted up a good set of general-purpose criteria, use them for as many jobs as you can and take a flexible approach to what jobs you want. I would suggest applying for a bare minimum of 4 jobs per fortnight, depending on what level you’re at (at EL2 or above the jobs become a bit thin on the ground).

how about writing it yourself so you’re not giving yourself an undeserved advantage over other honest applicants

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