24 January 2013

Simon says we all love the plastic bag ban

| johnboy
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plastic bags

If we really all were enamoured of Simon Corbell’s plastic bag laws one would imagine he wouldn’t need to tell us about it.

A new survey of the use of plastic shopping bags in the ACT has shown that 70% of Canberrans want to see the ban of lightweight plastic bags continue while 66% of people would like the ban to be implemented nationally, Minister for the Environment and Sustainable Development, Simon Corbell said today.

“The interim review of the ban shows that 84% of Canberrans now carry a re-usable bag with them when doing their shopping instead of relying on bags at the counter,” Mr Corbell said.

The Government committed to an interim review of the ban on lightweight shopping bags after a 12 month period of the ban in operation.

A telephone survey of primary shoppers in 600 ACT households was conducted as part of the review and highlighted that the majority of shoppers from every age group supported the ban.

The review evaluated community acceptance, reduction in plastic bag use, environmental outcomes and retailer compliance.

Mr Corbell said a more broad ranging review would take place after two years of the operation of the lightweight plastic bag ban.

“This interim review gives us an important snapshot of the views in the ACT community about the ban, but after another 12 months we will be able to look more closely at trends of plastic bag use, and reductions of bags to landfill,” he said.

“I am pleased to see that during the first 12 months there were no infringements issued to retailers breaching the ban, and I encourage this good compliance behaviour to continue.”

Some might see a total absence of found infringements in less glowing terms.


UPDATE 24/01/13 13:40: Mayor Rattenbury has said he’d like the ban to go further:

“Unfortunately one unintended and perverse outcome of the ban, as it is currently legislated, is the provision of non compostable and thicker plastic bags as a replacement to the banned lightweight plastic type.

Mr Rattenbury said the legislation needs to be improved to ensure that fully compostable plastic bags are the only kind allowed in the ACT.

“In the interim report, 94% of people indicated that they would like all plastic bags to be completely biodegradable, and I’ll be pursuing an amendment to the legislation to make sure this happens.

“A current exemption in the legislation means that retailers can currently give customers compostable lightweight plastic bags for free. Rather than providing these bags retailers are getting around the legislation by simply providing, at a cost to the consumer, thicker non-compostable plastic bags.

“Many of the bags that are called ‘degradable’ simply break into a thousand plastic pieces and never actually biodegrade.

“All in all, these substitutes run the risk of defeating the purpose of the plastic bag ban”, said Mr Rattenbury.

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This is what the “experts” at the Productivity Commission found in 2006:

FINDING 8.7

Based on the evidence available to the Commission, it appears that the Australian, State and Territory Governments do not have a sound case for proceeding with their proposed phase out of plastic retail carry bags. Similarly, there does not appear to be a sound basis for the Victorian Government’s proposed per-unit charge on plastic bags. A cost–benefit study commissioned by the Governments shows that the benefits of a phase out or a per-unit charge would be significantly outweighed by the costs. This is because the policies would penalise most uses of plastic retail carry bags, whereas the potential benefit would only come from the small proportion of bags that are littered. A more cost-effective approach would be to target littering directly.

Source: http://www.pc.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0014/21614/waste.pdf

So, therefore, the ACT Government ignored the best available advice and adopted a policy, the costs of which exceed the benefits.

ACT Government – WINNING!

DWD56 said :

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-01-15/paper-or-plastic-or-deadly-food-borne-pathogens

Hope everyone is washing their re-useable bags.

And yet I’ve been re-using bags and still alive. Shopping bag roulette makes life that little bit more exciting

I tried washing the heavy duty bags when I lived in Canberra, but it turned out shabby, so that was the end of that, so used to buy heavy plastic ones.

Years ago, we used to have the paper bag, whatever happened to them?

Ahh thank god I moved to NSW, and I don’t mean Queabeyan, just love using the plastic bags, I use them for my bin, saves me money, so whats wrong with that, I think there are more inportant things to worry about then the plastic bags.

DWD56 said :

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-01-15/paper-or-plastic-or-deadly-food-borne-pathogens

Hope everyone is washing their re-useable bags.

I tend to eat off plates, so….

Gungahlin Al10:41 am 27 Jan 13

DrKoresh said :

Gungahlin Al said :

How fortunate that we had this thing called an election when someone like Pantsman who disagrees vehemently with everything the current government has done was able to put their name forward as potential alternatives, and see how many people agreed with them… You did nominate didn’t you, Pantsman?

lol, nicely done there, Al.

Cheers!

PantsMan said :

No, I adjusted the percentages of total pop from the ABS to get a total pop over 20. Therefore, they are the correct percentages.

And the Tragic of the Month award goes to…

Good work.

IP

IrishPete said :

PantsMan said :

There are numerous problems with the survey.

Firstly, it was really a ‘push poll’. Rather than asking up front “Do you support the Plastic Bag Ban?”, they asked a few softening-up questions to put the participants in a positive frame of mind regarding the ban, before asking if they supported the ban.

Then there is the issue of it being a telephone poll in a city with the highest proportion of households without a landline (remember Noel Towell’s contribution to the ACT Election?)

Finally, the sample was highly skewed to the elderly (maybe everyone else was waiting in the queue at Wollies Dickson when they rang?). The following is a comparison of the actual adult population of Canberra, versus the people surveyed.

Adult Population Surveyed
Under 25 12%

2%
25-30 11%

3%
31-40 20%

15%
41-50 19%

17%
51-60 16%

24%
61-70 12%

23%
Over 71 10%

16%

So, they basically asked oldies and pensioners with landlines who were home at 7pm on a weeknight!

I thought about posting the ACT’s population distribution, but couldn’t be bothered working it out myself for the adult population. I presume the percentages you’ve quoted are the total population – they’re not going to survey primary school age children, and I don’t know what age their cut off was. Even so, older people were clearly over-represented, although their views were more negative, so including more younger people would probably have change dhe result more in favour of the ban. Remember, of the small number of under-25s they spoke to, 100% supported the ban.

They also phoned on a Saturday.

Perhaps the survey would be better conducted in person at a few randomly selected supermarkets.

IP

No, I adjusted the percentages of total pop from the ABS to get a total pop over 20. Therefore, they are the correct percentages.

PantsMan said :

There are numerous problems with the survey.

Firstly, it was really a ‘push poll’. Rather than asking up front “Do you support the Plastic Bag Ban?”, they asked a few softening-up questions to put the participants in a positive frame of mind regarding the ban, before asking if they supported the ban.

Then there is the issue of it being a telephone poll in a city with the highest proportion of households without a landline (remember Noel Towell’s contribution to the ACT Election?)

Finally, the sample was highly skewed to the elderly (maybe everyone else was waiting in the queue at Wollies Dickson when they rang?). The following is a comparison of the actual adult population of Canberra, versus the people surveyed.

Adult Population Surveyed
Under 25 12%

2%
25-30 11%

3%
31-40 20%

15%
41-50 19%

17%
51-60 16%

24%
61-70 12%

23%
Over 71 10%

16%

So, they basically asked oldies and pensioners with landlines who were home at 7pm on a weeknight!

I thought about posting the ACT’s population distribution, but couldn’t be bothered working it out myself for the adult population. I presume the percentages you’ve quoted are the total population – they’re not going to survey primary school age children, and I don’t know what age their cut off was. Even so, older people were clearly over-represented, although their views were more negative, so including more younger people would probably have change dhe result more in favour of the ban. Remember, of the small number of under-25s they spoke to, 100% supported the ban.

They also phoned on a Saturday.

Perhaps the survey would be better conducted in person at a few randomly selected supermarkets.

IP

It would be interesting to see if there has been a increase in gastro cases – spillage is not such an issue in use once bags but in the green ones which are used over and over….. swab tests anyone.

I like many others used the bags as rubbish bags and I can assure you that bags full of cow bones and beer bottles don’t blow around in the wind.

There are numerous problems with the survey.

Firstly, it was really a ‘push poll’. Rather than asking up front “Do you support the Plastic Bag Ban?”, they asked a few softening-up questions to put the participants in a positive frame of mind regarding the ban, before asking if they supported the ban.

Then there is the issue of it being a telephone poll in a city with the highest proportion of households without a landline (remember Noel Towell’s contribution to the ACT Election?)

Finally, the sample was highly skewed to the elderly (maybe everyone else was waiting in the queue at Wollies Dickson when they rang?). The following is a comparison of the actual adult population of Canberra, versus the people surveyed.

Adult Population Surveyed
Under 25 12% 2%
25-30 11% 3%
31-40 20% 15%
41-50 19% 17%
51-60 16% 24%
61-70 12% 23%
Over 71 10% 16%

So, they basically asked oldies and pensioners with landlines who were home at 7pm on a weeknight!

gooterz said :

Response bias:

If someone identifies as the primary shopper they are more likely to take shopping more seriously and thus spend extra effort using reusable bags.
If a couple split the shopping because its something they don’t like they’d be less likely to bring reusable bags, neither will identify as the primary shopper.

The 4 categories for question 2 are never, some of the time I often forget, most of the time, always.
If you have ever reused a bag you would say most of the time, hardly anyone will say they forget as it implies a mental capacity flaw.

The gender was never asked, meaning those 29 males might just be husky females.

The report fails to account for lies made by the respondents too. You could probably check with the number of uni graduates.

Why were only primary shoppers wanted? You can’t make a claim of total population wants this when the only people targeted are the ones that have to shop the most and thus make more sense to always carry bags.

Does anyone know how many of the old bags are equal to the new ones?

The new ones all have printing and dyes on them. I’m sure that’s eco friendly.

Why was a survey done at all, why not just ask the supermarkets how many bags they’ve sold and how many they used to use. That would cover 1000’s of us in a less biased way.

I agree with you about the shortcomings of the survey and method but you did read how this is an interim report? A full analysis of the bag ban is due 2 years after implementation. I’m assuming it will contain all of the hard data on bag usage rates direct from the supermarkets.

First up, reducing the amount of waste we each produce is an important issue for us all.

Secondly, don’t shoot the messenger (or the survey)

However, I find it interesting in the report that the thicker plastic bags had to be used 4-5 times to have less environmental effect overall and the woven material bags up to 14. There’s a lower volume of plastic in landfill because of the ban but consumer behaviour has to change before there’s a lesser nett damage to the planet.

But I think consumer behaviour is changing. A Canberran’s natural behaviour is to shove something in their pocket or just grab a couple of things without a bag rather than put a, for example, can of deodorant in a single use bag as used to happen.

Overall, this is a good thing and a decade from now, it probably will be national and people will have forgotten the profligate waste that used to happen, except for those of us on the porch reminiscing about the good old days.

Response bias:

If someone identifies as the primary shopper they are more likely to take shopping more seriously and thus spend extra effort using reusable bags.
If a couple split the shopping because its something they don’t like they’d be less likely to bring reusable bags, neither will identify as the primary shopper.

The 4 categories for question 2 are never, some of the time I often forget, most of the time, always.
If you have ever reused a bag you would say most of the time, hardly anyone will say they forget as it implies a mental capacity flaw.

The gender was never asked, meaning those 29 males might just be husky females.

The report fails to account for lies made by the respondents too. You could probably check with the number of uni graduates.

Why were only primary shoppers wanted? You can’t make a claim of total population wants this when the only people targeted are the ones that have to shop the most and thus make more sense to always carry bags.

Does anyone know how many of the old bags are equal to the new ones?

The new ones all have printing and dyes on them. I’m sure that’s eco friendly.

Why was a survey done at all, why not just ask the supermarkets how many bags they’ve sold and how many they used to use. That would cover 1000’s of us in a less biased way.

wildturkeycanoe11:04 pm 25 Jan 13

I find that the re-usable fabric shopping bags are just as biodegradable as plastic. After a while they get a rip or tear, eventually to thew point they just give up. What then, throw them in the bin to end up in landfill? How long does it take for that black rectangular plastic thing at the bottom to decompose? I’d guess a bit longer than the old bin liners we got for free.

Reprobate said :

So… survey says…

63% of respondents were aged 51 or over. Not sure 63% of shoppers I see, or even the population of Canberra, are over 51.

Nearly half of all surveyed already took their own bags before the ban anyway. Or, based on the above, maybe their vinyl nanna wheelie trolleys.

Didn’t notice that, well done.

A few possible causes I can think of:

“primary shoppers” again – the youngesters in the household (including those young adult chilldren) don’t do the shopping; so the survey remains valid;

or, they used landline numbers for the survey, and youngsters are much less likely to have them these days, or they’re out partying all the time and don’t answer, or (like the above answer) mum or dad or gradnma/grandad living in the same house answered the phone. This would probably undermine the survey a bit.

Another possibility is that because they were using landlines, the oldies tended to be home, and the youngsters and slightly less-young were out doing evening and weekend activities – taking the kids to sport, violin lessons etc (unless the servants were doing that for them).

(The report says they phoned on weekday evenings and a saturday.)

But the report shows that support for the ban was strongest amongst the young age groups – 100% of under 25s (though there were very few of them), 67% of 25-40s, 65% of 41-50s, then dropping substantially. So by including too many older people in the survey, the results may have been biased AGAINST the ban.

IP

Antagonist said :

IrishPete said :

Wondering about the survey everyone? As I suspected and suggested in an earlier post, the survey sample was 71% female. It was “primary shoppers” in each household.

IP

Not even close to a representative sample. Abject failure.

So you think if they’d asked people who don’t do the grocery shopping that the results of a survey about grocery shopper’s habits would have been more accurate? Interesting logic there….

Gungahlin Al said :

How fortunate that we had this thing called an election when someone like Pantsman who disagrees vehemently with everything the current government has done was able to put their name forward as potential alternatives, and see how many people agreed with them… You did nominate didn’t you, Pantsman?

lol, nicely done there, Al.

Postalgeek said :

…Personally I’m always thrilled when Dizzy shows up. He has a wonderful knack for animating threads.

When Dizzy Gillespie blew his own trumpet, it was worth listening to. He was a genius.

Gungahlin Al1:50 pm 25 Jan 13

PantsMan said :

Maybe this Government could grow the f&^k up and start focusing on real issues like:

* we are further $380m in debt EACH YEAR;
* they have just sacked the Under Treasurer and now there is none;
* the health system is the worst in the country and has senior officials illegally fabricating data;
* they are proposing to undertake the largest infrastructure build in ACT Government history, despite having stuffed up everything else they’ve ever attempted.

If Katy and the other f*^ktards want to be in power so much, maybe they should GROW UP and start making some grown up decisions like what real adults make, not waste their time and our money having the 24,000 ACT Public Servants faffing around with sh#it like this.

How fortunate that we had this thing called an election when someone like Pantsman who disagrees vehemently with everything the current government has done was able to put their name forward as potential alternatives, and see how many people agreed with them… You did nominate didn’t you, Pantsman?

wildturkeycanoe said :

I’m not too fussed about the content of the discussion but how can a government justify it’s policy with results that say 66% of 0.16% of Canberrans surveyed want plastic bags banned nationally. So, 0.1 of a percent of the population represents a “majority of shoppers from every age group”???? I hope they didn’t waste too much taxpayer money on this, especially when the government has a department dedicated to doing surveys and the like – ABS!!

Yep, the survey would only be representative if they surveyed every person in Canberra and they all agreed with whatever you reckon.

chewy14 said :

gooterz said :

600 of the 600 surveyed also wanted flying cars.

One has to wonder how the questions were worded and if people would admit to wanting something that the government sees as bad.

I’m sure if police pulled people over and asked them if they were speeding instead of using a speed gun, a good number would say they weren’t.

I’ve linked the survey previously in this thread and Pantsman has done so again. Can people at least read it before commenting anymore?

No.

Any survey whose results differ from my personal beliefs is obviously indication of some sort of nefarious IMMORAL conspiracy with the GUMMINT and the PLASTIC BAG MANUFACTURING INDUSTRY and quite likely the ILLUMINATI.

gooterz said :

600 of the 600 surveyed also wanted flying cars.

One has to wonder how the questions were worded and if people would admit to wanting something that the government sees as bad.

I’m sure if police pulled people over and asked them if they were speeding instead of using a speed gun, a good number would say they weren’t.

I’ve linked the survey previously in this thread and Pantsman has done so again. Can people at least read it before commenting anymore?

So… survey says…

63% of respondents were aged 51 or over. Not sure 63% of shoppers I see, or even the population of Canberra, are over 51.

Nearly half of all surveyed already took their own bags before the ban anyway. Or, based on the above, maybe their vinyl nanna wheelie trolleys.

Antagonist said :

IrishPete said :

Wondering about the survey everyone? As I suspected and suggested in an earlier post, the survey sample was 71% female. It was “primary shoppers” in each household.

IP

Not even close to a representative sample. Abject failure.

Why’s that? Should the sample also have included people with servants who shop for them?

Before you do a survey, you decide who comprises your target group. Primary shoppers seems reasonable for this. An alternative, probably more acceptable to you, would have been to survey all adults, not just primary shoppers, and ask them how often they shop in relevant shops and how many bags they use each time etc. The questionnaire used for this survey looks very quick and simple, which probably helped keep the cost down and the response rate up (interviewer would have said “this will only take two minutes” etc.) One with more complicated questioning would have taken longer and reduced response rate.

But it’s odd that the interviewer wasn’t allowed to ASK their gender (see the questionnaire at the end of the report) – did they assume it from the sound of their voice, or from subtle aspects of their responses? Ever spoken to someone on the phone and got their gender wrong? I have. But I suppose it’s not very common.

IP

IrishPete said :

johnboy said :

I know it’s hard for you to believe Mr G but you don’t have a god given right to be a complete cock.

that’s a bit harsh JB – why pick on him and not all the other ratbags (pun intended) in this conversation, and throughout RiotAct?

IP

There’s history. Personally I’m always thrilled when Dizzy shows up. He has a wonderful knack for animating threads.

IrishPete said :

Wondering about the survey everyone? As I suspected and suggested in an earlier post, the survey sample was 71% female. It was “primary shoppers” in each household.

IP

Not even close to a representative sample. Abject failure.

kakosi said :

What ban? Has everyone developed a case of “plastic bag blindness”?

Instead of the lightweight biodegradable bags woolies used to supply, now you get heavy duty non-biodegradable bags. And they go through thousands these each week. This is a step backwards and nothing to be proud of.
.

the previous bags were not biodegradable. Though I agree the new bags are worse in some ways, though they would not be if people re-used them (multiple times) like they were supposed to.

wildturkeycanoe said :

I’m not too fussed about the content of the discussion but how can a government justify it’s policy with results that say 66% of 0.16% of Canberrans surveyed want plastic bags banned nationally. So, 0.1 of a percent of the population represents a “majority of shoppers from every age group”???? I hope they didn’t waste too much taxpayer money on this, especially when the government has a department dedicated to doing surveys and the like – ABS!!

Take a deep breath and then perhaps read up a bit on sampling before having another rant.

Wondering about the survey everyone? As I suspected and suggested in an earlier post, the survey sample was 71% female. It was “primary shoppers” in each household.

IP

bundah said :

Ah Mr G’s back ooh how i’ve missed him,joy bliss!

Don’t you think it just the tiniest bit suspicious that Mr G and Captain RAAF always disappear for months on end and then tend to reappear within days of each other.

Rather than believing that they are the same person, I like to think that perhaps they are a couple who spend time away from the internet together to refresh their souls and renew and reinvigorate their relationship.

johnboy said :

I know it’s hard for you to believe Mr G but you don’t have a god given right to be a complete cock.

that’s a bit harsh JB – why pick on him and not all the other ratbags (pun intended) in this conversation, and throughout RiotAct?

IP

600 of the 600 surveyed also wanted flying cars.

One has to wonder how the questions were worded and if people would admit to wanting something that the government sees as bad.

I’m sure if police pulled people over and asked them if they were speeding instead of using a speed gun, a good number would say they weren’t.

screaming banshee11:47 pm 24 Jan 13

Mr Gillespie said :

Endry (#56)

I don’t care if the bags were 1 cent each. It is the fact that the charge is there for the customer, it appears on the receipt, which is immoral and offends the sensibilities of any person who genuinely cares about the money that they rightfully earn.

Just so we’re clear on this, you’re saying people that steal money should have to pay for their bags. How do you propose such a system would be administered?

Ah Mr G’s back ooh how i’ve missed him,joy bliss!

Madam Cholet8:54 pm 24 Jan 13

switch said :

Madam Cholet said :

I also choose to delay running my air con as long as I can to ensure that I don’t have higher than necessary electric bills, and that I’m not sucking electric that I really don’t need.

False economy, and probably worse for the environment. Makes more sense to open up your well-insulated house to the early morning cool air, then run the aircon when it starts to get too hot outside to leave the doors/windows open. This way the aircon is not working so hard keeping the house at a sensible temperature, rather than working flat out to cool down a hothouse.

Jeez. I didn’t feel the need to give you an entire run down of my day in the heat, but FYI, I do keep the house closed once it gets hot, and I run the air con at about 26 degrees for a max of about 2 hours a day….only slightly older the ambient temp. I also have a ventilation system in the roof that works to cool our house overnight so we do not over use the air con. I also installed filing fans for the same reason. Is that enough for you?

kakosi said :

What ban? Has everyone developed a case of “plastic bag blindness”?

Instead of the lightweight biodegradable bags woolies used to supply, now you get heavy duty non-biodegradable bags. And they go through thousands these each week. This is a step backwards and nothing to be proud of.

I’m surprised by the 70 percent satisfaction figure quoted, love to know how many were in the survey sample and what the actual questions were.

Missed the 600 shoppers survey number in the article. The only thing to ask now is what suburbs, what age group, and what household income?

What ban? Has everyone developed a case of “plastic bag blindness”?

Instead of the lightweight biodegradable bags woolies used to supply, now you get heavy duty non-biodegradable bags. And they go through thousands these each week. This is a step backwards and nothing to be proud of.

I’m surprised by the 70 percent satisfaction figure quoted, love to know how many were in the survey sample and what the actual questions were.

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd6:07 pm 24 Jan 13

Mr Gillespie said :

Endry (#56)

I don’t care if the bags were 1 cent each. It is the fact that the charge is there for the customer, it appears on the receipt, which is immoral and offends the sensibilities of any person who genuinely cares about the money that they rightfully earn.

Comic & Gamer Nerd (#54), I know more than enough that (a) over the border, customers aren’t charged for their shopping bags, and (b) in the ACT, customers weren’t charged for their shopping bags. End of argument

So you admit you know zero about retail and retail hidden costs?

My only observation on this is that there are a lot fewer plastic bags lying all over the place these days.

Maybe this Government could grow the f&^k up and start focusing on real issues like:

* we are further $380m in debt EACH YEAR;
* they have just sacked the Under Treasurer and now there is none;
* the health system is the worst in the country and has senior officials illegally fabricating data;
* they are proposing to undertake the largest infrastructure build in ACT Government history, despite having stuffed up everything else they’ve ever attempted.

If Katy and the other f*^ktards want to be in power so much, maybe they should GROW UP and start making some grown up decisions like what real adults make, not waste their time and our money having the 24,000 ACT Public Servants faffing around with sh#it like this.

wildturkeycanoe5:53 pm 24 Jan 13

I’m not too fussed about the content of the discussion but how can a government justify it’s policy with results that say 66% of 0.16% of Canberrans surveyed want plastic bags banned nationally. So, 0.1 of a percent of the population represents a “majority of shoppers from every age group”???? I hope they didn’t waste too much taxpayer money on this, especially when the government has a department dedicated to doing surveys and the like – ABS!!

Mr Gillespie said :

Endry (#56)

I don’t care if the bags were 1 cent each. It is the fact that the charge is there for the customer, it appears on the receipt, which is immoral and offends the sensibilities of any person who genuinely cares about the money that they rightfully earn.

So what other items do you believe that shops should give away free? Bread? Milk? Petrol?

I can see a few other reasonably sensible reasons for looking at repealing the ban…but your incredible belief that you have an entitlement to free items from shops is not one of them.

I particularly like the way you, on occasion, claim that denial of free bags is a human rights infringement!

In fact the only reason I really endorse the ban is because it causes such fits of rage in you.

And that amuses me

Mr Gillespie said :

Endry (#56)

I don’t care if the bags were 1 cent each. It is the fact that the charge is there for the customer, it appears on the receipt, which is immoral and offends the sensibilities of any person who genuinely cares about the money that they rightfully earn.

Comic & Gamer Nerd (#54), I know more than enough that (a) over the border, customers aren’t charged for their shopping bags, and (b) in the ACT, customers weren’t charged for their shopping bags. End of argument

Researchers last year discovered a very simple form of life form that could survive where life wasn’t believed to be able to survive.

Not only is that minuscule life form not nearly as small and simple as you are, but I suspect even it, despite been able to survive in ammonia, would keel over if forced to survive with your bulls**t.

Tetranitrate5:09 pm 24 Jan 13

The cost of the bags was no doubt included in the cost of groceries before, but the average cost per bag would doubtlessly round to zero.
From looking at sites that cater to small businesses, I could order the old-style thin plastic bags right now for about 2.4 cents a bag just ordering a 10kg pack.

Woolies and Coles have massive market power and were probably paying much much less, they’d be contracting to buy them by the ton and would probably be the main customers of whoever they were dealing with. For all intents and purposes the bags may as well have been free before the ban – the cost of all the plastic bags you’d have used for a $100+ shop were probably less than the cost of a single re-usable bag now.

Mr Gillespie5:00 pm 24 Jan 13

Endry (#56)

I don’t care if the bags were 1 cent each. It is the fact that the charge is there for the customer, it appears on the receipt, which is immoral and offends the sensibilities of any person who genuinely cares about the money that they rightfully earn.

Comic & Gamer Nerd (#54), I know more than enough that (a) over the border, customers aren’t charged for their shopping bags, and (b) in the ACT, customers weren’t charged for their shopping bags. End of argument

Pork Hunt said :

Thumper’s mate’s mate from the pub told me that supermarkets in the ACT don’t pay electricity or rent either and if that cost was factored into the price of groceries, prices would go through the roof. Then where will you be with your ” free” bags…?

Maybe not directly in some cases but it would be included in the lease.
They do pay for energy though and you’ll note supermarkets have recently installed enclosed fridges/freezers or retrofitted thermal blinds to try and reduce the refrigeration costs that are said to be the most expensive thing for a supermarket.

15c CENTS FOR A BAG??!?!?!? $30 DOLARRS FOR SPEEDOS????!! . Maybe I’ll just take a f***ing bag to the shops like I take my f***ing bathers to the pool.

Mr Gillespie said :

Jim Jones #47, that argument won’t work because remember when we didn’t have the plastic bag ban? Back in those days, we only paid for the groceries, not the bags.

Thumper’s mate’s mate from the pub told me that supermarkets in the ACT don’t pay electricity or rent either and if that cost was factored into the price of groceries, prices would go through the roof. Then where will you be with your ” free” bags…?

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd4:26 pm 24 Jan 13

Mr Gillespie said :

Jim Jones #47, that argument won’t work because remember when we didn’t have the plastic bag ban? Back in those days, we only paid for the groceries, not the bags.

DrKoresh #46, Canberra is a laughing stock to interstate visitors, who find they have to pay for their shopping bags.

Can you tell me everything you know about including costs for cheap or free things into other items?

Mr Gillespie said :

Jim Jones #47, that argument won’t work because remember when we didn’t have the plastic bag ban? Back in those days, we only paid for the groceries, not the bags.

DrKoresh #46, Canberra is a laughing stock to interstate visitors, who find they have to pay for their shopping bags.

And in turn, you are the laughing stock of Canberra. I don’t really give a toss about out-of-towners, the amount of ignorant scorn poured upon Canberra by angry, gibbering morons from other states means they can go hang for all I care.

More Government lies.

I have hundres of Coles plastic bags, I’ll sell them for 5c each to the first greenie to pm me.

I have no air con so I will carbon trade and use as many plastic bags as like.

If you, Mr G, wish to stand for election in the Senate (that way you can change the whole rotten system from within) in the upcoming federal election; I will stand out the front of a polling booth and hand out your how to vote cards rain, hail or shine.

I bought a bucket at the reject shop. It cost 99 cents. i noted that at the checkout, I could purchase a plastic bag to take home my rejected purchase – for 99 cents.

Mr Gillespie4:05 pm 24 Jan 13

c_c™ said :

……15c – pay up I say. If you want to avoid it, then buy a set of reusable bags.

Avoid it? Avoid what exactly?

Sounds like you contradicted yourself there pal.

Johnnyboy (#44), the Greens found out the hard way it’s not their God-given right to be a cock either, when they lost 3 of their 4 seats.

Mr Gillespie4:03 pm 24 Jan 13

Jim Jones #47, that argument won’t work because remember when we didn’t have the plastic bag ban? Back in those days, we only paid for the groceries, not the bags.

DrKoresh #46, Canberra is a laughing stock to interstate visitors, who find they have to pay for their shopping bags.

Mr Gillespie said :

It is IMMORAL that shoppers are charged any extra just to carry their groceries home.

How?

Shouldn’t you have to pay for things that you get from a shop?

dibs said :

The ONLY poeple to benefit from the platic bag ban are big corporations like Woolworths

15 cents a bag, pure profit of 12 cents.

Woolworths are profiteering from this ban.
I now have a cupboard full of plastic bags that dont get reused or recycled…every time a quick trip to my local shops costs me 45 cents extra due to bags (yes, I like ALOT of other people forget to take the bags out of the cupboard to re-use).

The thicker plastic bag that is stored in my cupboard eventually makes its way to the garbage bin, where it ultimately ends up in land fill anyway. Thanks Woolworths, not only are you making a profit you are exacerbating our landfill problems and laffing all the way to the bank with it !

And before anyone jumps on my view, just so you know, I have now purchased a granny trolly so no more bags for me! woolies or otherwise

*cue laughter*

Mr Gillespie said :

Mr Rattenbury, can you promise us that your new biodegradeable plastic bags will NOT incur a fee?

I will NOT pay for my bags. Not 15 cents. Not 5 cents. NOTHING.

It is IMMORAL that shoppers are charged any extra just to carry their groceries home.

Please rethink this legislation from the point of view of the little people on the street like us. Not to line your pockets with profits from thick, environmentally unfriendly bags.

Either it’s FREE biodegradeable bags, paper bags, OR repeal this legislation.

The Greens lost nearly all their seats, and I’d say this is one of the main reasons why. You think I’m a joke ay? Well I’ll tell you something. Seriously — this nuisance legislation is nothing more than a joke.

Biodegradable does not mean environmentally friendly.

There are still environmental inputs into producing those bags and they remain largely disposable, hence the inputs remain disproportionate to the lifecycle of the bag.

15c – pay up I say. If you want to avoid it, then buy a set of reusable bags.

I know it’s hard for you to believe Mr G but you don’t have a god given right to be a complete cock.

Mr Gillespie3:38 pm 24 Jan 13

Mr Rattenbury, can you promise us that your new biodegradeable plastic bags will NOT incur a fee?

I will NOT pay for my bags. Not 15 cents. Not 5 cents. NOTHING.

It is IMMORAL that shoppers are charged any extra just to carry their groceries home.

Please rethink this legislation from the point of view of the little people on the street like us. Not to line your pockets with profits from thick, environmentally unfriendly bags.

Either it’s FREE biodegradeable bags, paper bags, OR repeal this legislation.

The Greens lost nearly all their seats, and I’d say this is one of the main reasons why. You think I’m a joke ay? Well I’ll tell you something. Seriously — this nuisance legislation is nothing more than a joke.

The ONLY poeple to benefit from the platic bag ban are big corporations like Woolworths

15 cents a bag, pure profit of 12 cents.

Woolworths are profiteering from this ban.
I now have a cupboard full of plastic bags that dont get reused or recycled…every time a quick trip to my local shops costs me 45 cents extra due to bags (yes, I like ALOT of other people forget to take the bags out of the cupboard to re-use).

The thicker plastic bag that is stored in my cupboard eventually makes its way to the garbage bin, where it ultimately ends up in land fill anyway. Thanks Woolworths, not only are you making a profit you are exacerbating our landfill problems and laffing all the way to the bank with it !

And before anyone jumps on my view, just so you know, I have now purchased a granny trolly so no more bags for me! woolies or otherwise

Madam Cholet said :

I also choose to delay running my air con as long as I can to ensure that I don’t have higher than necessary electric bills, and that I’m not sucking electric that I really don’t need.

False economy, and probably worse for the environment. Makes more sense to open up your well-insulated house to the early morning cool air, then run the aircon when it starts to get too hot outside to leave the doors/windows open. This way the aircon is not working so hard keeping the house at a sensible temperature, rather than working flat out to cool down a hothouse.

neanderthalsis2:14 pm 24 Jan 13

Madam Cholet said :

I don’t understand all these people who say they have bags piling up. I have my own shopping bags, and even keep one in my work bag in case I need to go out and make purchases. So I don’t need to buy any. Obviously in Canberra the 15c is not that much of a deterrent. I also use my hands on occasion to carry things to the car and put them in the boot where there are bags awaiting. I buy bio-degradeable bin liners.

It is often the case that I go in to buy a bottle of milk (and not take a bag) and leave with 17 other items, hence the need for a 15c environmentally unsound lump of processed oil. I don’t have a handbag in which to store my rain-forest certified organic free trade hemp bag, so I happily pay my 15c laziness/forgetfulness toll and head home to put the new bag in with his friends.

Biodegradable bags are, contrary to popular opinion and possibly common-sense, worse for the environment than non-degradable ones are. It stems from the fact that a biodegradable bag quickly degrade, often before it gets to landfill. When this happens, it releases carbon and other greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. A run of the mill plastic bag will not degrade for a long time, but once it’s in a landfill it’s not likely to be going anywhere else. There are techniques (whether or not we use them here, i don’t know) whereby the gases produced in a decomposing landfill can be harnessed and used to supply energy.

Sorry, it’s just frustrating to hear so many, presumably well-meaning people, bemoan the danger and wastage of non-degradable bags; in fact the opposite is true.

Chop71 said

“…and now we have heavy petrochemical bags.
it may not be f***ing rocket science, but are we better off?”

Yes.
http://www.sustainability.vic.gov.au/resources/documents/lca_shopping_bags_full_report%5B2%5D.pdf

PantsMan said :

I looked in the contracts register (www.procurement.act.gov.au) and there is no contract for an opinion survey on the Plastic Bag Ban.

That just means it cost less than $25 000.

Madam Cholet1:39 pm 24 Jan 13

I don’t understand all these people who say they have bags piling up. I have my own shopping bags, and even keep one in my work bag in case I need to go out and make purchases. So I don’t need to buy any. Obviously in Canberra the 15c is not that much of a deterrent. I also use my hands on occasion to carry things to the car and put them in the boot where there are bags awaiting. I buy bio-degradeable bin liners.

When are people going to start owning the problems that we as humans have created. It’s not about the nasty government wanting to take things away from us, it’s just about trying to be more responsible with gentle nudges to change our collective behaviour.

I also choose to delay running my air con as long as I can to ensure that I don’t have higher than necessary electric bills, and that I’m not sucking electric that I really don’t need. Regulating your own behaviour is allowed. We don’t need the government to do it for us all of the time. Because you all moan when they do.

Postalgeek said :

Jesus Christ, it’s not f***ing rocket science. It wasn’t just about reducing bags in infill. It was about bags not staying in tips.

A shop gives you items in a thin bag, you take the object out and throw the bag out = empty lightweight bag blowing out of tip

Shop gives you a heavier bag= bag more likely to stay in tip

Buy/recycle bag to put rubbish in = bag weighted and more likely to stay in tip

If everyone recycled their light plastic bags and used them as bin liners maybe it wouldn’t have been as such of a problem, but they didn’t. Instead we had light-weight plastic bags blowing all over the place. This is why we can’t have nice things.

…and now we have heavy petrochemical bags.
it may not be f***ing rocket science, but are we better off?

chewy14 said :

69% don’t want the ban widened to include all plastic bags but 94% want bags to be biodegradable.

So 69% don’t want non-biodegradable bags banned while at the same time 94% want bags to be biodegradable. We have to assume that a fairly large proportion of the survey participants think that retailers are going to change to biodegradable as a community service.

Haven’t bothered looking at the full survey report, but interesting that the media release refers to “primary shoppers”. Presumably that’s the organised member of the household who goes to the supermarket with a list, not the casual shopper who buys some bread and milk on the way home from work.

But I’m all in favour of the ban, and in time we’ll get used to it and carry a bag with us. Or shops will start giving us free promotional paper bags, like they do in Ireland.

The ban would have had numerous aims, and plastic bags in landfill would only have been one. Plastic bags blowing around streets, in waterways etc. would have been the main one.

Now that you have to buy your binliners, that is a price-sensitive transaction – you won’t waste them, and you may even start to look for biodegradable ones. Many of my free bags (which I still get in NSW) have holes in them by the time they get home and are no use for lining bins.

The shops could possibly have headed the ban off at the pass if they’d switched to biodegradable bags ages ago.

I live in NSW and can’t wait for the ban to infect us here.

Next stop, a container deposit scheme. How about it Shane and Simon? Does it really matter if Queanbeyan and Yass residents abuse it by taking their bottles and cans into the ACT to get money back that they didn’t pay in the first place? Let the manufacturers sort that problem out themselves – they created it

IP

Jivrashia said :

66% of people would like the ban to be implemented nationally,

Since when did we acquire that many tossers tree-huggers in Canberra?

That’s not how I read it.
I think it’s more a case of, “If we have a ban, then so should everyone else”.

66% of people would like the ban to be implemented nationally,

Gees, I hope not. We now get all our bin-liner bags from relatives in other parts of Australia, who are only too pleased to give them away!

66% of people would like the ban to be implemented nationally,

Since when did we acquire that many tossers tree-huggers in Canberra?

The report and survey are on the Environment website if anyone wants to have a look.

http://www.environment.act.gov.au/waste/plastic_bags/interim_report

Support for the bag ban at 58%.

Interesting to see that the main reason given for their answer of supporting the ban or not was 53% for environmental concerns (important to reduce litter).
Second highest at 22% being the ban is the wrong approach and does nothing.
Third at 18% I now have to buy more bin liners
Fourth at 14% free plastic bags were more convenient.

69% don’t want the ban widened to include all plastic bags but 94% want bags to be biodegradeable.

I’ll be keen to read the final report to see the overall effect the ban has had on bag usage. Some hard data rather than survey data would be good to see.

Maybe it depends on your lifestyle. If I walk to work I won’t bring shopping bags but then I might drop into the supermarket afterwards. I’m caught without a bag every week but generally I don’t need one so I don’t carry it.

The ban motivates me to keep shopping bags by the door and in my car but I just don’t reuse them like I should.

Good policy is slightly different from a good idea.

Jesus Christ, it’s not f***ing rocket science. It wasn’t just about reducing bags in infill. It was about bags not staying in tips.

A shop gives you items in a thin bag, you take the object out and throw the bag out = empty lightweight bag blowing out of tip

Shop gives you a heavier bag= bag more likely to stay in tip

Buy/recycle bag to put rubbish in = bag weighted and more likely to stay in tip

If everyone recycled their light plastic bags and used them as bin liners maybe it wouldn’t have been as such of a problem, but they didn’t. Instead we had light-weight plastic bags blowing all over the place. This is why we can’t have nice things.

Late January and now they are back at work spinning and stuffing everything before them.

I looked in the contracts register (www.procurement.act.gov.au) and there is no contract for an opinion survey on the Plastic Bag Ban.

Maybe Simon asked all his mates in the Labor Party?

Johnboy, seriously, could you put a call in to the Media Advisor and demand a copy of the survey?

just ban rubbish and we wouldn’t need to ba plastic bags

HiddenDragon11:56 am 24 Jan 13

“If we really all were enamoured of Simon Corbell’s plastic bag laws one would imagine he wouldn’t need to tell us about it.” Hard to argue with that, and to which I would add: “If we really all were enamoured of the plastic bag laws, the Greens may not have copped quite such a walloping in last year’s election.”

Doubtless there were many factors at play in the Greens’ poor result last year, but I feel that, for many voters, the plastic bag ban would have been symbolic of a style of governing which is overly intrusive – without compelling need – into the daily lives of Canberrans and which, in the process, wastes public resources and political capital while other far more pressing needs are neglected or given insufficient priority. On the latter point, I hope that Simon is spending very little of our money on plastic bag police, and I really don’t care if there are still a few shops in this town which occasionally issue bags that are a few microns too thin. I will go on, as I have for quite some time, using my old green supermarket bags and recycled plastic bags – and buying bin liners.

Trimega said :

Plastic bag bans are stupid. I fail to see how making me pay for plastic bin liners is any more eco friendly than using plastic shopping bags. It’s a rort by plastic manufacturers and supermarkets!

This assumes that every person re-uses 100% of the plastic bags they get at the shop. It stops the ‘leakage’ – people do not throw out the bags they buy.

And for people who complain they are now using thicker plastic (DJs) bags to line their bins – what were you doing with them before? Probably just storing them away in the cupboard or maybe every now and again throwing out a big bunch of them. Its not like you are now ‘wasting’ those bags, actually you are now reusing them.

Gungahlin Al11:27 am 24 Jan 13

“If we really all were enamoured of Simon Corbell’s plastic bag laws one would imagine he wouldn’t need to tell us about it.”

I think the responses here are clear evidence why the release was needed – so those complaining can realise that they are in a shrinking minority. Meanwhile, the rest of us have adapted and moved on. And are using/dumping far fewer plastic bags.

Just buy fish regularly, you get a free bag with that.

muscledude_oz10:39 am 24 Jan 13

I can’t see how this is reducing plastic bag waste at the tip. People have simply switched to buying plastic bags to replace the free ones they received in order to have bin liners in the kitchen. I know that since the ban came in I have bought three large boxes of bags from Costco.

And doesn’t that so-called poll sound a bit suss to you? “70% of Canberrans support the ban”. A nice round figure, eh? It is all the more intriguing when you realise that since the ban came in we have had an ACT election where The Greens – who forced the ban – were almost completely wiped out.

Plastic bag bans are stupid. I fail to see how making me pay for plastic bin liners is any more eco friendly than using plastic shopping bags. It’s a rort by plastic manufacturers and supermarkets!

crackerpants10:21 am 24 Jan 13

I was in favour of the ban…but disturbingly, we now seem to be lining our bins (including the little ones in bedrooms/bathrooms) with bigger, thicker bags – the ones from DJs, clothing stores etc.

And if I pop out to get more goceries than will fit in my handbag, and I’ve forgotten a greenbag, I usually swing through DJs or somewhere where I know I’ll get a plastic bag first.

PLEASE, for god’s sake, no more plastic bag posts! I thought we’d left them for good back in 2012.

Whilst in Adelaide I needed to pay for bags, but could not receive a logical answer as to why I am not FORCED to purchase vegetable bags.

66% less bags (that use 10 times the plastic) = we put more into landfill than we ever were.

i love the plastic bag ban…way back in uni days i worked as a check-out chick at coles and HATED the waste of plastic bags. people coming in and demanding only 1 soft drink bottle in a bag or stealing huge piles of them for god knows what reason. it’s just so wasteful. western europe has banned plastic bags (well charged for them) for over 15 years – we were way behind on this

I like how everyone assumes that if the supermarkets give you a plastic bag it is ‘free’. You reckon Coles doesnt cost the 10,000 bags it used to distribute every day?

I dont understand how people have more plastic bags than before – I have far less, have almost used up my previous stockpile.

Mav said :

What a load of rot the plastic bag ban is. I have more plastic bags now than I ever had before the only difference is I now have to purchase them.

Same.

Conan of Cooma9:50 am 24 Jan 13

(And before anyone jumps up and down in indignation, I use hessian bags that I keep in the car when shopping)

Living in a primitive place like Cooma we are still permitted to use plastic bags – It’s fantastic! I don’t need to pay for tiny bin liners for the bins in the bathrooms/toilets, I don’t need to buy garbage bags for when I force the kids to consolidate and dispose of the dog crap in the backyard, AND I can fill them with my recyclables when I do big tip runs, as they are happily accepted.

Correct utilisation results in a saving of time and money with the threat of the death of whales. Kind of like dealign with the Japanese.

Ah, has there ever been a more misguided feelgood policy.

If we are to do away with plastic bags then completely ban them, not have the current ridiculous situation where you can buy big, thick, heavy bags for 15 cents each, thus ensuring that plastic bags will be hanging around in landfill, etc for the next 100 years.

(And before anyone jumps up and down in indignation, I use hessian bags that I keep in the car when shopping)

I love the new thick bags, you can fit more stuff in and they don’t break. Don’t know about how good they are for the environment though.

Have they actually released the questions and results of this survey? It might be right, but it doesn’t really fit with what I see when I go shopping.
If 84% of people are taking reusable bags with them, then surely the overall amount of bags being used has dropped dramatically.

I’m concerned about the welfare of both Mr G & Henry BG.Suffocated by plastic bags perhaps?

What a load of rot the plastic bag ban is. I have more plastic bags now than I ever had before the only difference is I now have to purchase them, which is what the intent was all along from the big supermarket retailers. They now make a profit on selling plastic bags rather than giving them away and look at how there is a whole new industry around making plastic bags for sale in large quantities. Check out the number of different manufacturers offerings on the supermarket shelves for plastic bags.

Plastic bag usage has not changed in our household as we still use plastic bags in our waste bins the same way we use to with the free ones from the supermarkets.

Ah, has there ever been a more misguided feel-good policy.

Solar feed-in tariffs?

Did Simon release the full survey? Typical scamming from Labor/Greens.

Johnboy, could you use your powers of persuasion to obtain the full survey from Simon and post it on the RA for us all to read?

neanderthalsis9:12 am 24 Jan 13

The perverse thing seems to be that I now seem to have a greater stockpile of plastic bags than I did in the halcyon days before the ban. I now buy bin liners for my bins instead of using the formerly free bags and when I do get plastic bags, even the 15c jobbies from the occasional purchase where green bags are forgotten, I stockpile them until their storage cylinder is full then use them for rubbish rather than reuse for groceries.

Mr G, come on down!!!

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