10 June 2010

Speed Limits and Roadworks

| glennmatthew
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With so many major roadworks still happening in the Territory, I wanted to bring up the topic of speed limits.

I had the pleasure of driving 40km/h along the Barry Dr roadworks, to have cars fly past me doing 60+. I checked, and sure enough everyone except for myself committed an offense worth at least 3 points and a few hundred dollars. This seems to happen at every set of roadworks I’ve travelled through in Canberra, especially GDE during non-peak hours.

So what’s the point? And why do I feel as though I’m creating a traffic hazard, because I get tail-gated and abused, when everyone else is committing an offense? (By rights, a P-plater doing 70 in these zones should have their licence suspended for 3 months.)

I support and agree with the protection of our workers, by sticking to the 40km/h limits through their workplace. Would it be feasible to revert these sections to something “more reasonable” during non-work hours, such as 50 or 60km/h?

What does everyone else think of this issue?

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Very Busy said :

lrende01 said :

….and you’ve forgotten the most important rule of all; if there is a bus ahead of you, you MUST get infront of it at all cost, even if the bus is keeping up with the traffic. If the bus is in the left lane and you need to turn left you MUST get past it, cut it off to get youself back in the left lane, and then slam your brakes on to make your left turn. This is most important because you would never get back the half of a second that you’ve saved.

Umm that’s what a lot of buses do to us?

It pisses me off when I get idiot Canberra drivers tailgating me when I’m doing 40 in a roadworks zone. Equally pisses me off when I get to the end of the roadworks and there is no sign letting me know that I can now do the normal limit. Case in point, try driving south on Kent St Deakin past the new office complex, no signs indicating the end of roadworks or the normal limit. I do the right thing by these workers, the least they can do is put a little effort into making sure the signs are right.

Agree with Gerry and Woody, but it’s no consolation being dead right if you finish up with a bum full of Kenworth while doing the right thing and keeping to the posted limit (which is what I’ve managed to do in my 40 years of driving without a traffic offence). What’s required IMO is a bit more oversight to help ensure that signage is appropriate in the first place and then policing to enforce.

Should also note that it is not just an ACT problem – recall a trip from Canberra to Central Coast and back last year encountering roadworks everywhere including a good part of F3 down to the Hawkesbury River with signage at 60 or 80, but absolutely no enforcement (and all sorts of traffic incl B doubles hurtling past and boring up behind at and over the usual 110 limit), only to encounter a police radar at roadworks on a secondary street in my Canberra suburb a minute away from home.

glennmatthew said :

Did anyone notice that most of Barry Dr is now at 60km/h for the section of roadworks that are almost complete. Yay.

Random off topic Q.

Is the bus lane going to be a transit lane too ? T2 or whatever they call it

Roadworks signs and altered speed limits are also there because the road conditions have changed, not just for the additional safety of the workers for the 6-8 hours they are present on site. By all means remain immature and speed ‘after hours’ and use whatever foolhardy excuse you like – but don’t be surprised when you come up tailgating behind a driver like me and receive the ‘foot off the accelerator’ response (highly recommended), which will simply get worse for you the closer you get…

+1 to WMC’s (as-usual well-formed argument)

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

3. Whether or not other people get caught shouldn’t have any bearing on whether you continue to do the right thing or not. Don’t let the f*ckers drag you down to their level.

Tailgated by an angry big truck in the 40 zone under the overhead bridgeworks on Yamba Drive at Mawson/ O’Malley.

The signs on Yamba Drive southbound between Justinian and Kitchener Streets (associated with the work well down the road at TCH) have been causing problems for months during and after work hours, but it appears that it has only been in the last few weeks that they have actually been required to facilitate safe (and presumably very occasional) access to the hospital site via the driveway under construction near the corner of Kitchener.

Amazed that signage is up to the contractors to decide and there is apparently no regular oversight by TAMS or whoever is responsible for road safety. Wait until someone gets badly hurt or killed and the Territory is sued.

glennmatthew11:08 pm 18 Jun 10

Did anyone notice that most of Barry Dr is now at 60km/h for the section of roadworks that are almost complete. Yay.

georgesgenitals9:46 am 17 Jun 10

Jim Jones said :

shelby64 said :

just have to laugh………… all you bagging canberra drivers are in fact also canberra drivers lol….. end of story, from a fellow canberra driver/rider..(motorised, no pedal)

That’s pretty crappy logic – expressed in semi-literate form no less.

I’m also not a Canberran, but rather a New South Welshman (and didn’t we show those ball-dropping Queenslanders what for…).

shelby64 said :

just have to laugh………… all you bagging canberra drivers are in fact also canberra drivers lol….. end of story, from a fellow canberra driver/rider..(motorised, no pedal)

That’s pretty crappy logic – expressed in semi-literate form no less.

just have to laugh………… all you bagging canberra drivers are in fact also canberra drivers lol….. end of story, from a fellow canberra driver/rider..(motorised, no pedal)

it’s astounding that there are so many posts decrying the lower speed limits for small portions of their commute – it may add a whole other minute to your commute time; like, that’s going to kill you? as for ‘out of work hours’ limits, as has been noted above, there are often changes to the road surfaces and lane structure associated with these works and, ffs, just suck it up and follow the signs.

everyone just relax, everyone conform to and comply with the road regulations (especially ‘stop’ signs, which, you know, mean you have to bring your vehicle to an actual stop…) and we can all get along. wouldn’t that be nice?

georgesgenitals7:49 pm 11 Jun 10

edlang said :

wrt the Barry Dr roadworks, the lanes are narrow enough that I feel uncomfortable driving entirely adjacent to another car.

Why? Can’t you drive within your lane? Or is it more that you’re worried the car next to you can’t stay in theirs?

Just curious.

PrinceOfAles said :

Keep the 40km/h zones all the time I reckon. At least it gives everyone a bit of consistency with regards to knowing what the speed limit is. Most people whinge about the speed limit changing too often on any given stretch of road as it is.

It also gives the cyclists a chance to get done for speeding.

glennmatthew6:04 pm 11 Jun 10

On the topic of Barry Dr, even during peak-hour this morning cars were flying down while there were guys working.

On the bright side, it stopped the moment I got to a car doing about 34km/h and I slowly (for the duration of the roadworks) overtook them doing 38km/h. I don’t like sitting right on the speed limit, see.

There ARE major discrepencies with how these limits are applied. Compare the non-roadworks, (but 40K limited) at the Canberra Hospital, with the rubbish pickeruppers who patrol the various roads right up to the verge, with nothing more than a ‘men working’ sign to alert motorists.

Most major roadworks are behind crash barriers/armco. 40K has been applied to Lanyon Drive, Hume, when, as a result of the roadworks, the road is arguably safer for workmen and motorists than before the roadworks began.

Speed limits should apply when necessary. Not at all times, and not in areas where work is not taking place.

Tooks said :

Thoroughly Smashed said :

Ahh, the righteous indignation I incur from following drivers when I presume to travel at signposted roadwork speed limits. I should record some of the facial expressions one day.

Oh and also what WMC said above. If the limits are left in place while no work is going on it’s 1) because that’s what the guidelines require; and 2) usually for your own safety.

It really is sad how some people get so worked up when driving, isn’t it? Driving must be so stressful for them. Meanwhile, I’m relaxed, listening to some tunes, while idiots swerve in an out of lanes to get that one car length in front of me.

+1 – Nothing like laughing your head off at some bozo going absolutely freaking mental because he can’t figure out a way to go faster than the car in front of him.

Thoroughly Smashed said :

Ahh, the righteous indignation I incur from following drivers when I presume to travel at signposted roadwork speed limits. I should record some of the facial expressions one day.

Oh and also what WMC said above. If the limits are left in place while no work is going on it’s 1) because that’s what the guidelines require; and 2) usually for your own safety.

It really is sad how some people get so worked up when driving, isn’t it? Driving must be so stressful for them. Meanwhile, I’m relaxed, listening to some tunes, while idiots swerve in an out of lanes to get that one car length in front of me.

Thoroughly Smashed11:24 am 11 Jun 10

Ahh, the righteous indignation I incur from following drivers when I presume to travel at signposted roadwork speed limits. I should record some of the facial expressions one day.

Oh and also what WMC said above. If the limits are left in place while no work is going on it’s 1) because that’s what the guidelines require; and 2) usually for your own safety.

I’ve never seen so much roadworks in this city. If they dig up most of the major roads now, what are they going to dig up in 2012 just before the election?
What are the local authorities thinking?

Woody Mann-Caruso9:19 am 11 Jun 10

I’ve got no problem with driving/riding at 40 when road works are taking place. What shits me is when these limits still apply after hours and at weekends when no work is being done.

And they usually are, typically by covering the signs with a sack. When they’re not, it’s because there are still changed traffic conditions ahead, workers or not. Christ, I nearly had an aneurism working that out.

As the excellently-named PrinceofAles points out, if they put it up and down you’d come over all flustered and complain that it’s too hard to keep track of what speed you’re supposed to be doing. We might even see the old chestnut about how looking at your speedo occasionally causes crashes.

PrinceOfAles5:18 am 11 Jun 10

Keep the 40km/h zones all the time I reckon. At least it gives everyone a bit of consistency with regards to knowing what the speed limit is. Most people whinge about the speed limit changing too often on any given stretch of road as it is. Maybe putting in some great big speed humps might help too.

wrt the Barry Dr roadworks, the lanes are narrow enough that I feel uncomfortable driving entirely adjacent to another car. A staggered formation (and speed) seems to work best, and I think most drivers follow suit.

sexynotsmart said :

54-11 said :

I’ve got no problem with driving/riding at 40 when road works are taking place. What shits me is when these limits still apply after hours and at weekends when no work is being done.

+1

Agreed here too, if there is no work being conducted and no danger from changing road surfaces or conditions the signs should be covered up. They finally have done this for the Canberra Hospital construction site on Yamba Dr when there is no road works at all and no danger outside a few hours per day. They now need to get the contractors doing the Glenloch work to remember to take down their 40kph signs outside of work hours.

People who speed in school zones have no excuse and should be shot, particularly in the ACT where signs a covered in school holidays.

JJ, the law is clear – you can drive any speed you like under the limit but as soon as you start impeding other drivers, you need to pull over and let them pass as soon as you can (and that statement comes from a copper).

There are so many Canberra drivers who are quite happy to be pig-ignorant and become a menace on the road. Most people know the law but just can’t be bothered pulling over.

Jim Jones said :

You’ll pop a neck vein while driving one day and have a crash and then I’ll end up snorting coffee through my nose while laughing at your hideously difigured corpse as I pass it by on my way to work (maybe doing a couple of k’s under the speed limit as a final ‘f%ck you’). And no-one wants that … except for me.

Wow. That absolutely made my day JJ.

I’m with you all the way on that one.

The reason for speed limits in roadwork areas is for more than the safety of roadworkers, they are also to account for drivers to react to any changed traffic conditions, be it changes in lane paths, changes in road surface, even changes to road closures. These are often in place long after workers have gone home. I can’t understand why people are so impatient? It takes about 90 seconds for a car to cover 1 klm at 40 kph. How long is the average roadworks?

Two weeks ago I saw a car driving south in the north bound lanes in the Glenlock beacause the turnoff to William Hovell was over shot. The road toll cold have +1 had some spanner with his foot flat rounded the bend to confront this debarcle. Fortunately, those on the road were driving far beyond their own front bumper and a collision was avoided.

sexynotsmart6:46 pm 10 Jun 10

54-11 said :

I’ve got no problem with driving/riding at 40 when road works are taking place. What shits me is when these limits still apply after hours and at weekends when no work is being done.

+1

Speed limits, as for all road rules in the ACT, are purely advisory…

I’ve got no problem with driving/riding at 40 when road works are taking place. What shits me is when these limits still apply after hours and at weekends when no work is being done.

The reason for the limit is worker safety and that’s a very good thing. But when safety is no longer an issue, then the restriction MUST be lifted.

As noted above, if in place 24/7 unnecessarily, then the restriction loses credibility.

glennmatthew said :

On this topic, I’ve noticed a few people claiming that driving too slow is illegal (see the comments on the second page). So I trawled through General Traffic Offenses to try and find more information about exactly what is an offense.

The only things I could find are, Keep Left, not obstructing traffic and something about 80km/h in a right-hand lane. We get told to slow down when it’s raining, or the traffic conditions simply warrant a safer speed.

Anyone know what the deal is regarding that?

There are rules against obstructing traffic, but this has nothing to do with ‘driving too slow’ (unless you’re doing something ridiculous like 40kph in a 100 zone).

The people whining about other people ‘driving too slow’ are almost certainly the same people who drive in a constant apoplectic rage, neck veins throbbing, because someone is doing 76kph in an 80 zone when it’s pissing down with rain and visibility is almost zero, or something equally asinine.

Seriously, people, relax. You’ll pop a neck vein while driving one day and have a crash and then I’ll end up snorting coffee through my nose while laughing at your hideously difigured corpse as I pass it by on my way to work (maybe doing a couple of k’s under the speed limit as a final ‘f%ck you’). And no-one wants that … except for me.

glennmatthew1:29 pm 10 Jun 10

On this topic, I’ve noticed a few people claiming that driving too slow is illegal (see the comments on the second page). So I trawled through General Traffic Offenses to try and find more information about exactly what is an offense.

The only things I could find are, Keep Left, not obstructing traffic and something about 80km/h in a right-hand lane. We get told to slow down when it’s raining, or the traffic conditions simply warrant a safer speed.

Anyone know what the deal is regarding that?

Very Busy said :

if there is a bus ahead of you, you MUST get infront of it at all cost, even if the bus is keeping up with the traffic.

I blame Northbourne Av, it’s the one place where buses truly suck for the flow of traffic. It’s only a problem during peak hour but it’s truly horrendous when it’s happening. Drivers obviously remain traumatised at all other times.

lrende01 said :

I’m starting to think there must be a few pages in the ACT road rules books that say that the 40km road work speed limit does not apply to ACT residents, that merging lanes means speed up and push in, and that the keep left unless overtaking signs are only for the out of state drivers to take notice of.

….and you’ve forgotten the most important rule of all; if there is a bus ahead of you, you MUST get infront of it at all cost, even if the bus is keeping up with the traffic. If the bus is in the left lane and you need to turn left you MUST get past it, cut it off to get youself back in the left lane, and then slam your brakes on to make your left turn. This is most important because you would never get back the half of a second that you’ve saved.

ConanOfCooma said :

Speeding through a valid roadwork area is more than dangerous to other drivers, think of the dudes working their arse off on the side of the road (Um…).

For the large part, if a cop sees 1000 people speeding together, he’s not going to book one, because by rights he should be booking all.

Do you want the cops to really be assholes?

When you go fishing, do you catch every single fish ?

I go down Gininderra Drv every morning and the roadworks opposite Canberra Uni seem to have it right. On weekends and during the weekdays when roadwork is not being performed the signs are either covered or removed. This was the case this morning, yet I agree with the comment above that some of the roadworks near Glenloch (specifically turning left off GDE onto parkes way) has an indefinite 40km/h limit yet I never see anyone work on that piece of road? obviously motorists realise this and feel cheated I guess? Perhaps if more roadworks were accurate with whether work is actually being performed or not and was signed appropriately motorist would behave, right now it would appear they are frustrated as more often than not roadworks are not actually being performed?

Given that most people drive through these roadworks twice a day at times when no work is being done, it’s probably not surprising that they eventually “learn” to ignore the signs. I’ve long thought that it’s seriously counterproductive to leave the signs uncovered after knock-off, since it conditions people to ignore them at other times.

I’ve never noticed many people ignoring school zones, but I’m sure it happens in certain places. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a child crossing the road in the one that I drive through every morning, but I guess the 8am-4pm restriction makes enough sense that people will follow it.

ConanOfCooma11:19 am 10 Jun 10

Speeding through a valid roadwork area is more than dangerous to other drivers, think of the dudes working their arse off on the side of the road (Um…).

For the large part, if a cop sees 1000 people speeding together, he’s not going to book one, because by rights he should be booking all.

Do you want the cops to really be assholes?

troll-sniffer10:56 am 10 Jun 10

Until guvmnts wake up to the psychology and introduce meaningful roadworks speed limits that revert to something less draconian at the cessation of work, the population will continue to treat roadworks speed limits with the derision they deserve. It’s no good bleating about it, you can’t change a way a large section of the population think, no matter how high and mighty you sit on your hobby horses.

I tend to treat draconian roadworks speed limits with the contempt they deserve unless I see evidence of actual work in progress, in which case I will often slow to well under the 40km/hr limit while passing real people doing real roadworks.

And as for the assertion that occasional campaigns by the coppers do anything more than slap a road tax on the unfortunate few… get real. I have been doing a sensible but illegal speed through unattended roadworks for 40 years and have never been caught.

It’s high time the guvmnt employed a few psychologists to work alongside road engineers to point out the kind of situations where rational human behaviour cannot be overridden by a simple application of legislation. In doing so they would make their remaining legislation much more meaningful and likely to be observed.

Shouldn’t a roadworks sign actually mean that there is work being done?
I’ve been driving past the Glenloch for months now and not much has changed and I barely see any workers or work being done. Just a couple of people standing around pointing at all the potholes that have been developing in the road.

I’m still convinced that the enforced speed limit signs are just another way to raise revenue, and the actual roadworks are just being used as a front for the operation. Thats why it is taking so long to be completed.

Why is it that the Belconnen mall expansion can take less time to build than a couple of bridges that have been taking months.

Cover the signs up when there is no work being done, increase the speed limit to 60 or 70 in non-working periods. Its probably easier for the workers to cover up a sign or change it to a higher speed sign when they finish, than asking people to slow down to 40km/h.

Keeping left is too hard to do, and indicating for more than 3 seconds also seems to difficult to do when changing lanes. And all you people that seem to think they are the best drivers in the world by doing the speed limit, you are probably the people that hog the right hand lane, which is why you see all the people zooming around you.

Holden Caulfield10:40 am 10 Jun 10

smithy said :

The reason for the speed limit in the zones is the workmen who are next to the road.

Think of it like this, how would you like some rocket scientist like JJ driving within 2 to 3 meters of your work desk at 70+ Kph.

It is not hard to guess what his mind is focused on, the fact it is not hard.

Erm, I think you’ll find JJ was actually agrees with abiding by the posted speed limits. Perhaps you should go home and see if you can find your humour module.

That aside, your point is valid for roughly 8 hours a day. For the other 16 hours when there are no workers on site, well, often times it does seem absurd to be required to slow to 40km/h (as an example) if OH&S is the only reason. Of course, sometimes the road itself can be pretty knackered during the work, as we’ve seen with the London Circuit works of late.

The police were booking people speeding through the roadworks at Glenloch Interchange yesterday mid-morning.

I’m starting to think there must be a few pages in the ACT road rules books that say that the 40km road work speed limit does not apply to ACT residents, that merging lanes means speed up and push in, and that the keep left unless overtaking signs are only for the out of state drivers to take notice of.

I have been counting cars (easy to count them when they are all rushing past you and no one is behind you), and have found that on average 1 in 15 cars drive under 60ish km/hr in road work zones. About 1 in 6 of these below 60 are driving around 40.

I’ve been tempted to talk to a couple of people at traffic lights about the reason for the speed limit. Almost everyone seems to be thinking of themselves only here!

I really think that leaving the 40km/h signs up even when there is no safety risk dilutes how seriously I take them in general… the sign that cried wolf. When there is work happening, though, I keep disciplined.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

3. Whether or not other people get caught shouldn’t have any bearing on whether you continue to do the right thing or not. Don’t let the f*ckers drag you down to their level.

I’ll have to agree with you on that one.

Having moved to Canberra in the summer I was shocked at how fast everyone drives here, especially in school and construction zones. I sit on the speed limit everywhere I go and it never ceases to amaze me the number of cars that overtake me just to get to the next set of traffic lights 3 seconds faster.

Where I come from the speed limit around schools and construction is 25km/h so going 40km/h seems fast to me already, but I was travelling down Ginnindera Dr the other day and people were overtaking me going at least 70km/h…the road workers were yelling at them as they drove past to slow down.

The reason for the speed limit in the zones is the workmen who are next to the road.

Think of it like this, how would you like some rocket scientist like JJ driving within 2 to 3 meters of your work desk at 70+ Kph.

It is not hard to guess what his mind is focused on, the fact it is not hard.

Woody Mann-Caruso9:46 am 10 Jun 10

1. Police do patrol these areas – I watched them grabbing people at the Canberra Hospital constuction zone last week.

2. People who speed through these areas probably speed elsewhere too – they’ll get caught eventually.

3. Whether or not other people get caught shouldn’t have any bearing on whether you continue to do the right thing or not. Don’t let the f*ckers drag you down to their level.

I’m happy to let them at it these days. One of them will end up killing someone, there’ll be a fifteen second piece on the news about the dangers of speeding, and the rest of the community will continue in their attitude of, “won’t happen to me”. Or perhaps some hoon will come off the road and scrape their racing plastic on the edge of the tarmac, at which point there’ll be an inquiry and tougher legislation regarding signage and barriers in construction zones.

Remember, this is Canberra post-80s. It’s all “me me me” and “what about my entitlements”. Noone cares about responsibility or watching out for your mates anymore. We laugh at the Dali Lama and his silly ideas of being unselfish and living with other people’s interests in mind.

georgesgenitals9:36 am 10 Jun 10

Jim Jones said :

Slowing down makes your penis shrink back into your body irreversibly – never forget this.

Thanks for sharing so the rest of us don’t have to learn the hard way.

Slowing down makes your penis shrink back into your body irreversibly – never forget this.

So what’s the point? – people weigh up the extremely small personal benefit to them of going 30km/h faster with the extremely small probability that they will get caught by the police.

Over 250 metres of roadworks, by travelling at 70km/h rather than 40km/h you would shave a whopping 9.6 seconds off your 15-25 minute commute, which shows how much people think they will get caught.

I think it would be reasonable to adjust the speed higher during non work hours. It is probably simpler to just say 40 at all times though.

georgesgenitals9:02 am 10 Jun 10

The cops definitely police these sites. I’ve seen them at various roadworks quite a lot over the past few months.

Of course, they can’t be everywhere.

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