26 February 2007

Stefaniak the il-liberal

| johnboy
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There was another stabbing over the weekend, an 18 year old out for his birthday was allegedly stupid enough to carry a knife and even stupider to pull it out in a fight and has probably changed the course of his life by stabbing a 21 year old.

It is alleged someone has done something wrong, they have been charged and the matter will now work itself out in the courts.

So where’s the problem?

Well the so called “Liberal” leader, Bill Stefaniak thinks the solution to this functioning system is random searches!

“Mr Stefaniak said giving police random search powers would soon put paid to the use of knives when arguments erupt, particularly around nightclubs and public places.

Why not random wiretaps? Compulsory DNA registration? An end to jury trials and that pesky presumption of innocence while we’re at it?

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Found this in the Crimes Act. I guess it comes done to what the courts find reasonable.
**************************************
193 Power to conduct search of person for knife
(1) Subject to subsection (2), if a police officer suspects on reasonable
grounds that a person who is in a public place or school has a knife
in his or her possession, the police officer may—
(a) conduct a frisk search or an ordinary search of the person; and
(b) seize any knife found as a result of the search.
(2) A police officer may conduct a search of a person under
subsection (1) only if the police officer—
(a) provides evidence to the person that he or she is a police
officer, unless the police officer is in uniform; and
(b) informs the person of the reason for the search.
(3) As soon as practicable after a search has been conducted under
subsection (1), the police officer who conducted the search shall
record the time, location and nature of the search.
**************************************
382 Possession of knife in public place or school
(1) A person shall not, without reasonable excuse, have a knife in his or
her possession in a public place or school.
Maximum penalty: 10 penalty units, imprisonment for 6 months or
both.
(2) Without limiting what may constitute a reasonable excuse, it is a
reasonable excuse for a person to have a knife in his or her
possession in a public place or school if—
(a) the possession is necessary or reasonable for, or for a purpose
incidental to—
(i) the lawful pursuit of the person’s occupation; or
(ii) the preparation or consumption of food; or
(iii) participation in a lawful entertainment, recreation or
sport; or
(iv) the exhibition of knives for retail or other trade purposes;
or
(v) an organised exhibition by knife collectors; or
(vi) the wearing of an official uniform; or
(vii) religious purposes; or
(b) the possession is of a prescribed kind.(3) It is not a reasonable excuse for a person to have a knife in his or her
possession in a public place or school solely for the purpose of selfdefence
or the defence of another person.

West_Kambah_4eva3:59 pm 27 Feb 07

Does this mean I have to take off my hook hand when I go out now?

“I’ve seen these “random” stop and search powers at work in the UK, not surprising that more often than not it is blacks, youths and other minorities who are the subject of “random” searches.

Tory Laura Norder crap = bull$hit”

blair introduced asbo’s… notorious infringers of citizens rights.

can you hear that sound ? its the magna carta being flushed away.

alcohol fuelled nightclub

potential weapons: beer glass, pool cue, chair, bottle.

i could go on.

i doubt a 3 inch folder would be a force multiplier when confronted with the dark end of a broken schooner.

VYBerlinaV8 now_with_added grunt10:40 am 27 Feb 07

What’s also interesting is that we have no trouble justifying breaking the law (and perhaps commonsense in some cases), by carrying a potentially lethal weapon into an alcohol-fuelled nightclub where fights are not uncommon, and yet someone suggests that speeding isn’t the instrument of the devil and gets shot down in flames. Interesting indeed.

isnt it interesting that here we have a cross section of canberras community, with several peopel admitting they break the law – because its an arse.

i hope mr stefaniak or one of his cronies takes some notes.

law abiding citizens using tools as intended are not criminals, and shouldnt be swept up in broad stroke legislation aimed at combatting anti-social behaviour.

RBT is only justified because there is a requirement you be licensed to be on the road in the first place. Even then the unwarranted search has prevented its introduction in jurisdictions which take liberties seriously. (unlike here where ignorant yahoos trade them away daily for a half point jump in the polls)

It is most certainly not a model than should be applied elsewhere.

A random search of the “Seek” job website shows no vacancies for random searchers.

Police the power to stop any private citizen at any time without reason – can’t they do that now ?

I’ll be interested to see their response next time I drive straight through a rbt, avoiding the copper who signalled me to stop on account of I was going about my business in a lawful and peaceful manner.

Myrmecia – apply the 15yo Tom Sawyer test. If a 15yo boy could create mischief with the item, then it’s probably got a rule attached regarding its usage.

The only exception to this rule is when my 80yo grandmother got her knitting needles confiscated by an overzealous security guard on a flying equivalent to Wagga2 to Aubury. To date I fail to see what the hell he was thinking.

It does seem that the Liberals have lost their way here, isn’t “liberal” supposed to mean “limited government” and “private citizens pursuing life, liberty and happiness unhindered by unwarranted govt interference”?

I would have thought that the Police would already have the power to search someone if they have reasonable suspicion that the person was/had/was about to commit an offence. Therefore Stefaniak’s proposed law will give the Police the power to stop any private citizen at any time without reason. Outrageous.

I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, as a private citizen who goes lawfully about their business in a peaceful manner it makes me furious to think that I could be stopped and molested by the Police.

I’ve seen these “random” stop and search powers at work in the UK, not surprising that more often than not it is blacks, youths and other minorities who are the subject of “random” searches.

Tory Laura Norder crap = bull$hit

I didn’t know carrying knives was illegal. I always have a folding “Swiss Army” folding pocket knife with me, sometimes in a belt pouch, sometimes in my pocket and sometimes in my bicycle pannier. Is this really illegal in the ACT? I also have a Swiss Army” brand card which contains a tiny knife. Is that also illegal around town? What about the card and knife when I’m bushwalking or driving? Where can I find the relevant rules?

politicians LOVE to take your rights away, but when was the last time one of these draconian ideas was repealed ?

So im guessing we are getting numerous stabbings daily to justify this gestapo type legislation. Or what have I missed something?

I used to courier documents to Parliament House on a daily basis, and I always had a bet with myself whether the APS goons would confiscate my car keys because they had a miniature swiss army knife (one 2cm dull blade, one nail file, tweezers) attached to them. This was well before September 11 made people insane about security, yet 2 out of 5 times, they made me check in my car keys.

One guard got very upset when I told him that I considered my Bic pen a more effective weapon than the keys he’d just taken off me.

neanderthalsis3:51 pm 26 Feb 07

I must admit that I too am a habitual knife carrier. I have used it in many and varied situations but never as a weapon. In all honesty, by the time I extricated it from my pocket, opened it and found the knife blade all the action wolud be over (it’s a Leatherman).

Some knives would be hard to justify carrying in public, anything fixed bade for instance: “Yes officer I was carrying this 52 inch claymore to peel the orange mum gave me for lunch” is not really a valid excuse, but having a tool with pliers, a variety of screwdrivers, knife blades and a plethora of other devices is very handy.

VYBerlinaV8 now_with_added grunt3:48 pm 26 Feb 07

🙂

“men in suits are rarely ‘randomly’ searched”

Reason #377 why I wear a suit to work each day.

DarkLadyWolfMother3:28 pm 26 Feb 07

Oh, offhand, I also have already had a ‘discussion’ with Mr Stefaniak about knives and laws when he rashly mentioned that there’s only one reason one would carry a knife.

It’s curious explaining the law to a local member…

DarkLadyWolfMother3:24 pm 26 Feb 07

I gave up carrying a knife when it became illegal to do so. However, I second bonfire’s comment that they’re damned useful.

I never once (to my knowledge) attacked anyone with it. I do admit to threatening someone with it, but since they were spying on me while I sat on the loo, I felt justified. Actually, that’s a lie, I felt scared and the knife was the only thing I had on me that I thought might deter him. Heaven knows what I’d have done if he’d called my bluff.

So. Yeah. Knives. Useful things.

unless bonfire is Captain Jack

only time im without a knife is when im in the air, or going somewhere i know i’ll be metal detected.
or perhaps in the shower.

pubs – all the time.

nightclubs – toast/holy grail – all the time.

only time im without a knife is when im in the air, or going somewhere i know i’ll be metal detected.

of course im not worried too much about ‘random’ searches. men in suits are rarely ‘randomly’ searched.

VYBerlinaV8 now_with_added grunt2:27 pm 26 Feb 07

So, Bonfire – how often do you carry said useful tool into a nightclub?

hey futto, we *ARE* catching them after the act.

ive carried a knife my whole life.

they are useful tools for the paring of fruit, opening of envelopes, preparing plants for grafts etc.

its never crossed my mind that this useful tool could be used to atack somebody.

does this mean that the tool is a weapon ?

i would object to the further surrendering of my right to go about my business unmolested by a government agent.

more people are stabbed by kitchen knives than by knives carried in ones pocket.

lets ban that menace first.

I thought the solution was for a society that teaches and upholds respect for all its members. And one that equips its youth with the capacity and intellect to know how not to resolve differences by simply viciously annihilating your opponents.

if we cant catch them before the act, why don’t we consider targeting the deterrent factors.

If a person thought that they would be caught and punished, they are less likely to do an offense.

My simplistic example would be fixed speed cameras. The chances of getting caught are high, if not 100% probable.

Obviously, its cheaper for the politicians to just write laws then to properly fund and staff the CCTV program.

VYBerlinaV8 now_with_added grunt1:24 pm 26 Feb 07

Why not just pass a law allowing police the power to search people on a risk assessment basis, using their visible profile to determine the risk?

It sounds a bit nasty, but Customs have been doing this for years, and easily have a high enough hit rate to justify the practice.

This would remove the word random, and simply allow police to search someone who appears as though they may be carrying a knife, or be spoiling for a fight.

I have trouble with the word ‘random’, too. It can too quickly become vicious and unaccountable, with police ‘randomly’ targeting the same people, for no reason.

It’s one of the annoying things about politicians: they keep playing a law and order card to get on the tele.

By the way, has anyone found out whether the crime appeared on the CCTV that was supposed to prevent such horrors?

Can’t police do that already anyway ?

A quick ‘over here sonny wave’ and a “empty out your pockets” ?

Still won’t prevent people stabbing each other, on account of this is a knee-jerk reaction – the chances of the police having searched the guy when he had the knife on him before shooting down to his birthday bash are minimal anyway.

Surely it wouldn’t be a problem if police had the power to search someone if they had ‘reasonable suspicion’ that a person may be carrying a weapon. The problem is of course, defining ‘reasonable’.

the ‘problem, johnboy, is that someone got stabbed. i’m guessing that hurt. a lot. and i suspect stefaniak is addressing the problem. or trying to.

While I don’t agree with random searches, i would rather have police (from whom i’m entitled to expect some integrity) searching people whose actions suggest they might be conducting themselves in a way that might result in them harming someone else, and those police having some way to prevent that occurence, not just note it and wait until it ends – as it will – in tears…

How else do we eradicate carriage of weapons such as knives – follow Victoria’s lead?

I have a problem with the word random. Does this mean that it is truly random so grandma’s and pregnant women get searched?

If its not random Bill, then don’t call it that.

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