Tax on stupidity rakes in the cash - Speed cameras bring in millions more

Jim Jones said :

Indicators, people: they’re not optional extras, they’re for letting other people know what you’re going to do (hint: this means that it’s utterly pointless to begin indicating when you’re already in the process of turning).

no no no, you’ve got it all wrong, they are confirmators when used for that purpose 🙂

Jim Jones said :

Indicators, people: they’re not optional extras, they’re for letting other people know what you’re going to do (hint: this means that it’s utterly pointless to begin indicating when you’re already in the process of turning).

Haha, don’t get me fking started on that! 😛

Ah, that reminds me – I was cycling at lunchtime and was almost cleaned up by a car that didn’t bother indicating (despite me obviously craning my neck to look at the car in an attempt to discern if it was going to turn or not) as it turned onto Parkes way near the city.

Indicators, people: they’re not optional extras, they’re for letting other people know what you’re going to do (hint: this means that it’s utterly pointless to begin indicating when you’re already in the process of turning).

Holden Caulfield said :

Discussion on speeding and its policing in such a context as RA is a waste of time. It seems few can do it without resorting to name calling. It’s all lowest common denominator stuff, which is ironic I suppose.

I just hope there is as much passion for car maintenance (regular servicing, monitoring of tyre pressures, brake pads etc) and a general support for continual improvement

There seems little point on discussing this issue on here – its all been done to death already anyway.

Jim Jones said :

Problem being: very few people would ever admit to having an attitude problem when it comes to driving.

Double problem being: “attitude” has a far broader spectrum than the immediate aggressive nature that may be the first thought. It could be as simple as thinking that so long as you’re under the speed limit you are a safe driver. It could be as simple as not having an understanding of when lights should and shouldn’t be used. For me, all that comes down to attitude as it reflects on how an individual chooses to interact with other road users.

Jim Jones said :

#75 by crankymum was a pretty amazing post, and I suspect if more of us had the same self-consciousness of how we behave when we’re driving, everyone would be a lot better off.

Very true. I’m not perfect by any means, and have never claimed to be. My weakness is impatience with other drivers and I am prone to nudging over the limit at times. I am working on improving my faults. But the level of incompetence displayed on any given day is astounding and that certainly doesn’t help with improving my impatience!

Holden Caulfield said :

As has been established, there is usually more than one reason for an accident. I’d guess that driver attitude would be right up there. A theory that would appear to gain some merit after reading the replies herein.

Problem being: very few people would ever admit to having an attitude problem when it comes to driving.

#75 by crankymum was a pretty amazing post, and I suspect if more of us had the same self-consciousness of how we behave when we’re driving, everyone would be a lot better off.

Discussion on speeding and its policing in such a context as RA is a waste of time. It seems few can do it without resorting to name calling. It’s all lowest common denominator stuff, which is ironic I suppose.

I just hope there is as much passion for car maintenance (regular servicing, monitoring of tyre pressures, brake pads etc) and a general support for continual improvement towards driving behaviour and awareness of road rules practiced by the people partaking in this discussion.

As has been established, there is usually more than one reason for an accident. I’d guess that driver attitude would be right up there. A theory that would appear to gain some merit after reading the replies herein.

Beat me to it JJ. I fail to see how “50 unless posted otherwise” could be in any way ambiguous. Like you said – it sure aint rocket surgery.

I mean, really, what do you want, gigantic flashing neon speed limit signs posted at 5 meter intervals?

Jumping Jesus on a pogo stick, is it any wonder we end up living in a nanny state when people use the most inane arguments to absolve themselves of personal responsbility and want ‘the gummint’ to do everything for them.

ML-585 said :

If you turn off a side street into a 60 km/h street, you may not know the correct limit for several kms.

50 unless posted otherwise.

It’s not rocket science.

The ACT Government needs to do more to make the speed limits known. The ’50 km/h unless otherwise signposted’ is one of the most ridiculous rules ever invented. If you turn off a side street into a 60 km/h street, you may not know the correct limit for several kms. If you assume it’s 60 because it is a major feeder street, you could well be wrong. Many suburban feeder streets are 50km/h while others are 60.

So I tried to find a list or a map online which showed the speed limits for Canberra streets. No surprise – there isn’t one.

I’ve found a very well written report that looks at the available evidence and cogently weighs up the utility of speed cameras. It makes a number of interesting points and should be compulsory reading for any authority looking to set up speed cameras. Here are some examples of the recommendations:

http://tti.tamu.edu/documents/TTI-2006-4.pdf

“Speed cameras should be used to deter speeding where speeding could be
predicted to create high crash risks and consequences… Using speed
cameras in low-risk environments (e.g., on rural freeways with low volumes of
traffic and no history of speed-related crashes) generates public skepticism about
the motives for their use and leads to accusations that the cameras are being
used to generate revenue, not to improve road safety”

“The purpose of the speed camera program – to improve safety by reducing
unsafe speed in high-risk environments – must be clearly and persuasively
communicated to the public… Signs announcing the possible presence of speed cameras should be prominently posted throughout the enforcement area. To do otherwise is to
reinforce the suspicion that cameras are being used primarily for revenue
enhancement rather than for safety reasons.”

“Revenue generated by speed cameras should be used principally to cover the
costs of the enforcement program, with any surplus being used only for other
traffic safety programs. Diversion of surplus revenues for other purposes will
quickly erode public acceptance of the program”

“Speed cameras should not substitute for human enforcement. Motorists’
organizations oppose speed camera programs when there is even a hint that
they may lead either to reduced levels of conspicuous police patrol or decisions
to not increase the police presence on problem-plagued roads”

“In order to have a better deterrent effect, citations issued as a result of
speed camera photos should be sent promptly… Getting the ticket to the offender within two weeks after the speeding offense is generally doable and effective in deterring future speeding”

Definitely some food for thought…

Possibly place cameras 500m in front and behind all other cameras? This may be an infinite task but it seems to be where I have been caught by the boys in blue lying in wait. According to them last time they had a discussion with me, it’s fairly well known that many folk speed up between cameras, slow down before and then speed up after.
Me, well, I just have a tendency to drive fast, and am always willing to have a friendly chat and wear it with the police.
No, I am not one of those who does 150 in 60 zones, and I always slow down to 40 in the school zones, but on the parkway / highway my mind tends to wander and foot go further to the floor.

On topic specifically though – more permanent cameras in known crash zones/black spots where the crashes’ severity is linked to speed.

Oh, on topic, put as many cameras in as you want. They don’t affect me, I don’t speed 😉

Revenue rasiers yes. Idiot tax? Even more so.

+1

Not to mention Special G’s point at #111 that speed cameras (not operated by police in ACT – civilian operators no?) provide resourcing and free up the coppers to target other crimes.

Speed cameras in all school zones as well. Then the speed Police can go and do some real police work and catch real criminals as is regularly suggested by people caught speeding.

Install speed and red light cameras at every traffic light. It would force a change in driver behaviour.

Clown Killer said :

Come on, CK, if you can’t acknowledge that road safety consists of more than one significant factor, then you’re little better than the straw men you’re railing against.

But that’s exactly my point JJ. Road safety is based on more than one factor – that’s why is so bloody stupid to try and argue that one aspect of the approach is responsible for changes in crash rates.

Not at all CK. If a problem has many causes, then addressing a single cause can reduce instances of the problem (although obviously not *all* instances of the problem). For example: not all violence is caused by excessive alcohol intake, but curbing excessive alcohol intake will still have the effect of reducing levels of violence.

Yes, stats regarding something with a complex array of causes and contributing factors aren’t going to be black and white – there will necessarily be a certain amount of shading to take into account. But that’s no reason to discount them before seeing them.

All this aside, I still like JB’s point that, safety issues aside, speed camera revenue is essentially a tax on the stupid: there are laws against speeding, everyone knows about them; there are big signs everywhere with the speed limits on them; there are MASSIVE signs telling people what the speed limits are near speed cameras; and EVEN MORE MASSIVE SIGNS informing people that speed cameras are nearing … and yet people are still racking up fines. You’ve gotta be pretty dumb really.

2 Journals of academic papers have many articles of peer reviewed research on the pros and cons of speed cameras, fixed, mobile and covert.

Check these journals: Accident Analysis & Prevention and Journal of Safety Research.

This one is my favourite. The fullt text is copyrighted, but the abstract is freely available…

The effects of mobile speed camera introduction on road traffic crashes and casualties in a rural county of England
Andrew P. Jones, Violet Sauerzapfa and Robin Haynesa
doi:10.1016/j.jsr.2007.10.011

ABSTRACT

Problem
This study assesses the impact of crash and casualty numbers in correspondence to the introduction of mobile speed cameras in the rural county of Norfolk, England.
Method

Road traffic accident casualty and crash data were collected for two years before the introduction of cameras and two years subsequently. The casualties and crashes occurring at 29 camera sites were identified and separated from those occurring in the rest of the county. Trends in crashes and casualties, and their severity, were examined graphically and comparisons were made between before and after periods. The regression to the mean effect at individual sites was estimated.

Results
After the introduction of cameras, overall crashes declined by 1% and crashes involving fatalities or serious injuries declined by 9% on the roads without cameras. At the camera sites, crashes decreased by 19% and fatal and serious crashes by 44%. The reduction in total crashes was significantly greater than that expected from the effect of regression to the mean in 12 out of 20 sites tested.

Summary
The introduction of cameras appears to have resulted in real and measurable reductions in crash risk in this rural county.

Impact on industry
Our results suggest the deployment of mobile speed cameras is an effective tool for organizations wishing to reduce road traffic casualties in areas where high crash rates have been associated with excessive vehicle speeds.

Fire away WMC, I’d like to see some of this evidence you refer to. Particularly if you can find some independent research not sponsored by government funding, given that the government has a vested interest to the tune of several hundred million dollars a year in favour of the propagation of speed cameras…

Thumper at #102 you hit the nail on the head. The gov’t should have some fun though and quadruple the fines. Hopefully the revenue raised will fund the purchase of more speed cameras.

sorry jb, was typing when you were I just get cranky at the agro

The next offtopic commenter here is going into mod.

Aw, c’mon JB, Woody needs to write another one of his long, long responses now.

back on topic.

we have a flame of the month – can we have a jb put-down of the month?? ; )

Put your willies away now please boys.

So show us the proof that speed cameras have reduced the incidence of speeding and the road toll in Canberra, big shot.

It’s you that has nothing, i’m guessing that includes friends.

If hospitals are so good at curing people, why are there still sick people?
If police are so good at catching criminals, why are there still crimes?
If schools are so good at educating people, why are there still illiterate people?

Logic – you fail at it.

Here, I’ll spell it out for you. I’ll type extra, extra slow, because that’s what you seem to be:

Nobody claims that speed cameras eliminate speeding. They claim that speed cameras result in fewer people speeding, and that as a result there are fewer crashes, fewer injuries and fewer deaths (and fewer costs to taxpayers – they don’t just raise revenue through fines, they also save money by reducing expensive crashes).

They’re completely right. You aren’t. They have evidence to support their claims – evidence you could find, if you were smart enough to use Google; evidence I’ve linked to on this site before to deafening silence from the “but some guy who drives cars on TV said…” gallery. You’ve. Got. Nothing.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

And now that we know what the self absorbed high pants wearing knobs think, who actually believes that fixed speed cameras really do anything to reduce speeding anywhere except the section of road immediately in front of the cameras?

Hey, the research supports me, not you, ‘Doctor’. What have you got to refute it? Zip, plus two inches, I’m guessing.

You should get your mind off my pants and have another look at “your” research. If the speed cameras are working so well at preventing speeding, why are they still turning a profit?

Come on, CK, if you can’t acknowledge that road safety consists of more than one significant factor, then you’re little better than the straw men you’re railing against.

But that’s exactly my point JJ. Road safety is based on more than one factor – that’s why is so bloody stupid to try and argue that one aspect of the approach is responsible for changes in crash rates.

Clown Killer said :

This is important because if it is speed cameras that are responsible for reduced crash rates then we can get more of them and make saving by not wasting money on safety advertising or community education campaigns. Cars will also become cheaper because manufacturers can stop installing ABS, EBD and ETC.

Come on, CK, if you can’t acknowledge that road safety consists of more than one significant factor, then you’re little better than the straw men you’re railing against.

Not at all JJ – I’m not actually sure how you arrived at that conclusion. What I’m interested in is how the researchers are able to isolate speed cameras as the causal factor from all the other stuff.

This is important because if it is speed cameras that are responsible for reduced crash rates then we can get more of them and make saving by not wasting money on safety advertising or community education campaigns. Cars will also become cheaper because manufacturers can stop installing ABS, EBD and ETC.

deye said :

Ive spent the evening trying to find the figures and either they dont exist, or arent published online (surprising in this era). If the government wanted to prove speed cameras work, why dont they give some hard numbers, other than the number of millions taken from the pockets of people who probably cant afford it.

The figures are available at Road Deaths Australia 2008 Statistical Summary Page 13

Averaged over the 9 naughty years

The ACT had 4.41 deaths per 100000 people and 0.47 deaths per 100 million km travelled
  and VIC had 7.26 deaths per 100000 peopleand 0.69 deaths per 100 million km travelled

Of interest but not suitable to draw any inference about the effect of speed cameras

Clown Killer said :

Hey, the research supports me, not you, ‘Doctor’. What have you got to refute it? Zip, plus two inches, I’m guessing.

I’d be pretty interested to see research that demonstrates that speed cameras are responsible for the reduction in the number of fatalities. I’d be particularly interested to see how the findings were arrived at and how the researchers could isolate speed cameras from other factors like reduction in the age of the car fleet, greater prevalence of technology like ABS, EBD and ETC, changed driving habits and road engineering improvements let alone advertising and community education campaigns.

So you’d be interested to see the research, but you’d discount it if it provided conclusions that were different to your own?

Hey, the research supports me, not you, ‘Doctor’. What have you got to refute it? Zip, plus two inches, I’m guessing.

I’d be pretty interested to see research that demonstrates that speed cameras are responsible for the reduction in the number of fatalities. I’d be particularly interested to see how the findings were arrived at and how the researchers could isolate speed cameras from other factors like reduction in the age of the car fleet, greater prevalence of technology like ABS, EBD and ETC, changed driving habits and road engineering improvements let alone advertising and community education campaigns.

And now that we know what the self absorbed high pants wearing knobs think, who actually believes that fixed speed cameras really do anything to reduce speeding anywhere except the section of road immediately in front of the cameras?

Hey, the research supports me, not you, ‘Doctor’. What have you got to refute it? Zip, plus two inches, I’m guessing.

ant said :

Outside the Airport is posted at 60, apart from the bit Guideline are toiling away at, which is 40.

The flyover outside the airport is 60 going towards Queanbeyan and 70 going towards Civic. And that’s with the lanes on the 60 side being pretty wide, and the new line markings forcing the other side into a merge as soon as the flyover touches ground.

Kids do crazy things like run away from schools. I know hard to imagine. They sometimes end up on the roads. I’ve said it before that school zones should be standard double demerit points.

As for the Gungahlin streets they are windy etc which encourages some to drive them as fast as they can which has ended up with more than a couple of cars in front yards and deaths. Plenty of ways to attempt to make roads safer.

Those wanting more Police on the roads and less cameras. Maybe more cameras, increased revenue to pay for the more Police.

deye said :

I would like to go the path on getting rid of the stupid things and having extra police out there so that they also catch all the idiotic things some drivers do, you know like tailgating, overtaking on blind corners, using high beams all the time, fog lights when it’s dark, running red lights, not indicating, weaving in and out of traffic etc. all those things that a camera doesn’t do one iota to stop.

+1. Hear hear. I observe the most amazing lunatics on a daily basis.

Current slight annoyance is on State Circle, the DFAT clowns who will be turning left into Brisbane Ave to get to their carpark, and they just HAVE to overtake everything in the left lane first, and then jam on the brakes as they can’t get around the left turn until the lights go green. Slob-like, it makes cars flowing along have to jam on their brakes to avoid hitting them. I think the term is “cutting off”. I guess it’s not life-threatening, just selfish, “me-first” driving. There’s a lot of it around here.

This thread hurts a lot right now. My wallet is hurting more though. And I am sooooo sure I wasn’t speeding as I remember feeling a bit worried at the time and checking my speedo and thinking I would be ok.

I really hate giving the government free money.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

This debate would actually go somewhere if we all debated the issue rather than resorting to personal attacks. Mods?

Forget I said ‘Mods’, everyone. The first sentence still stands.

The very next time you whinge about moderation in a comment, rather than send an email in private, you will be going into moderation yourself.

This debate would actually go somewhere if we all debated the issue rather than resorting to personal attacks. Mods?

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

Looking at those figures, our road-toll has only gone up

Looking at that statement, you know absolutely nothing about statistics.

I don’t remember ANY accidents

Because they all happen when you’re there to see them.

Glad to see the anti-camera crowd is still attracting our best and brightest minds. Of course, you’re also the ones paying all the fines, so guess it’s not much of a surprise.

And now that we know what the self absorbed high pants wearing knobs think, who actually believes that fixed speed cameras really do anything to reduce speeding anywhere except the section of road immediately in front of the cameras?

And many drivers aren’t even bothering to slow down as they pass the cameras, as proven by the government boasting about the amount of revenue raised.

As I stated above, my problem wasnt a lack of guidelines, its a lack of consistency

the ‘consistency’ is that they each clearly signpost what they want you to do – unlike the old in-consistencies such as the remarkably non-intuitive ‘give way to traffic turning in front of you when you’re turning left’ thing victoria had until only a few years back!

btw, i wasn’t at all having a go about the data points, just noting – but you’re right of course dvaey, data is hard to come by and it doesn’t seem that some of these gov’t interventions are done with regard to published stats, rather simpe revenue gathering.

i also agree with the good sergeant that engineering is the key – the mind of the driver the critical thing what needs the engineering, but! too many drivers have a selfish arrogance about their driving then blame everything else when it goes awry. like, someone above mentioned the speed ‘limit’ – we hear this often in conversations butthe word ‘limit’ simply means the boundary; it doesn’t speak to any mandate of what actual speed should be met – though i agree that a slow driver in a ‘fast’ lane can be very dangerous (mainly because of poor attitudes by other drivers, but dangerous nonetheless)

stops rant now.

http://www.minister.infrastructure.gov.au/aa/releases/2008/August/AA112_2008.htm

Try this link which goes to a media release from the Federal Minister for Transport. It has a graph that shows the road fatality figures from 1981 to 2007. The minister concedes that the annual road toll has remained essentially static since 2003. It’s also interesting to note that the ACT has the lowest fatality rate at 4.1 deaths per 100,000 people (compared to the NT which has the highest rate at 26.1 per 100,000), and is the only state or territory below the national target of 5.6 deaths per 100,000.

Clown Killer said :

Ivan, you’re argument is flawed. The speed limit is just that – the legal limit. What happens when you
drive faster or slower will be determined by the conditions prevailing at the time.

And “you’re” sarcasm detector is out of batteries.

I agree, Sgt.Bungers except that I am actually expecting to have an accident on our narrow Gungahlin street one day. It’s only just wide enough for two cars to safely pass slowly, but cars also park along the side of the road meaning that you have to go around them on the wrong side of the road. Even though I always do between 20-40 kmh on our street there are many people who do it at 60 or more. It is only a matter of time before somebody comes flying around that corner and takes our car with them, and there’s absolutely nothing I can do about it because of the road design.

I finally realised that I was entering a different reality when driving… one controlled by hormones, I think.

For instance, I was a little more aggressive, a little ‘pumped’, quite convinced of my right as an individual to consider myself better than the other road users ‘because yada yada yada’…

Now, I calm the f*ck down when going out to my car to drive it somewhere. I *plan* to have plenty of time to get to where I need to go. To the extent of getting off the computer twenty minutes before I need to, just to make sure I have done everything I need to before I set out.

I drive at the speed limit (hint – learn to assess what your engine sounds like at 40kph/60kph/80kph/100kph so you are NOT constantly taking your eyes off the road to check your speedo) and I drive with other road users’ needs in mind.

It didn’t take much to change…I just had an epiphany when teaching my daughter to drive:

taking chances and assuming I had the ability to *choose* when to obey the laws +
attempting to *choose* to eg exceed the speed limit = erratic conditions for other drivers.

Just want to make the driving conditions more predictable for everyone… you know, sharing the road system for the benefit of everyone who uses it.

Especially for the benefit of my daughter, so that she has a better chance of not being involved in an accident.

Hey, she doesn’t even live here anymore… so now I do it for OTHER PEOPLE’S children. Even the grown-up children who are older than I am.

dvaey, I think ACT had those times for school limits because for eg. Evatt Primary until recently had an unfenced oval sitting on a main road (yes picture the ball bouncing onto the road easy). Very common in Canberra.

Road engineering is the best way to slow vehicles down, albeit the most expensive. I don’t mean afterthought traffic calming, speed bumps, pinch points, etc. I mean design the road from the ground up with the aim of keeping vehicle speeds low. Narrow lanes, no gutters, minimal lane markings, etc, create uncertain environments for drivers which makes traveling fast uncomfortable. I’ve had this rant before.

Build a road that looks safe to do 100km/h+ and post an 80km/h speed limit (Monaro Highway passing Hume, Horse Park Drive, parts of Hindmarsh, the GDE), and those who are paying more attention to the road than their speedo are going to end up going more than than 80km/h at one point or another. Lining roads like this with speed cameras is poor, lazy and nasty policy.

Build a road that appears safe to do 70km/h, post an 80km/h speed limit, and I can guarantee you’ll have very, very few people exceeding the speed limit accidentally. Those who were exceeding the speed limit in such a situation would know they were going too fast for the conditions and deserve whatever they cop.

Look at pretty much any residential street in Gungahlin… narrow, windy roads with a 50km/h speed limit. Personally I’m not comfortable doing more than 30km/h on most of these roads. Any given dirt road in country NSW with a 100km/h speed limit. My speed will be between 20km/h and 80km/h depending on the road. Then look at Hindmarsh between Garran and Red Hill. 5 lane road, no driveway entrances, no pedestrians, most drivers travel at 90km/h to 100km/h. Why is the speed limit still 80km/h?

Keep building spacious, generous roads which encourage higher speed, and post low speed limits on them, and it’s almost certain you’ll continue to get people accidentally creeping over the speed limit. Which, given the 8 figures that speed cameras raked in last year in the ACT last year, I have no doubt is what the ACT Gov wants.

deye, thanks for the link, very interesting reading

deye said :

What is galling to me is that being from another state the roads I grew up using were in much worse condition, narrower, with less visibility, yet had just as much traffic on them and a much higher speed limit than the main roads here. The speed limit on some of the roads here is almost sleep inducing.

I drove through central NSW the other day, and was totally amazed that roads I thought were 80km/hr were signposted at 110. Single lane each way, soft edges, but 30-50km/hr faster than Id expect on the same road in the ACT.

dvaey said :

astrojax said :

looking at those figures, the road toll has been remarkably static, not ‘gone up’ – esp as there is an arbitrary start date at 2001 with a blip in 2005… if you’d started in 2005, you’d have remarked how the road toll has been effectively halved;

Unfortunately, as much as we’d like to think it so, there doesnt seem to be an easy source to find road toll information, so I had to collate that information from about 20 google searches. This is part of the whole problem I think, the government just says ‘speed cameras are working’, without any real figures being available. Ive spent the evening trying to find the figures and either they dont exist, or arent published online (surprising in this era). If the government wanted to prove speed cameras work, why dont they give some hard numbers, other than the number of millions taken from the pockets of people who probably cant afford it.

try http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/safety/road_fatality_statistics/fatal_road_crash_database.aspx
unfortunately they don’t record per capita or per km driven which would also be interesting.

What is galling to me is that being from another state the roads I grew up using were in much worse condition, narrower, with less visibility, yet had just as much traffic on them and a much higher speed limit than the main roads here. The speed limit on some of the roads here is almost sleep inducing.

ChrisinTurner said :

I would like the ACT to follow Victoria and make all speed cameras covert.i.e. get rid of the signs that only ensure the people paying the current fines are the illiterate. Imagine getting rid of the ‘stamp duty’ tax on moving to more suitable accommodation – paid for by speeding motorists.

I would like to go the path on getting rid of the stupid things and having extra police out there so that they also catch all the idiotic things some drivers do, you know like tailgating, overtaking on blind corners, using high beams all the time, fog lights when it’s dark, running red lights, not indicating, weaving in and out of traffic etc. all those things that a camera doesn’t do one iota to stop.

ant said :

I’m a non-parent too, and I just do the school speed limit through school zones, espcially in Qbn where there are actual police. I suspect there’s been school holidays recently, but being a non-parent I wasn’t sure so I did the limit anyway.

The problem I had, was that it was holidays in ACT, and I assumed (wrongly) that it was also across the border. The ACT 40 signs were closed up, which to a non-parent means all school is out.

astrojax said :

looking at those figures, the road toll has been remarkably static, not ‘gone up’ – esp as there is an arbitrary start date at 2001 with a blip in 2005… if you’d started in 2005, you’d have remarked how the road toll has been effectively halved;

Unfortunately, as much as we’d like to think it so, there doesnt seem to be an easy source to find road toll information, so I had to collate that information from about 20 google searches. This is part of the whole problem I think, the government just says ‘speed cameras are working’, without any real figures being available. Ive spent the evening trying to find the figures and either they dont exist, or arent published online (surprising in this era). If the government wanted to prove speed cameras work, why dont they give some hard numbers, other than the number of millions taken from the pockets of people who probably cant afford it.

astrojax said :

as for school zones, dvaey, both act and nsw have clear guidelines on the signs, which i am lead to believe are things you should be reading and digesting as you drive, no?

As I stated above, my problem wasnt a lack of guidelines, its a lack of consistency. Why do ACT students need protection between 9-3 on the roads, when NSW students dont? Is there some new rule allowing students to leave school during the day now?

edlang said :

As traffic safety, car safety and driver awareness has increased with the passage of time, so too have speed limits. On the other hand, it’s probably best to keep consistent speeds with the rest of Australia. The thought of speed tourists traveling from around the country, trying to compete with Canberrans on their day-to-day activities isn’t a fun one. If anything, our greater number of easily accessible 80km/h and 100km/h thoroughfares…

Maybe you should venture outside the ACT, and see cities like Sydney and Melbourne have 110 roads, our 80 and 100s wont attract anyone.

Now I’m having more visions this time about a whole heap (tens of thousands infact) of cars all madly trying to drive to the exacting limit in peak hours. Ouch!

Yeh! That was in my written test in 1990 (worded diff of course). Just the max limit, you can drive to the conditions, hopefully most people in similar conditions will give a wide berth anyhow. Perfect world I know 😛

Clown Killer said :

Ivan, you’re argument is flawed. The speed limit is just that – the legal limit. What happens when you
drive faster or slower will be determined by the conditions prevailing at the time.

+1

Ivan, you’re argument is flawed. The speed limit is just that – the legal limit. What happens when you
drive faster or slower will be determined by the conditions prevailing at the time.

bellaa said :

if I had been driving a little bit faster he might have missed me… but I was playing safe and driving slightly below the speed limit…

Thats not playing safe at all, playing safe is doing the speed limit, not slightly faster or slightly slower, doing the actual speed limit.

Skidd Marx said :

I love all of the conceited wankers who rather than sucking up a speeding fine (like any normal person would), choose to dispute in in court, somehow convinced they are part of the 1% who are actually succesful.

But what if they did not deserve that fine?

I was fined recently and thought something was a bit strange so went to view the image at the office in Dickson. When I asked for a print out of the image, they withdrew my fine. No excuse, just “there was an error”. I could have just paid up like some mindless sheep and added some more cash to the collection plate… but it seems those cameras are not infallible. BTW it did not change the way I drive – just made me more aware of where the cameras are.

Also, I thought I might add – I was nearly killed in a car accident a few months ago on the federal highway. Speed was not a factor. It was the inexperience of the P-plater who lost control of his vehicle and T-boned me. In fact, it has played on my mind ever since that if I had been driving a little bit faster he might have missed me… but I was playing safe and driving slightly below the speed limit…

Wraith said :

What about the tosser’s who insist on doing 20 under in the right lane, more dangerous than 20 over, causes anger, frustration and bad judgment, that’s when shit hits the fan.

See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_curve

What about the tosser’s who insist on doing 20 under in the right lane, more dangerous than 20 over, causes anger, frustration and bad judgment, that’s when shit hits the fan.

dvaey said :

since you want stats, heres the cold hard numbers..

You want the stats? You can’t handle the stats!

*chuckle*

Quokka said :

… 42 per cent strongly believe making money for the Government is their main role.

The findings are based on the responses of 3459 Victoria Police officers statewide to a landmark Herald Sun survey open to more than 11,000 serving police.”

This is just terribly, terribly sad.

I can’t believe anybody joins the police force in order to make money for the Government.

No little child dreams about doing that when they grow up.

It must be so discouraging to believe that about your work, and to feel like the community view you as little more than a tax collector.

That does make me feel sad.

dvaey said :

since you want stats, heres the cold hard numbers..

ACT: 2008: 14 – 2007: 14 – 2006: 13 – 2005: 26 – 2004: 10 – 2001: 13
Vic: 2008: 303 – 2007: 332 – 2006: 337 – 2005: 346 – 2004: 343

Looking at those figures, our road-toll has only gone up, while in comparison with victoria, their figures are going down. Maybe its coincidence, but on my weekend visits to Melbourne, I seem to see more police activity than in a whole month in Canberra.

Numbers by themselves prove nothing though. Any regular road user will tell you 90% of drivers need some sort of re-education, and current enforcement methods simply dont work. They’ll also tell you speed cameras dont make their drive any safer, despite what government says.

looking at those figures, the road toll has been remarkably static, not ‘gone up’ – esp as there is an arbitrary start date at 2001 with a blip in 2005… if you’d started in 2005, you’d have remarked how the road toll has been effectively halved; not to mention the proportion of the [rising] population across this time – lies, damn lies & statistics, huh?

drivers do need regular re-education, though. i have long held that there should be some sort of random ‘lottery’ whereby say 20% of people renewing their licence (at five year intervals in the act) prior to their fiftieth birthday should be made to submit to a driving test and questionnaire, with the proportion increasing as the age of renewee (is that a word yet?) increases.

as for school zones, dvaey, both act and nsw have clear guidelines on the signs, which i am lead to believe are things you should be reading and digesting as you drive, no?

Addison said :

I speed (a little) most days and never get caught, and cop a small fine perhaps every 5 years. Watching and being alert is more important. Peopl who think their safe cos they don’t speed are fools.

Auntyem said :

No one is safe on the roads – we all know that and now your comment has just proved it.

Addison said :

why? I indicate when I change lanes or turn, I don’t tailgate and in several hundred thousand kilometres and 20 years of driving have never had an at fault accident. Your comment proves that you are the idiot.

If your driving is anything like your grammar and attitude, we’re all in danger.

dvaey said :

As a non-parent, I find school zones to be endlessly confusing. I travel between NSW and ACT quite often, and on approach to a school Im used to looking at my clock, and only consciously think of school zones around start/end of school day. This also caught me the other day, when visiting Queanbeyan, driving through Canberra the school zones were closed, but the police were out in-force in Queanbeyan catching ACT motorists who werent aware NSW holidays are different to ACT.

I’m a non-parent too, and I just do the school speed limit through school zones, espcially in Qbn where there are actual police. I suspect there’s been school holidays recently, but being a non-parent I wasn’t sure so I did the limit anyway. People in Qbn crane their heads to see if the cops are there, and if not, they speed up.

And I bet quite a few of them are parents.

It seems it’s not just the general public who are skeptical of the primary purpose of speed cameras according to a survey of police undertaken last year:

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23520329-5014265,00.html

“MORE than 70 per cent of police believe speed and red light cameras are more about revenue-raising than road safety.

Only 6 per cent strongly believe the true purpose of the cameras is to cut the road toll.

And 42 per cent strongly believe making money for the Government is their main role.

The findings are based on the responses of 3459 Victoria Police officers statewide to a landmark Herald Sun survey open to more than 11,000 serving police.”

Outside the Airport is posted at 60, apart from the bit Guideline are toiling away at, which is 40. They could make a killing there, especially getting the NSW folk heading home of an evening. After the Fairbairn/Pialligo roundabout, it’s a speedway. They could whack a camera on the overpass and fund the rest of the roadworks, from NSW residents!

I’d love to see the general speed limits for arterial roads increased in Canberra. As traffic safety, car safety and driver awareness has increased with the passage of time, so too have speed limits. On the other hand, it’s probably best to keep consistent speeds with the rest of Australia. The thought of speed tourists traveling from around the country, trying to compete with Canberrans on their day-to-day activities isn’t a fun one. If anything, our greater number of easily accessible 80km/h and 100km/h thoroughfares probably contributes to the exportation of a large number of ACT drivers who are poorly suited to other states’ local conditions…

As a cyclist, I think there should be no cars on the road! 🙂

Lobster, I do disagree with your points on speed cameras. I believe they are a deterrent to speeding and have an effect on the amount of collisions. While I agree this is not true for everyone, it does matter to a portion of drivers and to that end, the cameras can’t be written off as useless.

Our road toll has averaged about 14 deaths per year over the last few years, but this is not a true indication of consequences of collisions. Add to that number those who suffer life changing injuries, then consider the costs this has on us. Not only the burden and greif this causes relatives and friends, but also the resources involved. The emergency services at the initial scene, the medical costs, the effect on insurance to name a few. I don’t have the answer but consider the true cost, financial or otherwise. There’s an often overlooked reason deterrents like speed cameras are installed.

Hey Woody,

Some positive comment from you would be a revelation.

Along the lines of how you have statistics to prove speed cameras have reduced the road toll by some measurable ammount.

How the speed cameras have reduced speeding by a measurable ammount.

How we self incriminating speedsters have contributed to the exchequer to such a degree that the ACT is at no risk of falling into deficit.

Sir, you are a misery. You are unable to write a positive comment about this subject. Denigration seems to be your forte.

To the point where I avoid reading your comments.

You will be conceivably proud of this reaction. I can do without you.

Auntyem said :

Addison said :

I speed (a little) most days and never get caught, and cop a small fine perhaps every 5 years. Watching and being alert is more important. Peopl who think their safe cos they don’t speed are fools.

No one is safe on the roads – we all know that and now your comment has just proved it.

why? I indicate when I change lanes or turn, I don’t tailgate and in several hundred thousand kilometres and 20 years of driving have never had an at fault accident. Your comment proves that you are the idiot.

And WMC, you asked for stats and got them. Instead of attacking the poster, why don’t you respond to the issue. Hint – have a look at NT’s stats…

arescarti42 said :

Rather than 10 percent of the population getting 1 ticket each year, I think you’ll find it is probably a much smaller percentage of morons that get multiple tickets.

Which simply proves that the system is flawed anyway. What happened to demerit points, where repeat offenders could be caught out? This is another issue, if police actively dealt with drivers, theyd be aware of who the common offenders are. Not that the ACT justice system will deal with them anyway, but we’ve gotta go back to the good ol days one step at a time.

Looking at those figures, our road-toll has only gone up

Looking at that statement, you know absolutely nothing about statistics.

I don’t remember ANY accidents

Because they all happen when you’re there to see them.

Glad to see the anti-camera crowd is still attracting our best and brightest minds. Of course, you’re also the ones paying all the fines, so guess it’s not much of a surprise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Clarkson lists his residences as ‘Chipping Norton, England; Langness, Isle Of Man’..

Some rich people own more than one house, news at 11.

dvaey said :

Im also curious, if a camera pulls in say 3 million, assume an average of $150 per ticket, thats 20k tickets, per camera. If 10% of the population are being caught by a camera, surely you should look at the whole situation, rather than just stick more money-makers in.

Rather than 10 percent of the population getting 1 ticket each year, I think you’ll find it is probably a much smaller percentage of morons that get multiple tickets.

Nah, Chipping Norton is next to Liverpool, SW Sydney.

I would like the ACT to follow Victoria and make all speed cameras covert.i.e. get rid of the signs that only ensure the people paying the current fines are the illiterate. Imagine getting rid of the ‘stamp duty’ tax on moving to more suitable accommodation – paid for by speeding motorists.

What I love is the Police warn drivers of upcoming speed camera vans.

But Jeremy Clarkson of BBC’s Top Gear lives on the Isle Of Man in Britain & he has said the Isle of MAN has NO speed cameras & 0 death toll.

Also the death toll for NT has risen since a speed limit was imposed on NT highways.

since you want stats, heres the cold hard numbers..

ACT: 2008: 14 – 2007: 14 – 2006: 13 – 2005: 26 – 2004: 10 – 2001: 13
Vic: 2008: 303 – 2007: 332 – 2006: 337 – 2005: 346 – 2004: 343

Looking at those figures, our road-toll has only gone up, while in comparison with victoria, their figures are going down. Maybe its coincidence, but on my weekend visits to Melbourne, I seem to see more police activity than in a whole month in Canberra.

Numbers by themselves prove nothing though. Any regular road user will tell you 90% of drivers need some sort of re-education, and current enforcement methods simply dont work. They’ll also tell you speed cameras dont make their drive any safer, despite what government says.

The telling thing though, isnt that the road toll has gone up slightly, but with all the expense on road-safety, and with all the money coming in from speed cameras that should be (but probably isnt) spent on road-safety, what role do the cameras serve? They havent even reduced the number of accidents at sites theyre located at.

Driving up the parkway on Saturday arvo, everyone legally accelerated up to 100 except for one car in the right hand lane. The dissimilar speed was the problem, no speeding was involved.

I would be interested in seeing the stats on the reduction in accidents on the major roads inflicted with speed cameras.

I don’t remember ANY accidents in the stretch of Monaro Highway or the Parkway (apart from merging/roundabout type accidents) covered by these cameras.

The majority of fatalities over the past year or so have involved elderly drivers, major medical emergency, and, I suspect, suicide.

But the cameras are nice little earners. Don’t include the Police, because they talk to drivers, and may only issue a warning. No money in that. Better the totally impersonal cameras – click, your guilty, pay up.

Revenue raising, pure and simple. Self inflicted taxation? No! Manipulation by the authorities under the cloak of road safety to maximise the take.

Woody #31 + 1

lobster said :

Punter:

Ever since the speed cameras have been installed the road toll has only gone up.

Lobster – I’m wondering if it’s occurred to you that the number of drivers and cars on the roads in the ACT has also increased significantly between 1999 (when the cameras were introduced) and now. Your strange statistics may be very one-sided.

Sorry I think I was thinking you said something else, was just commenting that there are still smashes left right and centre.

*go

Just got out to Pickles once a week hey.

i am sorry where did we all forget our sense of responsibility…you speed you should pay, giving the ACT war chest a boost. I relish in the thought that idiots speed and thereby give over a bit of their paypacket for the ‘right’ to speed and endanger others…pretty much all the population here do speed and should be caught out at some point. Look forward to being told it is our right to break the law lol

Ever since the speed cameras have been installed the road toll has only gone up.

Oh, fine, I’ll bite. Got any stats to show an increase in the road toll since the introduction of speed cameras? Coz I’ve got plenty of links to independent studies that show the opposite effect for road crashes, injuries and fatalities in Australia and overseas.

Yep agree with you there dvaey. It can be confusing and I get quite a lot more insistent on these blokes if it’s starting and finishing times at school. I consider the other times practise for getting it in the mindset.

Punter:
I again say that I don’t think that you should be able to go whatever speed you want whenever you want.

I think that speed cameras are stupid and don’t serve a purpose.

They don’t slow people down.

And the don’t stop accidents.

Ever since the speed cameras have been installed the road toll has only gone up.

Clown Killer said :

I was going to suggest that if you wanted a real road safety outcome rather than just cynical revenue raising then you could install a camera outside every school … but that would only work on the assumption that you’d have to be an idiot to speed past a clearly marked speed camera, which is plainly not the case.

I think these would be a better place for cameras, to catch those who blatantly disregard the rules. Saying ‘I didnt see the speed change because the sign was behind a tree’ is more of an excuse than ‘I didnt see the school’… however…

Hells_Bells74 said :

I was just telling my man that they should be in school zones (most men w’out school aged kids I’ve had the pleasure or unpleasure of driving with through them are completely oblivious until I point them out.

As a non-parent, I find school zones to be endlessly confusing. I travel between NSW and ACT quite often, and on approach to a school Im used to looking at my clock, and only consciously think of school zones around start/end of school day. This also caught me the other day, when visiting Queanbeyan, driving through Canberra the school zones were closed, but the police were out in-force in Queanbeyan catching ACT motorists who werent aware NSW holidays are different to ACT.

If we took a leaf from the NSW book, and made speed limits only during school arrival/departure times, I think the fines could be more justified. Fining someone for speeding at 8:45am is different to speeding at 12:30.

I would further add to Horrid #11 that speeding is often the difference between minor and serious injury. Lobster #13, if you’re the sort of person who thinks speeding can be justified, then it’s only a matter of time before you’ll need cutting out of a wreck. There is no reason drivers should have to pay fines because they should not be speeding in the first place. Cameras may not be the answer but what is?

Maybe the problem isnt that people are ‘ignorant’ of speed signs, but that people expect roads to be consistent. Id also be interested to find how many offenders are interstate visitors, who arent used to driving down a road that changes speed 3 times in the space of a few hundred meters, before a camera. Barton highway, where it changes from 100 to 80 to 100 to 80, around the speed cameras is a graet example. The only change on that road, is going from single 100km/hr to dual 80km/hr, perfect for catching unsuspecting tourists.

For my own, my only ever camera fine, was travelling at 60km/hr along the road to the west belconnen tip. A road which is signposted as 50km/hr, with houses only on one side of the street, set well-back from the road on their own service lane, and a golf-course well-back on the other side.

Im also curious, if a camera pulls in say 3 million, assume an average of $150 per ticket, thats 20k tickets, per camera. If 10% of the population are being caught by a camera, surely you should look at the whole situation, rather than just stick more money-makers in. As far as Ive been aware, speed drivers are still being killed on occasion on our roads, and Ive seen many accidents on roads watched by speed cameras, where the camera has proved irrelevant to the accident, due to only being installed in the highest revenue-raising direction. (Marconi/Drakeford, Im talking about you)

farnarkler said :

Lobster, those who decide that they’ll ignore speed limits will get more and more fines in the mail. It would be nice if serial speeders had their cars taken away and crushed. Unfortunately this government hasn’t got the balls to do that.

We have ways of making you baulk!

Primal said :

Never mind more cameras, just remove the excessive signage and let the current cameras generate a bit more $$$!

A successful parasite doesn’t kill off its host.

To be honest, I’m probably bi-polar when it comes to speeding. In and around town I rarely exceed the posted limit and in fact often drive below it, on the other hand I do an awful lot of coutry and highway driving too and I will often drive above the posted limit.

I don’t apologise for what I do, but I don’t make excuses either, and if I get a fine (three in 22 years of driving) that’s just somthing I have to deal with because of the choices I make.

Addison said :

I speed (a little) most days and never get caught, and cop a small fine perhaps every 5 years. Watching and being alert is more important. Peopl who think their safe cos they don’t speed are fools.

No one is safe on the roads – we all know that and now your comment has just proved it.

Oops displeasure as opposed to unpleasure.. Terrible Hells!

I speed (a little) most days and never get caught, and cop a small fine perhaps every 5 years. Watching and being alert is more important. Peopl who think their safe cos they don’t speed are fools.

Clown Killer said :

I was going to suggest that if you wanted a real road safety outcome rather than just cynical revenue raising then you could install a camera outside every school … but that would only work on the assumption that you’d have to be an idiot to speed past a clearly marked speed camera, which is plainly not the case.

I was just telling my man that they should be in school zones (most men w’out school aged kids I’ve had the pleasure or unpleasure of driving with through them are completely oblivious until I point them out, even after several times and the mum’s at St Vincent’s Primary, shame on them speeding through their own kids zone so often when dropping them off). They could put the revenue back into the kids road safety programs or fixed lights etc and not into lining the fat federal pocket. Not to mention they would be safer after a few months of fines dolled out.

I’ve always thought a red light camera would be very profitable on the intersection of Limestone and Donaldson/Chisholm Streets (Ainslie Primary School). The cars go through (Limestone) long after the light is red and have nearly cleaned up kids walking to school many times over the years – but all they’ve done to try and prevent an accident is delay the pedestrian walk signs by a couple of seconds. I guess they think this is good enough until someone (probably a child) is killed and then they might scratch their heads and try to figure out how to make it a safer crossing.

Another good place would be Ballumbir Street in Braddon where there are four sets of traffic lights and idiots are constantly looking at the traffic lights up ahead instead of the ones they’re going through (nearly been cleaned up there myself a few times).

Lobster, those who decide that they’ll ignore speed limits will get more and more fines in the mail. It would be nice if serial speeders had their cars taken away and crushed. Unfortunately this government hasn’t got the balls to do that.

I love all of the conceited wankers who rather than sucking up a speeding fine (like any normal person would), choose to dispute in in court, somehow convinced they are part of the 1% who are actually succesful.

Put the cameras in spots where accidents frequently happen due to speed then they might do some good as well as raise money.

The speed limit on a number of roads* around Canberra should also be increased as they are so stupidly low that most people ignore them anyway.

* meaning 4 lane (or greater) divided roads with shallow curves, good visibility, wide shoulders and good surfaces

Never mind more cameras, just remove the excessive signage and let the current cameras generate a bit more $$$!

a stretch of the Monaro Highway at Hume is proving to be a profitable speed trap

I love it when dumb-ar.es speed toward this camera, slow down, then speed past – completely oblivious to the van operating on the side of the road near the Mugga Lane lights that already snapped their plates.

Horrid said :

The “speeding doesn’t cause accidents” manatra is the chant of the terminally stupid.

Simple Fact: no matter how alert, competent, quick reacting, concentrating etc etc you are, the faster you are going, the less time you have to avoid a crash if anything goes wrong. Being above or below the speed limit is all too often the difference between stopping/taking avoiding action in time or too late. Speeding may not cause the potential accident, but it is often the difference between having it or not.

Of course this presupposes that the nominated speed limit is matched to that particular piece of road. Lots of 80’s could be safely driven at 90 etc. I speed at times when I believe it is safe for others and my pocket and accept that if I get fined it is a drivers tax. I might change my behavior when I get up to 6 points simply to ensure my licence.

Using your logic we should still be driving at walking speed or do you accept some level of risk?

The fact that such a large number of drivers are caught shows that we aren’t all anally retentive on soma.

“The speeding does cause accidents” is a mantra for arrogant self important tossers.

The number of accidents in ACT has only gone up since speed cameras have been introduced.
So, they aren’t working.

If you are one of those “Every K over is a killer” people who believes that the government scientifically formulates speed limits to be JUST under the kill threshold you are a brainless sheep.

I don’t think that you should be allowed to go as fast as you want everywhere.

I just think that speed cameras aren’t the answer.

Getting a fine in the mail a month after you sped does not slow you down.

If the police pulled you over for speeding, you could at least justify why you were speeding to the officer why you were speeding before getting fined.
Then if they did fine you, you would actually slow down afterwards.

No, lets not let road safety muddy the waters.

Just impose an unrealistically low speed limit, and let human nature take care of the exchequer.

We have had a number of comments on these pages regarding the imposition of fines for about 8k’s over the limit on the Monaro in the 80 zone. Funnily, no reports of fines from the 100k zone cameras on the same road. (and no mention in the CT article either).

Like shooting ducks in a barrel really.

The “speeding doesn’t cause accidents” manatra is the chant of the terminally stupid.

Simple Fact: no matter how alert, competent, quick reacting, concentrating etc etc you are, the faster you are going, the less time you have to avoid a crash if anything goes wrong. Being above or below the speed limit is all too often the difference between stopping/taking avoiding action in time or too late. Speeding may not cause the potential accident, but it is often the difference between having it or not.

Who cares about road safety, it’s a working model for discretionary taxation.

Millions of dollars that people choose to pay. Reducing the burden on those who choose not to.

Anyone see ACA this week? There was something about how Victoria’s calibration certificates were signed off by a non-existent company.

The article also mentions that 2000+ challenges were successful. (They didn’t say whether this incldes people transfering blame)

So… with all these fines going out, I assume the ACT fatality rate is the lowest that it has ever been?

Wrong.
Speed cameras atually don’t slow people down.
And on top of that – speed isn’t the cause of most accidents anyway.

Point to point speed camera’s will definitely slow down the parkway, most people still average 115+.

I always thought that the speed camera locations were so well signposted that they couldn’t possibly be revenue raisers. Obviously I’ve underestimated the ability of people to drive with their head up their arse. Although I think most of the money would come from the traffic light cameras. They don’t seem to be as ‘advertised’ as much as the speed only cameras.

Cameras in school zones sound like a good idea but I the problem is that people tend to watch their speedo a bit more when driving past a camera, taking their eyes away from looking out for any kids.

Accident blackspots would be a good idea – like they are mostly used for in NSW.

I’d love to see cameras set up along roadwork sites that are there for a while. Sites like Drakeford Drive duplication, Yamba Dr traffic lights. The amount of people that would be caught would pay for the work in its first week.

But the ACT Government are working towards those Point to Point speed cameras with a tender for consultation open recently. They will make a hell of a lot more money (if positioned well).

Anywhere along Majura Rd. That seems to be a speedway on weekends.

I was going to suggest that if you wanted a real road safety outcome rather than just cynical revenue raising then you could install a camera outside every school … but that would only work on the assumption that you’d have to be an idiot to speed past a clearly marked speed camera, which is plainly not the case.

another cash cow would be a chap armed with a sturdy pair of boots, a pen in good working order and a fines book with a supply of nifty yellow envelopes, and him set forth to seek out selfish arrogance where it lurks and turn it to the city’s coffers good. (or her, of course. ‘he’ as rendered simply for effect.)

Ellenborough Street in Kaleen, just before the Gungahlin drive overpass. They’d make millions there.