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Teacher protest 2011 style

johnboy 27 September 2011 70

civic square protest

They came to Civic Square, they waved their red flags, they lurched slowly left to right in time to John Lennon covers, they congratulated each other for being there, and they were very sure that giving themselves more money is in the best interests of the future of civilisation.

They really don’t like funding for football teams, which is fair enough, but in the 5 mintues I was there while football was brought up many times there was less explanation of the benefit to education of spending more money on teachers.

A strain of luddism was in the air, referring (IIRC) to computers as “infernal machines”. (It’s only been an education trend for 30+years, surely coming to grips with computers should have been part of their own professional development?)

Every 30 seconds or so one school or other was congratulated on getting 100% of their membership to the rally. The cynic in me wondered how this was being verified.

The protest markers were not entirely filled by bodies, which makes one wonder if turnout was below expectations.

They did, however, appear to be having a wonderful spring morning. No doubt their students felt the same way.

Here’s a slideshow of pictures I took at the rally.


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70 Responses to Teacher protest 2011 style
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chewy14 chewy14 4:02 pm 28 Sep 11

A poll of 400 Canberrans commissioned by the AEU and conducted by indpendent research company, Kudos Research, found 88% of Canberrans support pay parity with NSW (http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/teachers-set-to-flood-citys-heart-in-protest/2304821.aspx).

I’d be interested to see what the question asked in this survey was.
I’m thinking it would have been along the lines of:
“ACT teachers get paid less than NSW teachers, do you think they should be paid equally?”
rather than,
“ACT teachers get paid more than (insert state here) teachers, do you think that ACT teachers should be paid even more?”

As for a Canberra Times online poll, LOL.

Teachers, go nuts – strike all you want.
I just doubt that the local community will support you all that much. Especially if it starts affecting local parents. We all know how high the self interest is in this town.

Jim Jones Jim Jones 3:56 pm 28 Sep 11

Ben_Dover said :

Jim Jones said :

[I never stated that my anecdotal evidence was indicative of general public opinion – in fact, I stated baldly that “that probably says as much about the people I mix with as it does about public perception of the strike”. (Which was answered by the usual right-wingers with howls of derision for anyone who would dare support pay parity for ACT teachers).

[huge amounts of sarcasm]It’s really bad when people put words into your mouth isn’t it Jim? [/huge amounts of sarcasm]

It’s all because I’m a secret agent of the PC-driven, left-wing, ‘equality industry’. We’re out to ruin the world, don’t you know?

Ben_Dover Ben_Dover 3:54 pm 28 Sep 11

Jim Jones said :

[I never stated that my anecdotal evidence was indicative of general public opinion – in fact, I stated baldly that “that probably says as much about the people I mix with as it does about public perception of the strike”. (Which was answered by the usual right-wingers with howls of derision for anyone who would dare support pay parity for ACT teachers).

[huge amounts of sarcasm]It’s really bad when people put words into your mouth isn’t it Jim? [/huge amounts of sarcasm]

Jim Jones Jim Jones 3:51 pm 28 Sep 11

Oh please please pleeeease say something about the education sector being run by evil, lefty, feminazi, PC, gay agenda blah blah blah whatever.

It would just make everything so perfect.

Jim Jones Jim Jones 3:42 pm 28 Sep 11

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

I don’t know who you hang around with, Jim, but I’d wager they aren’t totally informed on the issue – especially if you’re asking the questions.

Parents and teachers who think that ACT teachers should be paid in parity with their colleagues in other states are ill-informed, are they?

Teachers are hardly going to have a fair an impartial perspective on the matter.

As for parents, I doubt very much that many of them even know what a teacher in NSW or the ACT earns or how many hours a week they work. So yes, I’m betting that most of them are ill-informed.

So teachers and parents are ill-informed then. Parents know too little about teachers, and teachers apparently know too much. Presumably we should be looking to disinterested teenagers or something for advice on education policy.

I’m suggesting that people should be presented with the whole picture (a concept I know you struggle to understand) before we place any importance on their conclusions. I doubt you gave them any information regarding current rates of pay before you conducted your iron-clad and apparently statistically sound research.

I’m also suggesting that if the people you associate with are anything like yourself, we probably shouldn’t listen to them at all.

Let me get this straight – when discussing levels of public support for a strike by teachers in the ACT, we should disregard the actual levels of public support by the actual people of the ACT … because they’re all misinformed?

Did I get that right?

Not really even close. Pay attention, now, and maybe you’ll get it…

You made a comment about asking your friends if teachers should be paid at the NSW rate, and them all agreeing with you. You also implied foolishly that your anecdotal evidence must be indicative of the general opinion of the entire ACT public.

I suggested that your friends probably don’t even know the details of the situation (and that you would most certainly neglect to get them enough information to make an INFORMED decision), and as such should not be considered:

a) an accurate representation of the ACT public, or
b) an accurate representation of an informed group of people.

I also implied that the teachers (which I don’t believe you even spoke to, despite what you say) that you referred to will say whatever they think will result in more money, and as such shouldn’t be considered a fair representation of the ACT public’s stance on the issue.

Did I dumb that down enough for you? Would you like me to draw you a picture? I can link to some dictionary definitions of the word “informed”, if you’d like.

Epic fail dude.

I never stated that my anecdotal evidence was indicative of general public opinion – in fact, I stated baldly that “that probably says as much about the people I mix with as it does about public perception of the strike”. (Which was answered by the usual right-wingers with howls of derision for anyone who would dare support pay parity for ACT teachers).

If you want info on the public opinion towards the action why not look at Tom Greenwell’s post in a related thread:

“In a Canberra Times online poll (http://www.canberratimes.com.au/polls/) over 52.6% of respondents agree that “Yes they should strike. ACT teachers deserve pay parity with NSW.
(52.6%)”. A further 22.6% think that “ACT teachers deserve equal pay, but they shouldn’t take strike action that might disadvantage students.”.

A poll of 400 Canberrans commissioned by the AEU and conducted by indpendent research company, Kudos Research, found 88% of Canberrans support pay parity with NSW (http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/teachers-set-to-flood-citys-heart-in-protest/2304821.aspx).

The ACT P&C has repeatedly expressed support for the teachers’ campaign, including at yesterday’s rally.”

But don’t let that influence your opinion. Obviously you know best.

Mysteryman Mysteryman 3:29 pm 28 Sep 11

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

I don’t know who you hang around with, Jim, but I’d wager they aren’t totally informed on the issue – especially if you’re asking the questions.

Parents and teachers who think that ACT teachers should be paid in parity with their colleagues in other states are ill-informed, are they?

Teachers are hardly going to have a fair an impartial perspective on the matter.

As for parents, I doubt very much that many of them even know what a teacher in NSW or the ACT earns or how many hours a week they work. So yes, I’m betting that most of them are ill-informed.

So teachers and parents are ill-informed then. Parents know too little about teachers, and teachers apparently know too much. Presumably we should be looking to disinterested teenagers or something for advice on education policy.

I’m suggesting that people should be presented with the whole picture (a concept I know you struggle to understand) before we place any importance on their conclusions. I doubt you gave them any information regarding current rates of pay before you conducted your iron-clad and apparently statistically sound research.

I’m also suggesting that if the people you associate with are anything like yourself, we probably shouldn’t listen to them at all.

Let me get this straight – when discussing levels of public support for a strike by teachers in the ACT, we should disregard the actual levels of public support by the actual people of the ACT … because they’re all misinformed?

Did I get that right?

Not really even close. Pay attention, now, and maybe you’ll get it…

You made a comment about asking your friends if teachers should be paid at the NSW rate, and them all agreeing with you. You also implied foolishly that your anecdotal evidence must be indicative of the general opinion of the entire ACT public.

I suggested that your friends probably don’t even know the details of the situation (and that you would most certainly neglect to get them enough information to make an INFORMED decision), and as such should not be considered:

a) an accurate representation of the ACT public, or
b) an accurate representation of an informed group of people.

I also implied that the teachers (which I don’t believe you even spoke to, despite what you say) that you referred to will say whatever they think will result in more money, and as such shouldn’t be considered a fair representation of the ACT public’s stance on the issue.

Did I dumb that down enough for you? Would you like me to draw you a picture? I can link to some dictionary definitions of the word “informed”, if you’d like.

Ben_Dover Ben_Dover 3:21 pm 28 Sep 11

Mysteryman said :

I’m also suggesting that if the people you associate with are anything like yourself, we probably shouldn’t listen to them at all.

+1

Jim Jones Jim Jones 3:01 pm 28 Sep 11

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

I don’t know who you hang around with, Jim, but I’d wager they aren’t totally informed on the issue – especially if you’re asking the questions.

Parents and teachers who think that ACT teachers should be paid in parity with their colleagues in other states are ill-informed, are they?

Teachers are hardly going to have a fair an impartial perspective on the matter.

As for parents, I doubt very much that many of them even know what a teacher in NSW or the ACT earns or how many hours a week they work. So yes, I’m betting that most of them are ill-informed.

So teachers and parents are ill-informed then. Parents know too little about teachers, and teachers apparently know too much. Presumably we should be looking to disinterested teenagers or something for advice on education policy.

I’m suggesting that people should be presented with the whole picture (a concept I know you struggle to understand) before we place any importance on their conclusions. I doubt you gave them any information regarding current rates of pay before you conducted your iron-clad and apparently statistically sound research.

I’m also suggesting that if the people you associate with are anything like yourself, we probably shouldn’t listen to them at all.

Let me get this straight – when discussing levels of public support for a strike by teachers in the ACT, we should disregard the actual levels of public support by the actual people of the ACT … because they’re all misinformed?

Did I get that right?

Mysteryman Mysteryman 2:55 pm 28 Sep 11

johnboy said :

I can’t help but think pay parity has not been an issue in the last 11 years we’ve been watching this space.

Was there a push for parity at times NSW was earning less?

Of course there wasn’t. There isn’t a push for parity with the states that currently pay less, either.

Mysteryman Mysteryman 2:54 pm 28 Sep 11

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

I don’t know who you hang around with, Jim, but I’d wager they aren’t totally informed on the issue – especially if you’re asking the questions.

Parents and teachers who think that ACT teachers should be paid in parity with their colleagues in other states are ill-informed, are they?

Teachers are hardly going to have a fair an impartial perspective on the matter.

As for parents, I doubt very much that many of them even know what a teacher in NSW or the ACT earns or how many hours a week they work. So yes, I’m betting that most of them are ill-informed.

So teachers and parents are ill-informed then. Parents know too little about teachers, and teachers apparently know too much. Presumably we should be looking to disinterested teenagers or something for advice on education policy.

I’m suggesting that people should be presented with the whole picture (a concept I know you struggle to understand) before we place any importance on their conclusions. I doubt you gave them any information regarding current rates of pay before you conducted your iron-clad and apparently statistically sound research.

I’m also suggesting that if the people you associate with are anything like yourself, we probably shouldn’t listen to them at all.

Jim Jones Jim Jones 2:44 pm 28 Sep 11

Mysteryman said :

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

I don’t know who you hang around with, Jim, but I’d wager they aren’t totally informed on the issue – especially if you’re asking the questions.

Parents and teachers who think that ACT teachers should be paid in parity with their colleagues in other states are ill-informed, are they?

Teachers are hardly going to have a fair an impartial perspective on the matter.

As for parents, I doubt very much that many of them even know what a teacher in NSW or the ACT earns or how many hours a week they work. So yes, I’m betting that most of them are ill-informed.

So teachers and parents are ill-informed then. Parents know too little about teachers, and teachers apparently know too much. Presumably we should be looking to disinterested teenagers or something for advice on education policy.

Mysteryman Mysteryman 2:32 pm 28 Sep 11

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

I don’t know who you hang around with, Jim, but I’d wager they aren’t totally informed on the issue – especially if you’re asking the questions.

Parents and teachers who think that ACT teachers should be paid in parity with their colleagues in other states are ill-informed, are they?

Teachers are hardly going to have a fair an impartial perspective on the matter.

As for parents, I doubt very much that many of them even know what a teacher in NSW or the ACT earns or how many hours a week they work. So yes, I’m betting that most of them are ill-informed.

Jim Jones Jim Jones 1:44 pm 28 Sep 11

Mysteryman said :

I don’t know who you hang around with, Jim, but I’d wager they aren’t totally informed on the issue – especially if you’re asking the questions.

Parents and teachers who think that ACT teachers should be paid in parity with their colleagues in other states are ill-informed, are they?

johnboy johnboy 1:44 pm 28 Sep 11

I can’t help but think pay parity has not been an issue in the last 11 years we’ve been watching this space.

Was there a push for parity at times NSW was earning less?

pierce pierce 1:34 pm 28 Sep 11

I’m seeing a number of comments along the lines of “people won’t support teachers if they are inconvenienced by their actions”

To what extent exactly are these people going out of their way to support teachers – by contacting local MLAs in support of the pay claims etc – in between these actions?

Jim Jones Jim Jones 1:33 pm 28 Sep 11

Ben_Dover said :

People will not support teachers if they are put out by a strike. If teachers are seen to be making their protest in a way which does not interfere with the school day, or with the parents work, then people are more likely to support them.

That theory has a massive hole in it, and is pretty conclusively disproven by the levels of community support for the action being taken. Stats have been provided earlier.

And in what world does a strike that doesn’t affect anyone have any efficacy?

You’ve been provided with both anecdotal evidence *and* some cited stats on community support for the action, yet your response to a poster was “why not STFU and listen”?

So, could these stats and anecdotal “evidence” not be improved on?

Yes, no doubt more community support could be garnered – but the group is attempting to achieve an objective (pay parity), which needs to target the government, as well as the public at large. Having public support alone isn’t enough to change anything.

Ben_Dover Ben_Dover 1:21 pm 28 Sep 11

Jim Jones said :

Ben_Dover said :

Why not join in the debate Jim?

A debate that consists of you telling people to STFU and listen?

It was a question Jim. Not a statement. If people are making mistakes, then it is in their interest to learn.
People will not support teachers if they are put out by a strike. If teachers are seen to be making their protest in a way which does not interfere with the school day, or with the parents work, then people are more likely to support them.

You’ve been provided with both anecdotal evidence *and* some cited stats on community support for the action, yet your response to a poster was “why not STFU and listen”?

So, could these stats and anecdotal “evidence” not be improved on?

Mysteryman Mysteryman 12:35 pm 28 Sep 11

Jim Jones said :

Ben_Dover said :

Gerry-Built said :

Mysteryman said :

Usually when industrial action inconveniences me, though, I tend to get more annoying with the strikers and I’m less likely to side with them.

wow. It must be truly inconvenient for parents to have to look after their own children. You know, whilst a profession fights to keep standards high for the future for the profession and education system.

When people point out to you that your strike is counter productive as it is alienating the group whose support you need most, why not STFU and listen?

A quick ask-around about attitudes towards the teacher’s strike at a few workplaces and friends/family saw a unanimous reply of ‘just give them more money’.

Don’t know how you interpret that as ‘counter productive and alienating the group whose support you need most’.

I’d suggest that you need to STFU and listen instead of making assumptions that don’t appear to be even slightly on the money.

I don’t know who you hang around with, Jim, but I’d wager they aren’t totally informed on the issue – especially if you’re asking the questions.

Jim Jones Jim Jones 11:44 am 28 Sep 11

Ben_Dover said :

Why not join in the debate Jim?

A debate that consists of you telling people to STFU and listen?

You’ve been provided with both anecdotal evidence *and* some cited stats on community support for the action, yet your response to a poster was “why not STFU and listen”?

Erg0 Erg0 10:30 am 28 Sep 11

Jim Jones said :

A quick ask-around about attitudes towards the teacher’s strike at a few workplaces and friends/family saw a unanimous reply of ‘just give them more money’.

It’s funny how people are so quick to take this position when they (incorrectly) think that it’s not going to cost them any money. Contrast this to the inevitable bleating whenever childcare workers ask for an increase in their meagre wage.

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