9 January 2009

The first HMAS Canberra in colour

| johnboy
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The all-seeing eye of RiotACT spotted a new blog entry on the first HMAS Canberra, lost at the Battle of Savo Island and now a good chunk of the iron in the Iron Bottom Sound.

The entry isn’t remarkable for it’s information, the wikipedia entry has much more. But I’ve never seen such a good colour photograph of the old girl before.

So there you go.

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Smackbang said :

“The old girl”??

Seriously, who talks like that?

Pretty much everybody who worked or still works in, or with, ships. I hear it all the time at work.

@Granny – totally agree. Staff used to stand at the entrance to the Tomb to ensure men/boys removed their hats and that noise was kept to a minimum. They seem to have stopped this practice. The original concept for the AWM was that families of the dead needed somewhere to go to pay their respects as travel to Turkey, France etc. to visit actual graves (if they even existed) was at that time beyond the means of most of those that lost loved ones. The AWM is therefore first and foremast a memorial and should be treated as sacred ground. Over time though as the collection has grown the ‘sacred ground’ aspect has, I feel, shrunk to encompass only the Roll of Honour, Pool of Reflection and of course the Tomb. This area must continue be respected for what it was intended to be – a surrogate grave (for lack of better words) for those that died.

By way of comparison, if anybody ever has the chance I strongly encourage a visit to Arlington Cemetery in the US. The history contained in the place is amazing and it includes victims of almost every major incident in US history from the Civil war on. A visit to the US Tombs of the Unknowns there (there are four tombs but the Vietnam one is now empty thanks to DNA testing identified the body) is a must especially at the time of changing of the guard. That’s right they have a guard – and they are armed. The only qualification harder to get in the US military than that of ‘Tomb Guard’ is that of astronaut. These guys have paced 21 step backward and forwards 24/7 everyday of the year for decades (even during major life-threatening storms) to honour the memory of those symbolised at these tombs. At the end of every 21 step they about-face and change the weapon to the side closest to the viewing gallery and then they start the routine again. They keep the weapon on the side of the crowd to remind everybody that as that they will protect these graves from everybody. And that people, to me, is respect.

If you’re interested, see: http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/tombofun.htm

OT: I just love the colour pics and movies of WWI and II that can be accessed now. occasionally.

Surely the staff must have some recourse?

If we can keep our public libraries reasonably quiet and orderly I can’t understand why we can’t manage to do so in a public space such as the war memorial.

I also think we should speak up as citizens and make others aware of how their actions are causing us to feel.

Admittance should be subject to certain conditions of behaviour, and visitors should be shown the door by security if they continue to behave with disrespect.

I should add that I have noticed that foreign tourists often also speak inappropriately loudly at the War Memorial, usually in large tours, and I think the tour guides should take more responsibility for explaining that this can be upsetting to Australians.

“The old girl”??

Seriously, who talks like that?

johnboy said :

But I think most of that rumour comes from the damage on the wreck. Close reading of the accounts of the battle shows she was sunk by american gunfire after being evacuated to put her out of her misery. Which explains the damage from the allied side of the line.

the 2 us destroyers were the Selfridge and Ellet. They fired five torpedoes, plus several shells.

here is the link on the recount of the battle and sinking, i remembered reading about this a while ago in hardcopy:

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-navy/canberra-lost.htm

It’s certainly possible Canberra took some US fire, she was using the same light semaphore signalling system as the japanese rather than the US reliance on voice radio (significant pros and cons both ways). You have to remember that until 1921 the Japanese and Australian navies were both part of the same British Imperial naval structure.

So in an emergency at night the Australian ship would have looked a lot more like the Japanese ships than their new allies.

But I think most of that rumour comes from the damage on the wreck. Close reading of the accounts of the battle shows she was sunk by american gunfire after being evacuated to put her out of her misery. Which explains the damage from the allied side of the line.

Skidbladnir said :

I have slightly less of an issue with kids climbing over the memorials than I do with the parents who idly watched while their kids took off their shoes and climbed into the Pool of Reflection at the Australian War Memorial so they could fill their pockets with the small change.

AWM staff had to come and scream at the children to get out of the Pool, because their parents obviously didn’t care.

WTF!? I don’t actually have any other words to say how angry that makes me.

I took my 4 and 6 year old to the AWM while off work last week. Before going to see the Tomb of the Unknown I sat them down in the Cafe and we spoke about what it was, why it was and how they had to behave in there. We walked in there and I couldnt believe what I was experiencing. Adults and kids alike were talking out loud, kids were running around etc. When we left I told my kids how proud I was of them, they behaved perfectly and didn’t make a sound the whole time. I spoke to a guide there about the behavour of the others and was told they hate it too but can’t do anything about it as it’s a public place.

JB, thanks for posting the Pic. As an ex-pusser I love that stuff. ‘Grey Funnel Line’ ships of that period certianly look more majestic than current vessels.

I have slightly less of an issue with kids climbing over the memorials than I do with the parents who idly watched while their kids took off their shoes and climbed into the Pool of Reflection at the Australian War Memorial so they could fill their pockets with the small change.

AWM staff had to come and scream at the children to get out of the Pool, because their parents obviously didn’t care.

neanderthalsis1:16 pm 09 Jan 09

Mr Evil said :

By the way, there has always been a suspicion in some circles that the HMAS Canberra was actually shelled by a USN ship during the wild melee that followed the Japanese incursion into the Allied fleet’s lines.

Incoming friendly fire has right of way…

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

{rant}

Could people keep their bloody kids (or worse, themselves) from climbing all over the Canberra’s memorial? Seems like every time I wander buy I have to wait for some group of gaggling yokels to wait for little Typhani and Jette to finish climbing the anchor chain and get their picture taken while they’re jumping around on top. Show some f.cking respect.

{end rant}

No way – it’s within the kids rights to climb all over memorials and show a total lack of respect for the fallen.

Half these numbnuts would have a friggin clue what the HMAS Canberra was, let alone what happen to her – but of course they’d know heaps about real things, like the last time Britney Spears passed wind, or when Tupac’s next album is appearing from beyond the grave!

By the way, there has always been a suspicion in some circles that the HMAS Canberra was actually shelled by a USN ship during the wild melee that followed the Japanese incursion into the Allied fleet’s lines.

Human intervention. Which human?
Probably that guy claiming copyright. Hence he’s making the claim on it.

but the whole thing’s grey: what’s the difference between the colour picture and the greyscale one?

The cat did it11:46 am 09 Jan 09

It’s been photoshopped- there’s the original black and white version at http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono-06CA-Canberra.htm. So he can only claim rights to his photoshopped version.

@caf & phototext:
Copyright law, expiry of copyright, and its interpretation is pure hell for most people, but something of a goldmine for lawyers.

Take as example the ‘Van Helsing’ character from the original Dracula novel, published in 1897.
The novel Dracula and associated characters from the novel became public domain in 1962, including the main character and arch-enemy of Dracula, ‘Abraham Van Helsing’.

When Universal Pictures made the movie “Van Helsing” and released in in 2004, they named the main character “Gabriel Van Helsing”, who although he is steeped in the mythos of Bram Stoker’s Dracula, Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein, and marches around a universe full of other public domain characters, Universal Pictures own copyright on Gabriel Van Helsing and associated chatactersm for the entire duration of protection under modern copyright laws, and pursue their new intellectual property fiercely.

This includes any ______ Van Helsing character they see as too similar to Gabriel, and not close enough to Abraham.

Its not a question of how long is a piece of string, but how many times you can replace the handle\head of an axe and still call it the same axe you inherited from Grandad.

Woody Mann-Caruso11:32 am 09 Jan 09

{rant}

Could people keep their bloody kids (or worse, themselves) from climbing all over the Canberra’s memorial? Seems like every time I wander buy I have to wait for some group of gaggling yokels to wait for little Typhani and Jette to finish climbing the anchor chain and get their picture taken while they’re jumping around on top. Show some f.cking respect.

{end rant}

Caf,

It has to be a new work, substantially new/ different/ original from the original.

Digitisation of the photograph and a quick run through Photoshop would not make it a new work. The copyright on the original has expired, don’t think you can then claim copyright ownership on the digital copy as the act of copying/ reproduction is not the same as the act of creating.

Colouring a black and white photograph in Photoshop would likely make it a new work, but, the old chestnut of how long is a piece of string springs to mind.

That picture makes me feel kind of sad, like when I go to the War Memorial.

neanderthalsis11:08 am 09 Jan 09

For the Warporn nerds out there, here’s a pic of her just before being scuttled.

The Yanks named a Heavy Cruiser in her honour, USS Canberra, the only US Naval vessel ever to be named in honour of an foreign warship and with the name of a foreign capital city.

Aurelius: If you create a new work based on another work, you have copyright in the new work (even if the older work is out of copyright). Eg if you were to take an old out-of-copyright photo and modify it in Photoshop, you’d have authored a new work, with new copyright.

If the ship was sunk in 1942, then the photograph of it not sunk, the copyright has expired I would say.

http://www.copyright.org.au/G023.pdf

Page 4 Table 1 Row B

Page 5 Table 2 Row L

Also, sorry to spoil the excitment but this doesn’t look like a colour photograph to me, it looks like it is hand coloured/ tinted black and white print or been done later in Photoshop.

We could probably find out if its an ‘original’ as in a new coloured layer on an old photo, or itself a copy of something else.

But frankly I don’t care that much, and I have vastly better and more pressing things to do.

I’d wonder how someone would have copyright on a photo that was taken at least 60 years ago. Sitting in their attic all that time, perhaps? Otherwise, they’d only have the image by reproducing someone else’s work?

meh, fair use for purpose of comment.

For anyone interested, all photos hosted on flickr use a predictable name format.
The final filename is in the format photoID_hash_size.jpg
Just get your photoID value, and put it at the end of the url http://flickr.com/photo.gne?id= and you’ll get taken to the user’s page, to see their other photos and copyright sttaus of the photo you’re interested in.

The photo used in the blog was http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3068/3061760643_55d243efd0_o.jpg
So I went to http://flickr.com/photo.gne?id=3061760643

Time for me to rain on the copyright parade…

That picture, hotlinked originally on the blog, was to the picture only.

Working back from the photoid, you can get taken to the user page hosting the original at http://flickr.com/photos/duddyd2003/3061760643/

duddyd2003 explicity used copyright, all rights reserved on that photo.

All you’d need to do is bung a black and white photo into Photoshop, make the water and sky blue and the rest would take care of itself, wouldn’t it?
Oh, a little red and blue on the flags…

It’s been bunged on flickr without a watermark so I’m willing to use it with attribution until someone complains.

But that’s all I knows.

well done, JB. I have mentioned this to an old digger who will be very interested. Thanks for managing to track down such a great photo.

What’s the copyright status of this pic?
Coz if it’s not copyrighted, I think it’d be a good addition to the Wikipedia entry

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