1 December 2010

The Great Nerd Drought

| johnboy
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IT News are covering a shortage of technology skills in the Australian Public Service and, as ever, Gershon is to blame.

Analysts have blamed the culling of IT contractors during the Gershon Review and an exodus of talent from Canberra during the global financial crisis for an alarming shortage of technology skills in Australia’s public service.

The Federal Government’s 2010 State of the [Public] Service Report released late last week revealed recruiting ICT staff continued to be the Federal Government’s biggest skills headache.

I would say that the Public Service recruitment process is positively nerd unfriendly.

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facet said :

Once upon a time in the early 1990’s a fresh, new conservative government sat down to lunch with a couple of IBM computer salesmen to develop the new non-socialist public service IT policy.
Question: What is the difference between a used car salesman and a computer salesman;
Answer: The Used car salesman knows when he is lying.

The outcome was that all computer hardware and software was to be outsourced to “standardise” and save money. Thus began the slow decline into the dark age of public service IT. Managers who knew how to implement computer systems left or were “eased out”. The plaintive cry began “You gave me what I asked for but it is not what I need”. It seems that one size does not fit all.

Twenty years later very little has changed.

err, desine (the first IBM deal direct with defence including product and staff) came into being in 1984, maybe you are talking about the cluster or group contracts, they were collaborative between many companies, and outsourcing was a way at the time to stabilise jobs during the recession to prevent losses. maybe you are talking about the PE contracts (precursor to the evil panel contracts of today) that were run by DAS, the outsourcing contracts came into their own when the EDS / ATO deal was signed. Today is no better, The Microsoft / Data#3 Whole of Government deal effectively eliminated business for small players, as they couldn’t sell microsoft products to government anymore.

The outsource contracts are perceived by public sector staff as a bad thing, but, for the most part, the staff used in these contracts were purchased out of the department, the shortfall engaged as many locals as possible, and overseas talent was brought in to fill the gaps.

The killer for Government has been Gershon’s promotion of AGIMO, the cull of Defence contractors and the sharing of project resources between departments, often requiring classification adjustments at the cost of the department requiring the resource – from restricted to Classified / S / TS…

The private sector didn’t fare any better, we have lost swathes of business through lack of contracts, the panels make the sales of hardware about price, not value, and I am watching small competitors disappear.

The response of the Government to Gershon seems from the outside looking in to be about consistency – applying the APS recruiting standards/processes across the board having decided that inconsistent outsourcing practices aren’t such a good idea. I had expected it to increase their chances of getting the right people into the service. Being a public servant myself, I should have known better. I don’t understand why they couldn’t have applied some real risk management in their treatment of IT people who are still on their way to becoming permanent residents or citizens. Aren’t there better ways of protecting the sovereignty of Australian data adn systems than to exclude the qualified, experienced and trustworthy from the employment pool?

shadow boxer10:29 am 03 Dec 10

No it doesn’t, it is my accumulated assessment after 20 years of working with techs,

I remember back in one previous job new employees needed to do a psych assessment to get the clearance required for the work. Basically we were just looking for balanced mature individuals with a good work life balance and a stable circle of friends, family and motivations. Trouble was the IT techs consistently failed, they had to change the test in the end to allow through people that are always right *rolls eyes*.

I agree your statement about herding cats with a hose but doesn’t that just re-inforce my point ?, as a general rule there is a common inability to admit there might be a better way of doing something than the way they want to do it, anyone disagreeing must be stupid.

This usually ends in tech wars among the staff (outlook vs notes, win7 vs vista, .net vs vb5, apple vs pc etc.

I have one young man who is very talented and I let him start work at 11 and finish about 10 at night because it suits him and he is really really smart, trouble is he thinks this is his entitlement and we should be somewhat thankful he turns up at work at all. He gives no thought to the others that cover for him when the boss rings at 8:30.

shadow boxer said :

harley said :

Fisho said :

Luckily many of the dregs currently taking up space seem to be drifting towards project management.

Bwhahahaha! Head, meet nail.

and this kind of sums up a lot of the problem “I don’t want to do any management or be accountable but I’ll bag out those that do because I am special, and by the way pay me more”

IT techs are rarely team players.

Management != accountability. If the dictionary binders union hadn’t made a kerfuffle about special orders back in 1846 those terms wouldn’t be in the same book.

Managing techs is somewhat of an art, not entirely dissimilar to herding cats with a hose. Not impossible, but there are a minority of ‘managers’ that can do it. The rest just blame the techs or something.

Techs generally want a manager who can go in to bat, not a finger pointing lacktard.

Proper management (and the resultant environment) will do more in retaining tech talent than many would realise.

Your team players comment shows a profound lack of knowledge about techs.

“Selection criteria” reveal how much the selection panel has thought about selecting the “right” or best fit applicant. As opposed to the private sector where they sit and look at applicants and see how “attractive” they appear (no one wants an ugly camel). Selection criteria reveals a lot about the people on the selection panel. In the old days, selection criteria were vetted by a third party, but nowadays anything goes.
Too much freedom is as bad as not enough.

Gungahlin Al5:13 pm 02 Dec 10

sexynotsmart said :

Gungahlin Al said :

Interesting… IT = nerds.
Maybe the IT workers of Canberra need to put out their own calendar of non-nerd IT boys and girls.

OK, I’m interested in that. But everybody has to be nude and I have dibs on being Mr January.

Is a response to selection criteria required? If so, what’s the criteria?

Putting my hand up for chairing the selection panel. Someone else’ll have to assess the guys though – I’m not likely to be much chop at that…

capn_pugwash4:53 pm 02 Dec 10

hmm I have heard that APS4/5 can pay more than private companies. Previous posters and myself were meaning more the high 6/EL1 level. Just speaking in general terms – there are always going to be exceptions though. Good luck in the interview.

Lower pay in the public service? You serious?? As a long-time Service Desker, the private companies pay utter garbage compared to the Public Service.

Most Service Deskers in the private industry get paid $40-45K, and Public Servant Service Deskers will easily get $10-15K+ on that.

Hence this IT “nerd” (Dip Sys Admin) is heading for an interview on Thursday in one of the govvy departments.

capn_pugwash1:54 pm 02 Dec 10

cmdwedge said :

Pretty much, though I still manage to keep my hours around the 40 mark, 45 maybe. Used to crack 70+ hours at a previous role though. Not sure about the ‘less responsibility’ part though. That seems to be an attitude thing, if you want to just cruise along in a cushy PubS job, then by all means do so. But if you feel like earning your dollars and putting in an honest day of work for an honest day of pay, then you could probably do that both in PrivS job or a PubS job. There are some very hard working public servants that I deal with each day.

Yes the attitude is a better way to put it… not that it applies to all the APS. I used to do 60+hrs and enjoyed the buzz of delivering to a deadline. If you were one of these (what some have called here) ‘overpaid’ consultants I’m guessing that the client would not be too understanding if you had to go and pick up a sick child from childcare at 11am or something!! As others have said it is such a long process to jump through the hoops of the APS selection criteria that the private sector wins there

OpenYourMind said :

These days IT shops are about ITIL compliance, governance, accountability, standardisation, project management etc. Lots of IT people can’t or won’t make that shift and cling to the diminishing pool of backroom ‘nerd’ work.

Yes but happens if you take away the ‘nerds’? You are left with a bunch of email pushers!

shadow boxer said :

Contrary to public opinion there is very little room for passengers in todays public service.

I don’t know about our IT department, but is certainly the case where I am. Well, unless you count time wasted on teh Riotact.

capn_pugwash said :

So (very broadly) speaking if you were choosing between working for the APS or private sector it would be:
* APS – less responsibility/less pay/more family time/better super/better maternity leave/36hr week
* Private – more responsibility/more pay/less family time/standard super/standard mat leave/40+hr week (but as earning more could contribute more to super and fund own maternity leave)

Just confirming as i’m moving back to canberra next year and have previously worked for private sector consulting to APS but as family committments increase it gets tempting to switch camps!

Pretty much, though I still manage to keep my hours around the 40 mark, 45 maybe. Used to crack 70+ hours at a previous role though. Not sure about the ‘less responsibility’ part though. That seems to be an attitude thing, if you want to just cruise along in a cushy PubS job, then by all means do so. But if you feel like earning your dollars and putting in an honest day of work for an honest day of pay, then you could probably do that both in PrivS job or a PubS job. There are some very hard working public servants that I deal with each day.

shadow boxer1:23 pm 02 Dec 10

cmdwedge said :

shadow boxer said :

and this kind of sums up a lot of the problem “I don’t want to do any management or be accountable but I’ll bag out those that do because I am special, and by the way pay me more”

IT techs are rarely team players.

You sound like a bunch of fun to work with. You hate your staff.

Nah, the team I have at the moment is good but business is business and I had to replace a few before it got to that point (including a contractor who had been there for ten years and thought knowledge is power), we took some short term pain rebuilding that one but we have 2 or 3 people who can cover his skill set now).

Contrary to public opinion there is very little room for passengers in todays public service.

capn_pugwash12:54 pm 02 Dec 10

So (very broadly) speaking if you were choosing between working for the APS or private sector it would be:
* APS – less responsibility/less pay/more family time/better super/better maternity leave/36hr week
* Private – more responsibility/more pay/less family time/standard super/standard mat leave/40+hr week (but as earning more could contribute more to super and fund own maternity leave)

Just confirming as i’m moving back to canberra next year and have previously worked for private sector consulting to APS but as family committments increase it gets tempting to switch camps!

Once upon a time in the early 1990’s a fresh, new conservative government sat down to lunch with a couple of IBM computer salesmen to develop the new non-socialist public service IT policy.
Question: What is the difference between a used car salesman and a computer salesman;
Answer: The Used car salesman knows when he is lying.

The outcome was that all computer hardware and software was to be outsourced to “standardise” and save money. Thus began the slow decline into the dark age of public service IT. Managers who knew how to implement computer systems left or were “eased out”. The plaintive cry began “You gave me what I asked for but it is not what I need”. It seems that one size does not fit all.

Twenty years later very little has changed.

cmdwedge said :

shadow boxer said :

But please, sipping lattes and having a nice corner office does not mean you’re a hard or intelligent worker.

It is a nice view, and you do get paid well though.

If I got paid as much as a bouncer as I did as I contract PM, I’d go back to that. I can’t see the APS ending it’s need for those of us who are “results orientated” anytime soon. And in my view, if as an overpaid contractor you don’t deliver results, you should get the arse.

shadow boxer said :

and this kind of sums up a lot of the problem “I don’t want to do any management or be accountable but I’ll bag out those that do because I am special, and by the way pay me more”

IT techs are rarely team players.

You sound like a bunch of fun to work with. You hate your staff.

The PS is notorious for culling and then rehiring staff at a higher price. The Gershon Review was the latest in a long line of so-called efficiency plans that have failed to fix the problem of staffing costs and poor productivity. These reviews only accomplish uncertainty and disloyalty. How can you get the best out of your staff, if there are constant whispers of redundancies and cancelling of contracts? No wonder, the PS is seen as a joke by the private sector.

HandyCap said :

Interesting – I am a BA with 18 years of IT experience with a federal agency and my position was just declared excess. After a significant amount of pressure from my boss, I accepted the VR. So… why, if we have a skills shortage, are full-time permanent IT professionals (not only me) being booted out?

This sort of mirrors my experience. My department basically panicked after a severe budget cut and got rid of a fair percentage of its IT staff. Wasn’t gone a week before I call the call to return on contract. Did a few stints of contracting but that work dried up in the face of the GFC – plus I am no good at touting for work, and I absolutely loathed dealing with “recruitment” firms.

I think there are a lot of problems with the way the APS views and treats its IT staff – but that is stating the obvious. They are almost clueless, it seems, and things are getting worse, not better. I’d like to return to work, but that forces me to confront what I see as one of the bigger issues with IT employment in the APS – the ASO6/EL1 divide. Your programming career basically ends once you become an EL1.

This is the funniest thread today.

I’m a PM / Procurement guy, and was contracting before, during and after all the Gershon fun. I was amazed during the review and fall out, the view that contractors were “finally getting what was coming to them after being paid so much”. Who did they think kept paying the wages? For the 24 months before Gershon, whenever I changed contracts, I asked for an extra $10 an hour. And they paid it.
As a hired gun PM, mainly going in and fixing other PM’s mistakes (perm and contractor) I moved every 3-4 months. I did have some time in the wilderness between contracts, where I worked for $10 an hour, a couple of times I tried to explain to my kids how I was worth $10 an hour one week, and $120 an hour the next week, but I gave up, as I didn’t really get it either.
I was glad when Gershon came around, as it started to cull some of the oxygen theives from the contracting arena. My personal view is that you should hire a contractor only to perform a specific task, and they should be able to outperform any APS equivalent.
Otherwise, I see no reason why you should pay them any more than a standard APS (+ about 15% for the risk of contracting )

James-T-Kirk9:42 am 02 Dec 10

cmdwedge said :

I can’t just ‘learn Windows’ and then be done with it. I need to have my own setup at home so I can play with the new stuff, because, eventually, the Departments want to upgrade to newer and shinier stuff. I don’t mind this extra work, because I enjoy what I do.

B I N G O

And that beautiful people is what separates those who have extraordinary capabilities from those who are just average Public Service IT workers….

Either yu have it, or you don’t – no amount of training will fix it – it is an attitude thing – you have to want to be good at what you do.

shadow boxer said :

IT techs make me laugh, they are like mechanics taking shots at the salespeople.

Essentially you guys are tradies, you do a job you get paid, you move on.

If you don’t want to do any of the hard or dis-agreeable work like being accountable, managing budgets, recruiting staff, cutting staff, training staff, delivering programs and generally delivering a government endorsed strategy for the subject at hand you get paid mid level wages for fixing stuff or delivering a service.

Wages for senior executives are also much higher in the private sector but senior public servants usually have greater motivations than just money.

No. I’m happy doing near constant training, including after hours in my own time, because the tech moves so fast. I can’t just ‘learn Windows’ and then be done with it. I need to have my own setup at home so I can play with the new stuff, because, eventually, the Departments want to upgrade to newer and shinier stuff. I don’t mind this extra work, because I enjoy what I do.

But please, sipping lattes and having a nice corner office does not mean you’re a hard or intelligent worker.

Gungahlin Al said :

Interesting… IT = nerds.
Maybe the IT workers of Canberra need to put out their own calendar of non-nerd IT boys and girls.
CMWedge: $60K? Time to check out the pay scales methinks? EL1s get up to $100Kish in most agencies – two more levels than usual in Climate Change, taking them up to $112Kish. APS6 isn’t too far behind.
And how’s that 15.45% super looking?

Yep. At EL1 levels, I would be losing pay. With your examples, I would need to be an EL2 or above, and they are management positions. My $60K example was talking about the APS5-6 levels, where you are not expected to be a manager.

James-T-Kirk8:44 am 02 Dec 10

Further to my previous comment –

I my wife fails to bonk my brains out every night, I DONT impose a service credit!

James-T-Kirk8:42 am 02 Dec 10

c` said :

AaronT said :

All outsourcing has done is make the government hostage to large outsourcing companies.

And the lack of PS Legal to step in and contest ‘delivery’ against outsourcing contracts is a big problem too.

Where I am working we able basically held hostage on delivery to the outsourcers own governance processes. We don’t get output from them until all the i’s and t’s, etc. This can mean months between a request for service and something actually happening at geek level.

I believe quite the opposite – The legal stuff is exactly why you have to wait – there can be no errors. lest there be service penalties…

James-T-Kirk8:39 am 02 Dec 10

Special brackets for IT people can’t work.

One of the scariest comments that a friend of mine who is a public servant (who I regularly have BBQs with), is that “Any Public Servant should be able to do any job in the service”.

She vermenently believes that.

All I can say is thank God that there are privately employed brain surgeons I can go to if I have a stroke. I really don’t want to go to a brain surgeon who used to be a purchasing officer…….

Jamie Wheeler said :

I’m a recent Gershon victim, got converted to an EL1 and am now being paid crap money. I took the job just because the job market was bad.

I heard you got Gershoned cuz you were crap.?

Programmers want to program, not manage staff.

shadow boxer5:17 am 02 Dec 10

harley said :

Fisho said :

Luckily many of the dregs currently taking up space seem to be drifting towards project management.

Bwhahahaha! Head, meet nail.

and this kind of sums up a lot of the problem “I don’t want to do any management or be accountable but I’ll bag out those that do because I am special, and by the way pay me more”

IT techs are rarely team players.

They should come recruit at my work! At least 3 of us would love to get into the PS! Just don’t know how, really. A few of us have been talking about it lately.

Employ Chinese contractors. Tell the local IT highwaymen to go to hell. How dare they think they are worth more than a policy spin doctor.

You pay peanuts…you get monkeys

Fisho said :

Luckily many of the dregs currently taking up space seem to be drifting towards project management.

Bwhahahaha! Head, meet nail.

Jamie Wheeler8:52 pm 01 Dec 10

phil m said :

The crux of the problem is is that there should be a different pay structure for IT nerds as there are for beaurocratic nerds.
At the moment if you want to stay technical you get up to about ASO6 and that’s as high as you go unless you want to get involved with the management stuff which many IT guys don’t.

+1

I’m a recent Gershon victim, got converted to an EL1 and am now being paid crap money. I took the job just because the job market was bad.

Now I’m having to work with so many non qualified public servants who get paid the same as me. Why would anybody want such complex and stressful work paid at the level of administrative clerks?

I’m now fed up with doing all the complex technical work and also helping along all the unqualified skilless people at my level. There is just no recognition at all for technical skills in the current APS pay scales.

Soon I’ll be quitting as I’m lining up higher paid work in the private sector. The APS needs to understand IT workers will just go where the opportunities lie.

AaronT said :

All outsourcing has done is make the government hostage to large outsourcing companies.

And the lack of PS Legal to step in and contest ‘delivery’ against outsourcing contracts is a big problem too.

Where I am working we able basically held hostage on delivery to the outsourcers own governance processes. We don’t get output from them until all the i’s and t’s, etc. This can mean months between a request for service and something actually happening at geek level.

The department and the outsourcer then have the hide to call this a ‘partnership’. I think it’s one without consensual sex – someone’s getting fucked and it’s not the outsourcer.

OpenYourMind8:01 pm 01 Dec 10

I’ve worked some 25 years in IT, having made my way from Uni to HelpDesk to Techo to Management. My experience has been that finding good techos is not that hard, but finding someone who has an IT background who can also diversify into some of the areas Shadow Boxer eluded to is the tricky part.

IT has become much more of a commodity and there’s a trend to greater and greater centralisation of services. Co-ordinating these changes, managing big IT projects, financial reporting and contract management are the kinds of skills that IT people will need into the future.

When I started in IT, custom written code, building machines from scratch, cobbled together networks and no change management or general IT discipline were the norm. The bastard operator from Hell ruled supreme. These days IT shops are about ITIL compliance, governance, accountability, standardisation, project management etc. Lots of IT people can’t or won’t make that shift and cling to the diminishing pool of backroom ‘nerd’ work.

shadow boxer7:14 pm 01 Dec 10

Jethro said :

shadow boxer said :

IT techs make me laugh, they are like mechanics taking shots at the salespeople.

Essentially you guys are tradies, you do a job you get paid, you move on.

If you don’t want to do any of the hard or dis-agreeable work like being accountable, managing budgets, recruiting staff, cutting staff, training staff, delivering programs and generally delivering a government endorsed strategy for the subject at hand you get paid mid level wages for fixing stuff or delivering a service.

Wages for senior executives are also much higher in the private sector but senior public servants usually have greater motivations than just money.

shadow boxer denigrating someone else’s job? How unusual.

Fair cop, I have done a bit of that, i’ll try to be nicer in the new year.

😉

shadow boxer7:09 pm 01 Dec 10

The fishing is good in here today, I dont know which one to answer first.

I’ve worked in public sector IT for 20 years now in four different departments but not one that was involved in the outsourcing so i’ll leave that bit alone.

Generally when looking to set up an IT infrastrucutre section the best performing teams tend to comprise a Director, 1 or 2 permanent technical staff at EL-1 or a developing 6 level and the smartest technical consultant you can find to do your architecture and keep you current with industry and other agency trends.

There are pretty established levels for the different jobs, exchange admins EL-1, help desk supervisor, aps 6, soe image and task sequence builder EL-1 etc

Permanent internal application development staff should be avoided at all costs

When I advertise for a consultant I get as many applications from the panel as I let them send me and an aps tech job will get about 30-40 applicants so I don’t know where this shortage comes from.

The gershon review and efficiency dividend has done a good job in forcing departments to shed long term contractors and aps individualists who have held us hostage through the 90’s and early 2,000’s through their specialised local knowledge that they refused to share. Most departments have now managed to build some depth of knowledge in the criticl areas. It did upset a few gravy trains though.

However, working in a business systems analysis capacity, once we find we have people we can work with, we’re immediately in competition with other Sections (and departments) who have their hearts set on poaching experienced staff. 🙁

The upside is I get a free lunch and new job offer every few weeks.

sexynotsmart6:40 pm 01 Dec 10

Gungahlin Al said :

Interesting… IT = nerds.
Maybe the IT workers of Canberra need to put out their own calendar of non-nerd IT boys and girls.

OK, I’m interested in that. But everybody has to be nude and I have dibs on being Mr January.

Is a response to selection criteria required? If so, what’s the criteria?

Our solution to Gershon was mostly just to send X percent of helpdesk staff into other branches so they were no longer IT support on our cost code, they were business support cost.

We used the rest of the cutback as the opportunity to cut out some fat , mostly those whose skills weren’t easily cross-translatable to other projects even with training, or specialists whose sense of entitlement exceeded the usage of their abilities.
(I now lead the team I was part of when the Report was coming, mostly because we figured we really could work the remaining resources harder and use some of the savings as rewards…)

Don’t tell me it was all bad, but an appropriate pay tree would have been good.

georgesgenitals6:03 pm 01 Dec 10

parle said :

shadow boxer said :

IT techs make me laugh, they are like mechanics taking shots at the salespeople.

Essentially you guys are tradies, you do a job you get paid, you move on.

I know you’re baiting but some ‘IT techs’ have a bachelors, masters, system engineering degrees and some even doctorates. It’s quite common for the ‘IT nerd’ to have the highest quals in the room, even at one of your ‘program delivery/strategy’ meetings.

Thinking like yours got the PS into the outsourcing mess.

Not to be rude, but so what if you have qualifications? That doesn’t necessarily make you any better at your job. There are plenty of oxygen thieves with good qualifications.

And before you accuse me of professional jealousy, I have a B.Eng and an MSc, as well as several industry certifications.

Your comment about the PS being in a mess with outsourcing is spot on, though.

Amanda Hugankis5:39 pm 01 Dec 10

Erg0 said :

shadow boxer said :

parle said :

shadow boxer said :

IT techs make me laugh, they are like mechanics taking shots at the salespeople.

Essentially you guys are tradies, you do a job you get paid, you move on.

I know you’re baiting but some ‘IT techs’ have a bachelors, masters, system engineering degrees and some even doctorates. It’s quite common for the ‘IT nerd’ to have the highest quals in the room, even at one of your ‘program delivery/strategy’ meetings.

Thinking like yours got the PS into the outsourcing mess.

Yeh i’m only stirring, its still a backroom position though, an enabler rather than a deliverer as we would call it, it just annoys me sometimes when the IT tech thinks answering the phone for us is beneath him.

I would suggest that you’ve had a pretty narrow experience of IT consultants if you think they’re all occupying backroom positions.

Don’t forget that ‘IT’, depending on who you ask, is a pretty broad field. Are we talking server/network people? Are we talking developers? Programmers? BI/Warehouse designers? IT projects management? DBAs? Desktop? Tech writers? Test managers? Its dangerous to generalise that the nerds you speak of are all IT wrench monkies.

I’ve worked with ‘nerds’ for so many years, some ex-pilots, ex-military, ex-engineers, ex-policy developers, ex-business owners, ex-housewives, ex-SES, ex-accountants, ex-artists. There are a huge range of people who find themselves in IT at grunt, middle-management and executive levels.

Having worked 10+ years in BI and MI business analysis roles, I’ve been part of teams that have worked for years on delivering and providing support for systems and products to internal APS staff, as well as external businesses who were clients and NGOs delivering our services to the public. As far as I’m concerned this is no different from policy development, delivery and program management in this respect. Its just the IT field has a set of standards and methodologies for doing their work 😉

I’m not from IT at all, but I think the whole APS pay scale thing needs to looked at. Does having one salary range for people doing different jobs in the one department even make sense any more?

I feel the IT issues are just the tip of the iceberg. As people of all ages retire, and skills shortgaes lift wages up in many industries, what on earth would the majority of people stay in the APS for, particularly when they can come back as contractors on projects?

As for the selection criteria, that is also another “tick-the-box” exercise. I understand the need to be accountable, but I would suggest it helps to lose anyone who doesn’t think in the 1970’s “straight line/this is how we’ve always done things’ attitude prevalent among many of the older public servants.

Surely with the challenges we face, there is more need for innovation and frsh ways of doing things rather than less?

All outsourcing has done is make the government hostage to large outsourcing companies.

There is no reason the majority of the work can be done in-house or even make use of short term secondments from other departments (if they have the skills).

As for pay rates, some departments do pay a bit low for certain roles, but then so do some of the outsourcers. At least the APS is open about what people are getting paid.

There are some departments that have non-management EL1 roles.

Consultants/contractors do have their place, but using them to replace full-time staff is crazy.

Amanda Hugankis5:21 pm 01 Dec 10

HandyCap said :

Interesting – I am a BA with 18 years of IT experience with a federal agency and my position was just declared excess. After a significant amount of pressure from my boss, I accepted the VR. So… why, if we have a skills shortage, are full-time permanent IT professionals (not only me) being booted out?

Oh dammit Janet – I’m a BA, some years experience … we could have done a swap! I’m hanging out for a VR.

shadow boxer said :

Yeh i’m only stirring, its still a backroom position though, an enabler rather than a deliverer as we would call it,

Okay, I see, like if you go to a neurosurgeon and tell him that he has to operate on your head because it hurts, you then tell him not to operate on your feet because it doesn’t hurt there and if he could get it finished by the end of next month and you’ll be paying by credit card for the whole thing.

So in this sense he’s the enabler and you are the deliverer..what would that silly neurosurgeon do without you?? I’ll bet he doesn’t even have a gantt chart…

shadow boxer said :

it just annoys me sometimes when the IT tech thinks answering the phone for us is beneath him.

wait until he starts going over your head, then you’ll be annoyed.

The Gershon report ignored some problems in the local market and PS debacle so is widely considered yet another spoke in the insource/outsource cycle and paid the procedural lip service it warrants.

Lack of appropriate renumeration, hideously overcomplicated job application procedures, the APS6 technical glass ceiling, talentless chair warmers in IT etc has been covered.

A few more issues they need to address, any position with an incumbent should be marked as such to stop people wasting time applying (which leads to people not applying at all, many PS IT positions advertised do not get any applicants outside of green grads) and the rampant nepotism.

Chances are, if you have more than half a clue, and mistakenly demonstrate that in the drawn out hiring process you will make the reviewer feel threatened and they will award the position to their mate/neighbours son/son in-law/incumbent.

Luckily many of the dregs currently taking up space seem to be drifting towards project management.

parle said :

I know you’re baiting but some ‘IT techs’ have a bachelors, masters, system engineering degrees and some even doctorates. It’s quite common for the ‘IT nerd’ to have the highest quals in the room, even at one of your ‘program delivery/strategy’ meetings.

Thinking like yours got the PS into the outsourcing mess.

The mess has been the result of many things I think. The fact that the modern “IT trade” has only existed for about 15-20 years is a big part. It has very much been evolving over that time, with respect to what qualifications are what, and someone who can get the job done is worse.

The ideal thing would probably be special brackets for techies (as someone said like there has historically been for nurses, journalists, lawyers, etc), where they can be recognised as needing to be paid more without being part of the management structure. But agencies seem to have been moving away from that “specialist” pay grade structure right when it would have made sense for this new trade.

The whole outsourcing thing hit the IT divisions of gov’t departments pretty hard, but it was a managment approach taken in many areas not just IT. The outsourcing of HR, building services, fleet management, call centres, and many other functions was all the rage at the same time, with mixed success.

shadow boxer said :

IT techs make me laugh, they are like mechanics taking shots at the salespeople.

Essentially you guys are tradies, you do a job you get paid, you move on.

If you don’t want to do any of the hard or dis-agreeable work like being accountable, managing budgets, recruiting staff, cutting staff, training staff, delivering programs and generally delivering a government endorsed strategy for the subject at hand you get paid mid level wages for fixing stuff or delivering a service.

Wages for senior executives are also much higher in the private sector but senior public servants usually have greater motivations than just money.

shadow boxer denigrating someone else’s job? How unusual.

shadow boxer said :

parle said :

shadow boxer said :

IT techs make me laugh, they are like mechanics taking shots at the salespeople.

Essentially you guys are tradies, you do a job you get paid, you move on.

I know you’re baiting but some ‘IT techs’ have a bachelors, masters, system engineering degrees and some even doctorates. It’s quite common for the ‘IT nerd’ to have the highest quals in the room, even at one of your ‘program delivery/strategy’ meetings.

Thinking like yours got the PS into the outsourcing mess.

Yeh i’m only stirring, its still a backroom position though, an enabler rather than a deliverer as we would call it, it just annoys me sometimes when the IT tech thinks answering the phone for us is beneath him.

I would suggest that you’ve had a pretty narrow experience of IT consultants if you think they’re all occupying backroom positions.

shadow boxer says: Essentially you guys are tradies, you do a job you get paid, you move on. … you get paid mid level wages for fixing stuff or delivering a service.

That is the precise problem attitude that is causing the lack of IT people’s ability to stick around and develop/retain good IT skills within the agency.

Thanks for articulating it so well.

shadow boxer4:41 pm 01 Dec 10

parle said :

shadow boxer said :

IT techs make me laugh, they are like mechanics taking shots at the salespeople.

Essentially you guys are tradies, you do a job you get paid, you move on.

I know you’re baiting but some ‘IT techs’ have a bachelors, masters, system engineering degrees and some even doctorates. It’s quite common for the ‘IT nerd’ to have the highest quals in the room, even at one of your ‘program delivery/strategy’ meetings.

Thinking like yours got the PS into the outsourcing mess.

Yeh i’m only stirring, its still a backroom position though, an enabler rather than a deliverer as we would call it, it just annoys me sometimes when the IT tech thinks answering the phone for us is beneath him.

shadow boxer said :

IT techs make me laugh, they are like mechanics taking shots at the salespeople.

Essentially you guys are tradies, you do a job you get paid, you move on.

I know you’re baiting but some ‘IT techs’ have a bachelors, masters, system engineering degrees and some even doctorates. It’s quite common for the ‘IT nerd’ to have the highest quals in the room, even at one of your ‘program delivery/strategy’ meetings.

Thinking like yours got the PS into the outsourcing mess.

I think the PS is slowly learning that you need to pay EL2 rates for very technical IT staff in non management positions, these guys are usually immediately managed by EL1’s

IT contractors for the most part are highly qualified and experienced but should be used for short term requirements or skills shortages, they themselves expect to be finding a new job every 6 months but get the wage to suit.

What the PS has been relying on (some agencies more than others) is IT contractors holding long term positions. Unfortunately when they do eventually move on a lot of corporate knowledge leaves the organization. This is why the short sighted agencies need to invest in quality IT people, train them where required and hold onto them. It is a healthy thing to move jobs but at least with this mentality the person will probably only be moving to another agency so the government is still benefiting as a whole.

Don’t forget that special pay brackets outside of the usual APS structures already exists for the science organization for the scientists, doctors etc. Special brackets should also exist for technical IT people. The government might all be about management from the outside but if everyone was a manager on the inside, who would be doing the work?

Gungahlin Al said :

CMWedge: $60K? Time to check out the pay scales methinks? EL1s get up to $100Kish in most agencies – two more levels than usual in Climate Change, taking them up to $112Kish. APS6 isn’t too far behind.
And how’s that 15.45% super looking?

Not attractive at all GA, a salary between $100K and $130K is easily obtainable in he ACT IT private sector and if people want to, they can salary sacrifice their super and still maintain a higher salary.
Also, free parking and an annual bonus make the APS a not so attractive option.

The selection criteria process should involve a preliminary step requiring interested applicants to forward their CV’s to the department for review if the department is interested in your experience and believe you are a suitable candidate they inform you and then you can respond to the selection criteria.

shadow boxer4:05 pm 01 Dec 10

IT techs make me laugh, they are like mechanics taking shots at the salespeople.

Essentially you guys are tradies, you do a job you get paid, you move on.

If you don’t want to do any of the hard or dis-agreeable work like being accountable, managing budgets, recruiting staff, cutting staff, training staff, delivering programs and generally delivering a government endorsed strategy for the subject at hand you get paid mid level wages for fixing stuff or delivering a service.

Wages for senior executives are also much higher in the private sector but senior public servants usually have greater motivations than just money.

Gungahlin Al3:41 pm 01 Dec 10

Interesting… IT = nerds.
Maybe the IT workers of Canberra need to put out their own calendar of non-nerd IT boys and girls.
CMWedge: $60K? Time to check out the pay scales methinks? EL1s get up to $100Kish in most agencies – two more levels than usual in Climate Change, taking them up to $112Kish. APS6 isn’t too far behind.
And how’s that 15.45% super looking?

UrbanAdventure.org3:33 pm 01 Dec 10

HandyCap said :

Interesting – I am a BA with 18 years of IT experience with a federal agency and my position was just declared excess. After a significant amount of pressure from my boss, I accepted the VR. So… why, if we have a skills shortage, are full-time permanent IT professionals (not only me) being booted out?

Interesting, I’m in a similar boat, or I was. B. Computing, lots of experience, got told my position was made redundant. I’ve worked in private industry since, as public service applications are just too hard to respond to. Why bust my ass spending days responding to a shitty paid PS job with off the planet non real world selection criteria when it is far easier to get private industry jobs without all the bullshit of PS applications? Mind you, I would far rather work for the PS, I’m just compleatly over the stupid selection criteria.

phil m’s comment hit the nail on the head for me. My current, private-sector wage is around an EL2 or a bit above. To be an EL2 in the public service, I would need to be a manager. I don’t want to be a manager, I want to do nerd things.

Would like to join the public service, but not for $60K.

James-T-Kirk3:08 pm 01 Dec 10

Now – don’t get me wrong – the people left in the average IT department are all really nice people – the kind you would have a BBQ with

Just don’t trust them to have a deep and detailed knowledge of the intricacies of IP routing. They simply don’t need that – the outsourcer does it all for them……

georgesgenitals3:08 pm 01 Dec 10

JTK @4 nails it. There are heaps of jobs in the private sector in IT in this town, and some of them pay really, really well. Why the hell would you hang around as a mid level pube doing IT when you can go and get one of these?

James-T-Kirk3:03 pm 01 Dec 10

Ok – This should be simple to explain…..

The first round of outsourcing happened – all of the great and brilliant nerds left, either to work for the outsourcer, or for another department. Leaving the less brilliant people behind. (The kind who don’t have to regularly reject job offers from other companies)

The second round of outsourcing happened – and the above effect became more pronounced.

That leaves us with the current day – where there are a handful of IT staff within the Public service who are capable of doing quality work, while the rest of the people in the IT department actively get in the way.

That has to be examined with the poor IT wages that the service pays. No quality people would work for 3/4 of the salary you get outside – especially when there is NO SECURITY in the public service. Just examine the Centerlink experience above…..

Sigh – so – we have the delightful position where the public service is not the place where quality IT employees go.

Now – Consultants – that is an entirely different kettle of fish – we all milk the public service cow for all it is worth !!

Interesting – I am a BA with 18 years of IT experience with a federal agency and my position was just declared excess. After a significant amount of pressure from my boss, I accepted the VR. So… why, if we have a skills shortage, are full-time permanent IT professionals (not only me) being booted out?

ConanOfCooma2:36 pm 01 Dec 10

Yep, the Gherkin Review is something we PS look upon with love.

*pause*

NOT!

I know that in the Clink the IT helpdesk and support groups were split up and moved to Adelaide and Brisbane. No experienced staff were allowed to relocate (until it became obvious the plan suffered from FAIL and AIDS), and all new staff were hired at both locations. The experienced staff in Canberra were simply fed to other sections, despite having no relevant experience or qualifications.

All this as a cost cutting measure – Hire double the people, spend millions on setting up two new sites, then just give the existing staff different jobs.

Basically they moved the cost from one bit of paper to another, and said “Woweee! Look at this sheet of savings! This WORKED!” whilst they hid the second bit of paper.

The crux of the problem is is that there should be a different pay structure for IT nerds as there are for beaurocratic nerds.
At the moment if you want to stay technical you get up to about ASO6 and that’s as high as you go unless you want to get involved with the management stuff which many IT guys don’t.

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