17 April 2013

The most lucrative speed cameras in Canberra are...

| johnboy
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red light camera

The magic of FOI presents a list of the red light and speed cameras in the ACT and how much money they’ve raked in.

Northbourne Avenue and Antill Street seems very popular.

Any highlights for you dear reader?

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Skidbladnir said :

m00nee said :

In addition there is also:
…fluff…

That is -all- secondary.

Mine at least forms part of a specific economic model and basis for decisions.
Yours, not so much.

I disagree. Your questions all boil down to “Why place a speed/red light camera there?”. My question relates to “Why place a speed/red light camera there at all?”.

The FOI request shows that ‘x’ number of infringement notices to a value of ‘y’ were handed out during a certain period, yet the government show the value of the infringement notices as revenue (title of column 4), not potential revenue.

The purpose of the cameras are to raise money, but if the fines are not paid the cameras are not doing their job. The perfect example of this was in Adelaide recently, where a woman attended court over 156 traffic offences worth $85,000 accumulated over 7 years, who is now trying to pay this off by performing community service.

On the other hand a single marked police vehicle with an officer with a mobile speed camera will not catch as many people, but will have the effect of making most road users slow down for a longer period of time, as well as concentrate on their driving, instead of their phone, mp3’s, breakfast, make-up etc.

Girt_Hindrance said :

I’m very happy for this idiot tax to continue, and I always enjoy the irony in the posts from people who want to see the justification for taxing them for breaking the law.

I’m not sure that it’s quite that simple….
Firstly, I’d like to preface my comments that I have no problem with the speed cameras (nor have I ever received a fine from any of them so I have no sores or grudges against them) – hey, imagine how much rates etc. would go up if the Gov’t didn’t have this source of revenue, and imagine how people would drive if there were no speed cameras!

While many seem to be saying they want justification for being taxed for breaking the law, they seem to be missing a vital link in voicing their concerns: that is, the Gov’t justifies the speed and red-light cameras by telling us they’re not installed for revenue, but for road safety (note the signage on Hindmarsh Dr referring, not to speed cameras or tax collectors, but to SAFETY cameras). Therefore, say such people, if the cameras are about safety, surely they should target areas where safety is an issue (ie. looking at crash history for that area, etc.).

I hope this clarifies…

Further, there is also a view that while the Gov’t should be maintaining a Police presence on our roads to enforce a whole range of misdemeanours at any time at any place, it seems that the Gov’t is focussing their efforts primarily on speeding because it’s cheaper and easier to install a fixed camera than to employ a team of Mr Plods to drive around and around – another case of jobs being replaced by machines (which in this case, only do a small part of the job and only in specific areas) – worse still, in many places where NIMBYs are especially active (eg. Flinders Way, McCulloch St and soon to be Streeton Dr), the jobs aren’t even being replaced by machines but indiscriminate inanimate great lumps and bumps (inverted pot-holes) – it’s so apt that Indonesians refer to them as “Sleeping Policemen” (with the implication that these bumps are like Policemen ‘sleeping on the job’ instead of doing what they should be doing).

Anyone who gets caught speeding by a fixed camera, in clear view, with sign posts clearly stating there is a camera ahead, deserves to get fined, as well as a punch to the ovaries..

Girt_Hindrance9:39 am 19 Apr 13

patrick_keogh said :

I feel terrible about this. I have not been pulling my weight in terms of voluntary taxation. I just want to say a heartfelt thank you to all those who have taken one for the team.

+1

I’m very happy for this idiot tax to continue, and I always enjoy the irony in the posts from people who want to see the justification for taxing them for breaking the law.

m00nee said :

In addition there is also:
…fluff…

That is -all- secondary.

Mine at least forms part of a specific economic model and basis for decisions.
Yours, not so much.

I couldn’t care less about the possible safety aspect of speed cameras. It’s a stupidity tax, and I’m all for that. Don’t see why you’d remove a camera (no doubt at great cost) when it could just stay there and be the gift that keeps on giving.

Skidbladnir said :

A few things I’d want to also see before adding to existing uninformed comment.

1) ACT-specific individualised figures of taxpayer-funded\social costs relating to support for crash victims in three categories:
a) Fatal crash
b) Severe injury crash resulting in hospitalisation
c) Injury crash resulting in other medical treatment

2) Number of incidents at these sites in the above categories for years prior to installation of cameras, number of incidents at these sites in the above catgeories for years after camera installation. (Ideally, a seperate figure for numbers of incidents in these categories across all ACT roads for each of these periods also)

3) Road lengths of those roads on which cameras have been installed.

4) Cost of processing fines issued in relation to offences.

5) Combination of the above (and so-far-FOI-ed data) to determine net economic benefit through cost reduction, relating to the abov..

6) Pre-install and Post-install measures of average speed, number of cars travelling above signposted speed at the points installed, categorisation of speeds in excess of signposted limits.

IE: Let us calculate and determine the ACT-specific Benefit-Cost-Ratio, impact on traffic, and impact on driver behaviour, instead of calculating and criticising on a pure impact on ACT Govt revenue and “These cameras tick me off” basis.

In addition there is also

How many of the fines have been issued to vehicles where the government either cannot, or have abandoned attempts to collect eg, stolen or unregistered vehicles, unidentified plates, unlicensed owners, delinquent owners etc.

@ Porker

That’s a bloody funny one and i can’t top that! I was thinking more along these lines,quite a clever contraption

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXiCca5nkhA

bundah said :

p1 said :

My spray about $peed camera$:

I would support them if they could increase the numbers – and therefore the revenue – to the point where rego (including insurance) became free.

bundah said :

The newer red light/speed cameras apparently have infrared flashes so they’re invisible.

I have often wondered if a heated numberplate would emit enough infrared radiation so as to appear as a washed out blob of light in such a photo….

Ha no i think it would be far more effective to have a revolving numberplate.

The driver in Rivett http://the-riotact.com/a-special-parking-effort-from-rivett-images-of-canberra/101029 has tried this.
Believed to be an early prototype of a revolving number plate. To date has only achieved 180 deg on one occasion.

patrick_keogh5:56 pm 18 Apr 13

I feel terrible about this. I have not been pulling my weight in terms of voluntary taxation. I just want to say a heartfelt thank you to all those who have taken one for the team.

Interestingly, a road which has a high fatality rate (and signposted as such) and is several kilometres long with few traffic lights (but lots of intersections), doesn’t seem to be a contender for a speed camera.

I’m not mentioning the name of the road for fear that it will quickly be put on the list of where to put more traffic lights and speed cameras (though I’m sure there are plenty who can work it out from the details that I have provided)

Just an observation

Skidbladnir said :

A few things I’d want to also see before adding to existing uninformed comment.

Sorry, you’re in the wrong place with that kind of attitude. 🙂

switch said :

Skidbladnir said :

IE: Let us calculate and determine the ACT-specific Benefit-Cost-Ratio, impact on traffic, and impact on driver behaviour, instead of calculating and criticising on a pure impact on ACT Govt revenue and “These cameras tick me off” basis.

Be cheaper to put in a few more speed cameras…

Im with skidbladinir here – there really needs to be a clear reason for speed cameras to be installed. if that reason is poor road engineering which is later rectified, remove the cameras.

When a gov dept decides to change the speed limit by 10km that needs to be explained. Canberra Ave out to Queanbeyan was dropped from 90 to 80 last year. i’m not sure why. What is the accident data that supported that decrease ?

Looking at the total number of incidents and fines that are issued based on camera snaps, wouldnt you expect the actual accident rate to be much higher? Its clear that the amount of fines issues is out of proportion to actual road accidents.

Im not opposed to speed cameras where there is a demonstrated problem they can solve, but id prefer to see cameras that detect poor driving and idiots on their mobile weaving in and out of lanes.

Skidbladnir said :

IE: Let us calculate and determine the ACT-specific Benefit-Cost-Ratio, impact on traffic, and impact on driver behaviour, instead of calculating and criticising on a pure impact on ACT Govt revenue and “These cameras tick me off” basis.

Be cheaper to put in a few more speed cameras…

PS: Evidently I’m something of a data geek. Who’d have guessed? 😛

A few things I’d want to also see before adding to existing uninformed comment.

1) ACT-specific individualised figures of taxpayer-funded\social costs relating to support for crash victims in three categories:
a) Fatal crash
b) Severe injury crash resulting in hospitalisation
c) Injury crash resulting in other medical treatment

2) Number of incidents at these sites in the above categories for years prior to installation of cameras, number of incidents at these sites in the above catgeories for years after camera installation. (Ideally, a seperate figure for numbers of incidents in these categories across all ACT roads for each of these periods also)

3) Road lengths of those roads on which cameras have been installed.

4) Cost of processing fines issued in relation to offences.

5) Combination of the above (and so-far-FOI-ed data) to determine net economic benefit through cost reduction, relating to the abov..

6) Pre-install and Post-install measures of average speed, number of cars travelling above signposted speed at the points installed, categorisation of speeds in excess of signposted limits.

IE: Let us calculate and determine the ACT-specific Benefit-Cost-Ratio, impact on traffic, and impact on driver behaviour, instead of calculating and criticising on a pure impact on ACT Govt revenue and “These cameras tick me off” basis.

Here_and_Now said :

Tooks said :

As long as they’re spending that revenue wisely, I don’t have a problem with them.

I’ve said it time and time again: if you get caught by a speed camera you are 1) speeding (obviously) and 2) not paying attention ( which is worse than speeding).

+1

+1 (or are we up to +3 now?)

If the government is after some more revenue, I have no problem with it openly coming from the pockets of those who don’t follow the law.

If the government is after some more revenue, I have no problem with it openly coming from the pockets of numptys who haven’t seen 3 separate large warning signs in the 1km before the speed camera that they are approaching a speed camera. (Fixed for you).

Here_and_Now1:19 pm 18 Apr 13

Tooks said :

As long as they’re spending that revenue wisely, I don’t have a problem with them.

I’ve said it time and time again: if you get caught by a speed camera you are 1) speeding (obviously) and 2) not paying attention ( which is worse than speeding).

+1

(That’s Internet for ‘hear, hear’.)

If the government is after some more revenue, I have no problem with it openly coming from the pockets of those who don’t follow the law.

Interesting figures. What was the accident data that led to the Barton Highway Gold Creek cameras? Is it still required now that the new intersection has been installed ?

thebrownstreak6911:20 am 18 Apr 13

Tooks said :

Speed cameras are primarily about revenue; safety is secondary. As long as they’re spending that revenue wisely, I don’t have a problem with them.

I’ve said it time and time again: if you get caught by a speed camera you are 1) speeding (obviously) and 2) not paying attention ( which is worse than speeding).

+1.

Perhaps this data could be used to review some speed limits. The Northbourne/Antill camera is catching so many speeding drivers that it is possible that the speed limit is set too low. Perhaps 70kmh would be more appropriate for this intersection.

bundah said :

Ha no i think it would be far more effective to have a revolving numberplate.

I know in the US they used to sell little lights (lasers) that sat above your number plate and went back and forth very quickly, so in the time taken to expose a photo the light just blurred out the entire number plate. But you could see the plate fine when looking at it with your eyes.

The other way is to have a plastic diffusion cover, like those pictures that change when you view from different angles. The premise is that if you are at an angle to the camera (which you are) then you cannot see through the diffuser to record the number plate. Or have a highly reflective cover that reflects the flash – maybe why infrared flashes are used now?

Of course, all illegal in Australia (and rightly so)

p1 said :

My spray about $peed camera$:

I would support them if they could increase the numbers – and therefore the revenue – to the point where rego (including insurance) became free.

bundah said :

The newer red light/speed cameras apparently have infrared flashes so they’re invisible.

I have often wondered if a heated numberplate would emit enough infrared radiation so as to appear as a washed out blob of light in such a photo….

Ha no i think it would be far more effective to have a revolving numberplate.

My spray about $peed camera$:

I would support them if they could increase the numbers – and therefore the revenue – to the point where rego (including insurance) became free.

bundah said :

The newer red light/speed cameras apparently have infrared flashes so they’re invisible.

I have often wondered if a heated numberplate would emit enough infrared radiation so as to appear as a washed out blob of light in such a photo….

JimCharles said :

What this tells me that the system isn’t working.
One of the most unfathomable ones is the Barton Highway, between Gungahlin Drive and Ellenborough Street (which is also nowhere near the red light despite being described as such).
2010 – 3600 infringements. 2011 – 4223. 2012 – 4888.

That’s a hefty increase, year on year….so it’s NOT making people slowdown.

Except that bit of road is seeing substantial increases in traffic in recent years, so you would expect more tickets anyway. To be able to claim it is not working you would need to work out the number of tickets issued per vehicle passing the camera, and see what the trend for that figure is. So if for example traffic has doubled since 2010, then you are actually looking at a positive result for the cameras because the number of tickets hasn’t doubled.

Speed cameras are primarily about revenue; safety is secondary. As long as they’re spending that revenue wisely, I don’t have a problem with them.

I’ve said it time and time again: if you get caught by a speed camera you are 1) speeding (obviously) and 2) not paying attention ( which is worse than speeding).

@ dtc

The newer red light/speed cameras apparently have infrared flashes so they’re invisible.

But seriously the red light/speed cameras are clearly marked so how hopeless are some people?

JimCharles said :

Bad design all round, but bloody lucrative by the looks of things.

Speaking of lucrative bad design, have the point-to-points on Hindmarsh paid for themselves yet? They’ve earned about $500k so far.

^ relying on others here to check those numbers.

My calculations show that all infringements (speed and red) per camera are:

2010: 893
2011: 983
2012:1062

Thanks for contributing to general revenue. Should get a Like ???? Canberra T-shirt with each payment.

What this tells me that the system isn’t working.
One of the most unfathomable ones is the Barton Highway, between Gungahlin Drive and Ellenborough Street (which is also nowhere near the red light despite being described as such).
2010 – 3600 infringements. 2011 – 4223. 2012 – 4888. That’s a hefty increase, year on year….so it’s NOT making people slowdown.

However, my problem with this location is on the eastbound direction going towards Northbourne. I freely admit to being caught once here, my wife twice. …neither of us having had a speeding ticket or accident in the previous 25 yrs despite driving at a consistently faster speed in an environment with much more traffic and more speed camera’s than you can shake a stick at.
You turn onto Barton Highway from Gungahlin Drive, you only have about 300 metres before the right turn onto Ellenborough Street in which space you’ve got to accelerate up to quick traffic speed, feed in from the left and immediately get across 2 extra lanes of traffic to be able to slow down and get into the right hand feeder for Ellenborough Street.
You have to match or exceed the speed of the traffic (sometimes only for a moment) to safely feed into traffic flow just to get across. If you go too slow, it’s more dangerous because somebody travelling at 80 can pile in the back or you or you end up making them swerve or jam their brakes on.
It’s a really bad place for a camera because if it makes you go too slow under threat of a ticket, that can increase the risk of causing an accident and you put yourself in more danger.
Bad design all round, but bloody lucrative by the looks of things.

So in conclusion: even though people very slowly learn to slow down at particular points on the road, speed cameras still make a lot of easy sweet moolah.

Antill went from around 17 fines per day in 2010, to 14 in 2011, to 9 in 2012. Just a few more years and speeding will be a thing of the past! Yeah, right.

The last three entries in that list would suggest different red light fines for different intersections, or would they be speeding fines? or maybe both?

Are ‘red light’ cameras also speed cameras? That is, can we tell whether people have been busted speeding or for going through a red light?

What happened to the speed cameras in 2012 (eg on Fed Highway) – are they not working?

Also, for the technically minded – a red light camera that I go past regularly used to ‘flash’ after the light turned red every time. Now it doesnt flash at all – does this mean its not working? Looking at the stats that particular camera has dropped from over 1000 breaches in 2010 to, um, 1 in 2012. Which suggests its not working (or has been turned off), although all the physical items and signs are still there.

Interesting that some of the cameras listed as type “red light camera” aren’t at intersections.

I’ve never been sure about this – which side of the intersection is the high-performing Hindmarsh Dr/Ball St red light camera actually aimed at? Is it the traffic coming down Hindmarsh towards Athllon Dr?

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