28 September 2009

The spectre of the VFT rises again

| johnboy
Join the conversation
51

[First filed: July 14, 2009 @ 10:16]

The Canberra Times brings word that dreamers on the North Canberra Community Council and the Canberra Business Council are optimistically trying to kick start a national debate on a high speed inland rail line linking Sydney, Canberra, and Melbourne.

Apparently they’ve got some un-named local business people muttering about maybe providing some sort of support in future. Not that the combined investment power of the entire Canberra business community could come within 400 miles of funding such a project even if they were inclined to do so, which they are not. They’d just really like to make some money from the taxpayers paying for it.

Canberra’s market for rail transport doesn’t even justify electrified rail services, something most of the rest of the developed world knocked over forty years ago. (yes I realise that if there was a faster service people might choose not to fly or drive)

It should, however, be noted that the Chief Minister is making encouraging noises:

    ACT Chief Minister Jon Stanhope says a very fast train linking Canberra to other major cities on the eastern seaboard is not a pipe dream but inevitable.

But check out this statement for an idea just how blue sky this lot is:

    Other interests such as the North Canberra Community Council have suggested the airport should be kept out of the equation and a very fast train taken into the heart of the city.

So they want to cut Canberra in half and build an overpass for every single road crossing this sucker? You can’t do level crossings for very fast rail lines.

It’s well worth noting that countries with successful high speed rail services already had extensive rail networks and all share high population densities.

Very Fast Train

View Results

Loading ... Loading ...

Photo:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kossy/ / CC BY 2.0

Join the conversation

51
All Comments
  • All Comments
  • Website Comments
LatestOldest

Skidd Marx said :

The bottom line is we don’t have the population to sustain such a radical and astronomically costly undertaking.

The viability of train services is less about the population of cities along the route, and more about how many people use the route. I seem to remember reading (in perhaps the last feasibility study?) that the Sydney to Melbourne route has the third busiest air corridor in terms of passenger volume world wide. I’m sure a lot of those people choose to fly not because it is their preferred choice, but because they have no choice.

I arrived back from Japan recently, and I couldn’t believe what an excellent mode of transport the Shinkansen (bullet train) is. Quiet, roomy, comfortable, and very quick to board, I’d take it over flying any day.

jackthemartin5:38 pm 15 Jul 09

More responses to piratemonkey’s ten points. Overall there would be some significant benefits to a high-speed railway, but not nearly enough to justify the costs (for a small place like Canberra.)

1) Trains are more convenient then planes. You can get on and off much faster being a big plus
Agree. Most particularly, trains don’t involve a trip to the airport (but it’s worth remembering that not many people want to travel from CBD to CBD either)

2) Trains can run on electricity while planes need jet fuel. Jet fuel keeps getting more expensive due to oil getting more scarce and harder to extract.
Agree.

3) Electric trains can be run greener. Through use of renewable energy.
Agree – while electricity and jet fuel are both very polluting now, there is more of a prospect of electricity becoming cleaner

4) Trains are cheaper and quicker to build (once tracks are in place)
Once the tracks are in place? Maybe, depending on the technology… but the fact that the tracks are prohibitively expensive should kill the proposal, despite all the benefits.

5) Trains scale in size much better for both people and freight.
Planes scale OK for people – it is possible to Qantas to run full flights off-peak just by using a smaller plane.

6) Trains are much more reliable then planes.
Agree – with a dedicated track the problems afflicting Cityrail would be avoided

7) Trains are much quiter then planes
Doubtful, except near airports (the noise made by the Maglev train pictured has raised significant community ire in China)

8) One might even argue trains are safer then planes with fewer things to go wrong.
One might, but without looking at stats it’s futile to argue either way I think

9) Luggage isn’t as big a problem with trains
Probably true

housebound said :

But that’s all just some wild view that public investment should have social and environmental as well as economic benefits.

You radical, you.

It would be refreshing if this kind of thinking could be added to teh current rampant economic rationalist thinking.

I reckon, with all my (zero) years of expertise in this area, that they should focus on Brisbane-Sydney-Melbourne, and aim to recapture the freight traffic on that line. The resulting efficiencies could then be used to boost passenger services as well.

The next step would be for NSW to start looking at an active decentralisation policy, to take the pressure off the Sydney region, by investing in the regional towns along the line (some of these towns are already groth centres in their own right).

At this point, investment in the Canberra-Goulburn/Yass/Sydney link starts to look rational.

But that’s all just some wild view that public investment should have social and environmental as well as economic benefits.

Probably the best way for any VFT proposal to have any chance of success would be if Goulburn or Canberra were to be designated the second airport for Sydney. A second airport outside the Sydney basin is going to have viability issues if there isn’t complementary infrastructures to support the transport of goods/passengers into Sydney (or on to Melbourne).

Of course given that they’ve been talking about Badgery’s Creek for 20 years, and exploring other options for 10, so I don’t think there will be very fast approval…

Wraith said :

Half of the world is doing it now, why not.

That doesn’t make it a good idea…

Also just to comment on your points Piratemonkey

1 – True, at suburban stops, it’s quicker, but without checked baggage, you can get off a plane very quickly, and getting onto a train (for example sitting in CBR when travelling up to SYD or vice versa) can take quite some time, and whilst it’s not as long as what is required for air transport, keep in mind that air transport is much quicker even against the VFT once your moving.

2 – We’re still burning fossil fuels to make electricity, also they are currently finding ways to run planes on bio fuels. Whilst green power exists, it’d need to be a far greater percentage to power the VFT and call the VFT a green project.

3 – See point two

4 – An individual train may be cheaper than a plane, but don’t forget maintenance of both the train itself and the track it runs on.

5 – To a degree yes, but Australia also has a love obsession with trucks, so if a load of freight takes 4 hours rather than 2 hours I doubt it’ll have a major enough difference (not to mention the triple handling required) to justify the cost. Besides airfreight is still an option when speed is the key.

6 – Tell that to the average city rail traveller…

7 – For whom? Those sitting in the vehicle or those sitting outside it? Once a plane is in the air (and at a high enough altitude) they are virtually silent to the outside world. I’m not sure that the farmers between here and Sydney would feel the same way about a train.

8 – I’m calling BS on this one, Planes are held to extremely high safety margines, also whilst I don’t have the figures on me, I’m pretty sure that more people have been injured or killed in Australia on commercial train transport than commercial air transport.

9 – True, but if your commuting the luggage allowance isn’t an overly big concern. I myself have done 50 commuting flights in the last couple of years, having loads of luggage would have been a hindrance be it plane or train.

I’m not against the idea, it’s just it is both a large amount of money required, the cost vs advantages do not necessary outweigh the current transport options, and again you need to get two (or three) states to all agree on it, and then have numerous councils put in their input, otherwise you’ll end up with GDE mark 2.

40-60 billion? Think not.

Build the train, leave out the airport, I’m for that. Train is a far more entertaining way to travel, unless someone else is paying, why fly to Sydney, or even Melbourne, train travel would be infinitely better.

Half of the world is doing it now, why not.

But I love trains too.

Piratemonkey9:11 pm 14 Jul 09

While I too am believe such a train is unlikely i really don’t see how people think its a bad idea.

1) Trains are more convenient then planes. You can get on and off much faster being a big plus
2) Trains can run on electricity while planes need jet fuel. Jet fuel keeps getting more expensive due to oil getting more scarce and harder to extract.
3) Electric trains can be run greener. Through use of renewable energy.
4) Trains are cheaper and quicker to build (once tracks are in place)
5) Trains scale in size much better for both people and freight.
6) Trains are much more reliable then planes.
7) Trains are much quiter then planes
8) One might even argue trains are safer then planes with fewer things to go wrong.
9) Luggage isn’t as big a problem with trains

Hell let the airport build it. Throw in a light rail link to civic and you have the perfect solution. While noise is a bitch canberra being sydneys second airport has huge economic bonuses for canberra.

It is amusing when Thalys, the Belgian VFT crosses international borders and yet Vic, NSW and ACT can’t get their act together.

Problem is that the gov’t is shelling out money for troops fighting overseas, building comfy new jails, bearing the ever increasing cost of keeping asylum seekers and giving money away to Indonesia, PNG, etc. There just isn’t enough money to go around. Is this VFT a priority? If so then money has to be diverted from elsewhere.

Canberra to Melbourne or Canberra to Sydney return in a day is already very possible using planes, at an extremely cheap price, the example you give of high paying contractors being willing to part with $150 to $200 per day in commuting costs would still be few and far between (and some of those would still catch planes just because). What needs to happen is the infrastructure be upgraded at either end which would make it more than possible to commute on a daily basis between these 3 cities (aka no long taxi lines, and whilst Sydney has got something going with it’s airport link, Melbourne is lacking big time, and Skybus doesn’t hack it, as for Canberra…). The problem isn’t the bit in the middle between the various cities themselves, it’s the bit between the airports and the city centres which need a good overhaul. (I know it’s not what train buffs want to hear).

If you want to convince me otherwise show me one other country which is the same size as Australia (ok lets shorten that to the eastern corridor) with a similar population which has been able to get a maglev system up and running efficiently?

JC said :

The problem with Maglev technology is it is not compatibile with existing lines (so poses difficulties getting into city centres such as Sydney), it is very costly and the speed advantage is not all that much greater than modern steel wheel technology. On paper an extra 150km/h seems a lot, but in practice it isn’t especially for the cost.

Sure but steel wheel is near it’s max whereas maglev is just beginning so has much further to grow in the future.

If you want a bit of light reading have a look at the East Coast Very High Speed Train Scoping Study Phase 1 – Preliminary Study Final Report (be warned it’s 42 MB PDF) from 2002. It does a brief analysis of the various corridors including Sydney/Canberra.

The way I see it is it’s not the end to end run that’s the important one, but the parts closer to each end. eg live in Goulburn, come to Canberra for work each day, or for a shopping trip, or a night out etc. The end to end run is just an added bonus. The other thing is they would have to run frequently enough to make them useful to as many people as possible.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

The whole point is that it doesn’t have to be as fast as flying (airport to airport), it just just has to be as fast as city centre to city centre. Once you take taxis each way and faffing around at the airport out of the equation, I reckon getting central Canberra to central Sydney in 2 hours would be fine. Canberra to Sydney is what – 250kms? Even with a couple a quick stops a train that could reliably average 160km/h would probably be fast enough.

And if it could be done for reasonable prices (ie less than $100 a seat), it would get a pretty good following. I’d use it over flying any day.

Whilst you are right about travel times, the problem with Canberra/Sydney is the existing line cannot be upgraded to 160km/h. So you would need a new line so may as well that bit more and go for 350km/h, using steel on steel of course. In Canberra it should terminate in the City not at the airport, so bring it in near Watson and put it under Northbourne and build a tram on top when finished.

The problem with Maglev technology is it is not compatibile with existing lines (so poses difficulties getting into city centres such as Sydney), it is very costly and the speed advantage is not all that much greater than modern steel wheel technology. On paper an extra 150km/h seems a lot, but in practice it isn’t especially for the cost.

Rudd should have built a VFT instead of repainting school halls and buying people new TVs

We had a once in a lifetime opportunity (huge government surplus waiting to be spent at the same time as the biggest economic downturn since the 1930s) and it’s been blown without much to show for it except that we’ve avoided a “technical recession” by boosting retail spending for one quarter.

They’ve been talking about this since i was a kid too. Surely this means it is inevitable.

old canberran5:35 pm 14 Jul 09

It’ll never happen. They’ve been talking about this idea for 30 years.

grunge_hippy4:48 pm 14 Jul 09

they’ve been talking about this since i was a kid.\

it will never happen.

Holden Caulfield3:46 pm 14 Jul 09

RandomGit said :

Underground, in a brave new world, with just a handful of men, they can start all over again.

Haha, awesome!

Yes Skidd

But Syd and Melb do have the populations – and putting the line via Canberra is viable if the run is from Syd to Melb….

A Syd to Canb line only would indeed be useless….

Trains are cool, no doubt about it, and a MagLev one would be great. But with airfares consistently between $25 and $50 for a flight from Canberra to Melbourne, I don’t know if there would be much market for it!

Skidd Marx said :

I was wondering when this retarded idea would resurface.

The bottom line is we don’t have the population to sustain such a radical and astronomically costly undertaking.

Now lets move on and get back to making cars fly…

I agree, a Sydney to Canberra VFT is not viable. But I would think that a Melb – Can – Sydney line with extensions to Newcastle – Gold Coast – Brisbane would be viable… especially in 10 -15 years (the time it would probably take to build this) when our fuel prices will continue to increase & population grows – especially along the east coast.

There is also the economic benefit of job creation in building the actual line. I would say that this project (if it ever happens) would rival the Snowy Mountains Scheme in terms of nation building.

Either way, there is no harm in actually getting a study to show us the pros & cons of the project… especially its viability.

I was wondering when this retarded idea would resurface.

The bottom line is we don’t have the population to sustain such a radical and astronomically costly undertaking.

Now lets move on and get back to making cars fly…

johnboy said :

Generally the trains enclose the track, there’s no daylight.

Have a look at the photos on the wiki page.

This wiki page is a better one, first photo on right
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transrapid

look further down and you’ll see a fmailiar one 🙂

Danman said :

RandomGit said :

In the cellar was a tunnel scarcely ten yards long, that had taken him a week to dig. I could have dug that much in a day, and I suddenly had my first inkling of the gulf between his dreams and his powers.

ah ha, that’s what that was from! Now I recognise it.

I think a decent, common garden modern train service is the go. One that can take people AND stuff. Long haul bulk truck transport is a disaster and it’s a disgrace they dug up train lines everywhere. Remember, we pay for those roads the trucks are on, and they are what messes up the roads, making holes and lumps and bumps needing fixing.

RandomGit said :

Underground, in a brave new world, with just a handful of men, they can start all over again.

In the cellar was a tunnel scarcely ten yards long, that had taken him a week to dig. I could have dug that much in a day, and I suddenly had my first inkling of the gulf between his dreams and his powers.

Sounds very Stanhopian huh ?

So what we need is not some exotic passenger service, we need good old fashioned double track electrified rail all the way to Sydney via Goulburn.

Which would, incidentally, make for a much, much better passenger service too.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy1:04 pm 14 Jul 09

timgee2007 said :

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

Although at an hour, it would be viable to live in Canberra and commute to Sydney for work.

Uh yeah – at $100 a seat?

Coulda sworn I read a whole lot of whinging and whining around here about the price of an adult bus ticket going up 80c to $3.80…so as long as the VFT, BFT or Cbr-Syd monorail can get you from city (centre) to city (centre) in under an hour and for less than $3.80, it’ll be a ripper!

(But what about those in Tuggeranong, Belconnnen, Queanbeyan, etc.?)

Don’t underestimate the ability of well paid professionals to pay. I know guys who live in Sydney but work in Canberra at $150-200 an hour. If they could travel home each night rather than pay for a hotel (and work on the train each way), it becomes extremely viable.

Rail for freight is mostly dead in this country. Truck rules supreme.

Having a rail link coming into Canberra to move the goods from port or interstate, as per your last sentence is what it is all about I reckon.

Exposing the ACT production folk to cheaper, easier movement of goods to port for export.
Meeting all the ACT Govt’s clap trap about clean, environemntly friendly industry practices (transport of goods to market is seen as a major environmental cost).

The point about double handling is bang on, but I am thinking Stanhope is after this as it opens up ACT industry to easier exporting/receiving of goods, which shouldn’t be dismissed.

S4anta said :

I think you might find that the rationale for this is not for passenger transport.

There is quite sound reasoning for rail infratsructure to be used for the transport of goods, rather than road/air based freight. If the system is good enough it will eventually lead to lower costs to market which means lower price at point of sale.

Think greenhouse & carbon footprint costs, resealing of roads, bleh, bleh bleh.

Having a terminal point at the airport ties in with the whole frieght hub idea for Canberra airport for int’l goods coming into the Sydney market.

Going off on tangents about people moving is a too smaller scope on this one methinks. Rail infrastructure is a hell lot more than just passengers and train nerds looking at puffing billy.

VFT technologies are rarely compatible with freight. Now if we’re talking about standard electrified dual track between all major cities that would be very useful and great for freight.

But rail v. truck suffers greatly with double handling. Why load a container onto a truck, drive it to the rail-yard, load it on a train, wait for the train to arrive at the other end, load it back onto a truck and drive it to where it’s needed when you can just drive the first truck to the destination?

Goods produced adjacent to railway lines, or arriving on ships, going to other destinations also on railway lines, however, are a different story.

Peewee Slasher said :

I look forward to the VFT (Very Fast Train). If we’re going to consider this technological leap forwards, we should also investigate the BFT (Bloody Fast Train).

The BFT is the VFT with bells on. It should reduce commuting time between Canberra and Sydney to 1/2 hour.

Now, as for the FFT…

um, fairly fast train?

or will that be the ‘frequently failing train’?

I think you might find that the rationale for this is not for passenger transport.

There is quite sound reasoning for rail infratsructure to be used for the transport of goods, rather than road/air based freight. If the system is good enough it will eventually lead to lower costs to market which means lower price at point of sale.

Think greenhouse & carbon footprint costs, resealing of roads, bleh, bleh bleh.

Having a terminal point at the airport ties in with the whole frieght hub idea for Canberra airport for int’l goods coming into the Sydney market.

Going off on tangents about people moving is a too smaller scope on this one methinks. Rail infrastructure is a hell lot more than just passengers and train nerds looking at puffing billy.

Where are the greenies on this? What is the embodied energy/carbon impact to manufacture, build, operate this vs. air travel/cars for the next 20 years? How can they guarantee usage at a level/adoption rate that would offset the huge impact in constructing it in the first instance? Would your “green appeal” entice you to buy a comparatively expensive ticket vs. jumping on one of Qantas’/Vrigin’s $69 one-way fares? To Sydney and back for under $150 if you pick the right flights? Money vs. a better world. Hmm.

Too much money, too little benefit.

unless the Federales pay for all of it of course, then it would be a great idea.

Underground, in a brave new world, with just a handful of men, they can start all over again.

It’ll probably never happen (and certainly not in the foreseeable future). Look at the fuss that was put up for a few KM’s worth of road with the GDE. Your talking about building a rail system which is approx 30 times the length, going across state lines, and through various councils which may or may not get benefit from it (lets face it, it’s not going to do the run from CBR – SYD in 2 hours if it has to stop every couple of minutes), not to mention the expense of such a project, and if it’s not an improvement on current airline options (in price, speed city center to city center and capacity) it’ll be looked upon as a giant waste of money.

Actually in China the outraged locals are pretty good at rising up with stout sticks and beating the crap out of the bulldozer drivers.

The extension of the Shanghai maglev in fact is currently held up due to residents along the route taking resolute and direct action against it.

You’d be OK with a fast train going through your backyard then, punkarella?

This will not happen in my lifetime. Too much interstate red tape, and no doubt protesters worried about the train going thru there back yard, noise complaints etc.. the list of possible problems is endless. Now in a China they wouldn’t have even consulted the people, they would have just rocked up with bulldosers and given you 2 mins to get your stuff. I have to say, that’s how you do it!

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

Although at an hour, it would be viable to live in Canberra and commute to Sydney for work.

Uh yeah – at $100 a seat?

Coulda sworn I read a whole lot of whinging and whining around here about the price of an adult bus ticket going up 80c to $3.80…so as long as the VFT, BFT or Cbr-Syd monorail can get you from city (centre) to city (centre) in under an hour and for less than $3.80, it’ll be a ripper!

(But what about those in Tuggeranong, Belconnnen, Queanbeyan, etc.?)

Looks like what they are really asking for is a reasonable commute service for pubes who want to live in Sydney. That whole ‘Canberra is just an office’ thing has really stuck.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy11:34 am 14 Jul 09

I still think there’s an issue of cost versus time. If it costs twice as much to take an hour as opposed to two hours, would you really bother? Although at an hour, it would be viable to live in Canberra and commute to Sydney for work.

(Hmmm, wonder what that will do to property values…?)

Lyle Lanley: Well, sir, there’s nothing on earth
Like a genuine,
Bona fide,
Electrified,
Six-car
Monorail!
What’d I say?
Ned Flanders: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: What’s it called?
Patty+Selma: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: That’s right! Monorail!
[crowd chants `Monorail’ softly and rhythmically]
Miss Hoover: I hear those things are awfully loud…
Lyle Lanley: It glides as softly as a cloud.
Apu: Is there a chance the track could bend?
Lyle Lanley: Not on your life, my Hindu friend.
Barney: What about us brain-dead slobs?
Lyle Lanley: You’ll be given cushy jobs.
Abe: Were you sent here by the devil?
Lyle Lanley: No, good sir, I’m on the level.
Wiggum: The ring came off my pudding can.
Lyle Lanley: Take my pen knife, my good man.
I swear it’s Springfield’s only choice…
Throw up your hands and raise your voice!
All: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: What’s it called?
All: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: Once again…
All: Monorail!
Marge: But Main Street’s still all cracked and broken…
Bart: Sorry, Mom, the mob has spoken!
All: Monorail!
Monorail!
Monorail!
[big finish]
Monorail!
Homer: Mono… D’oh!

I am certain that one of the less public business interests prodding this along is Canberra Airport. A VFT of some sort has been part of their plan from the start, it’s vital to a lot of what they want to do with the airport (the flying bit of the airport, that is).

There’s also some quite detailed plans floating around the bit of the gov’t to do with ACT affairs, with the route already drawn in (and several options), and it comes down Majura Valley, next to the airport and has at least one terminal there.

Generally the trains enclose the track, there’s no daylight.

Have a look at the photos on the wiki page.

Peewee Slasher10:51 am 14 Jul 09

I look forward to the VFT (Very Fast Train). If we’re going to consider this technological leap forwards, we should also investigate the BFT (Bloody Fast Train).

The BFT is the VFT with bells on. It should reduce commuting time between Canberra and Sydney to 1/2 hour.

Now, as for the FFT…

johnboy said :

deye said :

Use a maglev and elevate it, that way you don’t have to worry about cows, kangaroos, wombats, pedestrians or crossings 😉

That 1 centimetre clearance will be much appreciated by ants.

It’s a maglev in the picture.

At a station. It can be whatever height above the ground you want. You wouldn’t want it too high though.

I hope it arrives at a place a little more central than canberra train station. $15 greyhound from jollimont is pretty hard to beat tbh.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy10:37 am 14 Jul 09

The whole point is that it doesn’t have to be as fast as flying (airport to airport), it just just has to be as fast as city centre to city centre. Once you take taxis each way and faffing around at the airport out of the equation, I reckon getting central Canberra to central Sydney in 2 hours would be fine. Canberra to Sydney is what – 250kms? Even with a couple a quick stops a train that could reliably average 160km/h would probably be fast enough.

And if it could be done for reasonable prices (ie less than $100 a seat), it would get a pretty good following. I’d use it over flying any day.

deye said :

Use a maglev and elevate it, that way you don’t have to worry about cows, kangaroos, wombats, pedestrians or crossings 😉

That 1 centimetre clearance will be much appreciated by ants.

It’s a maglev in the picture.

Use a maglev and elevate it, that way you don’t have to worry about cows, kangaroos, wombats, pedestrians or crossings 😉

Daily Digest

Want the best Canberra news delivered daily? Every day we package the most popular Riotact stories and send them straight to your inbox. Sign-up now for trusted local news that will never be behind a paywall.

By submitting your email address you are agreeing to Region Group's terms and conditions and privacy policy.