The State of Fear

John Hargreaves 19 April 2016 69
secret-stock

I read a book recently by Michael Crichton called the State of Fear in which the theory of that state of fear was described. It is the notion that a government (or ruling body/dictator) keeps the community under control by creating a monster that only they can protect against. The Australian example in the 1950s was the “Reds Under the Beds” scare. This elected the Menzies government.

The Australian forward defence policy in the 1960s and 70s was based on this philosophy. We had to go overseas to stop the advancing communists, who were charging down the Indo-Chinese Peninsula. This was manifested in our involvement in the Vietnam War.

The weapons of mass destruction lie was another perpetrated by the US in the middle-east and its involvement, with our support, should be partly responsible for the religious based strife currently raging there.

On a local level the Cronulla riots was used by anti-Muslim interests to further this fear of Islam. It faded away for a while and was roundly rejected here in the ACT. It’s back.

The current federal Government is using this fear to show how tough it can be in the anti-terrorists stakes. It has used the notion of boat people to further this fear of people coming in their hordes to our shores and has mounted a thinly disguised military campaign against a few hundred people at a time.

Now we are seeing the state of fear philosophy being used to describe the kids being trained as locally grown terrorists. A Sydney daily paper had a sensational article on this very subject only today.

I don’t like this theory and philosophy. It is scary.

It whips up hysteria and then comes up with a strategy to fix the problem it invented.

I think we may be being taken for a bit of a ride here.


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John Hargreaves Ex MLA John Hargreaves Ex MLA 10:39 am 29 Aug 14

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

If you haven’t been watching the live presentation from the National Press Club by David Irvine, Director General of ASIO, then I suggest you follow it up and perhaps you could then give a re-assessment of your statement “we are being taken for a bit of a ride here”.
I look forward to your comments.

And you believed our non so secret super spy? It quacks like a duck

I’ll take that as you haven’t watched it yet.
Your federal Labor mates appointed David Irvine in 2009.
I guess groupthink was “we already have a Swan so why not a duck as well?”

I didn’t know that Super Spies were there to explain Government policy. I thought the pollies were there to do that.

If you watched the presentation you would understand that the existence of terrorism has nothing to do with “government policy”.

Apologist

Calling me an apologist in this instance is saying:
“You are correct about what David Irvine said and have facts to back it up but I won’t agree with you and tell you that because I want to pretend I’m right.”
BTW, I am a proud member of Team Australia.

I don’t say that Irvine was wrong in how he identified the real threat, I challenge his right to do so. It is the job of those we vote for and hold accountable. It should have been Abbott’s or Morrison’s call. I disagree with the notion that people such as Irvine should make statements about policy. And my views are shared. check the Canberra Times Op piece today.

And if you are on Team Australia, who is your opposition? Do you suggest that people who don’t share your position are against Team Australia? What a silly analogy for the PM to make.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA John Hargreaves Ex MLA 10:36 am 29 Aug 14

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

rosscoact said :

dungfungus said :

goody658 said :

Totally agree. Watch the sabre rattling get worse as his polls go lower.

His?
Who exactly are you referring to?.

I believe, from reading the OP, that contained the words “the current Federal government” in the 5th last para that goody658 is probably referring to the leader of that government. Just a guess.

If that is indeed the case then goody568 is wrong as the Abbott government has achieved its best two-party-preferred poll result since before its budget.
The latest Newspoll shows Labor ahead by 51 to 49 per cent.

Nuff said. Govt needs a scare campaign to improve its standing. It has been said before that if you want to keep yourself in governance, a war is really handy…

You mean to say smiling children holding severed heads isn’t scary enough for you?

it is very scary as was the picture of the naked Vietnamese girl running from her burning village, and covered in burning napalm. Let’s not get too selective here.

The difference is that the photo of the burning girl in Vietnam helped turn public opinion against the war. Sure, she was an innocent victim but she was not deliberately targeted.
The be-headings and involvement of smiling children is done deliberately as are the children in Gaza are placed in the line of fire.
John, you should study psychiatry and you may discover that what these people are doing is repugnant to us but it is normal behaviour to them.
These horrible images of severed heads are only inuring us for what is yet to come and people like you that espouse a “live and let live” dogma should consider that soon it will have to be “kill or be killed”.
Sorry if that offends some people but that is the way it is.

So, you’ve studied psychiatric then?

I don’t think one can study “psychiatric” but I was told of this type of human behaviour by a psychiatrist at a social gathering.
Someone was discussing a report in the media about some low life grabbing a pensioner’s handbag after knocking her to the ground and someone commented “how can someone sleep at night after doing that?”.
The psychiatrist chimed in and said “that person will sleep quite well because he was engaging in normal behaviour”.

So your post is validated by an unknown psychiatrist interrupting a discussion taking about someone who has done something? Must be true then.

dungfungus dungfungus 9:56 pm 28 Aug 14

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

If you haven’t been watching the live presentation from the National Press Club by David Irvine, Director General of ASIO, then I suggest you follow it up and perhaps you could then give a re-assessment of your statement “we are being taken for a bit of a ride here”.
I look forward to your comments.

And you believed our non so secret super spy? It quacks like a duck

I’ll take that as you haven’t watched it yet.
Your federal Labor mates appointed David Irvine in 2009.
I guess groupthink was “we already have a Swan so why not a duck as well?”

I didn’t know that Super Spies were there to explain Government policy. I thought the pollies were there to do that.

If you watched the presentation you would understand that the existence of terrorism has nothing to do with “government policy”.

Apologist

Calling me an apologist in this instance is saying:
“You are correct about what David Irvine said and have facts to back it up but I won’t agree with you and tell you that because I want to pretend I’m right.”
BTW, I am a proud member of Team Australia.

dungfungus dungfungus 8:57 pm 28 Aug 14

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

rosscoact said :

dungfungus said :

goody658 said :

Totally agree. Watch the sabre rattling get worse as his polls go lower.

His?
Who exactly are you referring to?.

I believe, from reading the OP, that contained the words “the current Federal government” in the 5th last para that goody658 is probably referring to the leader of that government. Just a guess.

If that is indeed the case then goody568 is wrong as the Abbott government has achieved its best two-party-preferred poll result since before its budget.
The latest Newspoll shows Labor ahead by 51 to 49 per cent.

Nuff said. Govt needs a scare campaign to improve its standing. It has been said before that if you want to keep yourself in governance, a war is really handy…

You mean to say smiling children holding severed heads isn’t scary enough for you?

it is very scary as was the picture of the naked Vietnamese girl running from her burning village, and covered in burning napalm. Let’s not get too selective here.

The difference is that the photo of the burning girl in Vietnam helped turn public opinion against the war. Sure, she was an innocent victim but she was not deliberately targeted.
The be-headings and involvement of smiling children is done deliberately as are the children in Gaza are placed in the line of fire.
John, you should study psychiatry and you may discover that what these people are doing is repugnant to us but it is normal behaviour to them.
These horrible images of severed heads are only inuring us for what is yet to come and people like you that espouse a “live and let live” dogma should consider that soon it will have to be “kill or be killed”.
Sorry if that offends some people but that is the way it is.

So, you’ve studied psychiatric then?

I don’t think one can study “psychiatric” but I was told of this type of human behaviour by a psychiatrist at a social gathering.
Someone was discussing a report in the media about some low life grabbing a pensioner’s handbag after knocking her to the ground and someone commented “how can someone sleep at night after doing that?”.
The psychiatrist chimed in and said “that person will sleep quite well because he was engaging in normal behaviour”.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA John Hargreaves Ex MLA 8:06 pm 28 Aug 14

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

rosscoact said :

dungfungus said :

goody658 said :

Totally agree. Watch the sabre rattling get worse as his polls go lower.

His?
Who exactly are you referring to?.

I believe, from reading the OP, that contained the words “the current Federal government” in the 5th last para that goody658 is probably referring to the leader of that government. Just a guess.

If that is indeed the case then goody568 is wrong as the Abbott government has achieved its best two-party-preferred poll result since before its budget.
The latest Newspoll shows Labor ahead by 51 to 49 per cent.

Nuff said. Govt needs a scare campaign to improve its standing. It has been said before that if you want to keep yourself in governance, a war is really handy…

You mean to say smiling children holding severed heads isn’t scary enough for you?

it is very scary as was the picture of the naked Vietnamese girl running from her burning village, and covered in burning napalm. Let’s not get too selective here.

The difference is that the photo of the burning girl in Vietnam helped turn public opinion against the war. Sure, she was an innocent victim but she was not deliberately targeted.
The be-headings and involvement of smiling children is done deliberately as are the children in Gaza are placed in the line of fire.
John, you should study psychiatry and you may discover that what these people are doing is repugnant to us but it is normal behaviour to them.
These horrible images of severed heads are only inuring us for what is yet to come and people like you that espouse a “live and let live” dogma should consider that soon it will have to be “kill or be killed”.
Sorry if that offends some people but that is the way it is.

So, you’ve studied psychiatric then?

John Hargreaves Ex MLA John Hargreaves Ex MLA 8:03 pm 28 Aug 14

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

If you haven’t been watching the live presentation from the National Press Club by David Irvine, Director General of ASIO, then I suggest you follow it up and perhaps you could then give a re-assessment of your statement “we are being taken for a bit of a ride here”.
I look forward to your comments.

And you believed our non so secret super spy? It quacks like a duck

I’ll take that as you haven’t watched it yet.
Your federal Labor mates appointed David Irvine in 2009.
I guess groupthink was “we already have a Swan so why not a duck as well?”

I didn’t know that Super Spies were there to explain Government policy. I thought the pollies were there to do that.

If you watched the presentation you would understand that the existence of terrorism has nothing to do with “government policy”.

Apologist

dungfungus dungfungus 2:07 pm 28 Aug 14

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

it is very scary as was the picture of the naked Vietnamese girl running from her burning village, and covered in burning napalm. Let’s not get too selective here.

This is well worth a look, I think:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/regionals/west/2013/02/14/kim-phuc-girl-famous-vietnam-photo-talks-about-forgiveness/BrLEcMnoycAj90gHbCJPBJ/story.html

Then again it’s very difficult for a head subdivided from a body to express forgiveness.

VYBerlinaV8_is_back VYBerlinaV8_is_back 12:36 pm 28 Aug 14

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

it is very scary as was the picture of the naked Vietnamese girl running from her burning village, and covered in burning napalm. Let’s not get too selective here.

This is well worth a look, I think:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/regionals/west/2013/02/14/kim-phuc-girl-famous-vietnam-photo-talks-about-forgiveness/BrLEcMnoycAj90gHbCJPBJ/story.html

dungfungus dungfungus 12:32 pm 28 Aug 14

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

rosscoact said :

dungfungus said :

goody658 said :

Totally agree. Watch the sabre rattling get worse as his polls go lower.

His?
Who exactly are you referring to?.

I believe, from reading the OP, that contained the words “the current Federal government” in the 5th last para that goody658 is probably referring to the leader of that government. Just a guess.

If that is indeed the case then goody568 is wrong as the Abbott government has achieved its best two-party-preferred poll result since before its budget.
The latest Newspoll shows Labor ahead by 51 to 49 per cent.

Nuff said. Govt needs a scare campaign to improve its standing. It has been said before that if you want to keep yourself in governance, a war is really handy…

You mean to say smiling children holding severed heads isn’t scary enough for you?

it is very scary as was the picture of the naked Vietnamese girl running from her burning village, and covered in burning napalm. Let’s not get too selective here.

The difference is that the photo of the burning girl in Vietnam helped turn public opinion against the war. Sure, she was an innocent victim but she was not deliberately targeted.
The be-headings and involvement of smiling children is done deliberately as are the children in Gaza are placed in the line of fire.
John, you should study psychiatry and you may discover that what these people are doing is repugnant to us but it is normal behaviour to them.
These horrible images of severed heads are only inuring us for what is yet to come and people like you that espouse a “live and let live” dogma should consider that soon it will have to be “kill or be killed”.
Sorry if that offends some people but that is the way it is.

Matt Watts Matt Watts 12:30 pm 28 Aug 14

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

If you haven’t been watching the live presentation from the National Press Club by David Irvine, Director General of ASIO, then I suggest you follow it up and perhaps you could then give a re-assessment of your statement “we are being taken for a bit of a ride here”.
I look forward to your comments.

And you believed our non so secret super spy? It quacks like a duck

I’ll take that as you haven’t watched it yet.
Your federal Labor mates appointed David Irvine in 2009.
I guess groupthink was “we already have a Swan so why not a duck as well?”

I didn’t know that Super Spies were there to explain Government policy. I thought the pollies were there to do that.

Seems some ACT pollies are happy to stand behind public servants (eg Human Rights Commissioner) rather than defend their own legislation/ policies.

Masquara Masquara 12:27 pm 28 Aug 14

John Hargreaves, starting a post shouldn’t give you carte blanche to hog the comments.

dungfungus dungfungus 12:14 pm 28 Aug 14

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

If you haven’t been watching the live presentation from the National Press Club by David Irvine, Director General of ASIO, then I suggest you follow it up and perhaps you could then give a re-assessment of your statement “we are being taken for a bit of a ride here”.
I look forward to your comments.

And you believed our non so secret super spy? It quacks like a duck

I’ll take that as you haven’t watched it yet.
Your federal Labor mates appointed David Irvine in 2009.
I guess groupthink was “we already have a Swan so why not a duck as well?”

I didn’t know that Super Spies were there to explain Government policy. I thought the pollies were there to do that.

If you watched the presentation you would understand that the existence of terrorism has nothing to do with “government policy”.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA John Hargreaves Ex MLA 12:02 pm 28 Aug 14

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

If you haven’t been watching the live presentation from the National Press Club by David Irvine, Director General of ASIO, then I suggest you follow it up and perhaps you could then give a re-assessment of your statement “we are being taken for a bit of a ride here”.
I look forward to your comments.

And you believed our non so secret super spy? It quacks like a duck

I’ll take that as you haven’t watched it yet.
Your federal Labor mates appointed David Irvine in 2009.
I guess groupthink was “we already have a Swan so why not a duck as well?”

I didn’t know that Super Spies were there to explain Government policy. I thought the pollies were there to do that.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA John Hargreaves Ex MLA 12:01 pm 28 Aug 14

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

If you haven’t been watching the live presentation from the National Press Club by David Irvine, Director General of ASIO, then I suggest you follow it up and perhaps you could then give a re-assessment of your statement “we are being taken for a bit of a ride here”.
I look forward to your comments.

And you believed our non so secret super spy? It quacks like a duck

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

justin heywood said :

So to summarise then,

– troubles in the middle east that have incredible complexity and a historical background stretching back decades, if not centuries, can all be attributed to America. Simple really. Apparently things were just dandy before the Americans got involved.

– troubles in Australia; well we don’t have any real problems in Australia – it’s all a beat up – but if we do, then obviously they are the fault of the conservatives (who only just got into power).

– We have learned from several of John’s previous posts about the dangers of Catholicism, but any fear of Islam is fabricated and used to manipulate the ignorant.

It seems that all we need to do is see sense and vote for John’s party, and everything will be be OK.

The book the OP refers to is total fiction which isn’t declared.
I would suggest to John that he read some factual reference books such as “The Geopolitics of Emotion” by Dominique Moisi.
On the subject of Saddam having WMDs being a lie, I am surprised how everyone seems to have forgotten that Saddam was building a super artillery cannon that could fire shells (as big as a VW Beetle” to anywhere in the Middle East.
He also fired SCUD missiles with chemical warheads into Tel Aviv did he not?
Next thing Johno will be saying 9/11 didn’t happen.

The book by Crichton is a fictional story based on a real political hypothesis. For your information, I hold a degree in Defence and Strategic Studies from Deakin Uni and am well aware of current thinking.

I have been accused of partisanship and “religious” fervour. Perhaps an examination of my Hansards will allay that suspicion. I did give credit where it was due as I gave criticisms when they were due.

I don’t blindly follow the edicts of the US. 911 was hideous. So too was the slaughter of over 2500 non combatants in Gaza, so too were the genocidal massacres in Africa recently. So too was the maniacal bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

I place the blame for these deaths on the need for individuals and governments to ensure that their ideology is right. the insistence on this right by the use of force is to me unacceptable.

Given your dove-like reactions to the realities of warfare it seemed you wasted your studies in defence and strategies. That apart, congratulations on gaining a degree. Do we now have to address you as Professor Hargreaves or Doctor Johno?
Re Gaza, have you seen the repetitive news clip on ABC TV showing the Hamas leaders in Gaza declaring a victory in the war against Israel?. These people are delusional.

Just plain Johno is fine. As I posted once before – I don’t care about the leaders in that Gaza conflict, I just wish they’d both stop killing kids.

In terms of being dove-like, happy to wear that tag if it makes you happy. But 2 years in National Service from 1969-1971 and three years in the Army reserve can make one a bit like that.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA John Hargreaves Ex MLA 11:58 am 28 Aug 14

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

rosscoact said :

dungfungus said :

goody658 said :

Totally agree. Watch the sabre rattling get worse as his polls go lower.

His?
Who exactly are you referring to?.

I believe, from reading the OP, that contained the words “the current Federal government” in the 5th last para that goody658 is probably referring to the leader of that government. Just a guess.

If that is indeed the case then goody568 is wrong as the Abbott government has achieved its best two-party-preferred poll result since before its budget.
The latest Newspoll shows Labor ahead by 51 to 49 per cent.

Nuff said. Govt needs a scare campaign to improve its standing. It has been said before that if you want to keep yourself in governance, a war is really handy…

You mean to say smiling children holding severed heads isn’t scary enough for you?

it is very scary as was the picture of the naked Vietnamese girl running from her burning village, and covered in burning napalm. Let’s not get too selective here.

Matt Watts Matt Watts 11:56 am 28 Aug 14

It’s OK John – the ACT Human Rights Commissioner will save us!

dungfungus dungfungus 10:22 am 28 Aug 14

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

If you haven’t been watching the live presentation from the National Press Club by David Irvine, Director General of ASIO, then I suggest you follow it up and perhaps you could then give a re-assessment of your statement “we are being taken for a bit of a ride here”.
I look forward to your comments.

And you believed our non so secret super spy? It quacks like a duck

I’ll take that as you haven’t watched it yet.
Your federal Labor mates appointed David Irvine in 2009.
I guess groupthink was “we already have a Swan so why not a duck as well?”

dungfungus dungfungus 10:12 am 28 Aug 14

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

If you haven’t been watching the live presentation from the National Press Club by David Irvine, Director General of ASIO, then I suggest you follow it up and perhaps you could then give a re-assessment of your statement “we are being taken for a bit of a ride here”.
I look forward to your comments.

And you believed our non so secret super spy? It quacks like a duck

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

justin heywood said :

So to summarise then,

– troubles in the middle east that have incredible complexity and a historical background stretching back decades, if not centuries, can all be attributed to America. Simple really. Apparently things were just dandy before the Americans got involved.

– troubles in Australia; well we don’t have any real problems in Australia – it’s all a beat up – but if we do, then obviously they are the fault of the conservatives (who only just got into power).

– We have learned from several of John’s previous posts about the dangers of Catholicism, but any fear of Islam is fabricated and used to manipulate the ignorant.

It seems that all we need to do is see sense and vote for John’s party, and everything will be be OK.

The book the OP refers to is total fiction which isn’t declared.
I would suggest to John that he read some factual reference books such as “The Geopolitics of Emotion” by Dominique Moisi.
On the subject of Saddam having WMDs being a lie, I am surprised how everyone seems to have forgotten that Saddam was building a super artillery cannon that could fire shells (as big as a VW Beetle” to anywhere in the Middle East.
He also fired SCUD missiles with chemical warheads into Tel Aviv did he not?
Next thing Johno will be saying 9/11 didn’t happen.

The book by Crichton is a fictional story based on a real political hypothesis. For your information, I hold a degree in Defence and Strategic Studies from Deakin Uni and am well aware of current thinking.

I have been accused of partisanship and “religious” fervour. Perhaps an examination of my Hansards will allay that suspicion. I did give credit where it was due as I gave criticisms when they were due.

I don’t blindly follow the edicts of the US. 911 was hideous. So too was the slaughter of over 2500 non combatants in Gaza, so too were the genocidal massacres in Africa recently. So too was the maniacal bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

I place the blame for these deaths on the need for individuals and governments to ensure that their ideology is right. the insistence on this right by the use of force is to me unacceptable.

Given your dove-like reactions to the realities of warfare it seemed you wasted your studies in defence and strategies. That apart, congratulations on gaining a degree. Do we now have to address you as Professor Hargreaves or Doctor Johno?
Re Gaza, have you seen the repetitive news clip on ABC TV showing the Hamas leaders in Gaza declaring a victory in the war against Israel?. These people are delusional.

dungfungus dungfungus 9:57 am 28 Aug 14

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

rosscoact said :

dungfungus said :

goody658 said :

Totally agree. Watch the sabre rattling get worse as his polls go lower.

His?
Who exactly are you referring to?.

I believe, from reading the OP, that contained the words “the current Federal government” in the 5th last para that goody658 is probably referring to the leader of that government. Just a guess.

If that is indeed the case then goody568 is wrong as the Abbott government has achieved its best two-party-preferred poll result since before its budget.
The latest Newspoll shows Labor ahead by 51 to 49 per cent.

Nuff said. Govt needs a scare campaign to improve its standing. It has been said before that if you want to keep yourself in governance, a war is really handy…

You mean to say smiling children holding severed heads isn’t scary enough for you?

John Hargreaves Ex MLA John Hargreaves Ex MLA 9:41 am 28 Aug 14

Masquara said :

John Hargreaves how do you explain the “behead the infidels” posters that appeared (including being held by children) during the Sydney riots a couple of years ago? Those were “home grown”. Where was the “Cronulla” cause there? At the time I think it occurred to none of us that they meant those posters literally. And how do you explain the butchering of Lee Rigby in London? If that isn’t “home grown terrorism”, occurring in much the same way as we are risking here, what is? What do you think all those imams are doing spouting anti-semitism and refusing to meet with the PM? How do you explain the “terrorism training camps” undertaken in recent years around Braidwood? And by what measure do you call that young woman on Q&A stating that a child damaged through being used as a human shield by Hamas, is on the same plane as the beheading of James Foley, something that belongs in a civilised debate? Seriously, adjust your compass.

Selective examples and most with no real proof. How do you explain Agent Orange, napalm bombing of villages, the CIA executing the South Vietnam President at the start of the Vietnam War?

We can all come up with examples but I ask that people consider that perhaps both sides of the conflicts we now see unfolding and continuing are in fact wrong.

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