17 December 2008

The Streeton Dr intersection.

| johnboy
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One of our Weston Creek spies sent in the following rant. I asked them to paint me a picture so they kindly provided diagrams:

    The busiest southbound section of Streeton Dr, just north of Weston Creek town centre, has had a vehicle lane removed and replaced with a green bike lane.

    With two turn-in lanes as well, four lanes of traffic now are forced into one lane, while the bike lane is wide enough for a bus (as proved yesterday by the bus who didn\’t bother merging, instead just drove on straight and allowed cars past).

    In 13yrs living in the Creek, I cannot ever recall seeing a bike riding on the road in that particular section, because 1) there\’s too many cars, and 2) there\’s a bike path OFF the road immediately to the left.

    More stupidly, the bike lane vears left across the busy intersection with Namatjira Dr, misses the bike/footpath by 15m, and then ends. Cars get two lanes again.

    We all put up with narrower lanes so the bikes could ride on Hindmarsh Dr to Woden, but now cars have lost a lane all for 400m of bike lane – which wasn\’t needed – which comes from and goes to nowhere…

    Madness…

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This area is being remarked at the moment. The merged lane for traffic calming has remained but the bike lane has disappeared.

tylersmayhem9:31 am 22 Dec 08

A Monday morning commute to work though…no way. Concrete paths with cracks, joins, uneven bits…they’re just no good for fast riding.

Not to mention maniacs backing out of driveways doing abut 50! No thanks!

> They are all shared space. If a path is there, you should ride on it and not on the road.

What an ignorant thing to say. Have you ever ridden a bike? On a Sunday afternoon ride with my 11yo, sure…I’ll ride along that path, slowly. A Monday morning commute to work though…no way. Concrete paths with cracks, joins, uneven bits…they’re just no good for fast riding.

The usual anti-bike brigade seem to be ignoring the fact that this traffic change actually had very little to do with bikes. Read the thred.

Allowed, but whether its a good idea is another matter. I’ve been told to “ride on the road”. Can’t please some people.

‘The supposed “bike path” that runs parallel to the new bike lane is in fact a footpath, NOT a bike path.’

Wrong. In Canberra, you are allowed to ride on footpaths. Thus, ergo, they are all considered bike paths in a sense, just as official bike paths are also for pedestrians They are all shared space. If a path is there, you should ride on it and not on the road.

Further, if there is an existing path adjacent to the road they have just stupidly modified, those who thought this was a good idea have even more rocks in their heads than I first thought!

I think Aronde and others face an impossible task convincing the motor-mouths of the unfairness and impracticality of bicycle registration, for two reasons.

1. They genuinely lack the intellectual capacity to understand the argument, and no matter how painstakingly you present the facts, how logically the arguments are made, or how much evidence you present or how overwhelming that evidence is, it will never penetrate past their unbelievable levels of complete and utter STUPIDITY. I have tried many occasions and you are just wasting your time.

2. Even if I were wrong on the first point, it would make no difference. These people are not motivated by road safety concerns, economic considerations or justice. Their desire for bicycle registration is motivated entirely by hatred and envy, and even if they did fully understand the arguements, (which they don’t!), they would still be insisting on bicycle registration for no other reason than to impose costs and inconvenience onto cyclists just for the spite of it.

Luckily, due to the stupidity mentioned above, they will never be in a position to do any more than rant on website forums- the smart people, those who cycle or support cycling, will stay in power and bicycle registration will never be implemented.

I had better stop now- some of them can read.

tylersmayhem12:22 pm 19 Dec 08

@astrosapien

I’ve enjoyed your passionate rants – and while I am also getting quite tired of this roundabout, I have a few last comment. I’ll dot point them so hopefully you can understand:

* I fail to understand how you deem pay carparks and public buses as the same “public facilities” as public schooling and playgrounds. Please help me understand.

* I still don’t see your point if cyclists pay to insure, register and licence one or more vehicles, but don’t use them while cycling isn’t some kind of middle ground.

* If you believe that registration and licensing of motor vehicles alone pay for roads then you need your head seriously read.

* I am all for “fair and equal” use of the roads – and I as a cyclist would be more than happy to pay a nominal fee for “registration”, if it did indeed mean that there would be less agro from motorists. But frankly, if we started paying $20 – 50 per year, the same motorists would bitch and moan that it’s not enough to cover the cost of the paths we are riding on blah blah blah – and round we’d keep going.

* Please find another country, or indeed city in the World that requires registration of cycles and please post it on here. I’ve travelled extensively and never heard of it. But typically, it’s a handful of seemingly moronic drivers in little old Canberra who are demanding it – go figure! Some of us really are insulated aren’t we?

* Please also define how the administration of this yearly fee will actually be financially feasible.

If I’ve still failed to answer any of your questions or “hypotheticals”, and I’ll be more than happy to do so.

Astrosapien I am happy to agree to disagree for the reasons I and others have outlined. At the end of the day though the whole discussion is probably moot because no government is ever going to register bicycles in this day and age of ‘carbon reduction schemes’ , ’emission trading schemes’ and the like.

Hypothetically if as you say though it WERE possible to do then I as a registered bike rider would demand MORE from my government re bicycle infrastructure. Canberra does not even come close to what happens overseas. I would probably start by wanting one of these on Northbourne Ave, Belconnen Way etc – http://vimeo.com/1910758?pg=embed&sec=1910758

Astrosapien,

I’ve explained why I don’t think it would work, how about you come up with reasons why it would work, how it would be implemented, policed and a figure you think would be appropriate for bicycle registration.

It is impractical and political suicide no matter which way you look at it.

Clown Killer10:38 am 19 Dec 08

… the process is not made any easier when people insist on shooting ideas down as “stupid”. That doesn’t encourage healthy discussion and only serves to antagonize…

I’m certainly not shooting any ideas down buddy, I’m simply pointing out the facts. It would be different if the topic had never been debated before, if goverment representatives, policy makers and regulatory authorities had never applied themselves to the debate. This people are increadibly switched on, they’re also extremely intelligent – we know this, because without exception there’s not a jurisdicytion in the country thant thinks registration for bicycles is a smart idea – and the opposite of smart is … stupid.

OK…Just a few questions on the fair and equal system and a few of my thoughts.

Astrosapien said

astrosapien said :

…any system that requires a majority of a resources users to pay for use and not others is NOT a fair and equal. It doesn’t matter how you try and explain it off… It’s not fair and equal…

dr.evil comment – Would everyone that has a bicycle be expected to pay bicyle registration for each bike they have? We have about 8 bikes – my fanmily (5 of us) have a bike each and I like riding. Would we expect to pay rego for a 2 year old’s bike? Do you have any bicycles?

Astrosapien also said

astrosapien said :

…So, if you’re not prepared to participate in a system fairly and equally, is it any surprise that you’re not being treated fairly and equally…

dr.evil comment – I ride a bike and I use paths, roads, fire trails. All different systems and I participate fairly and equally in everyone one of these systems. For example, on the road I behave just like any other road user. I meet the all current requirements/laws for the privilege of using the road. I obey the rules of the road and am aware of other users.

Astrosapien also also said

astrosapien said :

…do you think acting like you deserve to be treated any differently or specially to others just because you own two cars and a bike is really going to earn the respect and understanding of the drivers out there…?…

dr.evil comment – I think most cyclists don’t want to be treated any differently or specially to others regardless of the situation. I think they want to be treated as legitimate road users just like every other road vehicle/user.

Glad to hear your thoughts…

I agree Justbands, but as tiresome as it may be it would be worse not to discuss it all. It is plain and obvious that people feel passionately about it on both sides of the argument, but there is not much in the way of forums for the community at large to debate it. As good as RiotACT is, it isn’t sufficient and not necessarily indicitive of community feelings on the whole…

Having said that, the process is not made any easier when people insist on shooting ideas down as “stupid”. That doesn’t encourage healthy discussion and only serves to antagonize…

The debate needs to be had otherwise elements of the community are going to continue to be at loggerheads…

These arguments are getting very tiresome.

Anyway…just to add a little more fact into this story: The supposed “bike path” that runs parallel to the new bike lane is in fact a footpath, NOT a bike path.

So would you have people fined for riding an unregistered bike?

Clown Killer, if that is indeed your real name,

Just because it hasn’t been implemented yet does not mean that it should be written off as being a “stupid idea”.

In the example of seat belts: Seat belts were legislated to be included with all cars in Australia by the late 1960s. It wasn’t until the early 1980s that the entirety of Australia ended up with laws making the wearing of those seat belts compulsory (however some states did start in the late 1970s).

I acknowledge that you’ve all made your “points” regarding why you think registration shouldn’t go ahead. BUT, hypothetically,if there WERE a way that it would be cost effective and the money raised via registration did actually go towards bike path maintenance etc, would you still be opposed to it?

I just want to know if you’re coming up with your reasons because you honestly don’t think it would work, or if you are against it on principle and are just making up bull$#!+ excuses…

Interesting to note that none of the other questions that I asked in my earlier posts still haven’t been answered yet, too… It seems you’re all happy to copy and paste your ideas from post to post but noone has actually been able to provide an adequate answer to some of the other questions…

Clown Killer8:24 am 19 Dec 08

Astrosapien, I’ll type this slowly so it’ll be easier for you to understand.

If registration for bicycles was such a brilliant idea, with all the self evident benefits that supposedly come with it, then just perhaps, maybe someone, somewhere, might have done it? It’s not like it’d be hard.

Like you say, once upon a time we weren’t required to wear seat belts in cars or helmets on motor bikes but when we looked at the facts it was a pretty simple decision. Likewise, despite the conga-line of rocket surgeons who line up to point out all the reasons why we should require registration for bicycles, when we consider the facts the decision is obvious.

In fact thinking about it, if car rego doesn’t cover the costs of maintaining the roads, my riding to work instead of driving a car, thus causing less damage to the road, therefore saving the government money, I should be getting paid to ride a bike to work.

Brilliant !

If all you car drivers just want to save the admin costs and send me the cash….

I see aronde is thinking along similar lines.

Isn’t rego scaled to the weight and subsequent damage a vehicle does to the road. Motorcycle costs less to register than a 5 ton truck. If that is the case then the rego for a bicycle would be around a 20c a year.

I’m sure a bureaucrat has thought about it and decided it too hard and not very practical.

If a bicycle needs to be registered then it would need to have a sticker of some sort to show it has been registered. Throw in admin costs to create such a sticker and that probably costs the government $50. To make it worth the governments while to do so it then costs $50 and 20 cents to register a bicyle.

Family of four with bicycles that the kids use to ride to school and the parents use a few times a month to go for a sunday ride and occasionally to the shops = $200 and 80 cents a year. You want to lose the next election, start charging people that kind of ticket to ride a bike.

Even if you only charge a token fee of $10 a year, it becomes self defeating. I’d love to ride to the shops but the bike has no rego, I’ll drive instead. Car does more damage to road, government loses out and the admin costs outway the money the government gets from the registration.

I can’t see any system that works that actually makes money for the government and doesn’t lose them an election.

The use of a bike as means of transportation to and from work does save the government money. A bike does less damage to the road than a car.

astrosapien said :

I’d love to see the kind of business model that needs over a million dollars a year to receive registration payments.

I will try to keep this simple. The costs would be immense and require a lot more then the people currently sitting in canberra connect. All bikes would need some sort of registration plate or decal to ensure that the fee paid is matched up to the right bicycle. There is then the cost of enforcement which would need to be done to ensure that people have some ‘incentive’ to pay the fee plus the cost of setting up a billing system which could need to cope with thousands of bicycles, people changing addresses, people changing bicycles half way through the registration year (do we need to submit a change of ownership form for instance and if I sell my bicycle do I get my registration fee back pro rata?). It would just be an administrative nightmare for no benefit except perhaps to make the bicycle hating people feel good about the fact that bicycle riders are making their ‘contribution’. Hey maybe we should do it for that reason alone – then we would not have to read the car vs bike wars on Riot every few weeks!

aronde said :

astrosapien said :

So let me get this straight… You think bicycle riders should be exempt from paying a contribution because registration doesn’t cover the full cost. By that reasoning motorists shouldn’t have to pay registration fees either.

This isn’t a matter of whether or not the registration fees cover the full cost or not. Motorists pay a contribution and it would be reasonable to expect bicyclists too…

I believe the argument is the administrative cost of registering bicycles and enforcing a registration scheme would not be covered by the actual registration fee. ie charge people $20 raise say a million dollars but spend more then that collecting it therefore NO money is ‘contributed’ for bicycle lanes or whatever. There is no suggestion that the cost of collecting car registration exceeds the amount of money collected therefore car registration fees do make a ‘contribution’ to roads, insurance costs etc.

In short registering bicycles would result in LESS overall money available to government therefore it should not be done on financial reasons alone.

I’d love to see the kind of business model that needs over a million dollars a year to receive registration payments.

It could quite easily be implemented into the Canberra Connect framework. There are already people working there with salaries etc that have already been budgeted. Yes there would be an initial outlay to have it integrated into the system, but once it is in there it would be no different than paying your rates or registration on something else…

Clown Killer said :

There’s a fairly simple test to see whether or not requiring bicycles to be registered the same as cars makes sense. Simply ask yourself the question – Does a requirement already exist for bicycles to be registered? If the answer is no, then its a stupid idea.

Wow…

That was a really dumb thing to say…

So did you think making it compulsory to wear seatbelts in cars and wearing safety helmets on a motorcycle (or bicycle for that matter)were “stupid ideas” when they were implemented too? I mean, once upon a time there was no requirement to use them…

Clown Killer6:26 am 19 Dec 08

There’s a fairly simple test to see whether or not requiring bicycles to be registered the same as cars makes sense. Simply ask yourself the question – Does a requirement already exist for bicycles to be registered? If the answer is no, then its a stupid idea.

astrosapien said :

So let me get this straight… You think bicycle riders should be exempt from paying a contribution because registration doesn’t cover the full cost. By that reasoning motorists shouldn’t have to pay registration fees either.

This isn’t a matter of whether or not the registration fees cover the full cost or not. Motorists pay a contribution and it would be reasonable to expect bicyclists too…

I believe the argument is the administrative cost of registering bicycles and enforcing a registration scheme would not be covered by the actual registration fee. ie charge people $20 raise say a million dollars but spend more then that collecting it therefore NO money is ‘contributed’ for bicycle lanes or whatever. There is no suggestion that the cost of collecting car registration exceeds the amount of money collected therefore car registration fees do make a ‘contribution’ to roads, insurance costs etc.

In short registering bicycles would result in LESS overall money available to government therefore it should not be done on financial reasons alone.

Bungle said :

But, as said on previous posts – registration in Canberra doesn’t cover the full cost of roads. Other taxes are used to cover the costs – including GST you’d pay on a bike. If you had to pay a toll to drive on the road, then maybe you could have a point.

How about they register pedestrians to walk across your precious roads. If they’re not registered then run them over.

The cost of the administration of registering bikes would be huge – more than the $20.

and finally, the cops have a hard enough time enforcing the registration of cars on the road, let alone bicycles.

I also noticed that you steered well clear of the “fair and equal treatment” argument…

How interesting…

Bungle said :

But, as said on previous posts – registration in Canberra doesn’t cover the full cost of roads. Other taxes are used to cover the costs – including GST you’d pay on a bike. If you had to pay a toll to drive on the road, then maybe you could have a point.

How about they register pedestrians to walk across your precious roads. If they’re not registered then run them over.

The cost of the administration of registering bikes would be huge – more than the $20.

and finally, the cops have a hard enough time enforcing the registration of cars on the road, let alone bicycles.

So let me get this straight… You think bicycle riders should be exempt from paying a contribution because registration doesn’t cover the full cost. By that reasoning motorists shouldn’t have to pay registration fees either.

This isn’t a matter of whether or not the registration fees cover the full cost or not. Motorists pay a contribution and it would be reasonable to expect bicyclists too…

As for the GST comment… Wouldn’t it be lovely if all of the services we receive in the community could be paid by GST. Pity they aren’t… GST goes Federal first and is then divvied back into the states and territories. So, really, the GST on your bike is more than likely paying for a hospital bed in NSW.

And again, if you wanted to make that argument across the board, how far do you think the roads would get if it relied only on the GST made by the sales of cars with no further registration fees being charged.

You seem to have no problems with coming up with ridiculous reasons as to why you shouldn’t pay fees where motorists do… What if we flipped it over a bit. Can you give any good reason as to why a motorist should be expected to pay a registration fee where bicyclists don’t.

As far as you’re concerned our registration doesn’t cover the full costs of road improvements and maintenance, and our GST seems to be sufficient… So why would you insist that motorists pay up and not other road users…?

Coming home along Streeton Dr this arvo in the rain, the car in front used the lovely new green “car exit lane” all the way to the Namatjira Dr left turn to Coolo Court. The big problem is that it’s too damn wide – it’s the same width as the single car lane to its right!

I’m a cyclist and support on-road lanes – but for goodness sake do them properly, not this half arsed crap. If Roads ACT want to fix that appalling T-bone intersection they don’t need to fire cyclists into the mix. I don’t want more traffic lights but the traffic volume will increase as the expanded shopping centre and Molonglo come on line. Maybe… another roundabout? Hang on, they somehow cost even more than lights. F*ck it, the election’s over, there’s a bucket of $80/metre green paint left over, go out there guys and do a half arsed job… It’ll slow the cars down won’t it? Sigh.

I’ve been seeing cars with no plates lately, about 1 a month.
Priorities.

Another new one on Athllon Drive, between the new roundabout at Scollay street and the Anketell street roundabout – brand spanking new bike lane with a rather large island between the lane and the road, which takes up a fair wack of the road and forces cars to bank right somewhat unexpectedly. Lots of traffic on this road as it ferries people to the Hyperdome. But I have never once seen a cyclist there.

But, as said on previous posts – registration in Canberra doesn’t cover the full cost of roads. Other taxes are used to cover the costs – including GST you’d pay on a bike. If you had to pay a toll to drive on the road, then maybe you could have a point.

How about they register pedestrians to walk across your precious roads. If they’re not registered then run them over.

The cost of the administration of registering bikes would be huge – more than the $20.

and finally, the cops have a hard enough time enforcing the registration of cars on the road, let alone bicycles.

TylersMayhem:

Your argument that because there are many services provided to the community and that because you own two cars but can’t use them at the same time being a reasonable reason for not having to pay registration fees for your bike is completely flawed.

For starters, just because you own two cars but can’t “physically drive them both at once” doesn’t mean that you would let the registration on one or the other lapse. Both cars still need to be registered. And more importantly, there is nothing stating that having two cars registered automatically grants you an exemption from contributing to other services in town.

But the silliest thing that you had to say was the bit about how there are many services provided to the community that we should just let certain members of the community go without contributing towards them… By your reckoning noone should have to pay for bus rides or parking in the city…

Fact of the matter is that while there are some services that are provided to the community and people aren’t expected to pay for them, there are plenty of services that are provided where the community IS expected to pay. Parking is one… Buses are another…

And ROADS are one… People who use the roads pay for the privilege to use them. Everyone except bicycle riders.

You, and a few others, have gone on and on about how you want to be treated fairly and equally on the Capital’s roads. FAIRLY and EQUALLY.

TylersMayhem, any system that requires a majority of a resources users to pay for use and not others is NOT a fair and equal. It doesn’t matter how you try and explain it off… It’s not fair and equal.

I’ve mentioned on another thread similar to this that a reasonable and proportionate registration cost fee of $20 would still contribute 1,600,000. So what, you say? That won’t pay for admin costs of the people to run it.

BUT IT’S A CONTRIBUTION NONE THE LESS!!!

So, if you’re not prepared to participate in a system fairly and equally, is it any surprise that you’re not being treated fairly and equally.

Now, I don’t condone the irresponsible behaviour on the roads from EITHER side (and there are some bicycle riders that are just as bad as drivers…). The roads are far too dangerous as they are already to allow these reckless actions to continue. But in saying that, do you think acting like you deserve to be treated any differently or specially to others just because you own two cars and a bike is really going to earn the respect and understanding of the drivers out there…?

Didn’t think so…

See you all again for part 57 of this saga in a few weeks time – same place, same channel!!

To answer the above question about the dragway- err I mean motorist party’s position on cycle lanes- they went to the election with a a stated policy of removing them completely. A major factor in their failure to come even close to winning a seat.

And the two biggest critics of cycle lanes in the Assembly- Pratt and Burke- were both kicked out in favour of hopefully more intelligent representatives from their party.

The current govt has gone to the election with it’s cycle lane policy clearly stated on 3 seperate occasions now- as have the Greens. What part of democracy don’t you ignorant whingers get?

Holden Caulfield4:51 pm 18 Dec 08

tylersmayhem said :

…I suspect you are one of the c**ks who think it’s fine to tear up behind cyclists who are in between cycle lanes which haven’t been finished, doing 80, then honk your horn from about 2 meter behind while yelling out the window – or perhaps one of those yelling at me to get of the road while I’m riding in a cycle lane anyway. then again, maybe you’re not…

Chill out, I’m not.

I’m just someone who likes winding up people on teh interwebz.

Looks like it was nothing but net with my last post, haha.

tylersmayhem4:07 pm 18 Dec 08

So cyclists don’t like using the roads because they reckon cars don’t give them enough respect, and they don’t like using bike paths because there’s pedestrians getting in their way.

Read it whichever way you like Holden – better yet, just try commuting on a bike for a few days, and you might get to experience the ridiculous amount of crap from a handful of motorists.

I didn’t understand the only reason for not wanting to use paths as pedestrians, rather than the mindless planning of routes, lack of signage (I’ll show you a map, and you try to work out the right way to go), and the disrepair of the paths.

So…please continue taking it what suits you, and ignoring other facts to build your own picture. I suspect you are one of the c**ks who think it’s fine to tear up behind cyclists who are in between cycle lanes which haven’t been finished, doing 80, then honk your horn from about 2 meter behind while yelling out the window – or perhaps one of those yelling at me to get of the road while I’m riding in a cycle lane anyway. then again, maybe you’re not.

I really worry about some people mindsets.

Holden Caulfield3:58 pm 18 Dec 08

Footloose said :

Right now I haven’t read all the posts yet; time is short but here’s what I know.

I was about to post a story on this last Friday but decided to contact relevant gov authorities in a quest to be informed first.
I was surprised at how helpful both media/roadworks personal have been on this topic.
After expressing my concerns to the media/PR people, I received a phone call from the project manager who attentively listened to my concerns.
Having lived on this road for 25 years, I thought I was just as good a source as anyone else to provide comment on the new arrangements. My immediate concern was that the volume and speed of traffic would not adjust easily to the new form-one-lane sitch, particularly with the aterial feeding roads all merging within the same 100 metres.
Traffic backing up along Namitjira Drive was also a worry. I was ready to flame them also about the bike lane because, as others have said, there is rarely a bike to be seen heading south on Streeton Drive.
The response was simply this:
The area is an accident black spot and as such they have taken temporary measures to cull the number of accidents in the area. Funding is low. Basically, they were given a bucket of paint and told to do their best.
From what I understand, the bike lane solution will be in place until they receive funding for traffic lights at the Namitjira/Streeton Drive intersection.
I fail to see why we cant afford traffic lights for Weston Creek but hey, lets throw a lazy 2 million at paving in Civic…grrrr.

Wow, that has to be the lamest reason ever to justify the action taken.

Holden Caulfield3:56 pm 18 Dec 08

So cyclists don’t like using the roads because they reckon cars don’t give them enough respect, and they don’t like using bike paths because there’s pedestrians getting in their way.

Hmm. There’s a pattern forming here. :p

I’m glad someone actually took the time to get the facts in regards to these road changes…thanks Footloose. I’ve been involved in an accident on that stretch of road myself. So everyone, you can stop your constant whinging & whining about the evil bicycles now, thanks.

tylersmayhem10:20 am 18 Dec 08

There seems to be unlimited funds for bike paths

If this is fact Cranky, I’m not sure how these “unlimited funds” have allowed for incomplete bike lanes across Canberra, substandard bike paths and complete lack of planning.

I’ll say what I have said in several other related posts: bike paths AND lanes are one of many facilities and services which are offered to the public in Canberra. We are bloody lucky to have so many facilities to suit a wide audience. If you don’t use bike facilities, you shouldn’t have your nose out of joint because of this. If I choose not to have children, it would never cross my mind to get upset and complain that taxes I pay go towards children’s playgrounds and public schooling, because I’ll never use the facilities.

hate how much the ACT Gumberment spend on making bicycle lanes for users who don’t pay road fees…..

There is always going to be one who down this path – while I feel like a broken record, I’ll say it again – I like most cyclists own a car. In fact, many I know own 2 cars. Rego, insurance and licensing is paid for these vehicles. When I and other cyclists are commuting by bike, it’s physically impossible to drive a car at the same time. Connect the dots from there if you can Madman.

I reckon that Canberra cyclists need to harden up and just ride on the roads without being mollycoddled with a plethora of on road bike lanes and the like.

Honestly mate – I’m more than happy to do that, but the unbelievable angst, and the apparent refusal to share the road by motorists does make it sketchy sometimes. If the cursory 1 in 100 drivers who just can’t handle seeing a cyclist on their road, and perceive it necessary to violently swerve out of the way and honk, could learn to drive with cyclists, cycle lanes would not be needed.

I’ll finish my rant agreeing with, that decisions made by the Government is exactly that. I as a cyclist might be a day-to-day reminder of decisions made by the government, but we are simply using facilities provided to us. We are bystanders in this situation, and it would be nice to think that those angry motorists out there won’t take out their aggression on us.

che, you asked how many seats the AMP picked up. What is their policy on bike lanes on roads? I couldn’t see anything specifically on their site.

I reckon any party that went to the next election with a policy of “abolishing every single bike lane in Canberra” would have to do OK.

Clown Killer6:22 am 18 Dec 08

Having had a closer look at the road works along Cotter Road this morning on the way to work, I’d be prepared to wager that there’ll soon be a bike lane all along that stretch of road probably starting at the turn off from Adelaide Ave. and going all the way through to Weston Creek. The Streeton Drive leg probably just got done early as there was no need to re-work the road like they’ve had to do in other places.

“Cyclists are innocent bystanders in all of this”
I agree. The cycle lane is all about slowing the traffic up and nothing to do with actual bikers wants/needs, though Im sure the Pedal Powerheads will be claiming a victory somewhere 😉
I’ve had a number of nasty incidents on Streeton Drive with trucks speeding, tailgating and general bad roadsmanship. I’m OK if things slow down a little bit to make it safer for drivers, cyclists and ‘the children’.

How many seats did the motorist party pick up at the last ACT election?

Footloose: I was guessing traffic engineering to encourage people to use more of the Parkway rather than rat-running Streeton Drive. Reducing the traffic reduces the problems. Cyclists are innocent bystanders in all of this.

Ok, not ever having to ride or drive to that particular stretch of road… except perhaps once in a bluemoon when I leave ‘real’ Canberra 😛

I kind of agree with the OP. I’m a cyclist/MTBer and a commuter too. I also drive a car.

When one wants to ride fast on bitumen, the smoother the surface the better. Non-chip-seal roads (Northbourne) are quite nice to ride on and actually help you get to where you want to go faster. Canberra’s bike paths vary, some are nice and smooth others are horridly bumpy and require maintainence.

However, when a bike lane is built on a stretch of road that has no other bike lanes on it, for 400m… seems completely stupid. Sure, if the bike lane on the road went the whole way along Streeton Drive, well that’s another debate. But 400m??? Although I disagree about the ‘green’ lane concept of cars giving way when they turn, it would have made more sense to pour the money into upgrading/maintaing that particular stretch of bike path and possibly putting the green lane where the off-road bike path is.

I am fully supportive of what they are doing: reducing the risk of a collision for entering traffic. So the cyclists have picked up a few metres of real estate. SO what, I ask!

I grew up in Sydney where bike paths are something to dream about. We rode our bikes pretty much everywhere, commuting to school and later work as well as for fun. I reckon that Canberrra cyclists need to harden up and just ride on the roads without being mollycoddled with a plethora of on road bike lanes and the like. I’ve always ridden on the roads in Canberra without any bother and no motorist has ever made a fuss about sharing the road with me. However where vehicle lanes have been removed to make way for onroad cycle lanes I do feel the tide of motorist opinion turning against us cyclists. If motorists get upset at losing a lane for cyclists on Streeton drive then I can well understand their frustration. It is another poorly thought out on road cycle lane.

Right now I haven’t read all the posts yet; time is short but here’s what I know.

I was about to post a story on this last Friday but decided to contact relevant gov authorities in a quest to be informed first.
I was surprised at how helpful both media/roadworks personal have been on this topic.
After expressing my concerns to the media/PR people, I received a phone call from the project manager who attentively listened to my concerns.
Having lived on this road for 25 years, I thought I was just as good a source as anyone else to provide comment on the new arrangements. My immediate concern was that the volume and speed of traffic would not adjust easily to the new form-one-lane sitch, particularly with the aterial feeding roads all merging within the same 100 metres.
Traffic backing up along Namitjira Drive was also a worry. I was ready to flame them also about the bike lane because, as others have said, there is rarely a bike to be seen heading south on Streeton Drive.
The response was simply this:
The area is an accident black spot and as such they have taken temporary measures to cull the number of accidents in the area. Funding is low. Basically, they were given a bucket of paint and told to do their best.
From what I understand, the bike lane solution will be in place until they receive funding for traffic lights at the Namitjira/Streeton Drive intersection.
I fail to see why we cant afford traffic lights for Weston Creek but hey, lets throw a lazy 2 million at paving in Civic…grrrr.

Madman said :

ARGH!!!!!! I’m gonna blow!!!

Be sure to take pictures – I want to see the slideshow on RA.

Far out this blows my nose…

I hate how much the ACT Gumberment spend on making bicycle lanes for users who don’t pay road fees….. ARGH!!!!!! I’m gonna blow!!!

In the same area, on the section of Hindmarsh Drive between Streeton and Eucumbene, speed limit 80km/h and now a single lane there are right angle turns into several sidestreets. Bike lanes on the cheap without any concern for car drivers. They should do it right and provide turn lanes and until then drop the speed limit back in 60km/h.

There seems to be unlimited funds for bike paths, green lanes, bus bike racks, pushbike race circuits. Perhaps a small amount could be dedicated to driving a street sweeper type machine along the bike paths to remove the glass and rubbish which is aparently a major disincentive to their use.

I gather they are not as smooth as cyclists would prefer, but they are there, they have been paid for,use could be increased, and motorists would have less to bitch about.

Is this rocket science?

SheepGroper said :

Aren’t the green painted lanes shared spaces for both bicycles and motorised traffic, therefore cars will still be able to use that lane?

Lol.

Yeah, just like the cars ‘share’ the unmarked road with bikes.

tylersmayhem4:35 pm 17 Dec 08

Again, what would you suggest Grump?

tylersmayhem said :

well maintained? in canberra? don’t make me laugh.

You should try riding on a bikepath then Peterh – shocker!

true – it’s taken 20 or more years for some of the path around lake ginninderra to be patched and there’s still bits which really should be relaid as the edges have eroded significantly. That said, cost/benefit value of green bike lanes everywhere for a handful of users is moot – whatever your green or cycling background (and I used to ride to work 18 k each way at one time so it’s not like I’m not familiar with the issues of riding and road vs “bike” path

tylersmayhem4:09 pm 17 Dec 08

well maintained? in canberra? don’t make me laugh.

You should try riding on a bikepath then Peterh – shocker!

nomnomnom said :

The reason that most people with bikes ride on roads rather than bike paths is because roads are better maintained, so less lumps from tree roots and pot holes than bike paths, and because the bike paths are covered in broken glass which never gets cleaned up. Similarly, they tend to take rather round abour routes which make a difference when you’re riding it twice a day everyday!

well maintained?

in canberra?

don’t make me laugh.

potholes near my home have only just been repaired. they were repaired only after roads ACT were called many, many times. Over a six month period.

maybe if they were well maintained, it would be OK. but having a cyclist swerve around one into the “normal” lane, almost being hit by a driver who was merging into the lane, It’s a bit scary…

Aren’t the green painted lanes shared spaces for both bicycles and motorised traffic, therefore cars will still be able to use that lane?

tylersmayhem3:09 pm 17 Dec 08

Also you tend to get pedestrians meandering about the paths (ie. not sticking to the left, and wandering from side to side without notice) who get quite annoyed when a bike swisshes by at +40Kph.

Or particularly when they get hit when they panic and step right in front of you (regardless of warning bells from a distance etc).

Cameron said :

Is it not a bit redundant when there’s an off road bike path anyway?

Also you tend to get pedestrians meandering about the paths (ie. not sticking to the left, and wandering from side to side without notice) who get quite annoyed when a bike swisshes by at +40Kph.

tylersmayhem2:49 pm 17 Dec 08

That might be so, but in this particular instance the path follows the exact same course as the new cycle lane. Straight.

What would you suggest then Cameron. I suspect you’ve never tried commuting by cycle?

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy2:43 pm 17 Dec 08

Why can’t we just smooth the road shoulder a bit, and let the cyclists use that? In the rare instance that a car has to stop there, the cyclist can give way and ride around.

> For the area where they’ve put a bike lane in, the off road path seems to run right next to the road.

Point is, if you’re riding from one end of Streeton to say, Cotter Road…you think it’s ok to go from road, to bike path, to road, to bike path to get there? Me, I just stick to the road…mind you, from Cotter Road into the city, no problem, I stay on the bike path.

justbands said :

> That might be so, but in this particular instance the path follows the exact same course as the new cycle lane. Straight.

Follow that bike path from end to end though & it doesn’t go straight from one end of Streeton to the other. Having a straight section that lines up with the road does not make it “as good as the road”.

For the area where they’ve put a bike lane in, the off road path seems to run right next to the road.

> justbands , 37 ? Stirling College ? What year ?

No, I didn’t go to Stirling…I went to Phillip (for the music offerings they had). I did go to Weston Creek High though (now Stromlo) from 1984 – 1987, Fisher Primary (now a retirement home) before that.

They have been widening the road over the bridge over the parkway heading into adl avenue, perhaps they are going to continue it all the way to civic ?!

> That might be so, but in this particular instance the path follows the exact same course as the new cycle lane. Straight.

Follow that bike path from end to end though & it doesn’t go straight from one end of Streeton to the other. Having a straight section that lines up with the road does not make it “as good as the road”.

justbands , 37 ? Stirling College ? What year ?

justbands said :

> Is it not a bit redundant when there’s an off road bike path anyway?

Not at all. Bike paths are fine for recreational riding, often not so good for commuting though….the tend to wind all over the place & often don’t go where you need to go.

That might be so, but in this particular instance the path follows the exact same course as the new cycle lane. Straight.

tylersmayhem2:11 pm 17 Dec 08

think unused bike racks on buses) that pander to this lobbying.

2 post nutbag me again – while I don’t use the bike racks on buses, I have to say that I see them used quite a lot. And I think they are a good idea. Why do you think so poorly of them? Do you feel the same about other services and facilities that we have in Canberra for that matter – of just anything to do with cycling? Or is it the case that if there is a facility the YOU don’t use, then it’s a waste of time and money?

tylersmayhem2:08 pm 17 Dec 08

If you would read all of my comments Grump, you might see a little tidbit relating to the width of bike lanes. Oh yes, and the pointlessness of “on again, off again bike lanes”. Grab 5 minutes for a re-read.

> The lycra-Le Tour-wannabe-set are too good for bike paths. As if they’re going to sully their overly expensive equipment with suburban Malvern Star riders. :p

It’s all about speed & effeciency. I use bike paths when they’re going my way, otherwise I use the roads…even (shock! horror!) the bike lanes.

Oh…& I’m riding the Tour De France course in July. 🙂

Holden Caulfield2:00 pm 17 Dec 08

Cameron said :

Is it not a bit redundant when there’s an off road bike path anyway?

The lycra-Le Tour-wannabe-set are too good for bike paths. As if they’re going to sully their overly expensive equipment with suburban Malvern Star riders. :p

tylersmayhem said :

GOOD – about bloody time. It’s very risky business for both cyclists and motorists sharing road where there are “on again, off again” cycle lanes. It’s good they are finally completing the lane. Now hopefully they’ll do the same on the other side of the road heading back towards Belco. Thats the highest risk part of my commute each day.

I’m resisting as best I can to even reply to the bike lane next to bike path comment. God give me strength! 🙂

take as much time to gather strength as you need – there’s no bike lane there before that at all and as others have pointed out, what’s the point of a lane wide bike lane starting in the middle of nowhere and finisihing the same way – as this belco one is a work in progress, let’s see what they do then resume debate.

Posts #24 and #16 seem pretty good reasons for the new markings – it makes more sense to me than anything else does.

I also ike how these merged lanes on Streeton Dr. turn back into 2 lanes just before the lights at the Streeton/Hindmarsh intersection and then merge back into 1 lane after the lights.

I agree frontrow. That intersection was dangerous.

It was impossible to see oncoming traffic in the ‘inside’ lane unless you were in a high vehicle, but now there is a clear view of all southbound traffic.

It’s clearly a measure designed to make it easier to leave Cooleman Court via the Namatjira Drive exit. The bike lane just seems to be an afterthought when the lane merging made some extra space.

The same utter, utter, utter stupidity has just taken place on Launceston Street, Woden between Yamba Drive and Melrose Drive.

Those I’ve spoken to are generally in agreement with making cycling easier, but NOT on-road like this, and not at the expense of creating traffic bottlenecks.

This is madness. I know this is not the fault of individual cyclists; rather it is the result of mindless lobbying by a few of their spokespeople (spokespeople indeed!), and a stupid, stupid government (think unused bike racks on buses) that pander to this lobbying.

The end result is that I am getting to the point where, if given a vote, I would demand all cyclists get off the streets and onto the bikepaths. That would then swing the balance back the other way.

a121212 said :

It was said in the Australian that a cyclist who rides on the road in peak hour, is just as unhealthy as a pack a day smoker. This is caused by all the toxic fumes the cars give out!

That simply isn’t true, you made it up. You won’t get anywhere just telling fibs like that.

On the broader question about planning this seems to be a pretty bad example. This doesnt seem to be part of some larger plan and doesn’t look to have been well thought out.

The reason that most people with bikes ride on roads rather than bike paths is because roads are better maintained, so less lumps from tree roots and pot holes than bike paths, and because the bike paths are covered in broken glass which never gets cleaned up. Similarly, they tend to take rather round abour routes which make a difference when you’re riding it twice a day everyday!

tylersmayhem1:06 pm 17 Dec 08

@ a121212: dude, that must be the biggest bottom of barrel scrape I have ever heard off. Excuse me why I wipe my desk after snorting coffee all over the place from laughter. Please, go on and continue to “just putting” there pearls “out there”. Maybe you live in a different “Canberra”. I think you might be on a site related to the one in the ACT.

I came across this yesterday and thought WTF? – This on-road bike lane is unecessary because it meets no obvious requirement and will only confuse motorists. I cycle (a lot) and this lane could be part of my commute or regular jaunts to and from Stromlo – but most likely it will not because…

* The bike lane sort of starts in the middle of nowhere – how do I get on it?
* The bike lane ends in the middle of nowhere – I end up where? If it went up to Hindmarsh Dr. that could help.
* The bike lane appears just before the 2 car lanes merge at 80km/h into 1 – I don’t really want to be there too.
* Just after merging most of the traffic would look to take a left turn over the bike lane towards Weston/Cooleman Court – I’d be praying the driver knew I was on their left after they spent time concentrating on their right during the merging.
* The bike lane is quite wide and many drivers may simply use it as an exit lane for the upcoming left turn towards Weston/Cooleman Court – expect the unexpected.
* The well used bikepath from Cotter Rd. avoids all road traffic by going under Streeton Dr. and round the back of Cooleman Court towards Woden and beyond – this serves a purpose.
* My experience tells me many drivers will not be able to concentrate on all the aspects of this now extremely busy newly marked roadway – danger!

As a cyclist I cannot see how this new bike lane improves things and compared to traffic control around other on-road bike lanes it appears to be not well thought out and therefore dangerous.

Note: I have spent a bit of time typing this – I started typing back at post #3 and will now have to go and catch up.

Thats it. if cyclists aren’t going to use the cycle paths next to the road, then I am going to drive on them… Someone might as well use them.

> actually its not, it was said in the Australian that a cyclist who rides on the road in peak hour, is just as unhealthy as a pack a day smoker

In Canberra traffic? I doubt it.

Just going to put it our there,
Sure there are benifits riding bike. If anyone cyclist should know even though you are improving your fitness level, if you ride on roads close the the fumes that cars give out, surly its not so good for your health! actually its not, it was said in the Australian that a cyclist who rides on the road in peak hour, is just as unhealthy as a pack a day smoker. This is caused by all the toxic fumes the cars give out!

So why are you on the road.

V twin venom12:52 pm 17 Dec 08

Funny looking intersection but everyone seems to miss the point that this is an intersection with a long history of T-bone accidents. Changing the left lane to a bike lane has also slightly reduced the width of the right lane thus reducing travel speeds to lets say… 80kmh.It also has allowed the stop line for vehicles coming out of Namajiura Dr to be moved forward and now there is only one lane of traffic to cross.

IMHO the Government usually panders to the cycling community however in this instance I reckon they have used the bike lane as an traffic engineering device . It’s a brave cyclist that thinks that some green paint will protect them from a car, truck, bus or motorcycle that wants to turn left at this or any other intersection.

> I also ride a bike yet you would never catch me on a bike lane, I value my life to much and happily stick to the paths.
>I don’t get this. I use the bike lanes all the time…never had a problem at all.

You are lucky, In the past I have had a driver drive into the bike line to “scare” me and
then proceeded to honk at me. The crazy nut job! Also there is so much glass on the bike paths so I gave it up.

tylersmayhem12:51 pm 17 Dec 08

I must say I am surprised that an entire car lane was converted into a green lane. As cyclists, we only need a lane a metre or less wide. We have the luxury of wide lanes in this fine town – why not create a more narrow bike lane and then adjust the other to car lanes by the difference?

Regardless…bring on he new aggression, it seems inevitable 🙁

First up before I get accused of being anti bike….

I don’t own a car and bicyle is my main form of transportation.

What a stupid thing to do. This whole concept of putting bike lanes in Canberra onto roads is moronic, especially when it involves the loss of a car lane and even more ridiculous if there is already a bike path next to the road.

No doubt this cost a fortune and will be money that should have been spent fixing up the bike paths that most cyclists use.

This is one of the stupidest things ive seen (have to drive this road every day).
It causes an uneccessary bottleneck for no reason on one of the busiest roads in Weston Creek.
The result is either going to be a car accident at the merge or a dead cyclist.

> Why not build a new bike path next to it. Or widen the existing road a few metres.

I’m guessing $$$$$$$.

tylersmayhem12:33 pm 17 Dec 08

So here we go – it will now be us bike riders fault about Gov decisions, and we will bare the brunt of angry motorists frustrations. I foresee another hot cup of coffee thrown at me with no provocation in the coming year.

they’re about to do the same idiotic thing on Ginninderra Drive between Coulter drive and William Webb drive where it crosses the dam on the lake.

GOOD – about bloody time. It’s very risky business for both cyclists and motorists sharing road where there are “on again, off again” cycle lanes. It’s good they are finally completing the lane. Now hopefully they’ll do the same on the other side of the road heading back towards Belco. Thats the highest risk part of my commute each day.

I’m resisting as best I can to even reply to the bike lane next to bike path comment. God give me strength! 🙂

> I also ride a bike yet you would never catch me on a bike lane, I value my life to much and happily stick to the paths.

I don’t get this. I use the bike lanes all the time…never had a problem at all.

> Is it not a bit redundant when there’s an off road bike path anyway?

Not at all. Bike paths are fine for recreational riding, often not so good for commuting though….the tend to wind all over the place & often don’t go where you need to go.

I’m rather annoyed at this new bike lane.The 2 lanes were great with the left lane turning into coolaman court and the right lane free for ongoing drivers. Now everyone is on the brakes and there is no steady flow of traffic. I also ride a bike yet you would never catch me on a bike lane, I value my life to much and happily stick to the paths.

A bike path that starts mysteriously, goes for 500 metres, and then ends just as mysteriously.

No lack of these in Canberra. There needs to be some serious research done into making the bike paths and bike lanes actually meet up. Southern Cross Drive is particularly bad.

Is it not a bit redundant when there’s an off road bike path anyway?

> In 13yrs living in the Creek, I cannot ever recall seeing a bike riding on the road in that particular section, because 1) there\’s too many cars, and 2) there\’s a bike path OFF the road immediately to the left.

Hmmmm…well, in my 37 years living in the Creek (5 of them ON Streeton Drive) I’ve seen plebnty of bikes on that section of road…in fact, I see bikes there every day, often I’m one of them. So you musn’t be very observant is all I can say.

That said, this particular change does seem odd, to say the least. It creates more problems than it solves from what I’ve witnessed so far. I’m a keen rider & am usually all for measures to make my commute better, but this one doesn’t work in my opinion. Still, I’ll live with it. It’s really not that big a deal.

they’re about to do the same idiotic thing on Ginninderra Drive between Coulter drive and William Webb drive where it crosses the dam on the lake.

3 lanes across the dam has worked well for 20 years – from 4 lanes as you approach the dam and where traffic filters in from William Slim Drive and off to William Webb into mckellar. From Mckellar traffic filters in at the lights onto 3 lanes over the dam where traffic then sorts itself into one lane going left on to Coulter and 2 going further west into Belconnen.

Now some bright has come on the scene and right enxt to the bike path crossing the lake, the preliminary paint dots are down to create a lane wide bike track on the road and have only 2 car lanes and a small slip lane up at the coulter drive lights to go left – And nothing was broken before! It all worked. And thers a perfefctly good bike path right beside the road. Bikes that used the road had no problems before and they are a handful at peak time, IF you see someone.

Are the inmates running the sanitarium?? Who’s in charge of these morons?

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Clown Killer12:07 pm 17 Dec 08

OK I waithed like five minutes fo rthe tidal wave of anti-bike venom to be unleashed. Must be a slow morning.

I fail to see the problem here. One lane for cars for about 500m. Big deal.

As far as the whole bikes on the road thing goes, it’s just another tired agrgument that will allow the pro and anti bike crown wear their ignorance and stupidity on their sleeve for a day. The reality is, that bikes are just another vehicle using the road. If you drive a car and you genuinely believe that you’re going to have trouble mixing it up with bikes on the road then the only course of action open to you is to hand in your license and sell your car, because you’re not competent enough to drive safely. If you ride a bike and can’t do it sensibly and legally then you’re probably going to end up donating some of your organs.

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