11 April 2013

Toot toot! High speed rail rides again

| johnboy
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shinkansen

The ABC has inside running on the oft discussed high speed rail link.

A high-speed rail link along Australia’s east coast would not be completed until at least 2053 and would cost $114 billion to build, according to a report to be released today.

The Federal Government’s final report says the rail link between Brisbane, Sydney, Canberra and Melbourne would require 1,700 kilometres of dedicated track and 144 kilometres of tunnelling.

A trip between Canberra and Sydney would take just over an hour, though trains would not begin running on the first section of track until 2030 at the earliest.

Federal Transport Minister Anthony Albanese has told AM the Government is serious about giving it further thought, and wants a public debate about the idea.

Off you go then.

[Photo by mdid CC BY 2.0]


UPDATE: Simon Sheikh is hailing this as a triumph of the Greens. Green MLA Shane Rattenbury is also joining in the applause.

FURTHER UPDATE: Our local Labor Members have jointly expressed their joys.

ANOTHER UPDATE: Late to the party the Bullet Trainers want it all brought forward.

One more update for the road: Simon and Katy have bestirred themselves to agree it’s a good thing we’re included. They also like the idea of the train station being in Civic.

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And those new fangled moving pictures…

I don’t get what’s so great about attaching a picture to buses and taxis ?

poetix said :

astrojax said :

FioBla said :

Only accepts coins.

gold [ones]

…and have we invented air travel yet..?

I believe that is a yes. Hot air balloons are all the rage these days.

Zeppelins. That’s what we need.

(Oh the humanity.)

And those new fangled moving pictures…

Ev’ry step you do leads to something new, man, I’m telling you it’s a lapazoo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kJWdUFzL0Y&feature=youtube_gdata_player

astrojax said :

FioBla said :

Only accepts coins.

gold [ones]

…and have we invented air travel yet..?

I believe that is a yes. Hot air balloons are all the rage these days.

Zeppelins. That’s what we need.

(Oh the humanity.)

FioBla said :

Only accepts coins.

gold [ones]

…and have we invented air travel yet..?

Where are the bullet train for Canberra people? I would’ve thought they’d have a comment or two to make on RA.

johnboy said :

Well they said that about Alice to Darwin rail until John Howard built it.

Indeed, and what a marvellous white elephant that’s turned out to be.

gooterz said :

….

I also bet that the cost includes maglev into Sydney central station. How much will it cost to the edge of the cities and then connect without outer suburbs stations.

…….If we planned it now and planned it to go into the centre of Sydney.. we could build a outer Sydney to outer Melbourne fast train for a few billion then later spend the billions extending it into the CBD’s.

Not having it completely direct and not having it into the centre of every city is great but its lightyears ahead of the options we have now…….

I was thinking the same thing. The rail could deviate in areas west of Sydney, Newcastle etc rather than going into the centres. Standard or light rail could then run elsewhere. In Canberra the rail could deviate near Dickson/Barton Hwy but I wonder how long it would be before others suggest Canberrans travel the extra distance to Goulburn/Yass to save even more money?

what about vacuum mag lev?
2km/s

Canberra to Sydney in 300 seconds.

The big issue with the latest report it that there is not much tolerance for bends and curves to avoid tunnelling. If you have a lightly longer route you save billions on tunnels.

I also bet that the cost includes maglev into Sydney central station. How much will it cost to the edge of the cities and then connect without outer suburbs stations.

The longer we wait the more tunnels we’ll need to tunnel under developments, and buy back land.

Adelaide–Darwin took 100 years to start and cost $1.2 billion in 2001.
1420km and it took 4 years.

If we planned it now and planned it to go into the centre of Sydney.. we could build a outer Sydney to outer Melbourne fast train for a few billion then later spend the billions extending it into the CBD’s.

Not having it completely direct and not having it into the centre of every city is great but its lightyears ahead of the options we have now.

It wont be that long until we’ve spent more money on reports and consultants than it would cost to build the thing.

We could probably combine it with a national DC power grid too save even more money and power

HiddenDragon10:20 pm 11 Apr 13

This will be exciting news for people being born about now, and their children and grandchildren – particularly if all the cheerful budget forecasts – for federal, state and territory governments – and the gloom and doom predictions about the costs of the demographic time bomb, prove to be entirely wrong.

Why aren’t Gunghalin residents getting their own dedicated high speed rail link?

poetix said :

So long as the engineers ensure that the buttresses are strong enough:

http://www.mcgonagall-online.org.uk/gems/the-tay-bridge-disaster

Is a buttress a female butt?

So long as the engineers ensure that the buttresses are strong enough:

http://www.mcgonagall-online.org.uk/gems/the-tay-bridge-disaster

tim_c said :

I’ve often thought they could at least upgrade the existing track to be standard speed which would be much cheaper than high-speed rail – the XPT is capable of cruising at around 160km/h if it’s on a decent track. Without traffic delays and the forest of uncoordinated traffic lights in each town, it would still be much faster than taking your car.

The main problem with the existing track is the steam-age alignment – all those twists, turns and grades mean that it doesn’t matter how much you upgrade the track itself, the XPT still isn’t going to be cruising at 160km/h on it. A straighter alignment is needed.

(I reckon you could do worse for a high speed rail link that run an elevated Shinkansen-style track down the median of the Hume Freeway/highway, presuming that meets safety standards).

Pork Hunt said :

shauno said :

Pork Hunt said :

shauno said :

The best way forward with this is to go with the French TGV SNCF they have already done the decaded worth of development so there is no need to go and re invent the wheel so to speak. All we need to do is build the tracks. And just think if we didn’t have this 300 billion gross debt hanging over our heads things like this could be much easily afforded. Its most probably the reason they have it spread over 45 years. Which is insane we could and should build this in 10 years.

When I become the benevolent dictator of this country, you shall be my transport minister and possibly the defence materiel minster.
Why can’t we buy the next generation of the French train or even the Japanese one? Buy a system off the shelf for Gawds sake and don’t be like Defence ffs.

Because if we do that it really will take 40 odd years to build. And the TGV isn’t old technology its been in continues development and you can forget about Maglevs. If labor decided on a Maglev it would be built by around the year 2250.

I think you have misunderstood. I am on your side here.
If we were to buy French or Japanese, then surely we would be getting the latest version of what they have and not some whimsical pie in the sky pos…

Yep Im with you now lol.

Pork Hunt said :

shauno said :

Pork Hunt said :

shauno said :

The best way forward with this is to go with the French TGV SNCF they have already done the decaded worth of development so there is no need to go and re invent the wheel so to speak. All we need to do is build the tracks. And just think if we didn’t have this 300 billion gross debt hanging over our heads things like this could be much easily afforded. Its most probably the reason they have it spread over 45 years. Which is insane we could and should build this in 10 years.

When I become the benevolent dictator of this country, you shall be my transport minister and possibly the defence materiel minster.
Why can’t we buy the next generation of the French train or even the Japanese one? Buy a system off the shelf for Gawds sake and don’t be like Defence ffs.

Because if we do that it really will take 40 odd years to build. And the TGV isn’t old technology its been in continues development and you can forget about Maglevs. If labor decided on a Maglev it would be built by around the year 2250.

I think you have misunderstood. I am on your side here.
If we were to buy French or Japanese, then surely we would be getting the latest version of what they have and not some whimsical pie in the sky pos…

We’ll be levitating before we get a Maglev.I think it would be awesome to have a TGV from Canberra-Sydney,bring it on real fast i say!

shauno said :

Pork Hunt said :

shauno said :

The best way forward with this is to go with the French TGV SNCF they have already done the decaded worth of development so there is no need to go and re invent the wheel so to speak. All we need to do is build the tracks. And just think if we didn’t have this 300 billion gross debt hanging over our heads things like this could be much easily afforded. Its most probably the reason they have it spread over 45 years. Which is insane we could and should build this in 10 years.

When I become the benevolent dictator of this country, you shall be my transport minister and possibly the defence materiel minster.
Why can’t we buy the next generation of the French train or even the Japanese one? Buy a system off the shelf for Gawds sake and don’t be like Defence ffs.

Because if we do that it really will take 40 odd years to build. And the TGV isn’t old technology its been in continues development and you can forget about Maglevs. If labor decided on a Maglev it would be built by around the year 2250.

I think you have misunderstood. I am on your side here.
If we were to buy French or Japanese, then surely we would be getting the latest version of what they have and not some whimsical pie in the sky pos…

Pork Hunt said :

shauno said :

The best way forward with this is to go with the French TGV SNCF they have already done the decaded worth of development so there is no need to go and re invent the wheel so to speak. All we need to do is build the tracks. And just think if we didn’t have this 300 billion gross debt hanging over our heads things like this could be much easily afforded. Its most probably the reason they have it spread over 45 years. Which is insane we could and should build this in 10 years.

When I become the benevolent dictator of this country, you shall be my transport minister and possibly the defence materiel minster.
Why can’t we buy the next generation of the French train or even the Japanese one? Buy a system off the shelf for Gawds sake and don’t be like Defence ffs.

Because if we do that it really will take 40 odd years to build. And the TGV isn’t old technology its been in continues development and you can forget about Maglevs. If labor decided on a Maglev it would be built by around the year 2250.

shauno said :

The best way forward with this is to go with the French TGV SNCF they have already done the decaded worth of development so there is no need to go and re invent the wheel so to speak. All we need to do is build the tracks. And just think if we didn’t have this 300 billion gross debt hanging over our heads things like this could be much easily afforded. Its most probably the reason they have it spread over 45 years. Which is insane we could and should build this in 10 years.

When I become the benevolent dictator of this country, you shall be my transport minister and possibly the defence materiel minster.
Why can’t we buy the next generation of the French train or even the Japanese one? Buy a system off the shelf for Gawds sake and don’t be like Defence ffs.

BlackChariot5:00 pm 11 Apr 13

This is ridiculous! 40+ years to put something into place that’s been in place in European and Asian countries for the last 20. How typical Australian! Environmental impact study here, viability study there, budget analysis this, political party that! Australia in general does not know how to do trains, amongst other things. That’s my rant!!

dtc said :

shauno said :

The best way forward with this is to go with the French TGV SNCF they have already done the decaded worth of development so there is no need to go and re invent the wheel so to speak. All we need to do is build the tracks. And just think if we didn’t have this 300 billion gross debt hanging over our heads things like this could be much easily afforded. Its most probably the reason they have it spread over 45 years. Which is insane we could and should build this in 10 years.

The Japanese and Chinese might beg to differ about the best fast train system…

But, yes – it would have been nice for Howard/Costello to have retained some of the money received from selling public assets and used it for infrastructure. That said, whether the train is the best use of that money who knows.

Clearly what we need is a fast train from Canberra to the beach. If we can get to Sydney in an hour, then the beach is well under 1/2 hr away.

Canberra is getting its own beach. I reckon that will be here before the speedy train
http://the-riotact.com/city-to-the-lake-a-more-glorious-dawn-awaits/98922

Only accepts coins.

How is that toot toot, light rail project going?

…or we will blow the dust off that report in 3 years just before the next election.

This $20 million report just proves the voting public are suckers.

Must be an election close by, this is as typical Pauline Hanson deciding to run when the vote gets close

oh goody I’ll be 80, so it will unlikely be any use to me.

should have been started years ago.

I can see the Labor version will have high speed all the way to the stations, but the Liberal version will have high speed up to a point and then the passengers will have to get out and push to get to the stations and pay for the privilege

tim_c said :

I’ve often thought they could at least upgrade the existing track to be standard speed which would be much cheaper than high-speed rail – the XPT is capable of cruising at around 160km/h if it’s on a decent track. Without traffic delays and the forest of uncoordinated traffic lights in each town, it would still be much faster than taking your car.

I hear you but the problems are obvious. It’s an old train on some very old track. Not sure if much has changed but it was a 5 hour trip the last time I took the train to Sydney, which tells me an absolutely massive amount of money would have to be thrown at it to get anywhere near the current driving time.

Depends where you live in Canberra and where you are going in Sydney – but I know I can be in Sydney in under 3 hours – and I usually need my car once I am there. For the train to be a serious option it needs to do the trip in 90 minutes max, in my opinion.

Between Canberra and Sydney makes so much sense… but it will never happen. Hell will freeze over, then Sydney will get a second airport, then we’ll see high speed rail the length of the East coast. In that order.

tim_c said :

I’ve often thought they could at least upgrade the existing track to be standard speed which would be much cheaper than high-speed rail – the XPT is capable of cruising at around 160km/h if it’s on a decent track. Without traffic delays and the forest of uncoordinated traffic lights in each town, it would still be much faster than taking your car.

Agreed. This is the only way we will ever make progress. We can’t afford high speed rail per capita (hence why it would take over 40 years and is continually bogged down in studies and consultation) and a medium speed rail line would at least be something and, as per JB, I’m guessing would be much better suited for freight. The problems for Canberra though would be that Melbourne-Sydney rail would need to run via Canberra for us to have access to regular services and we might end up out of step if high speed rail was eventually introduced elsewhere (eg Sydney to Newcastle).

dtc said :

shauno said :

The best way forward with this is to go with the French TGV SNCF they have already done the decaded worth of development so there is no need to go and re invent the wheel so to speak. All we need to do is build the tracks. And just think if we didn’t have this 300 billion gross debt hanging over our heads things like this could be much easily afforded. Its most probably the reason they have it spread over 45 years. Which is insane we could and should build this in 10 years.

The Japanese and Chinese might beg to differ about the best fast train system…

You beat me to it. The TGV is nice and works well for the relatively short distances they do in Europe, but I would think it is a bit out-dated now.

tim_c said :

I’ve often thought they could at least upgrade the existing track to be standard speed which would be much cheaper than high-speed rail – the XPT is capable of cruising at around 160km/h if it’s on a decent track. Without traffic delays and the forest of uncoordinated traffic lights in each town, it would still be much faster than taking your car.

Spot on.
This is the only way to go for a country like Australia with a relatively small population spread over a vast area. The rail corridors and infrastructure already exist all that is needed is for the tracks to banked and upgraded. No need for high maintenence electrification either. Affordable rail services like this are winning back customers all over the UK and Europe. TGV type railways are more about national prestige and they are not as comfortable as their supporters claim they are.

shauno said :

The best way forward with this is to go with the French TGV SNCF they have already done the decaded worth of development so there is no need to go and re invent the wheel so to speak. All we need to do is build the tracks. And just think if we didn’t have this 300 billion gross debt hanging over our heads things like this could be much easily afforded. Its most probably the reason they have it spread over 45 years. Which is insane we could and should build this in 10 years.

The Japanese and Chinese might beg to differ about the best fast train system…

But, yes – it would have been nice for Howard/Costello to have retained some of the money received from selling public assets and used it for infrastructure. That said, whether the train is the best use of that money who knows.

Clearly what we need is a fast train from Canberra to the beach. If we can get to Sydney in an hour, then the beach is well under 1/2 hr away.

dpm said :

$114billion which would apparently spread over ~40 years though…

Which is rather a long time, even for this scale of project. On the other hand, if they started with, say $1b a year, and for the first 20 years simply worked on slowly linking up a straightish right of way (and the associated bridges etc, then it might actually become a viable option to put a railway on it some time in the future.

I’ve often thought they could at least upgrade the existing track to be standard speed which would be much cheaper than high-speed rail – the XPT is capable of cruising at around 160km/h if it’s on a decent track. Without traffic delays and the forest of uncoordinated traffic lights in each town, it would still be much faster than taking your car.

Proper twin line electrified rail would be a beautiful thing too, and much better for freight.

But apparently we only want sexy rail.

The best way forward with this is to go with the French TGV SNCF they have already done the decaded worth of development so there is no need to go and re invent the wheel so to speak. All we need to do is build the tracks. And just think if we didn’t have this 300 billion gross debt hanging over our heads things like this could be much easily afforded. Its most probably the reason they have it spread over 45 years. Which is insane we could and should build this in 10 years.

Diggety said :

Innovation said :

I’m glad they are “serious” about giving more thought. More thought, more debate, more consultancy reports, but never any action……

Thankfully, our leaders tend to give things careful thought and debate before acting on a $114 billion project.

$114billion which would apparently spread over ~40 years though…

pierce said :

Tony Abbott and Malcolm Turnbull have in turn announced that a Liberal government would do it cheaper and sooner

http://www.flickr.com/photos/darkjedi/5139352284/

😀 Gold.

Innovation said :

I’m glad they are “serious” about giving more thought. More thought, more debate, more consultancy reports, but never any action……

Thankfully, our leaders tend to give things careful thought and debate before acting on a $114 billion project.

“Federal Transport Minister Anthony Albanese has told AM the Government is serious about giving it further thought, and wants a public debate about the idea.”

I’m glad they are “serious” about giving more thought. More thought, more debate, more consultancy reports, but never any action……

Can we now dump this ridiculous idea?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEZjzsnPhnw

pierce said :

Tony Abbott and Malcolm Turnbull have in turn announced that a Liberal government would do it cheaper and sooner

http://www.flickr.com/photos/darkjedi/5139352284/

The Greens will go for that as it is totally emission free.

Good to see a decent study, waaay too much speculation and dodgy data in the debate before.

Tony Abbott and Malcolm Turnbull have in turn announced that a Liberal government would do it cheaper and sooner

http://www.flickr.com/photos/darkjedi/5139352284/

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