19 April 2016

Total cat containment, yeah right!

| John Hargreaves
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cats cuddled on bed

I noted an article recently bagging out cats in the suburbs and calling for the ACT to be a total cat containment area. This article contained all the hyperbole of the notion of cats roaming en masse throughout the suburbs killing at random all the native wildlife. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Starting off my response to this stuff, I should say I agree that a couple of streets bordering nature reserves ought to be designated as cat containment areas but this is a reaction to the ignorance of cat owners rather than the killing nature of moggies.

I have had cats all my adult life. In fact, I have two now, one 16 years old and the other 16 months old (pictured above). I had one cat in Lyneham, Higgins, Farrer and Gowrie, with others joining the old girl before coming to Wanniassa. The old girl was way behind the (in my view, somewhat suss) kill rate of native animals and birds. When she was young, she brought home the odd sparrow and the odd mouse. But she never roamed more than our adjacent homes. Hopeless really but cute and a great companion.

The others had and have similar records, with the odd silvereye falling prey because it ventured along with its hundreds of mates into the trees in my yard, to commune with the numerous crimson rosellas, king parrots, eastern rosellas, not to mention the magpies and currawongs, galahs, pink and grey cockatoos, sparrows, indian mynahs, honeyeaters, and crested pigeons. They’re all really scared of our cats! Not!

The only disturbance I get is the commotion from the marauding non-sexed male roamer who comes into my yard and monsters my little mates. Irresponsible owners it has.

The issue is desexing the little blighters. There should be penalties, and confiscation, of cats found and not desexed. It is actually the law nowadays that all kittens, except those for whom breeding licences are issued, be desexed, I think at six weeks or so. So anyone not complying with the law, actually breaks it but the penalties are hardly greater than a smack with a wet lettuce.

My cats are, and always have been tattooed, desexed, vaccinated and microchipped. I do this as a protection for them as much as a responsible thing to do as a good citizen.

I give my little mates lots of attention, a good food and water supply and the run of the house with a cat door. In return, they patrol my yard, keeping the elephants and rhinos out (with good effect, I’ll tell you); they visit next door but don’t go further than the house across the road. They sleep most of the night because they have no reason to go roaming. The desexing of males and females neuters the need to have sex. I know this because they have a greater share of the bed than I do and they don’t like being disturbed when I move.

So the real issue is that we should be making people act responsibly when living with moggies and if they don’t, they lose the moggy and some dollars to boot.

I reckon that there aren’t too many legless lizards, endangered species of small marsupials and threatened species of birds around the Erindale shopping centre, in fact in Wanniassa at all. If they do exist, they are in the nature park across the busy Sulwood Drive. The further you go into Tuggeranong, the less likely you will encounter these animals and birds.

The term domestic shorthair (used to describe my two moggies) is predicated on the animals being, (wait for it!) – domesticated, they are a companion animal. It is only when they are neglected, abused, underfed, allowed to be sexually whole, that they become unmanageable. In other words it is our fault, not theirs.

In closing, for now, I remind readers that my 16-year-old, Andy, was the kitten to whom fireworks were strapped, set alight with kerosene and left to explode, before being rescued by my daughter. The real animals here were those young men who thought it funny to torture a kitten with fireworks.

Wanna know why I was behind the push to ban fireworks here? Oh, and… how about we concentrate a bit more on dogs?

You show me proof that a domestic cat put a child in hospital by mauling it, or brought down a kangaroo in an adjacent nature reserve, or a sheep in a paddock and I’ll say OK, don’t worry anymore about feral dogs, worry about domestic cats.

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Our two boys are such darlings and purr there little hearts out while sleeping at the base of the bed.

If the odd pigeon cannot get out of the way and get captured, well that is Darwinism at work.

Maya123 said :

How do you feel about birds pooing in your garden? They carry disease. Bird flu! Or how about the flying foxes dropping a ‘gift’ as they fly over or roast in your trees? This happens, and we have to live with it. It’s no good singling out just cats about this. I don’t have a cat, but cats use my garden. Instead of letting it upset me, I think positively about this. It’s free garden fertilizer, and at least they bury it, unlike many other creatures. The only way you are going to lock out nature is to build walls and a roof (especially that) over your garden.

FYI, dog and cat poo are much more likely to burn your plants than bird poo. And cat poo smells much worse.

Also, there’s a huge difference between wild animal behaviour and domestic. Wild natives, we have to put up with. Wild ferals, we kill.
We shouldn’t have to deal with roaming domestics.
For one thing, feral cats and foxes in my neighbourhood only come out at night. If it weren’t for domestic cats, I’d be safe to let my guinea pigs roam by day, and lock them in their hutch at night.
As it is, I can’t.

And John, you’re up on your high horse. I’d like to see a response to my earlier comment.

Domestic cats have attacked, and twice killed, my pets. In my yard. I know they’re domestic because I know the owners.

If your cats chase string or laser pointers, they also hunt. And being well fed won’t stop them.

Why is your self-entitlement more important than the safety of my pets?

John Hargreaves10:38 am 14 Apr 15

dungfungus said :

John Hargreaves said :

dungfungus said :

When you are relaxing with your cat in front of the TV while enjoying some wine, cheese and crackers does your cat get nervous? (about the crackers).

Actually no – but he does when noisy young people run down our street, squealing, whilst not on a leash. They no doubt bring back memories of those who strapped the fireworks to his underbelly and set him alight with kero.

But he does enjoy the peace and quiet of the long weekend now and I keep him by my side when the fireworks go off in November/December for the Tuggeranong Community Festival, which are set off by professionals not amateurs dealing with lethal explosives.

Still smarting over the banning of fireworks, eh? Time to move on.

How come you can ban fireworks successfully but banning drugs at AMC has been unsuccessful?

both have been banned through legislation and with fireworks, the community at large mostly respects the law. Drugs are another matter altogether but thanks for the red herring.

wildturkeycanoe7:25 am 14 Apr 15

Nightshade said :

Maya123 said :

YeahWhatever said :

Responsible cat owners keep their cats indoors. It takes a bit of effort to setup your home so that your indoor cats remain content. People that let them roam are just lazy, irresponsible and selfish.

No, they likely consider it cruel to imprison a living creature, as keeping birds in cages is cruel. If a cat is desexed they are likely to wander less (thinking mainly of the wandering tomcats here), and they will not add to the feral/stray population.

Maya, you are basically saying that cats are not a suitable pet for an urban environment, as they are intrinsically unhappy with what their owner can provide for them within the bounds of their own property.

No pets [except maybe fish] are suitable for urban environment but humans have an inherent need to keep such things. According to half the cat owners here they say that the cats are happy to stay indoors all day, others claim they need to go and explore the entire suburb at night to be happy. Whose to say how happy a cat is and what conditions are appropriate? We keep humans [innmates] in more confinement than most of our cats, their comfort isn’t questioned. Look at dementia patients for another example, appropriate measures are made to prevent them going out into the streets and becoming a nuisance to neighbors and motorists, why is it so hard to keep a five pound animal the same way?

Maya123 said :

YeahWhatever said :

Responsible cat owners keep their cats indoors. It takes a bit of effort to setup your home so that your indoor cats remain content. People that let them roam are just lazy, irresponsible and selfish.

No, they likely consider it cruel to imprison a living creature, as keeping birds in cages is cruel. If a cat is desexed they are likely to wander less (thinking mainly of the wandering tomcats here), and they will not add to the feral/stray population.

Maya, you are basically saying that cats are not a suitable pet for an urban environment, as they are intrinsically unhappy with what their owner can provide for them within the bounds of their own property.

Ghettosmurf878:58 am 13 Apr 15

Maya123 said :

YeahWhatever said :

Responsible cat owners keep their cats indoors. It takes a bit of effort to setup your home so that your indoor cats remain content. People that let them roam are just lazy, irresponsible and selfish.

No, they likely consider it cruel to imprison a living creature, as keeping birds in cages is cruel. If a cat is desexed they are likely to wander less (thinking mainly of the wandering tomcats here), and they will not add to the feral/stray population.

We do not even let children or adults wander through other people’s gardens/property without permission, and they have the cognitive ability to know right from wrong. Therefore, why would we let someone else’s animal, who doesn’t know what is and isn’t off limits, roam through them?

Why are cats a unique case compared to other domestic animals which are not allowed to roam around the streets and have even more rights than people to wander through the property of others?

Also, to those who keep comparing the roaming of domestic animals to the roaming and actions of wild/feral ones, stop being disingenuous. You have taken ownership and responsibility for your domestic animal, therefor it is up to you to manage them properly and ensure they are not a menace and do not deface other people’s property

YeahWhatever said :

Responsible cat owners keep their cats indoors. It takes a bit of effort to setup your home so that your indoor cats remain content. People that let them roam are just lazy, irresponsible and selfish.

No, they likely consider it cruel to imprison a living creature, as keeping birds in cages is cruel. If a cat is desexed they are likely to wander less (thinking mainly of the wandering tomcats here), and they will not add to the feral/stray population.

YeahWhatever7:01 pm 12 Apr 15

Responsible cat owners keep their cats indoors. It takes a bit of effort to setup your home so that your indoor cats remain content. People that let them roam are just lazy, irresponsible and selfish.

John Hargreaves said :

dungfungus said :

When you are relaxing with your cat in front of the TV while enjoying some wine, cheese and crackers does your cat get nervous? (about the crackers).

Actually no – but he does when noisy young people run down our street, squealing, whilst not on a leash. They no doubt bring back memories of those who strapped the fireworks to his underbelly and set him alight with kero.

But he does enjoy the peace and quiet of the long weekend now and I keep him by my side when the fireworks go off in November/December for the Tuggeranong Community Festival, which are set off by professionals not amateurs dealing with lethal explosives.

Still smarting over the banning of fireworks, eh? Time to move on.

How come you can ban fireworks successfully but banning drugs at AMC has been unsuccessful?

I wonder how all of these cat owners would feel about a barn owl that’s left to roam for itself.

Y’know, it’s cruel to keep an animal confined and all, so therefore an owl that munches on moggys… letting it do anything other than that would be cruel, right?

John Hargreaves10:28 am 12 Apr 15

Weaselburger said :

Agreed. I have a 4 1/2 year old cat that is too fat and lazy to hunt anything apart from swatting at the odd fly or moth. (she did get an indian minor once but that was an xmas prezzie) All animals have instincts that they follow but if you have a cat and keep it well fed then they usually have no reason to hunt and (like Stella) will just snooze and sunbake all day.

In closing…you can’t stop a cat from being a cat anymore than you can stop a human from being a human. Keeping any pet confined indoors is akin to cruelty. let bygones be bygones and let cats be cats.

Thank You.

Thank you for being kind.

John Hargreaves10:27 am 12 Apr 15

dungfungus said :

When you are relaxing with your cat in front of the TV while enjoying some wine, cheese and crackers does your cat get nervous? (about the crackers).

Actually no – but he does when noisy young people run down our street, squealing, whilst not on a leash. They no doubt bring back memories of those who strapped the fireworks to his underbelly and set him alight with kero.

But he does enjoy the peace and quiet of the long weekend now and I keep him by my side when the fireworks go off in November/December for the Tuggeranong Community Festival, which are set off by professionals not amateurs dealing with lethal explosives.

Still smarting over the banning of fireworks, eh? Time to move on.

Aeek said :

dungfungus said :

When you are relaxing with your cat in front of the TV while enjoying some wine, cheese and crackers does your cat get nervous? (about the crackers).

Most cats are probably into the cheese, anti the wine, and clueless about the crackers.

Like their owners.

Weaselburger said :

Agreed. I have a 4 1/2 year old cat that is too fat and lazy to hunt anything apart from swatting at the odd fly or moth. (she did get an indian minor once but that was an xmas prezzie) All animals have instincts that they follow but if you have a cat and keep it well fed then they usually have no reason to hunt and (like Stella) will just snooze and sunbake all day.

In closing…you can’t stop a cat from being a cat anymore than you can stop a human from being a human. Keeping any pet confined indoors is akin to cruelty. let bygones be bygones and let cats be cats.

Thank You.

“she did get an indian minor once……….”
Blimey, what size cat is she?
What did the kid’s parents say?

Maya123 said :

How do you feel about birds pooing in your garden? They carry disease. Bird flu! Or how about the flying foxes dropping a ‘gift’ as they fly over or roast in your trees? This happens, and we have to live with it. It’s no good singling out just cats about this. I don’t have a cat, but cats use my garden. Instead of letting it upset me, I think positively about this. It’s free garden fertilizer, and at least they bury it, unlike many other creatures. The only way you are going to lock out nature is to build walls and a roof (especially that) over your garden.

Cats don’t always bury their waste when not at “home”. Unless owners follow their roaming cats around all day, they are in no position to claim otherwise.

Domestic cats are not part of nature – they belong to a neighbour who for some reason feels entitled to use other people’s yards to keep their pet entertained. In discussions such as this one, some of those other people are saying “that’s not actually OK, thanks so much for (never) asking!” Regardless of what you feel about visiting cats, other people are entitled to feel differently.

wildturkeycanoe8:49 am 12 Apr 15

Weaselburger said :

Agreed. I have a 4 1/2 year old cat that is too fat and lazy to hunt anything apart from swatting at the odd fly or moth. (she did get an indian minor once but that was an xmas prezzie) All animals have instincts that they follow but if you have a cat and keep it well fed then they usually have no reason to hunt and (like Stella) will just snooze and sunbake all day.

In closing…you can’t stop a cat from being a cat anymore than you can stop a human from being a human. Keeping any pet confined indoors is akin to cruelty. let bygones be bygones and let cats be cats.

Thank You.

Using that logic, I will just let my dog out because he is just a dog who loves nothing better than chasing a lazy cat around the streets and dropping doo-doos on your front lawn, it’s purely animal instincts and it is cruel to keep a dog locked up in a backyard. If every pet owner thought like you, the streets wouldn’t be safe with all the pit bulls and rottweilers out there, whose instinct is to chase and maul anything that moves.
Your bygones have gone and it is time for you to change your attitude and your argument. For one, they are not suggesting keeping a cat locked up indoors, they are suggesting keeping them from roaming the streets, so a cat run or better fencing is all that is required. Just like building a chicken coop or reinforcing the fence for large canines. You have bought a domesticated animal and it no longer has the right to behave like a wild one, instinct or not. If you haven’t got a yard for a cat run, then you probably have no alternative except confinement to inside the house but isn’t that what cat owners want anyway, something that stays indoors with its owner and grows fat from lack of exercise? They have collars and leashes for cats, just like they have for dogs.
Look, times change and we may not like it. I used to be able to ride motorbikes and go off-roading in the bush but now that’s illegal for environmental reasons. I adapted and comply with that law even though I hate it. I used to be able to go hunting with a rifle, but now that became almost impossible thanks to a low-life in Tasmania. I complied and gave up my right to hunt – a human instinct nonetheless. Riding a bicycle without a helmet, fishing without a license, letting off fireworks, owning a dog without micro-chipping and de-sexing it, apparently now it is also illegal to light up a cigarette in a national park even though you can light fires in their camping grounds and take all the beer bottles you want. The insanity of making laws that spoil our fun is overwhelming, but we all got used to them and this is just another one that you will have to get used to. By the time the next generation of cats grow old, say fifteen years or so, this will all be old news.
I still fondly recall that bumper sticker found on many 4x4s, “Lost your cat, look under my tyres”.

Weaselburger1:18 am 12 Apr 15

Agreed. I have a 4 1/2 year old cat that is too fat and lazy to hunt anything apart from swatting at the odd fly or moth. (she did get an indian minor once but that was an xmas prezzie) All animals have instincts that they follow but if you have a cat and keep it well fed then they usually have no reason to hunt and (like Stella) will just snooze and sunbake all day.

In closing…you can’t stop a cat from being a cat anymore than you can stop a human from being a human. Keeping any pet confined indoors is akin to cruelty. let bygones be bygones and let cats be cats.

Thank You.

dungfungus said :

When you are relaxing with your cat in front of the TV while enjoying some wine, cheese and crackers does your cat get nervous? (about the crackers).

Most cats are probably into the cheese, anti the wine, and clueless about the crackers.

Maya123 said :

GardeningGirl said :

I think there are some sensible things that have already been said here more eloquently than I could and there are some strange excuses from people who have made up their minds that a dead bird near someone else’s birdbath or a cat poo in someone else’s veg patch is not a problem (and I’m really disappointed that I voted for someone who doesn’t care about my right to quiet enjoyment of my own garden, but live and learn) so all I’m going to add is yes please to cat containment.

How do you feel about birds pooing in your garden? They carry disease. Bird flu! Or how about the flying foxes dropping a ‘gift’ as they fly over or roast in your trees? This happens, and we have to live with it. It’s no good singling out just cats about this. I don’t have a cat, but cats use my garden. Instead of letting it upset me, I think positively about this. It’s free garden fertilizer, and at least they bury it, unlike many other creatures. The only way you are going to lock out nature is to build walls and a roof (especially that) over your garden.

Um, I meant roost, not roast.

GardeningGirl said :

I think there are some sensible things that have already been said here more eloquently than I could and there are some strange excuses from people who have made up their minds that a dead bird near someone else’s birdbath or a cat poo in someone else’s veg patch is not a problem (and I’m really disappointed that I voted for someone who doesn’t care about my right to quiet enjoyment of my own garden, but live and learn) so all I’m going to add is yes please to cat containment.

How do you feel about birds pooing in your garden? They carry disease. Bird flu! Or how about the flying foxes dropping a ‘gift’ as they fly over or roast in your trees? This happens, and we have to live with it. It’s no good singling out just cats about this. I don’t have a cat, but cats use my garden. Instead of letting it upset me, I think positively about this. It’s free garden fertilizer, and at least they bury it, unlike many other creatures. The only way you are going to lock out nature is to build walls and a roof (especially that) over your garden.

When you are relaxing with your cat in front of the TV while enjoying some wine, cheese and crackers does your cat get nervous? (about the crackers).

This is a pretty good article that summarizes some of the issues as well http://messybeast.com/auspredicament.htm

GardeningGirl7:50 pm 10 Apr 15

I think there are some sensible things that have already been said here more eloquently than I could and there are some strange excuses from people who have made up their minds that a dead bird near someone else’s birdbath or a cat poo in someone else’s veg patch is not a problem (and I’m really disappointed that I voted for someone who doesn’t care about my right to quiet enjoyment of my own garden, but live and learn) so all I’m going to add is yes please to cat containment.

John Hargreaves5:27 pm 10 Apr 15

G_A said :

I have cats, they roam. They do catch mice and rats and I’d rather they didn’t bring them home but they do and I don’t think anyone really cares about the rats & mice, but everyone seems pretty passionate about the birds, which for my two are a very very rare occasion but they have brought them home, a couple of them even got up and flew around before I got them out of the house (I’ve also saved a few mice though I’m not sure I’d get as many cheers on that one).

The big issue on cats that has been prominent in the public eye is the feral cats, killing off native fauna outside of Australia’s natural predators (those that we haven’t killed off ourselves, or been killed by their natural predators) and the mathematics applied to that estimating how many feral cats there are and how many time they kill = number of species made extinct. Not the ones that start the day with a can of tuna have access to water and biscuits all day.

I get that some people love cats and some people hate them, but they are not a human creation, we have merely domesticated the small ones. Some dogs are feral, and they’re killers too. Domesticated dogs get to go outside, when people take them for a walk they let their dogs off a leash whenever and wherever possible (sometimes in areas that clearly state they’re not too) and off they go snigging around, chasing anything that moves and some not having their poo picked up (I have a dog BTW, I’m not bias). I’ve had dogs that have killed birds in my back garden, some of them are bred to chase and bait other animals, Killers all of them – after all, before we domesticated them they had to eat something to survive, those something’s are still out there, maybe there’s now an imbalance of nature. My point being, what did these natural creatures do for food before we domesticated them, they all killed, they all ate, they all survived.

I wonder how many insects are killed on my windscreen every year, my car has also managed to kill birds, kangaroos, echidna’s, rabbits, lizards, and unfortunate also a tortoise. maybe I should stop driving. Let’ s multiply that buy the number of cars and I reckon I’ve wiped out a few species of small winged things that are attracted to the glare of my headlights.

Let’s not put our thumb of human control over the natural order of things on these poor cats that are now bred for domesticity, instead let’s go after the feral ones in the outback, they’re out there with the foxes (introduced), dingos (introduced), stray dogs (introduced), snakes (kill and eat anything), and cane toads (introduced)….maybe we need to take a look at our own habits first and foremost before we relegate cats to an outlawed species by one small step at a time.

Whoa yeah! Spot on.

John Hargreaves5:25 pm 10 Apr 15

Garfield said :

After doing some reading I’ve learned:
1. 30% of free-roaming domestic cats (an average of 5+ hours outdoors every day or 80%+ of their waking hours) kill 2 animals a week, the other 70% of free-roaming domestic cats don’t kill
2. Domestic cat kill rates are halved when cats are kept inside at night
3. Feral cats kill 5 or more animals every day on average
4. Feral cats have been established in Australia since at least the 1850’s
5. Feral cat numbers fluctuate with the availability of food, but 15 million seems to be a reasonable average figure
6. There are 3.3 million domestic cats in Australia

So the average completely free-roaming domestic cat racks up around 32 kills a year. If kept inside at night that falls to 16. In comparison a feral cat will kill 1800+ animals a year – 57 times as many as a free roaming domestic cat and 114 times as many as a cat that is only allowed to roam during the day. Overall feral cats kill more than 27 billion animals a year. Even if all domestic cats were free roaming cats, which they aren’t, they would kill 105 million animals a year. That’s 0.4% of total cat kills.

If we adopt total cat containment in the ACT this is what will happen:
Responsible cat owners will keep their cats indoors or spend lots of money on cat runs. These are the owners who are probably not allowing their cats unlimited outdoor access now.
Irresponsible cat owners will continue to let their cats roam free, won’t desex them and they will continue to breed and add to feral cat populations.
Animal services do not have the resources to respond to complaints about roaming dogs, so nothing will happen to the people who let their cats roam.
The impact on wildlife will be statistically insignificant as domestic cats are only a tiny fraction of the problem, and the majority of problem domestic cats will continue to roam.

How about these as an alternative set of measures:
1. Cats must be registered and desexed and kept indoors at night
2. Animal Services gets more funding and non-lethal traps are placed in nature reserves near housing to catch small predators
3. Feral cats and foxes caught are euthanised
4. The owners of registered cats pay a fee to collect them and if the same cat is caught three times then it is subject to a containment order
5. The owners of unregistered cats are fined and the cat registered
6. The owners of unregistered undesexed cats get a bigger fine and must pay to get the cat desexed before its returned

To my detractors who accuse me of not responding, let me say that I am back in Canberra now, so am back in the saddle.

This is the best post of them all and I concur without reservation.

Check out this great vid on how far cats can travel using GPS collars http://news.nationalgeographic.com.au/news/2014/08/140807-cat-tracker-pets-animals-science-gps/

Ghettosmurf8712:13 pm 10 Apr 15

I don’t even know why we are framing this as an ecological debate.

It should simply be a debate about responsible pet ownership. I.e all domestic pets should be required to be desexed (where unregulated breeding is an issue) or registered for breeding and all domestic pets should be required to be kept within the owners property unless harnessed/leashed.

Cats, dogs, birds, alpacas, fish, lizards, etc. Treat all domestic pets the same.

I’d like to thank JohnH for posting this, I didn’t realise cat traps were legal! I’ve just ordered 2 and now have a way of dealing with these roaming cats who are getting into our yard, digging up our vegetable garden, killing birds in our yard and leaving the body and generally making a right nuisance of themselves so John once again, thanks!!

Antagonist said :

ladybird said :

I’m not totally at one with the arguments as put forward by John Hargreaves. However, blanket cat containment is an irrational policy proposal that will deliver little in the way of outcomes for biodiversity in the city. There are other conservation priorities that would immediately improve the health of biodiversity in the ACT, such as improvements to gardens in residential areas, better tree health maintenance regimes and better waterways management.

If you love native fauna, then campaign for human beings to more positively manage and create the right environment for the ACT’s biodiversity first. Not as easy as animal hate, but a whole lot more healthy for the world and society.

The problem with your argument (IMO) is that you place too high a value on biodiversity as an indicator of a good conservation outcomes. This ignores the fact that areas with low biodiversity may still have high conservation value – which applies to the modified box gum grassy woodlands you refer to. You can also have areas such as rubbish dumps that have surprisingly high biodiversity, but little conservation value.

The next problem (a ‘wicked problem’) arises from your discussion of urban ecosystem equilibrium. You suggest it is better to do nothing policy-wise because there is no long-term science to predict what might happen if we control cats in an urban environment, and this is where I disagree with you. We can formulate policy without knowing the exact nature of wicked problems that may arise, if mechanisms are in place so that policies and managers can adapt and respond. You should be able to find an example of an adaptive management process that has been incorporated into the Molonglo NES Plan (p.36 I think). So while I do agree that more knowledge is needed, it does not mean we are not in a position to formulate policy or take action on those factors over which we have some control.

It is a shame you accuse those in favour of cat containment of being cat haters (four times). Your argument was pretty solid up until that point.

PS – for those predicting mouse plagues, you should be able to find a pattern in historical records by plotting mouse plagues against annual rainfall. Cats are not a significant factor.

I agree you can probably predict mouse plagues with rainfall. But cats may have a role in controlling them in urban areas when they happen.

I’m not suggesting do nothing. I’m suggesting not doing something short sighted and reactionary, when its possible to do many other things with tax payer resources that would benefit biodiversity much more profoundly at this juncture.

I don’t see the logic in your low biodiversity / high conservation value argument. The reality is that most highly modified urban areas such as much of Canberra do not have have the habitat values which would support population viability for many of the specialist or threatened species that would otherwise have inhabited the area. The generalist species seem to be getting on pretty well in Canberra with cats.

If the government wants to manage feral animals, then money and effort would be better directed to managing rabbits in reserves, managing ferals in Namadgi – all of this is desperately underfunded work – or managing other potentially major threatening processes in less disturbed environments. This is undoubtedly tax payer money well spent.

Also, spend money educating and supporting the public to improve the habitat values of their own back yards. Plus do something about the decline in the health of many of Canberra’s street trees. A few more summers with many days above 40 degrees and no precipitation, and no adequate watering program and those trees are on the way out.

The value proposition of cat containment doesn’t stack up relative to other initiatives and efforts that the ACT government could be making to ensure the ongoing environmental health of the city at this point.

The policy proposal as it stands does pander to a mentality that is reactionary and gives a mandate to people whose attitude is one of hate. It’s apparent in the irrational diatribes here on RiotAct.

It is all too easy to resort to a ‘blame’ mentality towards other creatures when you see them with a bird in their mouth and assume that all biodiversity in the city of Canberra is crashing because of that. There just isn’t the evidence for that. It’s much harder to change the behaviour and mentality of the most destructive invasive creature in the landscape – which is sad to say, irrefutably human beings.

There isn’t enough evidence to know what role cats play in urban environments at this juncture. There is plenty of evidence that a lack of habitat is terrible for biodiversity, regardless of whether generalist or specialist. I say you can create sensible policy now to improve the habitat values of the city, do some proper controlled studies meantime to understand the role of cats and other creatures within their food web. The world would be better for that.

ladybird said :

I’m not totally at one with the arguments as put forward by John Hargreaves. However, blanket cat containment is an irrational policy proposal that will deliver little in the way of outcomes for biodiversity in the city. There are other conservation priorities that would immediately improve the health of biodiversity in the ACT, such as improvements to gardens in residential areas, better tree health maintenance regimes and better waterways management.

If you love native fauna, then campaign for human beings to more positively manage and create the right environment for the ACT’s biodiversity first. Not as easy as animal hate, but a whole lot more healthy for the world and society.

The problem with your argument (IMO) is that you place too high a value on biodiversity as an indicator of a good conservation outcomes. This ignores the fact that areas with low biodiversity may still have high conservation value – which applies to the modified box gum grassy woodlands you refer to. You can also have areas such as rubbish dumps that have surprisingly high biodiversity, but little conservation value.

The next problem (a ‘wicked problem’) arises from your discussion of urban ecosystem equilibrium. You suggest it is better to do nothing policy-wise because there is no long-term science to predict what might happen if we control cats in an urban environment, and this is where I disagree with you. We can formulate policy without knowing the exact nature of wicked problems that may arise, if mechanisms are in place so that policies and managers can adapt and respond. You should be able to find an example of an adaptive management process that has been incorporated into the Molonglo NES Plan (p.36 I think). So while I do agree that more knowledge is needed, it does not mean we are not in a position to formulate policy or take action on those factors over which we have some control.

It is a shame you accuse those in favour of cat containment of being cat haters (four times). Your argument was pretty solid up until that point.

PS – for those predicting mouse plagues, you should be able to find a pattern in historical records by plotting mouse plagues against annual rainfall. Cats are not a significant factor.

Total Cat containment cant happen soon enough and TOUGH penalities for non conformance –

Neighbour hood cats continually defecat in my garden (fron and Back) and regularly spray my front door.

I have to keep my dog under control at all times and walk it on a leash and even have to pick and carry its excement when out and about.

I have only ever come accross ONE responsible cat owner who vlountarily made runs and conatined areas to keep their cat and I have the strongest repect for her commitment (im sure there are others but I have never met them)

wildturkeycanoe8:37 pm 09 Apr 15

Maya123 said :

ladybird said :

I’m not totally at one with the arguments as put forward by John Hargreaves. However, blanket cat containment is an irrational policy proposal that will deliver little in the way of outcomes for biodiversity in the city. There are other conservation priorities that would immediately improve the health of biodiversity in the ACT, such as improvements to gardens in residential areas, better tree health maintenance regimes and better waterways management.

Removal of cats from islands has in some cases led to drastic biodiversity decline, as other invasives proliferate. There is no point managing cats in the ACT unless rodents and rabbits are simultaneously managed. Cats are likely providing some level of ecosystem service role within urban environments, such as managing rodent populations (and rodents are far more mobile and therefore pernicious predators when it comes to bird nests and eggs). Or managing rabbit populations. Yes, it is confronting when you see a cat eating a silver eye. But there isn’t sufficient evidence to know whether cats and native biodiversity in urban environments operate within a kind of equilibrium – that is, whether over the course of 100 hundred years or so of cat presence in the ACT, there is now some form of balance. The science is not present and is needed before policy is formulated.

I urge RiotAct contributors to read the report that the ANU and the ACT Conservation Council put forward. They quote Lillith (2007) who found, based on a study of reserve lands in and around Perth that habitat quality is the biggest determinant of small mammal species richness, not cat predation (then go on to ignore that study). I might add, the ANU ACT Conservation Council report can quote no proper long-term studies which examine the role of cats in ACT urban areas, vis a vis other invasives or urban biodiversity. This science is needed before policy is formulated.

Canberra is sadly not Box Gum Grassy Woodland anymore. It is a highly modified environment – and has been most recently been allowed to be very insensitively modified by Jon Stanhope who is now making claims for biodiversity (?!!)

Land clearance, lack of biodiverse friendly gardens, poor tree health, the fragmentation created by roads and urban development are major reasons for biodiversity decline and will create pressing challenges under climate change. All these factors lead to landscapes which are far more hostile, offer less protection as well as feeding and breeding habitat for biodiversity. The fight for biodiversity should be about habitat availability and quality first. Otherwise, the cat containment policy is completely pointless.

There are plenty of homes which are largely silent to the sounds of biodiversity in the ACT. These ‘mini deserts’ potentially do more harm than urban cats. In twenty years time, when everyone has a biodiverse wildlife friendly garden and there is a properly funded plan (that is a tax payer funding base) to simultaneously manage rats, mice and rabbits, then its time to start talking cat containment. Otherwise, its just an emotive, reactionary hate-generating policy as evidenced by some of the comments here, and that is rather stupid.

Any policy that brings out as much hate for other living creatures (regardless of their nature or ‘invasiveness’) is just on the wrong foot morally and in terms of the culture it fosters within society.

There is no need to hate them so much as we don’t know at this stage what role they play in urban ecosystems.

Cats are cats. They kill.But they are unconscious innocents. We introduced them long time ago. Reality is that unless there are a suite of comprehensive other conservation measures, then cat containment will do little good.

If you love native fauna, then campaign for human beings to more positively manage and create the right environment for the ACT’s biodiversity first. Not as easy as animal hate, but a whole lot more healthy for the world and society.

+1 The best reply here.
I vaguely recall seeing a documentary about the rats plague that was caused in a medieval city when the local dogs and cats were removed from the streets in massive numbers.

Why do cats need to be roaming free of their yard to kill mice and rats, do the little cheese-eaters not come into our yards to infest our houses? Poor argument, especially considering that apparently there are 15 million feral cats already out there doing the population control for us. We don’t need our domesticated felines free on the streets to do anything, they can remain in their own yards just like every other domesticated pet.
Sooooo special these cat lovers.

I suppose we could replace cats with quolls. They are a native predator, occupying a similar ecological niche to the cat. I wonder if they would make good pets.

I agree with a previous comment. My dog isn’t allowed to roam free around the suburb, and quite frankly neither should cats.

I have a big problem at my place with cats and really don’t know what to do about it. Problem I have is the cat wanders past the house/fighting/crapping in my garden which trip the sensor lights (or make enough noise for the dog to hear), the dog then goes crazy at either the noise or seeing the lights come on, which then wakes my 4 month old, which then wakes my wife, who then gets cranky at me because its apparently “my dog” and she spent all that time trying to get the baby to sleep.

Why is your cat my problem? Its not only affecting my kid’s sleep, my wife’s sleep, my sleep, but even to the stage of affecting our marriage due to the anger between us about “my dog”.

Sure I can get rid of my dog but its my choice to have a dog who I cherish and look after and also keep within my yard – and yet fellow neighbour’s negligence or lack of care to keep their cat’s contained is making my life miserable.

What i’ve said seem extreme? Maybe, but its the genuine truth.

So what are my choices? Cat trap – sure can do this and then what – take the cat to the RSPCA who will contact the owner to come pick it up. Problem returns. Catch the cat and take it out bush? Would fix the problem but its illegal and is someone’s loved pet. Bait the cats – again illegal and I don’t want to kill anyone’s pet (even if it is on my property causing me headaches). Alternatively the owners could just keep their beloved pet to themselves on their property like I do mine.

ladybird said :

I’m not totally at one with the arguments as put forward by John Hargreaves. However, blanket cat containment is an irrational policy proposal that will deliver little in the way of outcomes for biodiversity in the city. There are other conservation priorities that would immediately improve the health of biodiversity in the ACT, such as improvements to gardens in residential areas, better tree health maintenance regimes and better waterways management.

Removal of cats from islands has in some cases led to drastic biodiversity decline, as other invasives proliferate. There is no point managing cats in the ACT unless rodents and rabbits are simultaneously managed. Cats are likely providing some level of ecosystem service role within urban environments, such as managing rodent populations (and rodents are far more mobile and therefore pernicious predators when it comes to bird nests and eggs). Or managing rabbit populations. Yes, it is confronting when you see a cat eating a silver eye. But there isn’t sufficient evidence to know whether cats and native biodiversity in urban environments operate within a kind of equilibrium – that is, whether over the course of 100 hundred years or so of cat presence in the ACT, there is now some form of balance. The science is not present and is needed before policy is formulated.

I urge RiotAct contributors to read the report that the ANU and the ACT Conservation Council put forward. They quote Lillith (2007) who found, based on a study of reserve lands in and around Perth that habitat quality is the biggest determinant of small mammal species richness, not cat predation (then go on to ignore that study). I might add, the ANU ACT Conservation Council report can quote no proper long-term studies which examine the role of cats in ACT urban areas, vis a vis other invasives or urban biodiversity. This science is needed before policy is formulated.

Canberra is sadly not Box Gum Grassy Woodland anymore. It is a highly modified environment – and has been most recently been allowed to be very insensitively modified by Jon Stanhope who is now making claims for biodiversity (?!!)

Land clearance, lack of biodiverse friendly gardens, poor tree health, the fragmentation created by roads and urban development are major reasons for biodiversity decline and will create pressing challenges under climate change. All these factors lead to landscapes which are far more hostile, offer less protection as well as feeding and breeding habitat for biodiversity. The fight for biodiversity should be about habitat availability and quality first. Otherwise, the cat containment policy is completely pointless.

There are plenty of homes which are largely silent to the sounds of biodiversity in the ACT. These ‘mini deserts’ potentially do more harm than urban cats. In twenty years time, when everyone has a biodiverse wildlife friendly garden and there is a properly funded plan (that is a tax payer funding base) to simultaneously manage rats, mice and rabbits, then its time to start talking cat containment. Otherwise, its just an emotive, reactionary hate-generating policy as evidenced by some of the comments here, and that is rather stupid.

Any policy that brings out as much hate for other living creatures (regardless of their nature or ‘invasiveness’) is just on the wrong foot morally and in terms of the culture it fosters within society.

There is no need to hate them so much as we don’t know at this stage what role they play in urban ecosystems.

Cats are cats. They kill.But they are unconscious innocents. We introduced them long time ago. Reality is that unless there are a suite of comprehensive other conservation measures, then cat containment will do little good.

If you love native fauna, then campaign for human beings to more positively manage and create the right environment for the ACT’s biodiversity first. Not as easy as animal hate, but a whole lot more healthy for the world and society.

+1 The best reply here.
I vaguely recall seeing a documentary about the rats plague that was caused in a medieval city when the local dogs and cats were removed from the streets in massive numbers.

Enclose all cats, get a mouse and rat plague (ask your grandparents what that was like), get foxes replacing cats in cities (already happening) then find that rat poison is not very nice stuff, especially when your dog or child eats it…… time to consider consequences including fox borne disease, decimation of home chookflocks,…. time for a balanced look at respective outcomes, and make a decision for all of us, not just the feliphobics.
I have cats, birds lizards, frogs and tadpoles all seeming to behave together in a normal ecosystematic way, in my suburban yard, well away from real bushland. My cats are old domestics (quite a long way from the ferocious ferals), and locking them up seems excessively cruel. What does the RSPCA say to complete cat containment ? By all means debate the issue, but don’t get pushed around by any one lobby group!

I’m not totally at one with the arguments as put forward by John Hargreaves. However, blanket cat containment is an irrational policy proposal that will deliver little in the way of outcomes for biodiversity in the city. There are other conservation priorities that would immediately improve the health of biodiversity in the ACT, such as improvements to gardens in residential areas, better tree health maintenance regimes and better waterways management.

Removal of cats from islands has in some cases led to drastic biodiversity decline, as other invasives proliferate. There is no point managing cats in the ACT unless rodents and rabbits are simultaneously managed. Cats are likely providing some level of ecosystem service role within urban environments, such as managing rodent populations (and rodents are far more mobile and therefore pernicious predators when it comes to bird nests and eggs). Or managing rabbit populations. Yes, it is confronting when you see a cat eating a silver eye. But there isn’t sufficient evidence to know whether cats and native biodiversity in urban environments operate within a kind of equilibrium – that is, whether over the course of 100 hundred years or so of cat presence in the ACT, there is now some form of balance. The science is not present and is needed before policy is formulated.

I urge RiotAct contributors to read the report that the ANU and the ACT Conservation Council put forward. They quote Lillith (2007) who found, based on a study of reserve lands in and around Perth that habitat quality is the biggest determinant of small mammal species richness, not cat predation (then go on to ignore that study). I might add, the ANU ACT Conservation Council report can quote no proper long-term studies which examine the role of cats in ACT urban areas, vis a vis other invasives or urban biodiversity. This science is needed before policy is formulated.

Canberra is sadly not Box Gum Grassy Woodland anymore. It is a highly modified environment – and has been most recently been allowed to be very insensitively modified by Jon Stanhope who is now making claims for biodiversity (?!!)

Land clearance, lack of biodiverse friendly gardens, poor tree health, the fragmentation created by roads and urban development are major reasons for biodiversity decline and will create pressing challenges under climate change. All these factors lead to landscapes which are far more hostile, offer less protection as well as feeding and breeding habitat for biodiversity. The fight for biodiversity should be about habitat availability and quality first. Otherwise, the cat containment policy is completely pointless.

There are plenty of homes which are largely silent to the sounds of biodiversity in the ACT. These ‘mini deserts’ potentially do more harm than urban cats. In twenty years time, when everyone has a biodiverse wildlife friendly garden and there is a properly funded plan (that is a tax payer funding base) to simultaneously manage rats, mice and rabbits, then its time to start talking cat containment. Otherwise, its just an emotive, reactionary hate-generating policy as evidenced by some of the comments here, and that is rather stupid.

Any policy that brings out as much hate for other living creatures (regardless of their nature or ‘invasiveness’) is just on the wrong foot morally and in terms of the culture it fosters within society.

There is no need to hate them so much as we don’t know at this stage what role they play in urban ecosystems.

Cats are cats. They kill.But they are unconscious innocents. We introduced them long time ago. Reality is that unless there are a suite of comprehensive other conservation measures, then cat containment will do little good.

If you love native fauna, then campaign for human beings to more positively manage and create the right environment for the ACT’s biodiversity first. Not as easy as animal hate, but a whole lot more healthy for the world and society.

I have cats, they roam. They do catch mice and rats and I’d rather they didn’t bring them home but they do and I don’t think anyone really cares about the rats & mice, but everyone seems pretty passionate about the birds, which for my two are a very very rare occasion but they have brought them home, a couple of them even got up and flew around before I got them out of the house (I’ve also saved a few mice though I’m not sure I’d get as many cheers on that one).

The big issue on cats that has been prominent in the public eye is the feral cats, killing off native fauna outside of Australia’s natural predators (those that we haven’t killed off ourselves, or been killed by their natural predators) and the mathematics applied to that estimating how many feral cats there are and how many time they kill = number of species made extinct. Not the ones that start the day with a can of tuna have access to water and biscuits all day.

I get that some people love cats and some people hate them, but they are not a human creation, we have merely domesticated the small ones. Some dogs are feral, and they’re killers too. Domesticated dogs get to go outside, when people take them for a walk they let their dogs off a leash whenever and wherever possible (sometimes in areas that clearly state they’re not too) and off they go snigging around, chasing anything that moves and some not having their poo picked up (I have a dog BTW, I’m not bias). I’ve had dogs that have killed birds in my back garden, some of them are bred to chase and bait other animals, Killers all of them – after all, before we domesticated them they had to eat something to survive, those something’s are still out there, maybe there’s now an imbalance of nature. My point being, what did these natural creatures do for food before we domesticated them, they all killed, they all ate, they all survived.

I wonder how many insects are killed on my windscreen every year, my car has also managed to kill birds, kangaroos, echidna’s, rabbits, lizards, and unfortunate also a tortoise. maybe I should stop driving. Let’ s multiply that buy the number of cars and I reckon I’ve wiped out a few species of small winged things that are attracted to the glare of my headlights.

Let’s not put our thumb of human control over the natural order of things on these poor cats that are now bred for domesticity, instead let’s go after the feral ones in the outback, they’re out there with the foxes (introduced), dingos (introduced), stray dogs (introduced), snakes (kill and eat anything), and cane toads (introduced)….maybe we need to take a look at our own habits first and foremost before we relegate cats to an outlawed species by one small step at a time.

Total cat containment is absolutely ridiculous! It’s going to cause all sorts of behavioural problems and people will have to spend a fortune on building enclosures etc. I think getting to the root of the problem (ensuring that all cats are able to be desexed affordably, which is the law) will greatly help this issue.
Also, fitting bells onto cats collars helps a great deal with their hunting antics.

I totally agree with John when he says if we keep our cats well fed, entertained and have them de-sexed, the killing of native wild life will greatly decrease. My cats only catch and kill the odd mouse here and there. Which is helpful!

Cats do pretty well living indoors but I personally think they’re much happier when they’re able to get out and about. They need constant stimulation and their need to explore is primal.

I’m currently running a petition to help Canberra vets get on board with the National De-sexing netwok which is a nationwide (accept for the ACT) referral system for discounted desexing made available to pet owners in financial need. Their goal is to end pet overpopulation by making this service more affordable to those who might not otherwise be in a position to desex their pets. Canberra is currently the ONLY state in Australia with no vets participating in this fantastic initiative!

It seems that getting Canberra vets on board with the National Desexing Network will help solve a lot of these issues. Total cat containment is definitely not the solution. It will cause so many problems!

For more information about the National Desexing Network you can visit their site here:
http://www.ndn.org.au/about-ndn.html

And if you would like to help me urge Canberra vets to participate in this great initiative, please take just a moment to sign the petition. Why should Canberra be the ONLY state that’s not a part of it? We’re not all politicians on $80,000 plus a year!

https://www.change.org/p/act-community-councils-help-the-act-and-it-s-veterinary-practices-become-part-on-the-national-desexing-network

After doing some reading I’ve learned:
1. 30% of free-roaming domestic cats (an average of 5+ hours outdoors every day or 80%+ of their waking hours) kill 2 animals a week, the other 70% of free-roaming domestic cats don’t kill
2. Domestic cat kill rates are halved when cats are kept inside at night
3. Feral cats kill 5 or more animals every day on average
4. Feral cats have been established in Australia since at least the 1850’s
5. Feral cat numbers fluctuate with the availability of food, but 15 million seems to be a reasonable average figure
6. There are 3.3 million domestic cats in Australia

So the average completely free-roaming domestic cat racks up around 32 kills a year. If kept inside at night that falls to 16. In comparison a feral cat will kill 1800+ animals a year – 57 times as many as a free roaming domestic cat and 114 times as many as a cat that is only allowed to roam during the day. Overall feral cats kill more than 27 billion animals a year. Even if all domestic cats were free roaming cats, which they aren’t, they would kill 105 million animals a year. That’s 0.4% of total cat kills.

If we adopt total cat containment in the ACT this is what will happen:
Responsible cat owners will keep their cats indoors or spend lots of money on cat runs. These are the owners who are probably not allowing their cats unlimited outdoor access now.
Irresponsible cat owners will continue to let their cats roam free, won’t desex them and they will continue to breed and add to feral cat populations.
Animal services do not have the resources to respond to complaints about roaming dogs, so nothing will happen to the people who let their cats roam.
The impact on wildlife will be statistically insignificant as domestic cats are only a tiny fraction of the problem, and the majority of problem domestic cats will continue to roam.

How about these as an alternative set of measures:
1. Cats must be registered and desexed and kept indoors at night
2. Animal Services gets more funding and non-lethal traps are placed in nature reserves near housing to catch small predators
3. Feral cats and foxes caught are euthanised
4. The owners of registered cats pay a fee to collect them and if the same cat is caught three times then it is subject to a containment order
5. The owners of unregistered cats are fined and the cat registered
6. The owners of unregistered undesexed cats get a bigger fine and must pay to get the cat desexed before its returned

Compulsory voting – laws on bike helmets – cat containment?.

The Nanny State is alive and well!

An amendment to John’s original post – kittens should be desexed at 6 weeks of age. They should be desexed when they have a stable weight of 1kg, which is roughly the 12 week mark.

I have 2 purebred cats who are both kept strictly indoors in the Forde area. I am glad to know where they are at all times and have minimal vet bills. They are taken on walks on the lead, and we are saving for a proper enclosure.

The trick is to keep them contained from kittenhood. Cats will grow up without stress with the limitations being placed on them from kittenhood. It’s when you break up heir daily routine of wandering outdoors by containing them that they will get stressed. I think with time they could adapt to being a contained animal. Should there be Canberra-wide containment, it must be phased over time to accommodate adult cats who will be stressed from being contained.

While we’re at it, could we have a look at yapyapyapyapyapyapyapyap dogs whose owners refuse to curb their terrible barking behaviour?! 🙂

What happens when all the cats are contained and Canberra has a rat and mice plague? Baiting/poisoning rats and mice is not a good enough solution for many reasons.

Surely there is a better solution than containing cats completely. It’s cruel to take an animal that has had access to freedom/sunshine etc and contain it for the rest of its life – although I do agree its different if the animal has always been an indoor/enclosed animal (to a degree).

I feel as though containment is an unimaginative solution…

“You show me proof that a domestic cat … brought down a kangaroo in an adjacent nature reserve … and I’ll say OK, don’t worry anymore about feral dogs, worry about domestic cats.”

For something more tongue-in-cheek, here we have images of a 4 kg Pademelon being taken down and consumed by a cat.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-30/scientists-catch-a-feral-cat-killing-a-large-mammal-on-camera-f/6357868

Pademelons are one of the smallest macropods (kangaroos, wallabies etc). If you accept the premise that the only difference between a domestic cat and feral cat is that one has human servants, then it stands to reason that the domestic cat is a far greater threat than you might think. In fairness, scientific evidence shows that cats (domestic and feral) actually have a preference for lizards and small mammals which are very common throughout Wanniassa. Maybe lizards really do taste like chicken?

Conan of Cooma10:55 am 09 Apr 15

Cats are killers, it’s in their nature. To say your cat kills less then other cats, and that you don’t live near endangered species, is simply a cop out to make yourself feel like you are doing the right thing. Claiming that a love for cats makes you biased, therefore validating your argument, is simply self delusion. It doesn’t matter how much you love, feed, water or pat your cat – If it has access to certain wildlife it will kill it. Reducing this access to wildlife is the only way to hinder that result.

I’m all for wiping out feral animals, but you need to remember that we wouldn’t have ferals if we hadn’t brought their domesticated ancestors here first.

Alexandra Craig11:09 pm 08 Apr 15

matt31221 said :

OK so you have all these what you believe to be logical reasons to why cats should be contained, some possible counter arguments to mine to which I won’t attempt to rebute as it’s 930pm and I can’t be stuffed as it’s been quite the long day (apologies).

But I will say this, I am completely biased as I love cats. They have been a big part of my life and I love owning them and seeing Domestic cats with collars in public, it honestly warms my heart. I have a huge soft spot for cats and so do many other Canberra dwellers. So I think this is going to be a battle of the wills. There were plently of logical and scientific reasons for the introduction of the carbon tax but enough voters voted against it and it was unfortunately repealed. I think cat lovers who are against total cat containment should stand up, write letters and vote against it. I will. Perhaps we outnumber the cat containment proponents. Maybe there can be consolation laws like a domestic cat must wear a collar and bell, or a scrunchie. There was a recent article that discussed the benefit as a scrunchie for a cat collar, it prevented wildlife kills.

That scrunchie argument was a bit silly though. Totally dangerous for the cats. Scrunchies have elastic in them and could choke the cat. They could also be very easily caught on branches etc. Collars are dangerous enough – on a cat rescue page I follow they posted the story (and photos) of a cat whose collar got caught around their leg. I won’t go into graphic detail but let’s just say the cat required a lot of stitches 🙁

OK so you have all these what you believe to be logical reasons to why cats should be contained, some possible counter arguments to mine to which I won’t attempt to rebute as it’s 930pm and I can’t be stuffed as it’s been quite the long day (apologies).

But I will say this, I am completely biased as I love cats. They have been a big part of my life and I love owning them and seeing Domestic cats with collars in public, it honestly warms my heart. I have a huge soft spot for cats and so do many other Canberra dwellers. So I think this is going to be a battle of the wills. There were plently of logical and scientific reasons for the introduction of the carbon tax but enough voters voted against it and it was unfortunately repealed. I think cat lovers who are against total cat containment should stand up, write letters and vote against it. I will. Perhaps we outnumber the cat containment proponents. Maybe there can be consolation laws like a domestic cat must wear a collar and bell, or a scrunchie. There was a recent article that discussed the benefit as a scrunchie for a cat collar, it prevented wildlife kills.

matt31221 said :

Also, Genie made a bloody good point about foxes and other predatory wildlife causing much havoc around the suburbs. Killing much more than a domestic cat.

Might’ve been a better point if it had been supported by evidence, rather than appearing to be an assertion plucked from thin air.

John can’t have his cake and eat it. He championed wildlife when providing reasons for the banning of fireworks, and now turns around and waves aside concerns about the death and mutilation of wildlife in urban areas because now he has a vested interest. I find this to be quite hypocritical.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-08-24/act-bans-fireworks/1402218

Genie said :

matt31221 said :

Also, Genie made a bloody good point about foxes and other predatory wildlife causing much havoc around the suburbs. Killing much more than a domestic cat.

I’m glad someone understood where I was coming from. Everyone is quick to blame cats roaming around, but there is just as many if not more wild animals killing wildlife too.

Nobody is denying that. But again it is an irrational argument. We do what we can to control those feral animals. They are trapped/baited/shot. And controls are placed on domestic pets. Why should cats have an exemption? Just because other pest species are killing native wildlife does that mean we don’t do anything in one area where we can make a real difference? As opposed to the logistics of eradicating foxes, there is a feasible (non-destructive) solution to limiting the impact of cats.

Also I notice that once again John has a dropped a bomb on one of his personal crusades and then disappeared when he can’t defend his argument.

FrankReynolds12:22 pm 08 Apr 15

matt31221 said :

I’m with you on this one John. Domestic Cat’s have roamed for decades because they have the smarts to fit in without causing strife. Dogs are territorial and may become aggressive towards pedestrians. Cats will either run away from you or come for a pat.

I find it lovely when a domestic cat enters my property for a pat, or I see a known cat going for a leisurely stroll. I’m sick of hearing all this “cats kill wildlife” bullsh$t, who kills more? Cats or us? Do you eat Chickenor meat? Drive a car? Have possibly hit and maimed kangaroos and exotic birds with it? Screw cat containment.

Also, Genie made a bloody good point about foxes and other predatory wildlife causing much havoc around the suburbs. Killing much more than a domestic cat.

Your first point: “It shouldn’t change because this is the way it’s always been” is an awful reason for not changing anything. If this was the norm, there would be no progression ever. As our understanding of our impacts on the environment have changed we have introduced regulation and legislation to mediate impacts. This is just another example. We have more and more conclusive evidence of the impact of free-roaming cats, so we have a responsibility to do something about it, don’t we?

Your second and third point: “Cats may have an impact, but who cares, we have a larger one” + “other ferals are worse” are frustrating deflections. Impacts are cumulative. If we can reduce the impact of one factor, the total impacts are reduced.

Lastly, “do you eat chicken or meat” is one side of a much larger argument. I may eat chicken, but I don’t eat endangered bandicoots, rock wallaby joeys, native birds etc. But I’ll concede that this is a much larger argument than cat containment.

“There should be penalties, and confiscation, of cats found and not desexed”

Labors communist answer to everything. You will conform or get penalties and confiscation.

What will you do to the confiscated cats ?

Genie said :

matt31221 said :

Also, Genie made a bloody good point about foxes and other predatory wildlife causing much havoc around the suburbs. Killing much more than a domestic cat.

I’m glad someone understood where I was coming from. Everyone is quick to blame cats roaming around, but there is just as many if not more wild animals killing wildlife too.

So because there are feral pigs, goats, foxes, dogs, rabbits, and myna birds causing damage to the local ecology, then we should not do anything about domestic and feral cats? To control feral cats effectively, we need domestic cat owners to act responsibly. The containment and desexing of cats is a necessary evil.

John – Most of the time I agree with your views. Unfortunately, this is not one of them. There are so many erroneous assumptions underlying your reasoning that I don’t know where to start. To be blunt, it shows that you have very little knowledge of either ecology or cat behaviour. It makes it difficult to have a serious public conversation about cat ownership.

matt31221 said :

Also, Genie made a bloody good point about foxes and other predatory wildlife causing much havoc around the suburbs. Killing much more than a domestic cat.

I’m glad someone understood where I was coming from. Everyone is quick to blame cats roaming around, but there is just as many if not more wild animals killing wildlife too.

I’m looking forward to compulsory dog bark containment. Sick of it coming over my fence from owners who can’t believe their pet can make such a racket all day long when they’re not home.

I’m with you on this one John. Domestic Cat’s have roamed for decades because they have the smarts to fit in without causing strife. Dogs are territorial and may become aggressive towards pedestrians. Cats will either run away from you or come for a pat.

I find it lovely when a domestic cat enters my property for a pat, or I see a known cat going for a leisurely stroll. I’m sick of hearing all this “cats kill wildlife” bullsh$t, who kills more? Cats or us? Do you eat Chickenor meat? Drive a car? Have possibly hit and maimed kangaroos and exotic birds with it? Screw cat containment.

Also, Genie made a bloody good point about foxes and other predatory wildlife causing much havoc around the suburbs. Killing much more than a domestic cat.

BerraCitizen said :

We all know cats are more independent than dogs and have more of a free spirit. This comes with pros and cons depending on your view. I personally like both cats and dogs. Our family chose cats because we live a busy lifestyle and wanted pets with less maintenance i.e. you don’t have to walk a cat.

To be honest, I don’t think domestic cats and dogs are really that different. They both thrive when given human attention, they are both social animals and if you only have one it is cruel to imagine that it can be left outside to its own devices all day because it is a “free spirit.” Perhaps if you have such a busy lifestyle, you are simply too busy to own any pet.

Alexandra Craig10:10 pm 07 Apr 15

Grrrr said :

“A cat from a responsible owner does (in my limited experience) way less any damage to wildlife than some people say, and hardly annoys anyone else” are not sufficient justifications for allowing a cat to roam.

Further, this article contains zero reasons justify why cats SHOULD be allowed to roam. IE, I hear no detrimental effects from the forced containment of cats.

If by “a couple of streets bordering Nature Reserves” you (John) mean that no-one who lives within, say, 250m of a Nature Reserve should be allowed to let their cat roam, then I’d call that a good idea. Of course, that could cover as much as a quarter of all canberra residential properties given the number of reserves we have.

Genie – None of those animals have any bearing on whether cats should be contained or not. (IMO – natives visiting? Fine. Ferals? Kill them all.)

Out of curiousity: What if someone set up a cat trap (cage, no harm to cat) on their own property, and delivered any cats caught to the RSPCA (who will then presumably charge a fee for the cat’s release)? According to this article TAMS claim that if one knows the owner of the trapped cat, the feline must be “released” .. anyone able to confirm / clarify? http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/vigilante-threat-to-roaming-cats-upsets-the-neighbours-20130819-2s5w9.html

It costs $100 to surrender a cat to the RSPCA ACT and I assume releasing one may attract a similar fee to adopting a cat. If you were in the business of trapping cats and taking them to the RSPCA you’d want to be loaded.

BerraCitizen said :

Restricting cats that have lived their whole life with access to the outdoors is the equivalent of caging wild birds. My cats are indoor / outdoor cats and I wouldn’t have bought them if I knew that they would be one day restricted to being indoor cats. The thought of full containment in Canberra is ridiculous. I have no issue in suburbs that border sensitive nature areas. If they are going to do it in full across Canberra, I’d prefer it only applies to cats obtained from a certain date onward. Cats are like any other animal that likes to stretch their legs.

Dogs aren’t allowed to wander freely because A) I’ve never heard of a cat that has killed a child nor seriously injured a human. Deaths or serious injury from dogs has happened numerous times in Oz. B) My cats aren’t going to leave a hot stinking t*rd in the middle of your lawn.

Comparing cats and dogs is stupid in this regard. We all know cats are more independent than dogs and have more of a free spirit. This comes with pros and cons depending on your view. I personally like both cats and dogs. Our family chose cats because we live a busy lifestyle and wanted pets with less maintenance i.e. you don’t have to walk a cat.

+1

wildturkeycanoe6:44 pm 07 Apr 15

Name one other domesticated pet apart from cats that is allowed to wander about freely into other people’s backyards, kill anything it can fit into its mouth and whose owner sees it as an affront when asked to control their animal. I doubt you’ll find one. Dogs, birds, fish, guinea pigs, rabbits, horses, snakes, lizards, llamas, ferrets and pretty much anything else will generally be controlled by the use of containment – fences, gates, cages and aquariums. There are rules relating to this containment and guidelines for the control of the animal when outside its own enclosure.
What makes cats any different? Why are their owners SO upset that they have to change to conform to the law? Cats and cat owners are not special, they simply need to get over themselves and comply with the rules.

Like you John, I have owned cats all my life. Up until 4 years or so ago they had always been able to roam free. At that point, we had one cat accidentally get run over and another was mauled by a dog which died in the days after against the best treatment possible. The pain I/we went through was unbelievable. The loss of a loved one, human or otherwise is the absolute worst. For this reason alone, its worth having cat enclosures. We owe it to them, for their security.

Cute cats John. As a keeper of 3 moggies and 1 doggie myself I have mixed feelings about this. I can certainly understand the logic behind it but it just seems like you’d never be able to enforce it properly.

“A cat from a responsible owner does (in my limited experience) way less any damage to wildlife than some people say, and hardly annoys anyone else” are not sufficient justifications for allowing a cat to roam.

Further, this article contains zero reasons justify why cats SHOULD be allowed to roam. IE, I hear no detrimental effects from the forced containment of cats.

If by “a couple of streets bordering Nature Reserves” you (John) mean that no-one who lives within, say, 250m of a Nature Reserve should be allowed to let their cat roam, then I’d call that a good idea. Of course, that could cover as much as a quarter of all canberra residential properties given the number of reserves we have.

Genie – None of those animals have any bearing on whether cats should be contained or not. (IMO – natives visiting? Fine. Ferals? Kill them all.)

Out of curiousity: What if someone set up a cat trap (cage, no harm to cat) on their own property, and delivered any cats caught to the RSPCA (who will then presumably charge a fee for the cat’s release)? According to this article TAMS claim that if one knows the owner of the trapped cat, the feline must be “released” .. anyone able to confirm / clarify? http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/vigilante-threat-to-roaming-cats-upsets-the-neighbours-20130819-2s5w9.html

Roksteddy said :

BerraCitizen said :

If they are going to do it in full across Canberra, I’d prefer it only applies to cats obtained from a certain date onward.

That’s the idea. It is proposed to be phased in over a long period of time so people acquiring cats know what the conditions will be.

We also need to ramp up the trapping and destruction of feral cats.

I am the current caretaker for a rescue cat which had both his hind legs broken as a kitten. He can’t jump, and prefers to move slowly because the geometry of his rear suspension is obviously giving him trouble. He spends most of the time sleeping or moving from lap to lap.

Yet this desexed, chipped, vaccinated, disabled, “lazy” cat has brought trophy kills home to previous families.

So before you go making claims about the ranging and hunting habits of your dear moggie, it would help if you inderstood how cats actually worked.

BerraCitizen said :

If they are going to do it in full across Canberra, I’d prefer it only applies to cats obtained from a certain date onward.

That’s the idea. It is proposed to be phased in over a long period of time so people acquiring cats know what the conditions will be.

A few people were irresponsible with fireworks. Ban fireworks.

A few people are irresponsible with cats. Contain cats.

Goes both ways, John.

FrankReynolds12:49 pm 07 Apr 15

BerraCitizen said :

Restricting cats that have lived their whole life with access to the outdoors is the equivalent of caging wild birds. My cats are indoor / outdoor cats and I wouldn’t have bought them if I knew that they would be one day restricted to being indoor cats.

This is a valid concern, however it is only a concern for a single (cat) generation. If there is a long-term, staged roll out, people will have ample opportunity to not buy cats knowing that their house will fall into a containment area in the future. Moreover, if all new houses (or developments) are considered to fall into containment areas, you can make the choice of not buying in that area.
Of course, this requires long-term vision beyond the single election cycle norm.

FrankReynolds12:45 pm 07 Apr 15

John you have opened the proverbial can of worms on this one. Have a look here to see a fairly lengthy exchange on the matter from last year: http://the-riotact.com/canberras-cats-facing-containment/135274

I’m once again concerned by personal observations stating that “[t]he old girl was way behind the (in my view, somewhat suss) kill rate of native animals and birds.” To introduce another hyperbolic debate to the current one, this is akin to climate change denialists stating that it’s all fiction because in their opinion, it doesn’t feel any warmer.

Last year I posted a series of links to peer-review research that point to active hunting in domestic cats, even when they do not eat the prey for food, and even when they don’t bring it home as a trophy.
To say that only suburbs that border nature reserves should be containment areas is short sighted. It is well known in cities like Canberra that it is not unusual to have animals such as blue tongue lizards wandering backyards of suburbia (at least, it never used to be unusual). De-sexing is not the sole answer, as domestic cats will still hunt, even if not feral.

While I am obviously for containment, here is an article discussing other possibilities: http://theconversation.com/ferals-strays-pets-how-to-control-the-cats-that-are-eating-our-wildlife-31182

BerraCitizen12:23 pm 07 Apr 15

Restricting cats that have lived their whole life with access to the outdoors is the equivalent of caging wild birds. My cats are indoor / outdoor cats and I wouldn’t have bought them if I knew that they would be one day restricted to being indoor cats. The thought of full containment in Canberra is ridiculous. I have no issue in suburbs that border sensitive nature areas. If they are going to do it in full across Canberra, I’d prefer it only applies to cats obtained from a certain date onward. Cats are like any other animal that likes to stretch their legs.

Dogs aren’t allowed to wander freely because A) I’ve never heard of a cat that has killed a child nor seriously injured a human. Deaths or serious injury from dogs has happened numerous times in Oz. B) My cats aren’t going to leave a hot stinking t*rd in the middle of your lawn.

Comparing cats and dogs is stupid in this regard. We all know cats are more independent than dogs and have more of a free spirit. This comes with pros and cons depending on your view. I personally like both cats and dogs. Our family chose cats because we live a busy lifestyle and wanted pets with less maintenance i.e. you don’t have to walk a cat.

I don’t like it when other animals take a dump in my yard either.. But the ACT Government wont lock up the kangaroos, foxes and possums that I have on my property most nights.

What about those foxes that just LOVE to get into people yards and eat up all their chooks ?

Or I was out at Yass on the weekend where the farm owners mentioned they have eagles in the area, so they have to make sure their puppies and small animals are watched at all times. They’ve in fact seen hares scooped up on many occasions and previously lost pet rabbits and puppies in the past.

Cats aren’t the only “wild” creature killing wildlife.

If you really care about your cats, why aren’t you considering that indoor cats typically have healthier lives than outdoor cats? (see e.g. http://adelaidevet.com.au/pet-library/how-long-do-cats-live-ageing-and-your-feline ) I don’t currently own cats, but I would like to in the future. As part of that ownership I would much prefer being able to see my beloved pet at all times rather than letting it run loose where who knows what could happen to it (let alone missing out on the chance to interact with it, which for me is the whole point of owning a cat). If desexed domesticated cats are so manageable, then keeping them indoors shouldn’t be a problem.

Besides, with all the irrational cat phobia that these debates usually provoke, I’d also like to make sure that my cat is safe from being traumatised by sadists.

Not to mention all of the cats that go feral and create populations of feral cats, I saw a massive one run straight up the Isaacs Ridge.

For every responsible cat owner, there are 4 that just don’t care.

There are posts all over Canberran Community pages offering cats for free as someones moggy has spawned a litter of more of them.

If I had my way they would go the way of the plastic bag. Just buy a toy Poodle or some other yap yap dog if you really must have a small furry thing that converts food into poo.

Invasive pest species. No rightful place in Australia.

Owning a cat in a semi-rural setting like Canberra should be a crime

Lock em up or put em down

This is a tough one… I have owned cats and I’ve loved them and been a very responsible cat owner.

Unfortunately, there will always be people out there who have had bad experiences with cats and they will forever be tainted by those bad experiences.

Just because a cat ate your bird or attacked your bunny rabbit, doesn’t mean that all cats are going to do this. My 1st cat was a fat, lazy ball of butter and my other cat was a sweet, timid rescue cat who lay in the sun and never left our backyard. Both of them were always inside at night. I think that’s the main problem with cat owners. They shouldn’t be allowed outside at night.

I believe it is the owners fault, not the cats.

I now have a dog and no cats… And when we go for walks, there is always some idiot with their dog not on a lead and we either have to avoid it or deal with the consequences of it bounding toward us for whatever reason.

Again, the owners fault, not the animal.

Kalfour said :

I have had pets killed by cats. Not feral cats- domestic ones.

Likewise. I had two pet birds killed by our next-door neighbour’s cat, inside our house. On two occasions the cat got inside unnoticed, and each time, killed one of our birds. Neighbourhood cats have also caused damage to my property, and currently, someone has established a toilet in my front yard.

I’m with Roksteddy, Kalfour and Mysteryman – if you want a cat, fine – but keep it at your place. I don’t want it at mine.

Roksteddy said :

My dog isn’t allowed to wander freely into your backyard. Why should your cat be allowed into mine?
I don’t want it. Keep it out.

Kalfour said :

I have had pets killed by cats. Not feral cats- domestic ones.
They have come into my yard and attacked my aviary birds and free roaming poultry. A couple of times they have caused serious injury, and twice they have killed my pets.
A friend of mine has a cat who once brought home a dead guinea pig.
I own guinea pigs, and would like to let them free roam by day and only be locked up at night. But I can’t, because they are vulnerable to cats. So they only leave the hutch under supervision. Why should my pets, that are confined to my yard, have to suffer because of cat owner self-entitlement?
And your cat probably killed a lot of things that you never saw.
There are definitely protected species of birds and lizards around Erindale.
I regularly keep a cat trap. If I catch a cat, feral or domestic, I take it to the RSPCA where the owner has to pay a fine to collect it.
I don’t want them in my yard and I shouldn’t have to.

That should answer you question, John.

I don’t want your cats, or anyone else’s, in my yard. Ever. I don’t want them interfering with the pets I keep, or the activities I undertake in my yard (gardening, for instance). I also won’t take responsibility for any danger that should befall them if they make their way uninvited onto my property.

They should never leave your property without supervision.

John, unless you put a tracker on those cats over several nights you have no way of knowing how far they roam at night. Also, cats don’t always bring their kill back to you as a pressie. Unless you can prove to yourself that you aren’t just trusting your darlings not to roadm, you should really contain them at night AND double-bell them during the day.

creative_canberran7:04 pm 06 Apr 15

Hi John, I want to congratulate you on entering a new stage of your life. Many a once important person has entered the angry letter writing stage of life, cobbling together some facts in a stream of consciousness to express their outrage at some perceived wrong while trying to stay relevant.

Your opinion is irresponsible, offers no evidence other than personal anecdotes and demonstrates little knowledge of cat behaviour. Worse though, you demonstrate a callous disregard for native wildlife. You remind me of the white man who first saw Aborigines, dismissed their presence, then set about civilising them, because he knows best. To hell with the natural order.

I have had pets killed by cats. Not feral cats- domestic ones.
They have come into my yard and attacked my aviary birds and free roaming poultry. A couple of times they have caused serious injury, and twice they have killed my pets.
A friend of mine has a cat who once brought home a dead guinea pig.
I own guinea pigs, and would like to let them free roam by day and only be locked up at night. But I can’t, because they are vulnerable to cats. So they only leave the hutch under supervision. Why should my pets, that are confined to my yard, have to suffer because of cat owner self-entitlement?
And your cat probably killed a lot of things that you never saw.
There are definitely protected species of birds and lizards around Erindale.
I regularly keep a cat trap. If I catch a cat, feral or domestic, I take it to the RSPCA where the owner has to pay a fine to collect it.
I don’t want them in my yard and I shouldn’t have to.

My dog isn’t allowed to wander freely into your backyard. Why should your cat be allowed into mine?
I don’t want it. Keep it out.

John, your argument, as always, is full of holes.
How do you know your cats never strayed further than your neighbours? How did you know where they were while you were at work? Were you radiotracking them? And while they were out of your sight, how do you know they weren’t killing? Just because they didnt bring prey home doesn’t mean that they didn’t hunt. You yourself admit they killed silvereyes. Why are they unimportant?
What you say about pet owners generally and about dogs is true, but that doesnt exclude the need for cat management.

HiddenDragon5:33 pm 06 Apr 15

I’m not a cat owner, but I’m with you on this one, John.

It’s fairly obvious that the push is on, and there’s a co-ordinated media and political campaign underway – I suppose it’s too much to hope that enough (to count) Canberrans will decide they’ve had it with the relentless march of interfering political correctness and draw a line in the sand (or perhaps that should be in the kitty litter) on this one.

While I’m being provocative, the coverage of the claimed kill rate of cats has caused me to wonder, from time time, about the ecological impact of possums – I believe they are not strictly herbivore and will go after smaller animals and birds.

Your cats only killed the odd sparrow or mouse? Gee that’s okay then, if they they kill sometimes! and those are the kills you know about because you wouldn’t have a clue what it did while wondering the neighbourhood…

You can do all the registering, microchipping and desexing.. Doesn’t make a difference when you open the door and wave goodbye as they run to roam the street.. You have no control as to whether they’re killing birds or lizards, fighting with other cats or taking a dump in their backyard. You have no control at that point.

No other pet is allowed to run free in the neighbourhood, especially ones that have killing tendencies. Cats should be no different. Lock them up like all other pets, inside or have a cat run in the backyard.

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