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Traffic Infringement Notice – can the evidence be changed?

By Grumpy Old Fart 20 August 2011 75

Recently Mrs GOF received a traffic infringement notice (TIN) for allegedly driving through a stop sign. When I checked the issued ticket and the street on which the offence is alleged to occur I discovered that no stop sign existed. I submitted a request for the withdrawal of the TIN on the grounds that the offence could not have occurred as recorded as there is no stop sign on the street that was named. The letter was submitted and I thought that would be the end of the matter.

A delegate of the Chief Police Officer responded and advised me that the TIN had been withdrawn and lo and behold a new ticket was issued with what he called ‘the correct information’. I thought the correct information was what was issued the first time! (How many versions of events are they allowed)

I would ask the collective of the RiotACT has anyone had a similar experience in terms of a TIN being issued and then withdrawn after a submission and a new TIN issued for the same offence but at a different location? Is it legal for this to be done?

I would have thought that a TIN was a statement of evidence from the Police Officer issuing the notice at the time of the alleged offence so how can the evidence be changed? To me it would seem the same as a Police Officer giving evidence and when the evidence is given and the credibility questioned the facts are changed which to me does not seem right nor I believe would be accepted before a court.

I am also concerned that the actions of changing evidence in relation to the TIN was allowed to occur by a person who is a delegate of the Chief Police Officer as well as the original Police Officer who is now putting forward a different version of events.

I maybe wrong as is often the case or do not understand the processes of the AFP but it would seem that the AFP is allowed to change their evidence which I thought was illegal. Can anyone shed any light on whether I am overreacting or looking at this from the wrong perspective.

I will be taking the matter to the Ombudsman as I think it is very wrong.

What’s Your opinion?


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75 Responses to
Traffic Infringement Notice – can the evidence be changed?
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IrishPete 8:41 pm 26 Aug 11

Although I’m confident no-one is reading this thread any more, here are some views:

somtimes there can be advantages in contesting the case in court. I contested a red-light camera photo. I’m sure it wasnt red, but the photos appear to show red light and me driving through (though the photo colour is so poor it could have been orange). Instead of wasting a day in court, at the last moment I wrote a letter to the court basically pleading guilty. Copped the fine. But no demerit points ever appeared. I consider that to have been worth the effort taken to dispute and have a Magsitrate decide the penalty.

Those of you expecting GOF to answer whether his wife was guilty are plainly just a little dim – he’s not going to state that on a public forum which could be used in evidence.

I didn’t know TINs arrive in the mail after a police stop – I assumed they would be issued on the spot.

Am I guilty of killing my wife? That’s not the issue – if the cops try to prosecute me on faked evidence there are three possible really bad outcomes:
– I am guilty but am acquitted because the faked evidence is uncovered as fake – I can never be prosecuted again, even if new evidence emerges;
– or I’m not guilty but am found guilty, or at least go through a lengthy trial and serve a period in prison (on remand or sentenced) while I fight it and hopefully eventually win and the system has to pay me compensation, and a few cops are demoted or fired, maybe even jailed themselves;
– and the real perpetrator goes free to do it again.
The only possible good outcome is that I am guilty and serve my penalty, but those clever cops are going to get it wrong sometime, and the other outcomes will occur then. They would do better to bide their time, keep investigating, and get a conviction the right way.

IP

Tooks 8:03 am 24 Aug 11

obamabinladen said :

Tooks if the stupid officer can’t correctly write down a street name then what makes you think he will be a reliable witness in court? I’m impartial in this argument my point is that police need to get it right otherwise people are going to get off more serious offences. Me thinks the cops were lucky this time because MRS GOF advised them of the mistake and a new TIN was issued. My Mongaloid comment goes out to the people who blindly say that MRS GOF should pay the fine if a cop stuffs up and there is a possibility she can get off the fine then she should!!! Tooks u a dog sorry i mean cop?

No no, you must have misread my post. I said STOP embarrassing yourself, not KEEP embarrassing yourself. They are two different words.

Silverline 12:19 am 24 Aug 11

I had a similiar incident happen to me once but I think my Mr Plod was too busy smoking behind the toilets when they did maths. My TIN made me 3 years older on my date of birth, I was driving a green car when it was blue (okay it was at night) AND the streets were all wrong. When I wrote to them I advised them they were wrong on many things so they issued me with a new fine and even then that was wrong. I went to court and just before I was due in the DPP said that they have withdrawn my case!!!

Sometimes its worth taking the day off work. Save your cash, demerit points & insurance premium going up!

lukpea 1:31 pm 23 Aug 11

Mate, my advice would be if there is a next time 😛 When you write a letter to the CPO or ORS do not give too much away, ask for the matter to be withdrawn, and if not, elect to go to court. “The elemet of suprise”, when @ court bring the mistake to the attention of the Magistrate who may or may not dismiss the matter based on that mistake….

It is quite amusing, usually the smug highway jockeys dont look so smug…. Dont feel bad either, the vast majority of uniformed persons who Issue TIN’s & PIN’s are frustrated that they were not intelligent enough to make detective 🙂

Innovation 9:29 pm 22 Aug 11

I was rear ended by an ambulance once on their way to an emergency. I had pulled over to the side of a three lane road and stopped to let the ambulance past and avoid clogging up the upcoming T intersection. Unfortunately the ambulance driver must have thought it was quicker not to go around me.

Witnesses stopped and commented on how the driver had nearly cleaned them up to. I thought it was so cut and dry I didn’t even bother to get their details. It took around 6 months (and long after my insurance company had given up) to get the ACT Government to agree that the accident was their fault.

Becw 8:57 pm 22 Aug 11

Hey, I had a similar thing happen to me. I was hit by an action Bus last yr and I got a letter in the mail with a $256 fine and 4 points. The ticket and statement of facts said that both me and the driver said I had pulled out in front of the bus giving it no time to stop and it hit me. First thing is, I did not say that and 2nd thing is, I was already driving on the road, so i couldnt have pulled off the side of the road. It also says there were witnesses saying that. The only witnesses (appart from my friends who saw it) was the bus driver and hgh school kids. They said they had also viewed video footage and it showed that I had pulled off the side of the road. 6 months later I got a new version of facts that said they hadnt view the footage yet. So therefore they are contradicting themselves.

Weird huh?? I think it is basically the AFP and the goverment trying to scam money out of people. since then, I havent trusted the AFP. If you believe you are right, stick by it, because most likely you are right. They think they are bigger than the rest of us and dont think we will go to court and fight it! Guess what? I am.

obamabinladen 3:35 pm 22 Aug 11

Tooks if the stupid officer can’t correctly write down a street name then what makes you think he will be a reliable witness in court? I’m impartial in this argument my point is that police need to get it right otherwise people are going to get off more serious offences. Me thinks the cops were lucky this time because MRS GOF advised them of the mistake and a new TIN was issued. My Mongaloid comment goes out to the people who blindly say that MRS GOF should pay the fine if a cop stuffs up and there is a possibility she can get off the fine then she should!!! Tooks u a dog sorry i mean cop?

Skyring 2:15 pm 22 Aug 11

Henry82 said :

Skyring said :

For example. An ambulance with lights flashing, or a police vehicle speeding to a destination, or a driver suddenly seized by a medical condition..

Well Mrs GOF isnt in a police or ambulance vehicle. If she has a medical condition, she should have explained that to the police on the spot, and surrendered her license until she has had enough medical checks and doctors approval to continue driving. Unfortunatly, you cant just drive through redlights and stop signs yelling “i have a medical condition” and get away scot free.

Um. Yes you can.

Just try it.

But that’s OK. I heard what you said and know what you meant. The three examples I gave above were not intended to be exhaustive, and I’m kinda surprised you took them that way. There are better ways to get legal knowledge, just quietly, than from random participants on this website.

Learn the rules of the game and play to win. People go through stop signs all the time and get away with it. I can remember one instance where I rolled through four stop signs, with a police car following, and was not charged or fined. They did pull me over and have a word to me, but they didn’t think it was a big deal.

Henry82 12:31 pm 22 Aug 11

Skyring said :

For example. An ambulance with lights flashing, or a police vehicle speeding to a destination, or a driver suddenly seized by a medical condition..

Well Mrs GOF isnt in a police or ambulance vehicle. If she has a medical condition, she should have explained that to the police on the spot, and surrendered her license until she has had enough medical checks and doctors approval to continue driving. Unfortunatly, you cant just drive through redlights and stop signs yelling “i have a medical condition” and get away scot free.

At the start of the thread i sided with OP, now with all these BS excuses and arguments, all you’re doing is encouraging him to waste police time. She went through the stop sign, she got caught red handed, pay the ticket, she deserves it.

Skyring 12:15 pm 22 Aug 11

carnardly said :

There was a stop sign. Drivers are meant to stop – not dribble on through under 10 kmph.

That’s not an absolute. The law allows drivers to proceed through a stop sign without stopping under certain circumstances, both within the legislation and under common law.

For example. An ambulance with lights flashing, or a police vehicle speeding to a destination, or a driver suddenly seized by a medical condition.

Furthermore, the prosecution is required to prove that an offence occurred “beyond reasonable doubt”. If the location of the alleged offence is unclear, that’s reasonable doubt right there.

Tooks 12:09 pm 22 Aug 11

obamabinladen said :

Delish, You are missing the point in our justice system to get a conviction you need evidence are you following me??? If the evidence is wrong or does not prove the guilt of the person in question then the case will be dismissed! The cop stuffed up and now Mrs Gof should avoid a fine. Whether she committed the alleged offence only mrs GOF will know do you now understand??? NO EVIDENCE NO CHARGE cant make it simpler than that Delish!

The evidence, retard, is the cop/s witnessing the driver roll through a stop sign. If it goes to court, the evidence will be the statement of facts, police statements, and possibly photos of the intersection. Stop embarrassing yourself any further as you are absolutely clueless when it comes to this.

Tooks 12:05 pm 22 Aug 11

What is wrong with the majority of people here? Whether the gal ran the stop sign or not is beside the point you mongaloids!!! This issue is about the police process. The TIN is the evidence, the evidence is obviously wrong, therefore the matter should be dismissed.

The only mongoloid here is you. The TIN with the error was WITHDRAWN. The correct TIN is presumably correct. You have no idea of what you’re talking about and from what you’ve written, have never seen the inside of a court room.

Delish 11:42 am 22 Aug 11

How – did the cop stuff up?

It still has not been cleared whether she drove through the intersection without stopping as Mr GOF said that was irrelevant…?

obamabinladen 11:20 am 22 Aug 11

Delish, You are missing the point in our justice system to get a conviction you need evidence are you following me??? If the evidence is wrong or does not prove the guilt of the person in question then the case will be dismissed! The cop stuffed up and now Mrs Gof should avoid a fine. Whether she committed the alleged offence only mrs GOF will know do you now understand??? NO EVIDENCE NO CHARGE cant make it simpler than that Delish!

Delish 11:04 am 22 Aug 11

Oh right this is what my partner means by it is a ‘nanny’ state. I imagine that You and Mrs GOF have had your licenses for a while? You are not ‘P’ Platers’… right?

Well more then likely when you leave your state of ACT you are under the guise and rules of that state and their ‘up keep of the road and signage’. When you are in there states especially an old back NSW are there always signage there? No but you use your ‘commonsense’ that you are at a intersection and that you need to either ‘stop’ or ‘give away’.

I believe that the roads and signage here are good but there still are some roads that common sense needs to prevail. Maybe it was a case of that – the common sense was not there (ie situational awareness) rather then actual signage?

Once again ask Mrs GOF as I believe she was on the mobile, blistering through an intersection and speeding. The stop sign fine was the lesser of all three and what she could talk her way out of!

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