10 January 2007

Vicki Dunne stands up for the P-platers

| johnboy
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Wow!

Vicki Dunne has gone to town in lambasting the recent hysterical attacks on young drivers.

“None of this has been thought through. It seems politicians and groups like the NRMA are in a race to see who can be the most hard-line in their attacks on our children.

“The response of some politicians to any complex social problem is to ramp up the punishments.

“Has anyone asked themselves what the likely reaction will be to a flashing blue light on the part of a young driver who suddenly realises he’s driving 5kph over the limit, and therefore facing the loss of his licence, perhaps his job, and certainly a huge slab of self-esteem? Do we want more car chases and probably MORE deaths?

The whole thing is well worth reading especially in the context of her deputy leader’s statements.

Vicki Dunne, I salute you!

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How about lawas are introduced, this is more aimes at New south wales though as they have made a start.

Stick with first year P’s get no chances, they shouldn’t be speeding or anything like that, its a time to learn on the road by yourself.
Now, in the next 2 years of being on your provisional licence you get 1 strike, then you lose it. That means in 2 years, if you do for some reason go a few km’s over the speed limit, you wont lose you licence, but it makes you prepared for next time.

I think the driver training is a joke as to how easy it was to get my licence, although my driving instructor was great, she made sure I knew things well, and she would not let me go until I knew things perfectally. I would say she had a big impact on how I behave on the roads now, which I would say is more safely than other P platers that I know.

vg, is it illegal to have earphones in while driving?

also, how much consideration do the police give when giving a speeding fine. such as, would you get away with 83km/h in a 80km/h zone?

I agree with you there, vg.

“One more observant P plater is a good fucking start”

…as is removing people from the road who continually lose their licence from points deductions

Do you think it would have been fair to lose your licence over that one point?

On a related note, correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t the purpose of demerit points to ensure the wealthy had a deterrent?

(I vaguely recall 12 years ago seeing a ferrari owner asked why he had a car that went so fast when the speed limit was 110 and he explained to the naive young journo “sweetheart, if you can afford a car like this you can afford a speeding fine).

In which case surely the least experienced and youngest drivers would be the ones most chastened by a fine?

So surely there’s a case for giving young drivers more demerit points than the rest of the community?

A whole 3 days of driving logs! Gee whiz. Of course participants on the course would never just make it up.

I wasn’t saying “oh look at me I am saying this is a 100% foolproof plan which will mean no P plater deaths, or road deaths ever”. If ONE P plater becomes more observant, that is one better driver on the road. It could be that P plater who, through lack of observation, runs off the road and kills you, or a member of your family, or one of your friends.

One more observant P plater is a good fucking start.

annd I’ll add to that in the last 20 years I’ve lost 1 point and owned a number of high powered cars (and driven on plenty of open roads). And I don’t get out of tickets because of my job. The one point I did lost was for 68 in 60 zone on a Canberra speed camera

A whole 3 days of driving logs! Gee whiz. Of course participants on the course would never just make it up.

I have lost count of the number of young drivers I have encountered who have done something stupid and, when I ask them where their P’s are, they tell me they have just done the P off course.

“I admit ive lost my licence a few times due to points”

Most people don’t lose theirs once. I’m thinking maybe you’re not the best example to be keeping tabs for them

99% of them just do it to get some extra points

P off is a joke

The course isn’t a joke. The removal of P’s is.

One of my friend’s is attending P Off soon, and I was driving with him as he was gathering the ideas for his log book (you must keep a log for 3 days of your driving and other cars on the road before you can attend the course). Keeping tabs for him, comments such as “I’ll stay away from that wanker talking on the mobile” and “that guy up ahead is braking randomly” were plentiful. Surely if every P plater was even half as observant as this (my friend isn’t the most observant driver either) we’d see a great increase in general road awareness?
Food for thought.

…and the short period I had a motorbike made me a better driver, plus a lot of work training that showed how the road extended more than 10m past the end of your bonnet

“its a privilege to drive not a rite.”

I think the phrase being looked for is that is should be considered a priviledge to have a licence., not a God given right. Prove yourself worthy of a licence through something a bit more rigorous than the testing we have now. An actual training program with some real driving skills being taught prior to any testing would be good, not a couple of hours next to your nearest available family member.

P off is a joke

TrapperKeeper3:52 pm 11 Jan 07

To do the P’off course you should have to be on full points(Unless thats the way it is already?) Most of the people doing it do it so they can get away with more offences.

Well, maybe we can learn something from China. Road deaths in 2006 down by 9.5%. That’s a paltry 89,455 – according to the ABC last week…

Having been a rev head from year dot and owning every thing from 500hp subaru’s, V8’s, rotaries, 6’s and a 911 GT3 I would say that they are on the right track for reducing P plater deaths but and this is a big but. I admit ive lost my licence a few times due to points mainly speeding on aussie empty open roads. Ive had no accidents accept while rally driving on dirt. Ive driven many thousands of kms LHD in Europe on unlimited roads in germany and 130km speed limited roads in France. The fact is its media hysteria. Also Who the fuck made up the stupid comment ” its a privilege to drive not a rite.” My question is why is this and who decided it was a privilege. For fuck sake the rate of deaths on our roads is fuck all. The NT has just reduced its unlimited roads to 130km/hr Id like to be pointed to the fact that the deaths of NT roads were directly attributable to unlimited speed. And yes stiff shit im not politically correct.

FWIW, Police cars were very visible on Northbourne Ave towards EPIC, and even into Gungahlin, all through Summernats. Hadn’t seen that many all year.

Ahh my favourite, the uber-whinger!

A whinger who whinges about whinging.

And apparently someone holds a gun to your head and forces you to view websites you don’t like!

talk some sense11:37 pm 10 Jan 07

Are you people kidding? Joking about banning young men, men, older people from driving as a sarcastic response to the p-plate laws.

Yes p-platers aren’t the only ones dying on our roads. But don’t you think that the older people who are dying were once p-platers who flaunted laws and were lucky to survive this long?

Perhaps these laws will cause a generational change in perceptions, and by targeting the problem with our new drivers, breed better drivers so that there are less people dying across all age groups?

Instead of sitting back ridiculing these decisions with your razor-sharp sarcasm (and thinking you’re clever), try some constructive criticism.

I’ve never seen such a bitchy site where people offer so much criticism and sarcasm, but so little solutions.

talk some sense11:33 pm 10 Jan 07

Are you people kidding? Joking about banning young men, men, older people from driving as a sarcastic response to the p-plate laws.

They’ve also started showing ad’s as from today about police targeting P Plater speeding. so those fully licensed drivers who sit on our slow butt’s beeping there horn at us have no worries about being pulled over.

I live in sydney (though canberra born and bred) this is obviously a national problem so my main problem is more about the reforms they published in the daily telegraph today but more than likely they will try and enforce the same rules nationally.

Agreed Publius. I think I saw 2 speed cameras (the use of which I’m not a big supporter of anyway, AFAICT they’re mainly setup on wide, straight sections of road for revenue raising and nothing much in the way of actual road *safety*) and nothing else for the whole holiday break.

Not once did I get breath tested or stopped to see if my vehicle (a fairly noisy old V8 Berlina) was roadworthy/unregistered (and yes, I did a _shitload_ of driving round the city over the period, including Christmas Eve, Christmas+Boxing Day, New Years Eve and New Years Day – both during daylight and night-time hours, between Tuggeranong, Woden, Belco, inner north areas like Dickson/Ainslie, and the city centre itself) So it’s nothing to do with Summernats as far as I can tell, they just don’t have enough manpower at _any_ time of the year.

More rules won’t make a shit of difference if there’s no police to enforce them. This is precisely why I never wore my ‘P’ plates as a teenager. Got pulled for it once (well, they were checking to see if the car was stolen then saw my ‘P’ license) but I got off with a warning anyway, as there was confusion as to when the Ps were legally allowed to be removed.

I have no problem with the comments by Mrs Burke and Mrs Dunne – it shows there are a number of facets to this issue. Evans from the NRMA has come up with a few suggestions, built around research. However, that would serve to toughen existing conditions for p platers. But the key question is do we need new laws/rules? We would appear to need more police in cars – on patrol – ie “visible” in Canberra. I have not seen a car over this holiday break while driving. No doubt those on duty are out over at Summernats. The police presence in Canberra is a joke.

I’m 23 and just obtained my Ps a few months ago after being on my Ls for 3 years in which i clocked up over 200 hours for my log book. i like to think i did the right thing by waiting till i was extremely confident to obtain my Ps as there will never be just me in my car. i also have a young child with another on the way as well as a partner who is unable to drive for atleast another year due to injury which makes me the primary drivr in my household. Though there are alot of idiots on the road, P platers and Fully Licensed, y should Older P platers and the Like be penalised for doing the right thing. Reforms will never be good enough for anyone.

darkladywolf3:46 pm 10 Jan 07

One point that I don’t know how to address is how those who do display their plates (both L’s and P’s) are often ‘targets’.

I’ve been the ‘licenced driver’ for quite a few friends on L’s and been in many P plater cars too. The agression, rudeness and stupidity that I’ve seen is far worse than I’ve experienced having a full license.

That can lead to everything from nervousness to anger in the L or P plater and sends them all the wrong lessons.

i reckon that all prospective car drivers should spend a year on a motorcycle before being able to gain a licence for 2 tons of steel. i’m quite sure it would weed out the idiots…..

VYBerlinaV8_now with_added_grunt2:40 pm 10 Jan 07

Youngsters will always try to find out where the limits of their cars are (at least the boys all do). If I had my current V8 when I was 17 I doubt I’d be here to talk about it. I think we should set stringent restrictions on power to weight ratios for young drivers (not this 125kW per tonne crap like Victoria), so at least when they lose it it all happens at a much lower speed. To give an example, a kid borrowing dad’s standard Holden V8 can easily get to over 200km/h in about 30 seconds or so, and feel very safe and stable until you get to the limit of its dynamic capabilities, at which point its all too late. It’s just too easy to overcook it when you aren’t experienced with fast cars.

Deadmandrinking2:28 pm 10 Jan 07

Why is every liberal capable of logical thought either in state government or the federal back-bench?

I would have to agree with you there, increase the age, P platers have no passengers unless they are their parents(dont know how you police that but its worth a try) and P Platers shouldnt be able to drive a car more than 4 cylinders, anything above that they seem to not be able to handle! Mind you some adults are in that category as well!

Is it out of the question to increase the eligible age for L and P plates due to the high fatality rate involved with giving it to somebody so young ?

Also, having watched a roundup of accident footage over the Christmas Black period, how many high-performance cars were there!

Gone are the days of P platers putting around in 1.3litre Nissan Sunny, nowdays they are in hotted up little rockets strapped to 4 wheels. I think a L or a P plater should not be allowed to own their vehicle unless they are over the minimum age bracket (aka adult learners). In addition to being a cool idea, a higher sense of responsibility – not getting up to tomfoolery Mum/Dad’s car on account of if you crash you’re in a much bigger world of hurt would be enforceable.

But then again, the flipside is that these kids that were roadkill this Christmas break were probably brought those vehicles by aforementioned supposedly responsible parents.

Get rid of this ‘P Off’ course. You wear your P’s for the entire probationary period. I’ve lost count of the number of kids I’ve dealt with for driving stupidity who’ve just finished the said course.

So are you saying that P-platers drive differently because they are no longer wearing their P’s? Because I agree with wearing P Plates for the entire Provisional license period. I’m a P-plater, and I definetly plan to do P Off soon, however I would still wear my P’s in certain situations. The whole idea of wearing P plates is to show other drivers that you do not have much experience, and how can you do that if you aren’t displaying that?

Balance balance balance.
I know where you’re coming from VG, but you are talking about going too far. Next step – jail for chewing gum – hello Singapore.
JB’s spot on – let’s see adequate resourcing to enforce the laws that are already there – ’cause there sure don’t seem to be much of that happening in ACT. Most visible-police-free place I’ve every lived in.

Was listening to Hack (JJJ) in the car pre-Christmas and they had a boffin on from somewhere important sounding. His field of expertise was kids killing themselves in cars both in Oz and internationally.

He made some interesting observations about what programs had been implemented overseas and what had worked. I can’t recall all the detail, and the Hack website doesn’t help, but his main points were:

. The current hysteria was unwarranted – trends for kids dying in car accidents have been downward for a number of years,
. Overseas programs that included curfews, driver training courses (both school and post-school),etc had had little to no effect on death rates, and
. The only program that had shown a significant effect was limiting the number of passengers that a P-Plater was allowed to carry.

Distraction, showing off appeared to be the number one factor.

Did anyone catch this program and note who the boffin was or where his research was located?

When I did the P-Off course one or two ppl were there because they had no points left, this, and those who attend because they have only 1 point left, should be banned.

darkladywolf11:48 am 10 Jan 07

Lots of good thoughts here, Part of this problem is the need to actually police the laws we have. And to actually make being caught a worthwhile lesson.

The first requires more police (Duh). The second requires that Judges have options ranging from ‘slap on the wrist’ through ‘send them to a training course’ right through to ‘take away licence and impound car’. It also requires Judges to use options appropriately.

Just slapping punishments on people doesn’t seem to do much, I’ve noticed. But perhaps that’s because of how light a lot of those punishments are.

Shouldn’t we also be rewarding people. however? If all the above is done (appropriate laws, appropiate policing, appropriate sentencing), and someone makes it through their ‘P’ years without an infraction, why not give them a slightly cheaper license, or something similar?

Certainly that last idea needs a lot of work; but I’m sure you can see the direction it’s heading.

I’m living in a fantasy land, aren’t I?

I think real enforcement of the rules we’ve got would help a lot more than inventing new ones that aren’t enforced either, or imposing a life wrecking penalty on the one poor schmuck who gets caught out of thousands.

I don’t think I ever got pulled over, questioned, breathalysed, or saw a cash cow, in the entire time on my P’s. – Andy

I have to say, I’m on my P licence for most of this year until I turn 20. But I too have only been breathalysed once, that was 2 years ago in one of those police set ups.

I don’t see many police around anymore, but I don’t hold it against them, the fact that Stanhope doesn’t give them enough money isn’t their fault.

I see a speed camera van once every so often, but even then people just slow down and aren’t caught.

vg, They are decent ideas, even I felt the L test was too easy, and getting your P’s just means behaving for your driving instructor, then you can do what you like once you have them.

I have done the P off course, I did it as soon as I could. Now I went because I wanted to, most people there were there because they had 1 point left on their licence and needed more points to keep their licence.

That to me just seems stupid, I think the laws are flawed. I still believe though, the laws and restrictions are not the problem, it’s the fact that people break them!

Out of interest, talking on a mobile is already illegal, they are trying to make talking on a handsfree illegal, but just how will they police people who talk on carkits? (like myself)

Will carkits become illegal too?

And vg, is listening to your ipod or whatever illegal while driving because headphones are in your ears?

vg, I agree with you that increased consequences for these offences would help, but people might also think twice about doing those things if they thought they might actually be pulled over for it. I have seen people pulled over for mobile phone use, but never for one of the other ones listed, even in full view of a police vehicle (of course, my omnipotence is somewhat limited these days, so I’m sure it does happen).

I have always thought that a drivers licence is soemthing that should be quite hard to get, and quite easy to lose. When people value their licences more, and the penalties for driving without a licence are commensurate with the licences value, then we will get somewhere.

It is more than clear that a large % of drivers, and a hell of a lot of them are right here in Canberra, couldn’t drive a greasy stick up a dog’s bum.

Speeding is naughty, and large excesses should be dealt with harshly, but I wonder what sort of improvements in driver behaviour we’d see if:

The fine for using a mobile phone whilst in charge of a motor vehicle was increased to $1000

The fine for the following offences increased to $500:

Failing to indicate,
Driving straight through the ‘middle’ of a roundabout,
Unsafe overtaking,
Failing to give way at a sign,
Failing to stop at a light/sign,
Driving over a pedestrian xing when people are still on it

How about any convictions of what could broadly be termed ‘road rage’ result in an automatic 3 month suspension of a licence for 3 months for a 1st offence, 6 months for a 2nd, and disqualification for 2 years for a 3rd.

Get rid of this ‘P Off’ course. You wear your P’s for the entire probationary period. I’ve lost count of the number of kids I’ve dealt with for driving stupidity who’ve just finished the said course.

Once the Courts actually start making recidivist driving offenders realise the value of a licence then we may head in the right direction. A little gaol time for recidivist offenders may open people’s eyes up a little as well

I don’t think I ever got pulled over, questioned, breathalysed, or saw a cash cow, in the entire time on my P’s.

nothing encourages good driving like the real possibility you might be pulled over and asked to explain just what the hell you’re doing.

VYBerlinaV8_now with_added_grunt10:49 am 10 Jan 07

I don’t support the current measures being adopted to lower p-plate accidents, but it doesn’t take much effort to get up and have a shout without proposing any concrete alternatives (‘we need to do more’ and ‘we need to learn more’ are not a concrete alternatives).

What is really needed here is for a forum to be brought together to look dispassionately at the problem. All I keep hearing at the moment is the same emotive crapola. Where is the real driver training and education? Where is the testing that covers ALL the required skills? Where is the compliance/enforcement effort that doesn’t just blindly target ‘speeding’? There’s more to the story than this!

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