28 May 2009

We have master plans for a revolution in Canberra's Stadiums Stadia

| johnboy
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[First filed: May 26, 2009 @ 21:09]

Online at the moment there’s just a light page from Canberra Stadium and a similar one from Manuka Oval.

But what I can gather is that today the Stanhope Government jumped the shark, as all Government’s do, and turned its thoughts to colosseums.

As far as I can tell the plan is to scrap most of the stands at Manuka and convert the oval to community use with some seating.

The existing Canberra Stadium would be converted into an oval for cricket and AFL.

And then they’d build out at Bruce a new 40,000+ rectangular stadium planned to host major games feeding out of the Sydney market.

They’re still calling for comment on this radical vision but feel free to express your views below.

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Bruce Sports sensational idea. Make the Rugby/League/Soccer stadium with a rectractable roof to keep out the Canberra cold.

We have enough “National” Museums/Libraries/Arts/Gallaries etc and very poor sports venues for a nations capital.

RodneyUppercut10:32 am 03 Jun 09

I’m all for converting bruce into a oval for cricket afl use, its perfect for that but I think we should really look at elsewhere if the rectangular stadium is going to be built. I think that northborneoval in braddon would be the perfect place to build the stadium, close to the city and public transport options, plenty of special events parking on streets in ainslie and turner and it would actually get people into the city, something civic deparately needs. There is plent of space for a multi level carpark on the site also.

And manuka should be kept as is, for local cricket and rugby.

i read something else related in the age footy site today about the afl looking at having the west sydney franchise they envisage at some stage in the next few years sharing canberra as a home venue, on the hawk’s launceston model. the swans of course are jacking up – rightly so i guess – as this infringes on ‘their turf’, with their reserves in the actafl and them already also having a few hitouts here trying to build support…

looking like we could get a lot of great new stadia if this grows and we get the world cup (which, btw, i am pretty convinced we will) and so likely also then [and hopefully anyway] an a-league team. noice.

Aussie Rule…Aussie Rules
mybad

Where is the replacement 25,000 seat stadium at Phillip?

Yes, now the ground is ready for Aussie Rule or Cricket. There is plenty of parking; and is on the bus routes. Two stands were demolished over the years and have not been rebuilt.

Where is the replacement 25,000 seat stadium at Phillip?

MrMagoo said :

OH and BTW Bren, I’ve represented this country at two World Championships and two Paralympic Qualifiers, so I think my passion is doing OK too thanks.

Congratulations on you’re achievements. I normally look up to athlete’s… people who normally have such positive frames of mind to achieve, sometimes the seemily unachievable. But you’re just so negative…

Anyway, with your background competing professionally you obviously understand the need to have a positive frame of mind. Personally at this current point in time, I am grateful that the driving forces behind our bid are more positive than yourself; even if you have done some work on the process. I also doubt very much, that Mr Lowy would put so much personal work into an event which he thought Australia had no chance of winning.

The point I will continue to make, is that I think its best we put in a professional bid, which includes plans to increase the capacity of Canberra Stadium.

Bren’s option: We bid – we either get it or we don’t;
Mr Magoos’ option: We forget about it because its a pipe dream;

Yes the FIFA World Cup is the biggest single sporting event in the world and luckily, FIFA and the IOC are too different groups and the voting process and politics are different. Also luckily the biggest growth market and growth television market is based in East Asia.

“I miss 100% of the shots I don’t take.” (Wayne Gretsky)

Anyway, we will find out next year.

Plus the rise of China and India make ours an ever more attractive time zone.

It seems to me that the TV people care about timezone, so longitude, and not so much about the latitude.

“Never again in Australia” would apply equaly well as “Never again in Japan”.

OH and BTW Bren, I’ve represented this country at two World Championships and two Paralympic Qualifiers, so I think my passion is doing OK too thanks.

Well Bren I’m not going to get into the I know you are I said you are, however, rest assured mate that I have had a bit to do with the process so I’m ok with my stance.

Also having worked in the Sport and recreation indsutry for 15 years 10 of them in the publci sector I again think I can talk fairly confidently on the issues here. Suffie to say that netowrk television execs told the IO after Sydney that never again should they take this showpiece event so far away from ‘mainstream’ television broadcasting hubs. Last time I checked, the FIFA World Cup actually attracts more viewers than the Olympic Games so I’ll rest it there I think.

O

MrMagoo said :

bren said :

MrMagoo… this project is reliant on a successful WC bid, because without a successful bid it would be extremely hard to justify the expense. Even for a mad sports fan like myself. If Australia does not win the world cup, then they shouldn’t do anything at the moment. But what is wrong with planning? Isn’t it good to see the Government actually thinking long term for once?

I totally agree that more money could be spent on health & education infrastructure. But once again, we are only really going to get money from the Federal Government if we win the WC bid… and they are only going to give us this money to use it upgrade stadium facilities.

Finally, in relation to winning the world cup bid. Well you don’t really have an understanding on how FIFA works do you? The success of the FFA bid, really relies on the success of the FFA convincing the AFC to support its bid (rather than China etc). Australia is part of the Asian market, we are in a time zone which is friendly for the big East Asian markets (the biggest growth market in Football and a market which FIFA is looking to exploit and expand). Since the 2018/2022 world cup’s will be announced at the same time, and we can safely assume that one of those cups will go to Europe, with the 2014 cup in Brazil, 2010 in South Africa – it really leaves Asia or North America. Finally, do not underestimate Frank Lowy’s ability.

I am by no means saying that Australia will get the world cup… it will be a challenge! But to say we have no hope is not true.

Anyway, dream a little… it will be good for you.

Well Bren I do understand how it works as I am employed in the Federal govt’s Sport Section, think I’ve got a good handle on the whole thing actually.

Well Mr Magoo, maybe you should consider resigning… cause you’re obviously not passionate enough to be advance Australia’s sporting interests. Anyway, as a fellow public servant, I understand that just because I work for a Deparment, it doesn’t mean I know everything about that Department. If you write back that you work for FIFA or the AFC – I will conceed 🙂

Anyway, forgetting that… I have found that the ‘why bother, we don’t have chance’ approach doesn’t achieve anything in life.

bren said :

MrMagoo… this project is reliant on a successful WC bid, because without a successful bid it would be extremely hard to justify the expense. Even for a mad sports fan like myself. If Australia does not win the world cup, then they shouldn’t do anything at the moment. But what is wrong with planning? Isn’t it good to see the Government actually thinking long term for once?

I totally agree that more money could be spent on health & education infrastructure. But once again, we are only really going to get money from the Federal Government if we win the WC bid… and they are only going to give us this money to use it upgrade stadium facilities.

Finally, in relation to winning the world cup bid. Well you don’t really have an understanding on how FIFA works do you? The success of the FFA bid, really relies on the success of the FFA convincing the AFC to support its bid (rather than China etc). Australia is part of the Asian market, we are in a time zone which is friendly for the big East Asian markets (the biggest growth market in Football and a market which FIFA is looking to exploit and expand). Since the 2018/2022 world cup’s will be announced at the same time, and we can safely assume that one of those cups will go to Europe, with the 2014 cup in Brazil, 2010 in South Africa – it really leaves Asia or North America. Finally, do not underestimate Frank Lowy’s ability.

I am by no means saying that Australia will get the world cup… it will be a challenge! But to say we have no hope is not true.

Anyway, dream a little… it will be good for you.

Well Bren I do understand how it works as I am employed in the Federal govt’s Sport Section, think I’ve got a good handle on the whole thing actually.

Check out the artists impression in the paper – apparently in the future we’ll all be 5m tall! Those people mingling on the outskirts of the stadiums are all freaks….

Mred – Yes, Australia V Italy is being played there next week. First Wallabies test in many a year. Italy is at best, a second rate team… A larger stadium, should allow the ARU to bring better opposition and better crowds (unlikely to ever be a Bledisloe game or anything).

MrMagoo… this project is reliant on a successful WC bid, because without a successful bid it would be extremely hard to justify the expense. Even for a mad sports fan like myself. If Australia does not win the world cup, then they shouldn’t do anything at the moment. But what is wrong with planning? Isn’t it good to see the Government actually thinking long term for once?

I totally agree that more money could be spent on health & education infrastructure. But once again, we are only really going to get money from the Federal Government if we win the WC bid… and they are only going to give us this money to use it upgrade stadium facilities.

Finally, in relation to winning the world cup bid. Well you don’t really have an understanding on how FIFA works do you? The success of the FFA bid, really relies on the success of the FFA convincing the AFC to support its bid (rather than China etc). Australia is part of the Asian market, we are in a time zone which is friendly for the big East Asian markets (the biggest growth market in Football and a market which FIFA is looking to exploit and expand). Since the 2018/2022 world cup’s will be announced at the same time, and we can safely assume that one of those cups will go to Europe, with the 2014 cup in Brazil, 2010 in South Africa – it really leaves Asia or North America. Finally, do not underestimate Frank Lowy’s ability.

I am by no means saying that Australia will get the world cup… it will be a challenge! But to say we have no hope is not true.

Anyway, dream a little… it will be good for you.

A hell of a lot of this is continugent on Australia successfully bidding for a World Cup in Football (Soccer for those that refuse that tag). Can I say, not in a million years will the FFA be successful in bedding for this showpiece international sporting event. Ever since Sydney 2000, the international media has cast doubt on any further major events ever being played this far away from major media markets ie. Europe, Asio and the Americas. Forget the WC its a pipe dream at best.

And being a sport nut i can’t believe I am saying this, but the money spent on this infrastructure could easily and better spent on health and education, to name two far more worthy outlets. Eitehr that or upgrade the community facilities so that the Raiders, Wallbies, Socceroos etc. of tomorrow have somewhere half decent to learn their skills on rather than dustbowls.

I believe Wallabies Vs Italy?? is about to be played at Canberra Stadium. That should draw a fair crowd.

Overall I like parts of this idea – build the new stadium in Bruce, but why not just make it a permanent 40,000 seat stadium? Sure it will cost more to maintain and the Brumbies / Raiders will rarely fill it (maybe for Brumbies finals), but the Waratahs & Roosters never fill the SFS and it hardly detracts from the atmosphere. A well designed, well built stadium, will have a good atomsphere. Thats the problem with ANZ, its only good when its full, whereas Suncorp is just a well-built football ground.

A 40,000 seat stadium, will also allow for Canberra to host yearly international events like the Socceroos & Wallabies. At the moment the FFA / ARU cannot bring top quality games to Canberra due to lack of seating and corporate facilties.

If we go for a 26,500 seat stadium and then increase capacity temporarily for big events, having to convert the stadium to larger capacity will cost too much and subsequently make Canberra Stadium uncompetitve compared to interstate alternatives.

Anyway, part of hosting bid international events like the World Cup, is building infrastructure that wouldn’t otherwise be built… which benefits the community in the longer-term.

Convert the current Canberra Stadium to cricket/AFL ground as planned.

Leave Manuka alone, or downsize it just a little. Therefore it still keeps it heritage feel.

Then enhance the Business Park etc around Bruce (Ofices, Hotel & more apartment residential) to provide on-going income to help run the stadium.

Gungahlin Al11:42 am 27 May 09

Andrew Barr has responded to my comment on Facebook with the following:

“We currently have two venues – Canberra Stadium and Manuka Oval – one is rectangular and one is an oval. The question is should we consolidate both on to one site so we can invest in one precinct, provide one set of transport infrastructure and consolidate hotels, entertainment, cafes, clubs and other sporting infrastructure on the one site.

“The … Read moreLang Park model is exactly what we are looking to do with transport. It used to be that 70-80% of spectators used their car to go to matches. Now it is more like 10-20%.”

Gungahlin Al said :

Let’s see – traffic jams for single events there already. 2 events simultaneously? Ha!

With with he current schedule of usage for those venues that would very rarely happen. Even in the future with say a football match and a cricket test on at the same time the plan looks like with the dedicated bus access from GDE there would be more public transport, plus linking the CIT carpark for big / multiple events.

caf said :

MrMagoo: Oh I dunno, I suspect it’d end up more like the Ainslie or Braddon ovals.

It sounded pretty strange at first, but more sensible once you hear that the new rectangular stadium would be 26,500 normal capacity, with 40,000+ being temporary seating.

Though if they can put a carpark under the playing surface at Bruce, why couldn’t they do that at Manuka?

Yeah I was imagining Anslie oval, which is a still used for local Aussie Rules and Cricket.

The 40,000 figure makes even more sense when you realise that is the minimum size for world cup matches, so what they’re basically saying is that it would be a new, better, purpose built rectangular stadium, with slightly more capacity than now, but that could host world cup games in the future.

Because they’d be raising the playing surface from where it is now to about where it used to be. So rather than fill it with dirt they’d instead make a carpark. At Manuka they’d have to dig a bloody big new hole.

The Axe Man said :

I’d prefer the football to be kept at Manuka. It’s very good to watch football there.
The only thing they need to upgrade are the toilets

Which is OK for 1 cricket and two AFL games a year (although parking is still a pain) but for any more usage than that we need things like lighting towers and OB facilities that just aren’t possible at Manuka.

Just saw the front page of the CT – this is only “Plan D”. Plans A, B and C involve various levels of upgrading Bruce Stadium in its current configuration, with two options for upgrading Manuka with new stands.

I’d prefer the football to be kept at Manuka. It’s very good to watch football there.
The only thing they need to upgrade are the toilets

MrMagoo: Oh I dunno, I suspect it’d end up more like the Ainslie or Braddon ovals.

It sounded pretty strange at first, but more sensible once you hear that the new rectangular stadium would be 26,500 normal capacity, with 40,000+ being temporary seating.

Though if they can put a carpark under the playing surface at Bruce, why couldn’t they do that at Manuka?

Gungahlin Al9:45 am 27 May 09

Let’s see – traffic jams for single events there already. 2 events simultaneously? Ha!

Someone at Sport and Rec has got nothing to do obviously. What a ridiculous notion. Expand Canberra Stadium all you like but don’t retun manuka to suburban status, it’ll be a wrecked dust bowl in five years and loose all of its charm and beauty.

As for the comment about the AMP, oh please can all the rednecks please declare their hand before posting. If you want to race cars and be a hoon, go to Wakefiled Park or Eastern Creek, stop pedalling that rubbish in Canberra its dead as the dodo.

It’s easy for me personally to dismiss this as a bad idea because I have no personal interest in sport, and so I’ve never understood why it should be subsidised by taxpayers, it’s hardly an essential service.

Even objectively though, I don’t like it at all. I thought the govt was running out of money? That’s why bikes won’t be free on buses any more (starting either 1st June or July, can’t remember which). There are freakwent breakdowns or missing buses, even before they closed (moved) Belconnen Interchange. The bus stops don’t get maintained or cleaned at all AFAICT, our seat is covered in someone’s discarded fried mushrooms.

The Riot ACT has recently shown the old zoo that needs cleaning up. My local Primary school NEVER has enough money or staff. The waiting lists for pediatric assessments are many months long.

None of these are really crises, but if there’s money to slosh around like this, I think that for-profit businesses (the leagues are, the teams are… are the stadiums for-profit entities?) should be way down the bottom of the list, regardless of the whole oval/rectangle debate.

at least someone is thinking ahead. we’re going to need an 85,000 seater stadium somewhere for when the canberra a-league team (the griffins) take on al-someone or the pohang steelers in the asian champions league final and the socceroos beat holland in the world cup semi-final. aren’t we?

areaman said :

Of course that big plan would cost $300-$350 Million over 3 years, 1/3 of the cost of the first line in a light rail network.

That was my first thought, too. If it came to a populist vote, I’d got the light rail.

Areaman, I like the plan, only issue is the current Bruce/Canberra stadium was never suitable for AFL cricket (it was an athletics stadium), so the changes would have to make the playing surface even larger than before to make it suitable.

But like I said I like the idea and a new stadium for the rectangular fields would be so much better than trying to do more at the existing stadium.

Manuka is a classic old cricket ground one of the countries greatest with a great history. What a stupid idea. First grade plays cricket on there every weekend and you cant tell me they would let them play on the Canberra stadium every weekend. And the place can still be used for community activities anyway as is.

Don’t bother with the new stadia Jon, just give us free tickets and free return buses to Sydney or Melboring for major sporting events. Or set up a motorsport park like the AMP was flogging at the last election. Sorted.

Nambucco Deliria said :

Why turn Bruce into an oval when the only sports played there are League, Union and Football? The Force are moving from Subiaco because no one wants to watch rugby from a distance of half a mile, so surely common sense will prevail, won’t it?

Because they’d move all the rectangular sports next door to the new stadium and the oval sports from Manuka.

…use saved money to subsidise ticket prices and beer.

bd84 said :

mred said :

This sounds like it’s been thought up by someone trying to get more support for the arts.

How many million to build a new stadium with an extra 5000 seat capacity? Waste of time!

Playing AFL / Cricket in a square stadium? They will never get the current Bruce stadium big enough to host high level games.

Idiots.

I think their point was to redevelop the current stadium to oval shape so it could host AFL & Cricket.

Basically they’re right in that they will eventually need to move AFL and cricket from Manuka, because it’s too small and cannot be redeveloped substantially, plus there is absolutely no parking available there.

As for a new stadium that can hold 40,000 that’s rediculous. The raiders currently struggle to get 10,000 and the brumbies only get 5,000 more. As league continues it’s slow and painful death, it’s unlikely they will need much more than a park. If they really want a larger stadium they should redevelop the current stadium back to a proper oval shape and do something really cool like have extendable seating closer to a rectangle for the 5,000 raiders fans.

Did anyone actually read the papers. The preferred option (4 for bruce, 3 for the oval) is to build a new square stadium with a capacity of 26,500 and expandable to 40,000 temporarily for big events. The main point of the new stadium wouldn’t be for greater capacity but for a better experience for for the fans and teams.

The current stadium would then be turned back into the pre 1997 configuration (except this time with a car park under the playing surface) allowing cricket and AFL with better facilities and TV quality lighting (which would never be possible at manuka).

Manuka oval would then be converted back into a suburban oval.

All proposals all also include a new bus station with dedicated on and off ramps from the GDE.

Of course that big plan would cost $300-$350 Million over 3 years, 1/3 of the cost of the first line in a light rail network. Still it’s a pretty clever use of space and existing buildings.

Silly, silly idea. Add more seats at Bruce for the rugby. Leave Manuka as is – will be many years before cricket or afl fill that venue.

Nambucco Deliria10:49 pm 26 May 09

Why turn Bruce into an oval when the only sports played there are League, Union and Football? The Force are moving from Subiaco because no one wants to watch rugby from a distance of half a mile, so surely common sense will prevail, won’t it?

mred said :

This sounds like it’s been thought up by someone trying to get more support for the arts.

How many million to build a new stadium with an extra 5000 seat capacity? Waste of time!

Playing AFL / Cricket in a square stadium? They will never get the current Bruce stadium big enough to host high level games.

Idiots.

I think their point was to redevelop the current stadium to oval shape so it could host AFL & Cricket.

Basically they’re right in that they will eventually need to move AFL and cricket from Manuka, because it’s too small and cannot be redeveloped substantially, plus there is absolutely no parking available there.

As for a new stadium that can hold 40,000 that’s rediculous. The raiders currently struggle to get 10,000 and the brumbies only get 5,000 more. As league continues it’s slow and painful death, it’s unlikely they will need much more than a park. If they really want a larger stadium they should redevelop the current stadium back to a proper oval shape and do something really cool like have extendable seating closer to a rectangle for the 5,000 raiders fans.

This sounds like it’s been thought up by someone trying to get more support for the arts.

How many million to build a new stadium with an extra 5000 seat capacity? Waste of time!

Playing AFL / Cricket in a square stadium? They will never get the current Bruce stadium big enough to host high level games.

Idiots.

I don’t think that the existing stadium at Bruce is good enough for a rectangular stadium. The stands are too shallow and if you’re behind someone tall you’ll be staring at the back of their head for the entire game. You do get plenty of leg room, but you still feel far away from the action compared to somewhere like the Sydney Football Stadium – where you feel right on top of it.

That said, it will cost a lot of money. I guess it depends whether Australia wins the hosting rights for the World Cup in 2018 or 2022. Then the fed’s will step in with some of the money.

Everything I’ve seen and heard about this plan is that it’s f***ed in the head. Canberra Stadium has decades of life left in it with a facelift here and there. As for AFL and Cricket, stuff em, let em play in a slum.

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