9 July 2012

Won't someone think of the Trannies? Cries Simon

| johnboy
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Simon Corbell has released the ACT Law Reform Advisory Council’s report: Beyond the Binary: legal recognition of sex and gender diversity in the ACT. He’s been sitting on it since March.

The report recommends a focus on the need for correct and consistent terminology for sex and gender diverse people in ACT legislation and government documentation to enable equal access to services for all people in the Territory.

The report urges a reconsideration of the current policy and procedures to give legal recognition to a persons’ sex or gender identity.

It also calls for the relaxation of criteria that must be met for a person to change their legal sex and gender status.


UPDATE 09/07/12 16:57: The Greens are pointing out that this stuff was largely recommended in 2003 and maybe now would be a good time to do something about it.

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#147

Bretty12:59 pm, 20 Aug 12

Watch out on September 1 as Andrew Barr will announce funding for a Gay Rights group here in the Capital. Diversity ACT have used an election year to grab some public money and a govt funded venue (in Kambah) from the ACT goverment to splash out on sequins in the name of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender and Queers of Canberra. This pseudo group claim to represent ACT queers under their name but haven’t engaged with many, all in a bid to end homophobia. All they have done so far is divided this vibrant community.

Your a Tool GAY RIGHT GROUP lol ……Get your facts i just did on there website and spoke with a few gay freinds who love the idea and support the end of homophobia.
Their is one person blowing his own horn at this group in their community and that he was not involed in the set up… öld Queen who got his pants in a twist. Think you should check your Facts before you open your mouth. and Dates and whats going on ?

Bretty said :

The majority of community groups do not go to the government asking for grants AND also for a venue to hold their meetings. Other groups would love to have their own place to call their own, instead of having to book rooms in libraries and halls.

I wasn’t making judgement on this specific case – I have zero person knowledge about how well they represent the community. I’m just saying it can be very hard for a person in the government structure, who is assessing grant applications, to know what sort of genuine community involvement an org might have. They can try and assess it based on membership numbers etc, but those things are easily fudged (cough) hospital emergency department (cough).

p1 said :

Bretty said :

Watch out on September 1 as Andrew Barr will announce funding for a Gay Rights group here in the Capital. Diversity ACT have used an election year to grab some public money and a govt funded venue (in Kambah) from the ACT goverment to splash out on sequins in the name of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender and Queers of Canberra. This pseudo group claim to represent ACT queers under their name but haven’t engaged with many, all in a bid to end homophobia. All they have done so far is divided this vibrant community.

Sadly, I think you will find this happens with every single community made up of people who are part of said community by self identification.

Fund a cycling group, motor sport group, an indigenous group, a green group, etc and you will have a lycra clad weirdo, rev head, person who identifies as Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander, or greenie complaining that the group getting the funding doesn’t represent the *real* core of the community.

p1 said :

Bretty said :

Watch out on September 1 as Andrew Barr will announce funding for a Gay Rights group here in the Capital. Diversity ACT have used an election year to grab some public money and a govt funded venue (in Kambah) from the ACT goverment to splash out on sequins in the name of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender and Queers of Canberra. This pseudo group claim to represent ACT queers under their name but haven’t engaged with many, all in a bid to end homophobia. All they have done so far is divided this vibrant community.

Sadly, I think you will find this happens with every single community made up of people who are part of said community by self identification.

Fund a cycling group, motor sport group, an indigenous group, a green group, etc and you will have a lycra clad weirdo, rev head, person who identifies as Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander, or greenie complaining that the group getting the funding doesn’t represent the *real* core of the community.

The majority of community groups do not go to the government asking for grants AND also for a venue to hold their meetings. Other groups would love to have their own place to call their own, instead of having to book rooms in libraries and halls.

Bretty said :

Watch out on September 1 as Andrew Barr will announce funding for a Gay Rights group here in the Capital. Diversity ACT have used an election year to grab some public money and a govt funded venue (in Kambah) from the ACT goverment to splash out on sequins in the name of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender and Queers of Canberra. This pseudo group claim to represent ACT queers under their name but haven’t engaged with many, all in a bid to end homophobia. All they have done so far is divided this vibrant community.

Sadly, I think you will find this happens with every single community made up of people who are part of said community by self identification.

Fund a cycling group, motor sport group, an indigenous group, a green group, etc and you will have a lycra clad weirdo, rev head, person who identifies as Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander, or greenie complaining that the group getting the funding doesn’t represent the *real* core of the community.

Watch out on September 1 as Andrew Barr will announce funding for a Gay Rights group here in the Capital. Diversity ACT have used an election year to grab some public money and a govt funded venue (in Kambah) from the ACT goverment to splash out on sequins in the name of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender and Queers of Canberra. This pseudo group claim to represent ACT queers under their name but haven’t engaged with many, all in a bid to end homophobia. All they have done so far is divided this vibrant community.

Here_and_Now2:37 pm 27 Jul 12

p1 said :

I have been thinking recently about the part of this thread debating the changing or reissuing of birth certificates with “corrected” information. I am a little torn on this issue – on one hand I appreciate the trouble and conflict this could cause some individuals – on the other hand I tend to subscribe to the “it’s a historical document, it was accurate at the time and shouldn’t be revised” attitude.

So, having thought about it a little it occurs to me that almost all the information on a birth certificate is just as changeable as the gender (interestingly, on my birth certificate, it says “sex” not gender – and that was very specifically accurate at birth).

My name is the same, but I could easily change that;
The hospital I was born in has changed name;
My mothers (& fathers) ages are no longer what they were;
My fathers job at the time is no longer called that;
My fathers job has also changed since then;
etc; etc; etc;

Now, I know that I am dangerously close to making a “slippery slope” type argument, but if this is a document which is supposed to reflect the truth at the time, I don’t believe it should be changed.

That said, I don’t see why the government can’t issue some sort of identity document to perform all the same functions as a birth certificate, but stating the identity of the person as at a specific date.

If you change your name, they actually give you a new birth certificate with your new name on it, so it’s something changeable already. (I think it says your old name on it on the back or something, though.)

An alternate ID form could be an idea, but the real trouble is turning that into a recognised ID form. I’ve even had a perfectly-valid proof-of-age card denied as photo ID. If the identifiers we have already aren’t being accepted, adding a new one probably won’t help matters.

HenryBG said :

p1 said :

HenryBG said :

johnboy said :

I don’t think picts were painting themselves in woad as a statement of gender identification.

Conjecture. What is obvious is that blue was not a symbol of femininity to them.

With the picts (and their choice of colours for body art) being somehow an overarching example which proves that blue couldn’t possible be popular with girls in many other cultures/times?

Who push bad non-existent science here?

Maybe the picts associate combat with femininity, so when going to war they paint themselves all girly?

And that’s how it’s done – all you need is one “maybe” and PhD’s can be churned out on the back of fact-free jargonised assertions.

I can’t believe you just dismissed someones opinion based soley on them doing exactly the same thing you did in the first place.

Interesting comment considering all your comments are unfounded assumptions about how life should be according to you.

If you dislike others putting forward their views and theories about subjects could I suggest starting to link to credible sources that show that your views are not just assumptions.

p1 said :

HenryBG said :

johnboy said :

I don’t think picts were painting themselves in woad as a statement of gender identification.

Conjecture. What is obvious is that blue was not a symbol of femininity to them.

With the picts (and their choice of colours for body art) being somehow an overarching example which proves that blue couldn’t possible be popular with girls in many other cultures/times?

Who push bad non-existent science here?

Maybe the picts associate combat with femininity, so when going to war they paint themselves all girly?

And that’s how it’s done – all you need is one “maybe” and PhD’s can be churned out on the back of fact-free jargonised assertions.

HenryBG said :

johnboy said :

I don’t think picts were painting themselves in woad as a statement of gender identification.

Conjecture. What is obvious is that blue was not a symbol of femininity to them.

This is the great thing about Social “science” – unlike real science, you just ignore the Picts and make crap up about colours and gender identification and use some post-modern “nothing’s actually wrong, there is no such thing as facts” justification if anybody calls you on your bull%#$@.

I think you are taking a huge leap in assumption by associating your modern values on a race that has not existed for centuries and left very little to no information about their society, thoughts, customs or reasoning.

troll-sniffer said :

M Rose said :

A lot of transgendered people find that term to be heinously offensive, particularly when used by someone outside the community. If we changed the topic of this article to homosexual rights, I would equate this title with “Won’t someone think of the f—-ts/d–es? Cries Simon” Is that something you would be likely to write?

It never ceases to amaze me how many minority groups choose to be offended by words. The degree of outrage also appears to be generally in proportion to the marginalisation of the group, almost as though they wear their offence as a badge of honour.

The old adage… sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me, drummed into our pliant little skulls from pre-school times, was one of the sagest pieces of advice I ever received. It’s a pity more of these overly sensitive trannies and the like don’t pay more attention to similar pearls of wisdom.

I think that you will find it is not the word itself, which is just a string of letters defining a sound, but the intention that is used behind the words.

Using the word “Trannies” is usually associated with ones of anger and threats of violence (which is sometimes back up by actual violence) and therefore is not, to the person who the word is generally aimed at, a friendly word and thus offensive to them. That is what people have against the word that you seem to think nothing of, the treat of violence and anger towards them.

For those who earlier who can’t understand why it is ok for some people to use and not others (In community/outside community) the same thing applies. In a community the word is used in a friendly manner by someone who understands the implication and the threat behind the words and make light of them. Reclaiming the word for themselves. Outside and the intent, even if it is from a sympathetic person, aren’t clear as they don’t understand the problems that come with the label.

Not understanding the issues behind the use of certain words is an indication that you don’t understand the issues and haven’t put much thought in trying to understand where someone is coming from. That is something we all do to the various minority groups in the word. We can’t all understand everyone’s point of view. But sometimes we should all stop thinking about ourselves and try and understand the other side of the arguement.

On saying that, I can’t get my head around the bigots in this thread that don’t try and see other peoples point f views and want to enforce their life onto everyone else just because they can’t cope with someone who is different from themselves.

Mr Gillespie said :

Another “reform” we don’t need, this is getting out of control. ACT (Labor/Greens Coalition) Self Government is becoming the laughing stock of Australia!

Thanks for visiting us from whatever planet it is you live on Mr. G, I was wondering where you’d got to.
You understand that the proposed reforms are to bring us in line with the rest of the country don’t you? You’re becoming the laughing stock of RA.

HenryBG said :

johnboy said :

I don’t think picts were painting themselves in woad as a statement of gender identification.

Conjecture. What is obvious is that blue was not a symbol of femininity to them.

With the picts (and their choice of colours for body art) being somehow an overarching example which proves that blue couldn’t possible be popular with girls in many other cultures/times?

Who push bad non-existent science here?

Maybe the picts associate combat with femininity, so when going to war they paint themselves all girly?

johnboy said :

I don’t think picts were painting themselves in woad as a statement of gender identification.

Conjecture. What is obvious is that blue was not a symbol of femininity to them.

This is the great thing about Social “science” – unlike real science, you just ignore the Picts and make crap up about colours and gender identification and use some post-modern “nothing’s actually wrong, there is no such thing as facts” justification if anybody calls you on your bull%#$@.

johnboy said :

I don’t think picts were painting themselves in woad as a statement of gender identification.

This site, however, sells ‘woad balls for demonstration and display’:

http://www.woad.org.uk/html/woad_paints.html

But the balls are disappointingly brown, leaving the argument up in the air.

I have been thinking recently about the part of this thread debating the changing or reissuing of birth certificates with “corrected” information. I am a little torn on this issue – on one hand I appreciate the trouble and conflict this could cause some individuals – on the other hand I tend to subscribe to the “it’s a historical document, it was accurate at the time and shouldn’t be revised” attitude.

So, having thought about it a little it occurs to me that almost all the information on a birth certificate is just as changeable as the gender (interestingly, on my birth certificate, it says “sex” not gender – and that was very specifically accurate at birth).

My name is the same, but I could easily change that;
The hospital I was born in has changed name;
My mothers (& fathers) ages are no longer what they were;
My fathers job at the time is no longer called that;
My fathers job has also changed since then;
etc; etc; etc;

Now, I know that I am dangerously close to making a “slippery slope” type argument, but if this is a document which is supposed to reflect the truth at the time, I don’t believe it should be changed.

That said, I don’t see why the government can’t issue some sort of identity document to perform all the same functions as a birth certificate, but stating the identity of the person as at a specific date.

poetix said :

HenryBG said :


And girls like pink…

The association of girls with pink is quite a recent phenomenon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink#In_gender

Amusingly, there is a far longer association of femininity with the colour blue.   These things change.

Yes, who can forget all those pictish warriors who painted themselves with blue woad. Very feminine.

I don’t think picts were painting themselves in woad as a statement of gender identification.

HenryBG said :


And girls like pink…

The association of girls with pink is quite a recent phenomenon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink#In_gender

Amusingly, there is a far longer association of femininity with the colour blue.   These things change.

troll-sniffer11:20 pm 17 Jul 12

M Rose said :

A lot of transgendered people find that term to be heinously offensive, particularly when used by someone outside the community. If we changed the topic of this article to homosexual rights, I would equate this title with “Won’t someone think of the f—-ts/d–es? Cries Simon” Is that something you would be likely to write?

It never ceases to amaze me how many minority groups choose to be offended by words. The degree of outrage also appears to be generally in proportion to the marginalisation of the group, almost as though they wear their offence as a badge of honour.

The old adage… sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me, drummed into our pliant little skulls from pre-school times, was one of the sagest pieces of advice I ever received. It’s a pity more of these overly sensitive trannies and the like don’t pay more attention to similar pearls of wisdom.

Jim Jones said :

History isn’t a series of facts. Understanding of history changes on an incredibly regular basis, there’s nothing ‘wrong’ about this.

History is a series of facts, it’s the interpretation that changes, unless of course, evidence comes to light to say otherwise.

And there you have it in a nutshell: the difference between the idiot Arts-undergraduate approach to reality; and reality.

Thumper deserves a medal for that catch – truly awesome.

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

Wow, racism now. Stay classy, bro.

So you’re denying that Greek women (to name one group) are over-endowed with hirsutism genes?

Kristoff said :

Actually, the sex/gender divide (the theory being that sex is the canvas onto which society paints gender) has been heavily contested by gender theorists. Both terms have social implications, and the notion of objective biological sex is not universally agreed upon by academics. Over history, we have distinguished everything from two to eight ‘objective’ sexes.

Precisely.
%$#@wits lacking the intellect to do anything worthwhile at Uni enrol in crap like “Gender studies” or “Social Science” and create spurious fields of study and argument, generating reams of constructed jargon to create the illusion of a justification for what they are doing.

People with a brain understand that sex in our species is determined by chromosomes. And girls like pink. A sad fact that in one fell swoop renders all your years of study completely useless, redundant, and meaningless.

HenryBG said :

Kristoff said :

milkman said :

Your gender at birth is a fact.

1) Gender is not just genitals.

Another bunch of clueless Arts-degree holders.

“genitals” is sex.
In a sexually-differentiated species, each individual is born with one or the other of the two sexes, EXCEPT, for a tiny (and I mean absolutely minute) minority who have a chromosomal abnormality causing ambiguous sexual differentiation. The form of the genitalia is just one of the expressions of the sex.

“gender” is a word mis-appropriated by monoglottal english-speaking social science morons to salt their nonsensical jargon with.

Actually, the sex/gender divide (the theory being that sex is the canvas onto which society paints gender) has been heavily contested by gender theorists. Both terms have social implications, and the notion of objective biological sex is not universally agreed upon by academics. Over history, we have distinguished everything from two to eight ‘objective’ sexes.

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd5:07 pm 15 Jul 12

HenryBG said :

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

HenryBG said :

Kristoff said :

milkman said :

Your gender at birth is a fact.

1) Gender is not just genitals.

Another bunch of clueless Arts-degree holders.

“genitals” is sex.
In a sexually-differentiated species, each individual is born with one or the other of the two sexes, EXCEPT, for a tiny (and I mean absolutely minute) minority who have a chromosomal abnormality causing ambiguous sexual differentiation. The form of the genitalia is just one of the expressions of the sex.

“gender” is a word mis-appropriated by monoglottal english-speaking social science morons to salt their nonsensical jargon with.

Surprise surpris. Henrybg is ignorant and incorrect as usual. Maybe do some research on genetics before talking about something you know nothing about.

Nice bit of handwaving.
I’ll give you genes can confuse our perception of sexual differentiation (eg, Greek women and their very generous endowment with hirsutism genes).

In fact, talking about hair – what about bald guys? Should they be all wearing skirts, or what?

Wow, racism now. Stay classy, bro.

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

HenryBG said :

Kristoff said :

milkman said :

Your gender at birth is a fact.

1) Gender is not just genitals.

Another bunch of clueless Arts-degree holders.

“genitals” is sex.
In a sexually-differentiated species, each individual is born with one or the other of the two sexes, EXCEPT, for a tiny (and I mean absolutely minute) minority who have a chromosomal abnormality causing ambiguous sexual differentiation. The form of the genitalia is just one of the expressions of the sex.

“gender” is a word mis-appropriated by monoglottal english-speaking social science morons to salt their nonsensical jargon with.

Surprise surpris. Henrybg is ignorant and incorrect as usual. Maybe do some research on genetics before talking about something you know nothing about.

Nice bit of handwaving.
I’ll give you genes can confuse our perception of sexual differentiation (eg, Greek women and their very generous endowment with hirsutism genes).

In fact, talking about hair – what about bald guys? Should they be all wearing skirts, or what?

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd3:30 pm 15 Jul 12

HenryBG said :

Kristoff said :

milkman said :

Your gender at birth is a fact.

1) Gender is not just genitals.

Another bunch of clueless Arts-degree holders.

“genitals” is sex.
In a sexually-differentiated species, each individual is born with one or the other of the two sexes, EXCEPT, for a tiny (and I mean absolutely minute) minority who have a chromosomal abnormality causing ambiguous sexual differentiation. The form of the genitalia is just one of the expressions of the sex.

“gender” is a word mis-appropriated by monoglottal english-speaking social science morons to salt their nonsensical jargon with.

Surprise surpris. Henrybg is ignorant and incorrect as usual. Maybe do some research on genetics before talking about something you know nothing about.

Kristoff said :

milkman said :

Your gender at birth is a fact.

1) Gender is not just genitals.

Another bunch of clueless Arts-degree holders.

“genitals” is sex.
In a sexually-differentiated species, each individual is born with one or the other of the two sexes, EXCEPT, for a tiny (and I mean absolutely minute) minority who have a chromosomal abnormality causing ambiguous sexual differentiation. The form of the genitalia is just one of the expressions of the sex.

“gender” is a word mis-appropriated by monoglottal english-speaking social science morons to salt their nonsensical jargon with.

milkman said :

Your gender at birth is a fact.

1) Gender is not just genitals. Science has been on the side of trans people for quite some time, proving that brain gender has objective causes, and that social gender is comprised of psychology, culture and brain gender, not just outwardly visible physical traits. If you’re not going to do any proper research, at least bother to go on Wikipedia before you make downright ignorant statements- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism

2) Given that gender is so complex, assumptions are often made about the facts at birth which later turn out to be wrong. An intersex person might have hidden organs. A transgender person’s psychology is hard to judge when they are one minute old.

It is 100% appropriate to let a small minority of people change their birth certificates so that the one, unqualified word on there more accurately reflects objective reality. Unless you are affected by the process, it’s really none of your business.

Additionally, birth certificates are so important that it is 100% necessary. With inconsistent ID and a historically inaccurate papertrail, a gender diverse person is forced to live openly, and flagged for violence and mockery by vilifiers (some of whom we see in this thread). It’s not enough to use another form of ID- birth certificates crop up all over the place, and often needed to get other forms of ID.

Finally, forbidding a trans person to change their birth certificate won’t shunt them back into their original box. It won’t make an FtM less male or an MtF less female. All it will do is force them to exist between genders, which is bad for all of you transphobes who like to see the binary strictly enforced, and, as an intersex person can tell you from their experience of being neither male nor female, a horrible way to live in bigoted Australian society.

LSWCHP said :

Kristoff said :

LSWCHP said :

nobody said :

The report strongly suggests you use a term like Sex and Gender Diverse, not “weird”. Some people have always been Sex and Gender Diverse, always have been throughout history and always will be, and are not “screaming” for a “new condition”. According to Wikipedia 1.7% of people can be considered Sex Diverse and 1-2% can be considered Gender Diverse. The numbers could be higher, except Bigots like yourself cause a lot of people to under report. Lastly, Sex and Gender Diverse people also pay taxes and in return, in the very least, would like to be treated equally.

I earlier expressed the view that the resources might have been better spent in other areas that would benefit more people. This resulted in me being called stupid, but que sera sera.

Anyway, I’m not going to trust Wikipedia on this. I might be wrong, but figures of 1-2% of the population for sex and gender diversity seem over inflated to me.

So, how many people are there in the ACT who are sex or gender diverse and will benefit from this?

Hundreds, by my reckoning. Ask A Genda Agenda.

Ok, so if there are hundreds of people (say 300) affected by this in the ACT then that would equate to about 0.1% of the population, not 1-2%, which is an order of magnitude difference.

Whatever the case, that’s still a lot of people struggling with this issue. I guess dealing with it as suggested won’t result in anybody getting hurt, so what the hell, go for it.

It could be more. I’m making a conservative estimate based on people I know who are out. For obvious reasons, a lot probably live by stealth. You’re right, though, it doesn’t affect anybody else, and there’s no public policy against it. It really shouldn’t be an issue, and a lot of fuss is being made about something that could be dealt with quickly, simply and with no cost.

p1 said :

Antagonist said :

Sounds like somebody fell over and broke their sense of humour.

…or had it surgically removed?

Most likely against their will.

Perhaps I should make some jokes about gays,or Aborigines,or Jews, or Muslims, or the disabled, or perhaps the mentally ill? Oh, hang on, that would be illegal wouldn’t it? I think Nobody is asking for reasonable equal treatment.

I used to think it was okay to make jokes about gays till my son revealed he was gay and how much those jokes hurt him. It was a big wake up call. For those who don’t get it, I’ll post something comedian Jason Alexander wrote after he made some gay jokes on a TV show. This is originally posted here: http://www.glaad.org/blog/actor-jason-alexander-apologizes-jokes-made-cbs-late-late-show

“A message of amends.

Last week, I made an appearance on the Craig Ferguson show – a wonderfully unstructured, truly spontaneous conversation show. No matter what anecdotes I think will be discussed, I have yet to find that Craig and I ever touch those subjects. Rather we head off onto one unplanned, loony topic after another. It’s great fun trying to keep up with him and I enjoy Craig immensely.

During the last appearance, we somehow wandered onto the topic of offbeat sports and he suddenly mentioned something about soccer and cricket. Now, I am not a stand-up comic. Stand up comics have volumes of time-tested material for every and all occasions. I, unfortunately, do not. However, I’ve done a far amount of public speaking and emceeing over the years so I do have a scattered bit, here and there.

Years ago, I was hosting comics in a touring show in Australia and one of the bits I did was talking about their sports versus American sports. I joked about how their rugby football made our football pale by comparison because it is a brutal, no holds barred sport played virtually without any pads, helmets or protection. And then I followed that with a bit about how, by comparison, their other big sport of cricket seemed so delicate and I used the phrase, “ a bit gay”. Well, it was all a laugh in Australia where it was seen as a joke about how little I understood cricket, which in fact is a very, very athletic sport. The routine was received well but, seeing as their isn’t much talk of cricket here in America, it hasn’t come up in years.

Until last week. When Craig mentioned cricket I thought, “oh, goody – I have a comic bit about cricket I can do. Won’t that be entertaining?”. And so I did a chunk of this old routine and again referred to cricket as kind of “gay” – talking about the all white uniforms that never seem to get soiled; the break they take for tea time with a formal tea cart rolled onto the field, etc. I also did an exaggerated demonstration of the rather unusual way they pitch the cricket ball which is very dance-like with a rather unusual and exaggerated arm gesture. Again, the routine seemed to play very well and I thought it had been a good appearance.

Shortly after that however, a few of my Twitter followers made me aware that they were both gay and offended by the joke. And truthfully, I could not understand why. I do know that humor always points to the peccadillos or absurdities or glaring generalities of some kind of group or another – short, fat, bald, blonde, ethnic, smart, dumb, rich, poor, etc. It is hard to tell any kind of joke that couldn’t be seen as offensive to someone. But I truly did not understand why a gay person would be particularly offended by this routine.

However, troubled by the reaction of some, I asked a few of my gay friends about it. And at first, even they couldn’t quite find the offense in the bit. But as we explored it, we began to realize what was implied under the humor. I was basing my use of the word “gay” on the silly generalization that real men don’t do gentile, refined things and that my portrayal of the cricket pitch was pointedly effeminate , thereby suggesting that effeminate and gay were synonymous.

But what we really got down to is quite serious. It is not that we can’t laugh at and with each other. It is not a question of oversensitivity. The problem is that today, as I write this, young men and women whose behaviors, choices or attitudes are not deemed “man enough” or “normal” are being subjected to all kinds of abuse from verbal to physical to societal. They are being demeaned and threatened because they don’t fit the group’s idea of what a “real man” or a “real woman” are supposed to look like, act like and feel like.

For these people, my building a joke upon the premise I did added to the pejorative stereotype that they are forced to deal with everyday. It is at the very heart of this whole ugly world of bullying that has been getting rightful and overdue attention in the media. And with my well-intentioned comedy bit, I played right into those hurtful assumptions and diminishments.

And the worst part is – I should know better. My daily life is filled with gay men and women, both socially and professionally. I am profoundly aware of the challenges these friends of mine face and I have openly advocated on their behalf. Plus, in my own small way, I have lived some of their experience. Growing up in the ‘70’s in a town that revered it’s school sports and athletes, I was quite the outsider listening to my musical theater albums, studying voice and dance and spending all my free time on the stage. Many of the same taunts and jeers and attitudes leveled at young gay men and women were thrown at me and on occasion I too was met with violence or the threat of violence.

So one might think that all these years later I might be able to intuit that my little cricket routine could make some person who has already been made to feel alien and outcast feel even worse or add to the conditions that create their alienation. But in this instance, I did not make the connection. I didn’t get it.

So, I would like to say – I now get it. And to the extent that these jokes made anyone feel even more isolated or misunderstood or just plain hurt – please know that was not my intention, at all or ever. I hope we will someday live in a society where we are so accepting of each other that we can all laugh at jokes like these and know that there is no malice or diminishment intended.

But we are not there yet.

So, I can only apologize and I do. In comedy, timing is everything. And when a group of people are still fighting so hard for understanding, acceptance, dignity and essential rights – the time for some kinds of laughs has not yet come. I hope my realization brings some comfort.

Thanks,
Jason”

Jim Jones said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

devils_advocate said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

devils_advocate said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

So use a different document. Changing a historic record is crazy. History doesn’t change.

You should read this book, it’s called 1984, by George Orwell. Totally awesome.

So you’d be happy for someone to change a legal record because they feel differently later in life?

Dunno if I’d be happy about it, but I’m quite certain history gets altered all the time for various reasons. it should probably keep me up at night but it doesn’t.

Cf: “terra nullius”

(and godwin’s law in 10, 9, 8…)

So some people altering history makes it ok for others? Sorry, but I’ve never been a supporter of the ‘two wrongs makes a right’ school of thought.

BTW, I liked the comment about Godwin’s Law – well played.

History isn’t a series of facts. Understanding of history changes on an incredibly regular basis, there’s nothing ‘wrong’ about this.

History is a series of facts, it’s the interpretation that changes, unless of course, evidence comes to light to say otherwise.

Spot on.

Antagonist said :

Sounds like somebody fell over and broke their sense of humour.

…or had it surgically removed?

VYBerlinaV8_is_back9:01 am 12 Jul 12

History is a series of facts, it’s the interpretation that changes, unless of course, evidence comes to light to say otherwise.

Indeed.

nobody said :

There have been many side-splitting jokes posted on this thread, mostly in bad taste. Sex and Gender Diverse are real people, with real feelings, and some will be reading this thread. We no longer post jokes about a person’s skin colour, no longer accept jokes about a person’s sexual orientation, and it is time to stop making jokes about the sex or gender diverse people. Now the childish have shared their hilarious jokes and have got it out of their system, it’s time to draw a line and stop with the poor taste and offensive jokes.

Sounds like somebody fell over and broke their sense of humour.

Jim Jones said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

devils_advocate said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

devils_advocate said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

So use a different document. Changing a historic record is crazy. History doesn’t change.

You should read this book, it’s called 1984, by George Orwell. Totally awesome.

So you’d be happy for someone to change a legal record because they feel differently later in life?

Dunno if I’d be happy about it, but I’m quite certain history gets altered all the time for various reasons. it should probably keep me up at night but it doesn’t.

Cf: “terra nullius”

(and godwin’s law in 10, 9, 8…)

So some people altering history makes it ok for others? Sorry, but I’ve never been a supporter of the ‘two wrongs makes a right’ school of thought.

BTW, I liked the comment about Godwin’s Law – well played.

History isn’t a series of facts. Understanding of history changes on an incredibly regular basis, there’s nothing ‘wrong’ about this.

Your gender at birth is a fact.

nobody said :

PBO said :

One thing that i will say about the intersex/gender community is that they are so easy to kidnap and getting away with it is so easy. I was driving an older model car when i was pulled over the other day by the police. My taped up victim was in the boot making an absolute racket by kicking and punching the inner lining of the boot.
The copper asked me: Whats making that noise in the back of the car?
And i replied; Its the tranny, if you dont take care of them they can make a lot of noise.
And they replied: Oh, all good then, have a nice day.

There have been many side-splitting jokes posted on this thread, mostly in bad taste. Sex and Gender Diverse are real people, with real feelings, and some will be reading this thread. We no longer post jokes about a person’s skin colour, no longer accept jokes about a person’s sexual orientation, and it is time to stop making jokes about the sex or gender diverse people. Now the childish have shared their hilarious jokes and have got it out of their system, it’s time to draw a line and stop with the poor taste and offensive jokes.

Off the top of my head, some joke categories are man jokes, woman jokes, husband jokes, wife jokes, blonde jokes, musician jokes (I really pity drummers and banjo players), lawyer jokes, engineer jokes and catholic priest jokes. There are obviously others…

If you’re a human being, it’s likely that someone will end up taking the piss out of you one way or another. In Australia at least, I reckon you’ll do better by pressing your cause while being able to maintain a capacity to laugh at yourself, rather than attempting to stifle the humour.

PBO said :

One thing that i will say about the intersex/gender community is that they are so easy to kidnap and getting away with it is so easy. I was driving an older model car when i was pulled over the other day by the police. My taped up victim was in the boot making an absolute racket by kicking and punching the inner lining of the boot.
The copper asked me: Whats making that noise in the back of the car?
And i replied; Its the tranny, if you dont take care of them they can make a lot of noise.
And they replied: Oh, all good then, have a nice day.

Think someone kicked an own goal with this one.

PBO said :

One thing that i will say about the intersex/gender community is that they are so easy to kidnap and getting away with it is so easy. I was driving an older model car when i was pulled over the other day by the police. My taped up victim was in the boot making an absolute racket by kicking and punching the inner lining of the boot.
The copper asked me: Whats making that noise in the back of the car?
And i replied; Its the tranny, if you dont take care of them they can make a lot of noise.
And they replied: Oh, all good then, have a nice day.

There have been many side-splitting jokes posted on this thread, mostly in bad taste. Sex and Gender Diverse are real people, with real feelings, and some will be reading this thread. We no longer post jokes about a person’s skin colour, no longer accept jokes about a person’s sexual orientation, and it is time to stop making jokes about the sex or gender diverse people. Now the childish have shared their hilarious jokes and have got it out of their system, it’s time to draw a line and stop with the poor taste and offensive jokes.

I don’t believe anyone appointed you the commissar of humour?

Kristoff said :

LSWCHP said :

nobody said :

The report strongly suggests you use a term like Sex and Gender Diverse, not “weird”. Some people have always been Sex and Gender Diverse, always have been throughout history and always will be, and are not “screaming” for a “new condition”. According to Wikipedia 1.7% of people can be considered Sex Diverse and 1-2% can be considered Gender Diverse. The numbers could be higher, except Bigots like yourself cause a lot of people to under report. Lastly, Sex and Gender Diverse people also pay taxes and in return, in the very least, would like to be treated equally.

I earlier expressed the view that the resources might have been better spent in other areas that would benefit more people. This resulted in me being called stupid, but que sera sera.

Anyway, I’m not going to trust Wikipedia on this. I might be wrong, but figures of 1-2% of the population for sex and gender diversity seem over inflated to me.

So, how many people are there in the ACT who are sex or gender diverse and will benefit from this?

Hundreds, by my reckoning. Ask A Genda Agenda.

Ok, so if there are hundreds of people (say 300) affected by this in the ACT then that would equate to about 0.1% of the population, not 1-2%, which is an order of magnitude difference.

Whatever the case, that’s still a lot of people struggling with this issue. I guess dealing with it as suggested won’t result in anybody getting hurt, so what the hell, go for it.

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

devils_advocate said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

devils_advocate said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

So use a different document. Changing a historic record is crazy. History doesn’t change.

You should read this book, it’s called 1984, by George Orwell. Totally awesome.

So you’d be happy for someone to change a legal record because they feel differently later in life?

Dunno if I’d be happy about it, but I’m quite certain history gets altered all the time for various reasons. it should probably keep me up at night but it doesn’t.

Cf: “terra nullius”

(and godwin’s law in 10, 9, 8…)

So some people altering history makes it ok for others? Sorry, but I’ve never been a supporter of the ‘two wrongs makes a right’ school of thought.

BTW, I liked the comment about Godwin’s Law – well played.

History isn’t a series of facts. Understanding of history changes on an incredibly regular basis, there’s nothing ‘wrong’ about this.

VYBerlinaV8_is_back3:55 pm 11 Jul 12

devils_advocate said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

devils_advocate said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

So use a different document. Changing a historic record is crazy. History doesn’t change.

You should read this book, it’s called 1984, by George Orwell. Totally awesome.

So you’d be happy for someone to change a legal record because they feel differently later in life?

Dunno if I’d be happy about it, but I’m quite certain history gets altered all the time for various reasons. it should probably keep me up at night but it doesn’t.

Cf: “terra nullius”

(and godwin’s law in 10, 9, 8…)

So some people altering history makes it ok for others? Sorry, but I’ve never been a supporter of the ‘two wrongs makes a right’ school of thought.

BTW, I liked the comment about Godwin’s Law – well played.

One thing that i will say about the intersex/gender community is that they are so easy to kidnap and getting away with it is so easy. I was driving an older model car when i was pulled over the other day by the police. My taped up victim was in the boot making an absolute racket by kicking and punching the inner lining of the boot.
The copper asked me: Whats making that noise in the back of the car?
And i replied; Its the tranny, if you dont take care of them they can make a lot of noise.
And they replied: Oh, all good then, have a nice day.

devils_advocate1:33 pm 11 Jul 12

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

devils_advocate said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

So use a different document. Changing a historic record is crazy. History doesn’t change.

You should read this book, it’s called 1984, by George Orwell. Totally awesome.

So you’d be happy for someone to change a legal record because they feel differently later in life?

Dunno if I’d be happy about it, but I’m quite certain history gets altered all the time for various reasons. it should probably keep me up at night but it doesn’t.

Cf: “terra nullius”

(and godwin’s law in 10, 9, 8…)

Skidbladnir said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

devils_advocate said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

So use a different document. Changing a historic record is crazy. History doesn’t change.

You should read this book, it’s called 1984, by George Orwell. Totally awesome.

So you’d be happy for someone to change a legal record because they feel differently later in life?

I think the objection from those affected is that the ‘historical record’ was wrong at the time and based on certain incorrect assumptions (Male parts mean boy-for-life, female parts mean girl-for-life, having both female and male parts means… best out of three coinflips?) so as far as they are concerned its a correction of documentation rather than a changing of history.

How the hell Samoa and Thailand grant passports to fa’afafini\kathoey, I don’t know.

My understanding is that fa’afafine travel most often on female passports. They are a great example of how the gender binary is not universal. It’s cultural more than biological, and, too often, majority culture is used to overwrite not only minority cultures, but the biological states of those (eg. intersex) in the minority.

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

devils_advocate said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

So use a different document. Changing a historic record is crazy. History doesn’t change.

You should read this book, it’s called 1984, by George Orwell. Totally awesome.

So you’d be happy for someone to change a legal record because they feel differently later in life?

I think the objection from those affected is that the ‘historical record’ was wrong at the time and based on certain incorrect assumptions (Male parts mean boy-for-life, female parts mean girl-for-life, having both female and male parts means… best out of three coinflips?) so as far as they are concerned its a correction of documentation rather than a changing of history.

How the hell Samoa and Thailand grant passports to fa’afafini\kathoey, I don’t know.

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

Kristoff said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

1337Hax0r said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

“amend the Sex Discrimination Act 1984 (Cth) to ensure that the protection against marital
status discrimination applies in the context of married persons seeking to amend their birth
certificates”

A birth certificate is a record of a past event. Unless the parentage is incorrect, why on earth would we wnat people to be able to amend birth certificates?

Because a birth certificate is often required as proof of citizenship which in turn is often required to apply for many jobs and services, like the APS. So presenting a birth certificate seemingly at odds with a person’s gender can and does result in discrimination and harassment.

So use a different document. Changing a historic record is crazy. History doesn’t change.

Unfortunately, a lot of places won’t let you use a different document. Also, if someone is male by brain gender and identity when born, but assigned female by society based on an interpretation of their genitals, how is that not a mistake? How is it wrong to just say that person was male to begin with?

Our sex/gender dualism is so flawed. It makes no sense to cling to it as objective.

First, let me say that I appreciate that the legalities of the situation put you in a very difficult position, and I hope that you get traction to get a good resolution.

However, I still think that changing a historic record is not the way to go. Perhaps the legal solution would be to provide an alternate document (like a marriage license), or to change the law to allow for alternate forms of identification to be provided. For example, a passport is considered proof of citizenship. If you apply for a passport using an alternative to your birth certificate (which will of course need to be defined in law), then could the problem be considered solved?

Also, a passport is really expensive. Why should I be made to pay for an extra form of ID?

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

Kristoff said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

1337Hax0r said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

“amend the Sex Discrimination Act 1984 (Cth) to ensure that the protection against marital
status discrimination applies in the context of married persons seeking to amend their birth
certificates”

A birth certificate is a record of a past event. Unless the parentage is incorrect, why on earth would we wnat people to be able to amend birth certificates?

Because a birth certificate is often required as proof of citizenship which in turn is often required to apply for many jobs and services, like the APS. So presenting a birth certificate seemingly at odds with a person’s gender can and does result in discrimination and harassment.

So use a different document. Changing a historic record is crazy. History doesn’t change.

Unfortunately, a lot of places won’t let you use a different document. Also, if someone is male by brain gender and identity when born, but assigned female by society based on an interpretation of their genitals, how is that not a mistake? How is it wrong to just say that person was male to begin with?

Our sex/gender dualism is so flawed. It makes no sense to cling to it as objective.

First, let me say that I appreciate that the legalities of the situation put you in a very difficult position, and I hope that you get traction to get a good resolution.

However, I still think that changing a historic record is not the way to go. Perhaps the legal solution would be to provide an alternate document (like a marriage license), or to change the law to allow for alternate forms of identification to be provided. For example, a passport is considered proof of citizenship. If you apply for a passport using an alternative to your birth certificate (which will of course need to be defined in law), then could the problem be considered solved?

No, of course not. This still rests on the flawed idea that birth certificates are historical. They’re not. Like I say, they can already be corrected for people who have had surgery. There is no public policy that this process interferes with. Also, the very notion that there is objective sex or gender is academically criticised. The binary is almost a total myth.

Besides, I have never been female. People present at my birth who assumed I was were mistaken, and their mistake should be rectified like any other. The law already recognises mistake for a trans person who has had all the surgery, and uses this as the means to let them correct their certificate. Why not me?

VYBerlinaV8_is_back11:28 am 11 Jul 12

devils_advocate said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

So use a different document. Changing a historic record is crazy. History doesn’t change.

You should read this book, it’s called 1984, by George Orwell. Totally awesome.

So you’d be happy for someone to change a legal record because they feel differently later in life?

VYBerlinaV8_is_back11:21 am 11 Jul 12

Kristoff said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

1337Hax0r said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

“amend the Sex Discrimination Act 1984 (Cth) to ensure that the protection against marital
status discrimination applies in the context of married persons seeking to amend their birth
certificates”

A birth certificate is a record of a past event. Unless the parentage is incorrect, why on earth would we wnat people to be able to amend birth certificates?

Because a birth certificate is often required as proof of citizenship which in turn is often required to apply for many jobs and services, like the APS. So presenting a birth certificate seemingly at odds with a person’s gender can and does result in discrimination and harassment.

So use a different document. Changing a historic record is crazy. History doesn’t change.

Unfortunately, a lot of places won’t let you use a different document. Also, if someone is male by brain gender and identity when born, but assigned female by society based on an interpretation of their genitals, how is that not a mistake? How is it wrong to just say that person was male to begin with?

Our sex/gender dualism is so flawed. It makes no sense to cling to it as objective.

First, let me say that I appreciate that the legalities of the situation put you in a very difficult position, and I hope that you get traction to get a good resolution.

However, I still think that changing a historic record is not the way to go. Perhaps the legal solution would be to provide an alternate document (like a marriage license), or to change the law to allow for alternate forms of identification to be provided. For example, a passport is considered proof of citizenship. If you apply for a passport using an alternative to your birth certificate (which will of course need to be defined in law), then could the problem be considered solved?

devils_advocate11:01 am 11 Jul 12

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

devils_advocate said :

dungfungus said :

I believe the surgical transistion from a “male to female” is rather painful.
While the “nip & tuck” is performed under anethesia, the shrinking of the brain must be carried out while the patient is fully conscious.

I LOL’d.

Apparently there’s also a new procedure for the female to male change, called a strapadicktomy.

yeah the formal name for the above procedure (male to female) is the “lopitoffamy”.

LSWCHP said :

nobody said :

The report strongly suggests you use a term like Sex and Gender Diverse, not “weird”. Some people have always been Sex and Gender Diverse, always have been throughout history and always will be, and are not “screaming” for a “new condition”. According to Wikipedia 1.7% of people can be considered Sex Diverse and 1-2% can be considered Gender Diverse. The numbers could be higher, except Bigots like yourself cause a lot of people to under report. Lastly, Sex and Gender Diverse people also pay taxes and in return, in the very least, would like to be treated equally.

I earlier expressed the view that the resources might have been better spent in other areas that would benefit more people. This resulted in me being called stupid, but que sera sera.

Anyway, I’m not going to trust Wikipedia on this. I might be wrong, but figures of 1-2% of the population for sex and gender diversity seem over inflated to me.

So, how many people are there in the ACT who are sex or gender diverse and will benefit from this?

Hundreds, by my reckoning. Ask A Genda Agenda.

Also, to back up the person in italics, nobody is screaming for a new condition. We just want the recognition that has been due to us all along. These reforms cost nothing. If we want to change our birth certificates (to legitimately correct a mistake, in line with Australian laws that already permit this, albeit only with surgery), that affects no-one else. Nothing we are doing is inconsistent with other public agendas. The only thing that stands in our way is hatred.

devils_advocate10:59 am 11 Jul 12

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

So use a different document. Changing a historic record is crazy. History doesn’t change.

You should read this book, it’s called 1984, by George Orwell. Totally awesome.

I-filed said :

Kristoff said :

Would you rather live somewhere with genocide where the trains run on time?

You are equating anyone who regards “altering the law for sex/gender diverse people to be able to amend their birth certificates” as a worthwhile issue to deal with, but not something that is front-of-mind ahead of, say, hospital care or road safety – with people who are advocates of genocide? That sort of rhetoric is plain irresponsible. No wonder many people (albeit quite wrongly) think of this issue as belonging with the loony ultra-left and Sarah Hanson-Young!

I honestly do think human rights and human dignity should come before improved public transport. That should be a non-issue. When you belong to a minority suffering from the kind of entrenched discimination that faces trans and intersex people, anyone who contributes to that inertia might as well be fully against you.

Additionally, because this reform will cost nothing, it is not at odds with road and hospital reform. To make the argument that trans people should be ignored in favour of buses therefore implies the kind of arbitrary hatred the Nazis would have been proud of.

Mr Gillespie said :

With regards to funding:

Example 1: medical costs.

Who does Simon propose to have pay the medical costs of dealing with the wishes of people who wish to identify themselves as neither male nor female? Does the “3rd-gender” person wish to have her penis or his vagina removed as elective surgery, or is covered by Medicare?

Example 2: Toilet facilities.

Who is going to pay to build a third separate toilet block to accommodate these people? Or are we going to at last see the end of separate “male” and “female” toilet blocks?

1) Trans people currently foot tens of thousands of dollars worth of their own bills for surgery. This report is not about that. I am happy to foot my own bills. I just want the right to do so.

2) Most trans and intersex people use the current facilities. This report is likewise not about demolishing all the existing toilets (even if they are heteronormative and foster the notion that everybody is either man or a woman). What rubbish.

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

1337Hax0r said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

“amend the Sex Discrimination Act 1984 (Cth) to ensure that the protection against marital
status discrimination applies in the context of married persons seeking to amend their birth
certificates”

A birth certificate is a record of a past event. Unless the parentage is incorrect, why on earth would we wnat people to be able to amend birth certificates?

Because a birth certificate is often required as proof of citizenship which in turn is often required to apply for many jobs and services, like the APS. So presenting a birth certificate seemingly at odds with a person’s gender can and does result in discrimination and harassment.

So use a different document. Changing a historic record is crazy. History doesn’t change.

Unfortunately, a lot of places won’t let you use a different document. Also, if someone is male by brain gender and identity when born, but assigned female by society based on an interpretation of their genitals, how is that not a mistake? How is it wrong to just say that person was male to begin with?

Our sex/gender dualism is so flawed. It makes no sense to cling to it as objective.

Mysteryman said :

Skidbladnir said :

For mine, the standout of this report is against the original Iasues Paper, the number of times that Australian Christian Lobby expressed an opinion, and the number of times they were referred to in the proposal (just once, in relation to enshrining the status quo so long as transgenderism is considered a clinical disorder).

Mysteryman said :

What services do they not currently have access to?

When in doubt, read?
(Below quoted from the ACT Law Reform Advisory Council, and in the above document)

While Australia does have systems that enable the record on official documents to be changed,
not all people in the sex and gender diverse communities can make use of those systems. For example the systems may:
> not allow people who are married to change some or all of their documents.
> not allow a change without having undergone reassignment surgery.
> not offer legal recognition for people who do not identify as strictly male or female.

In March 2009, the AHRC published the Sex Files report,26 saying at 4.1: ‘Sex and/or gender identity defines a person’s sense of self and positions them in a social and political context. Every person has the right for their sex and/or gender identity to be recognised and respected’.

The report made 15 recommendations:

1- Marital status should not be a relevant consideration as to whether or not a person can request a change in legal sex.

2- The definition of sex affirmation treatment should be broadened so that surgery is not the only criteria for a change in legal sex.

3- The evidentiary requirements for the legal recognition of sex should be relaxed by reducing the quantity of medical evidence required and making greater allowance for people to self-identify their sex.

4- The special needs of children and young people who wish to amend their documents and records should be considered.

5- A person over the age of 18 years should be able to choose to have an unspecified sex noted on documents and records.

6- Information on the process and criteria for the legal recognition of sex should be easily accessible and user-friendly.

7- Documents of identity and processes required for the legal recognition of sex should not reveal personal information about a person’s past identity in relation to sex.

8- Laws and processes for the legal recognition of sex should use empowering terminology.

9- Where possible, sex or gender should be removed from government forms and documents.

10- The federal government should consider the development of national guidelines concerning the collection of sex and gender information from individuals.

11- The federal government should take a leadership role in ensuring that there is a nationally
consistent approach to the legal recognition of sex in accordance with the recommendations of
this paper, by either:

i- working cooperatively with state and territory governments through the Council of Australian Governments (COAG) process to amend their respective legislation and policies in line with
the recommendations in this paper, particularly in relation to birth certificates, or
ii- establishing a national board with responsibility for receiving and determining applications
for official recognition of a change in sex………as well as securing agreement from states and territories to recognise certificates of recognition issued by such a board.

12- The federal government should consider establishing a national office to advise and assist the public and federal government in relation to changing legal recognition of sex, as an alternative or
precursor to the national board put forward in Recommendation 11.

13- In the event that Recommendation 11 fails to result in sufficient support from state and territory governments, the federal government should consider legislation to:

i- amend the Sex Discrimination Act 1984 (Cth) to ensure that the protection against marital
status discrimination applies in the context of married persons seeking to amend their birth
certificates, to effectively override the existing discrimination under state and territory births
registration legislation
ii- establish a minimum national standard in respect of legal recognition of sex in documents
and government records in line with the recommendations in this paper.

14- The federal government should harmonise policies, procedures and legislation relevant to the legal recognition of sex in federal documents and records.

15- The federal government should take immediate steps to ensure that all federal government
departments and agencies provide clear and accessible information relevant to legal recognition
of sex in documents and records and how those documents and records can be amended, such
as by including a page on the department or agency’s website dedicated to this topic.

Thanks for all the information. None of those sound like services, though. The way the statement read was that transgendered people are being denied access to services. It doesn’t appear that’s the case at all… or did I miss something?

Mysteryman said :

Skidbladnir said :

For mine, the standout of this report is against the original Iasues Paper, the number of times that Australian Christian Lobby expressed an opinion, and the number of times they were referred to in the proposal (just once, in relation to enshrining the status quo so long as transgenderism is considered a clinical disorder).

Mysteryman said :

What services do they not currently have access to?

When in doubt, read?
(Below quoted from the ACT Law Reform Advisory Council, and in the above document)

While Australia does have systems that enable the record on official documents to be changed,
not all people in the sex and gender diverse communities can make use of those systems. For example the systems may:
> not allow people who are married to change some or all of their documents.
> not allow a change without having undergone reassignment surgery.
> not offer legal recognition for people who do not identify as strictly male or female.

In March 2009, the AHRC published the Sex Files report,26 saying at 4.1: ‘Sex and/or gender identity defines a person’s sense of self and positions them in a social and political context. Every person has the right for their sex and/or gender identity to be recognised and respected’.

The report made 15 recommendations:

1- Marital status should not be a relevant consideration as to whether or not a person can request a change in legal sex.

2- The definition of sex affirmation treatment should be broadened so that surgery is not the only criteria for a change in legal sex.

3- The evidentiary requirements for the legal recognition of sex should be relaxed by reducing the quantity of medical evidence required and making greater allowance for people to self-identify their sex.

4- The special needs of children and young people who wish to amend their documents and records should be considered.

5- A person over the age of 18 years should be able to choose to have an unspecified sex noted on documents and records.

6- Information on the process and criteria for the legal recognition of sex should be easily accessible and user-friendly.

7- Documents of identity and processes required for the legal recognition of sex should not reveal personal information about a person’s past identity in relation to sex.

8- Laws and processes for the legal recognition of sex should use empowering terminology.

9- Where possible, sex or gender should be removed from government forms and documents.

10- The federal government should consider the development of national guidelines concerning the collection of sex and gender information from individuals.

11- The federal government should take a leadership role in ensuring that there is a nationally
consistent approach to the legal recognition of sex in accordance with the recommendations of
this paper, by either:

i- working cooperatively with state and territory governments through the Council of Australian Governments (COAG) process to amend their respective legislation and policies in line with
the recommendations in this paper, particularly in relation to birth certificates, or
ii- establishing a national board with responsibility for receiving and determining applications
for official recognition of a change in sex………as well as securing agreement from states and territories to recognise certificates of recognition issued by such a board.

12- The federal government should consider establishing a national office to advise and assist the public and federal government in relation to changing legal recognition of sex, as an alternative or
precursor to the national board put forward in Recommendation 11.

13- In the event that Recommendation 11 fails to result in sufficient support from state and territory governments, the federal government should consider legislation to:

i- amend the Sex Discrimination Act 1984 (Cth) to ensure that the protection against marital
status discrimination applies in the context of married persons seeking to amend their birth
certificates, to effectively override the existing discrimination under state and territory births
registration legislation
ii- establish a minimum national standard in respect of legal recognition of sex in documents
and government records in line with the recommendations in this paper.

14- The federal government should harmonise policies, procedures and legislation relevant to the legal recognition of sex in federal documents and records.

15- The federal government should take immediate steps to ensure that all federal government
departments and agencies provide clear and accessible information relevant to legal recognition
of sex in documents and records and how those documents and records can be amended, such
as by including a page on the department or agency’s website dedicated to this topic.

Thanks for all the information. None of those sound like services, though. The way the statement read was that transgendered people are being denied access to services. It doesn’t appear that’s the case at all… or did I miss something?

A lot of doctors can’t or won’t see us. I travel to Sydney just to see a GP. Most GPs I talk to who are obliged to give me referrals to specialists don’t feel comfortable or don’t know how. I also think not being able to change your birth certificate (and have 100 points of ID to access other services) is problematic.

Finally, the fact that my ID shows me for what I am has got me excluded from pubs and clubs, even though this is illegal. This is because of the lack of awareness about trans people, and the fact that so few give a toss about us.

VYBerlinaV8_is_back10:38 am 11 Jul 12

devils_advocate said :

dungfungus said :

I believe the surgical transistion from a “male to female” is rather painful.
While the “nip & tuck” is performed under anethesia, the shrinking of the brain must be carried out while the patient is fully conscious.

I LOL’d.

Apparently there’s also a new procedure for the female to male change, called a strapadicktomy.

devils_advocate10:28 am 11 Jul 12

dungfungus said :

I believe the surgical transistion from a “male to female” is rather painful.
While the “nip & tuck” is performed under anethesia, the shrinking of the brain must be carried out while the patient is fully conscious.

I LOL’d.

VYBerlinaV8_is_back9:13 am 11 Jul 12

1337Hax0r said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

“amend the Sex Discrimination Act 1984 (Cth) to ensure that the protection against marital
status discrimination applies in the context of married persons seeking to amend their birth
certificates”

A birth certificate is a record of a past event. Unless the parentage is incorrect, why on earth would we wnat people to be able to amend birth certificates?

Because a birth certificate is often required as proof of citizenship which in turn is often required to apply for many jobs and services, like the APS. So presenting a birth certificate seemingly at odds with a person’s gender can and does result in discrimination and harassment.

So use a different document. Changing a historic record is crazy. History doesn’t change.

nobody said :

The report strongly suggests you use a term like Sex and Gender Diverse, not “weird”. Some people have always been Sex and Gender Diverse, always have been throughout history and always will be, and are not “screaming” for a “new condition”. According to Wikipedia 1.7% of people can be considered Sex Diverse and 1-2% can be considered Gender Diverse. The numbers could be higher, except Bigots like yourself cause a lot of people to under report. Lastly, Sex and Gender Diverse people also pay taxes and in return, in the very least, would like to be treated equally.

I earlier expressed the view that the resources might have been better spent in other areas that would benefit more people. This resulted in me being called stupid, but que sera sera.

Anyway, I’m not going to trust Wikipedia on this. I might be wrong, but figures of 1-2% of the population for sex and gender diversity seem over inflated to me.

So, how many people are there in the ACT who are sex or gender diverse and will benefit from this?

Kristoff said :

Would you rather live somewhere with genocide where the trains run on time?

You are equating anyone who regards “altering the law for sex/gender diverse people to be able to amend their birth certificates” as a worthwhile issue to deal with, but not something that is front-of-mind ahead of, say, hospital care or road safety – with people who are advocates of genocide? That sort of rhetoric is plain irresponsible. No wonder many people (albeit quite wrongly) think of this issue as belonging with the loony ultra-left and Sarah Hanson-Young!

If The Sex Discrimination Act is to be amended then it will have to be renamed the “X” Discrimination Act

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

“amend the Sex Discrimination Act 1984 (Cth) to ensure that the protection against marital
status discrimination applies in the context of married persons seeking to amend their birth
certificates”

A birth certificate is a record of a past event. Unless the parentage is incorrect, why on earth would we wnat people to be able to amend birth certificates?

Because a birth certificate is often required as proof of citizenship which in turn is often required to apply for many jobs and services, like the APS. So presenting a birth certificate seemingly at odds with a person’s gender can and does result in discrimination and harassment.

Here_and_Now said :

All this, and the capitalisation is off, too. The English teachers are copping it as well as the gender diverse.

(A transgendered English teacher would probably be very unhappy indeed!)

Unless they were in Queensland, where it is still illegal for Transgendered and Intersex people to be teachers. Yeah, that’s right, in Queensland, someone BORN with a medical condition which makes them Intersex, can’t work with children by law, where as priests can. It seems someone got their priorities wrong in the banana state.

Mr Gillespie6:52 pm 10 Jul 12

What do you mean they are “forced” to go into hospital to be recognised? Why can’t they just accept the fact they are either male or female? How is it a matter of life and death?

c_c said :

Mr Gillespie said :

With regards to funding:

Example 1: medical costs.

Who does Simon propose to have pay the medical costs of dealing with the wishes of people who wish to identify themselves as neither male nor female? Does the “3rd-gender” person wish to have her penis or his vagina removed as elective surgery, or is covered by Medicare?

Under the current system in order to be recognises, these people are forced to enter the hospital system (and the mental health system as a prerequisite) in order to be recognised. Because there is a requirement for gender reassignment to be done, a cost is incurred already.

What the reforms do is remove that requirement, therefore having the potential to reduce the cost and demand on the system.

I believe the surgical transistion from a “male to female” is rather painful.
While the “nip & tuck” is performed under anethesia, the shrinking of the brain must be carried out while the patient is fully conscious.

Mr Gillespie said :

With regards to funding:

Example 1: medical costs.

Who does Simon propose to have pay the medical costs of dealing with the wishes of people who wish to identify themselves as neither male nor female? Does the “3rd-gender” person wish to have her penis or his vagina removed as elective surgery, or is covered by Medicare?

Under the current system in order to be recognises, these people are forced to enter the hospital system (and the mental health system as a prerequisite) in order to be recognised. Because there is a requirement for gender reassignment to be done, a cost is incurred already.

What the reforms do is remove that requirement, therefore having the potential to reduce the cost and demand on the system.

Mr Gillespie5:11 pm 10 Jul 12

With regards to funding:

Example 1: medical costs.

Who does Simon propose to have pay the medical costs of dealing with the wishes of people who wish to identify themselves as neither male nor female? Does the “3rd-gender” person wish to have her penis or his vagina removed as elective surgery, or is covered by Medicare?

Example 2: Toilet facilities.

Who is going to pay to build a third separate toilet block to accommodate these people? Or are we going to at last see the end of separate “male” and “female” toilet blocks?

Mr Gillespie said :

How many is “some people”? And do they really “need” it, or do they just “want” it so bad they say they “need” it? Plus the proportion of people screaming to be recognised as some new 3rd condition of a binary yes/no male/female condition must be pretty small compared to the amount of public money we all have to pay via our taxes to support their weird “new gender”.

How am I not surprised by this, from The RiotACT’s cartoonish equivalent of Quagmire and Peter Griffin all in one.

How do you figure it will cost any public money to support this?

Seriously let’s face it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB7BWvD5B5Y&t=13s

Antagonist said :

nobody said :

a substantial minority … A substantial minority …

substantial: adjective – large in amount, value or importance
minority: noun – a small group within a community or country that is different because of race, religion, language etc.

You are talking out of your gender neutral @rse.

Couldn’t say 25% of a group be called both minority and substantial?

nobody said :

a substantial minority … A substantial minority …

substantial: adjective – large in amount, value or importance
minority: noun – a small group within a community or country that is different because of race, religion, language etc.

You are talking out of your gender neutral @rse.

nobody said :

Antagonist said :

nobody said :

Antagonist said :

Introductory Biology:

Y chromosome present: male
Y chromosome absent: female

I going to guess you know little about biology and certainly don’t teach it. Knowledge is available, if only you make a little effort and look.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex#Conditions

Your attempt to reference de la Chapelle Syndrome is tenuous at best.

Now you have had a look at the information you will understand their are many reasons behind Sex Diversity and there are many more differences listed than just the one you mentioned.

I think we should let other readers decide if your “101” statement that people are male or female is valid, or if the link listing the many sex differences is a better lesson.

You won’t convince them by linking to Wikipedia. Especially Wiki articles that are unreferenced, lack citation, or point to advocacy groups that disappeared several years ago. It is notoriously inaccurate and unreliable.

I also call plagiarism on your post at #32. Unless you authored the wiki entry that several of your sentences come from ???

VYBerlinaV8_is_back3:53 pm 10 Jul 12

nobody said :

johnboy said :

Can an individual be diverse? (linguistically speaking)

Yes, an individual can be unlike or different to the vast majority.

In regards to Physical Sex, Gender Identity, and Sexual Orientation, the vast majority are either male/man/hetero or female/woman/hetro, but there are a substantial minority who are diverse from these 2 dominant groups. A substantial minority are Sex, or Gender, or Orientation Diverse (SoGoOD), and these people are slightly diverse individuals. Sex Diverse (Intersex, Transsexual etc), or Gender Diverse (Transgender, Intergender, etc), or Orientation Diverse, (Lesbian, Gay, Bi, etc) people are different to the majority in minor ways but similar to the majority in many more ways, and are diverse.

There are also a few more people who can be described as Neither Obvious Type of Sex, or Gender, or Orientation Diverse (NOTSoGoOD)…

neanderthalsis3:47 pm 10 Jul 12

nobody said :

johnboy said :

Can an individual be diverse? (linguistically speaking)

Yes, an individual can be unlike or different to the vast majority.

In regards to Physical Sex, Gender Identity, and Sexual Orientation, the vast majority are either male/man/hetero or female/woman/hetro, but there are a substantial minority who are diverse from these 2 dominant groups. A substantial minority are Sex, or Gender, or Orientation Diverse (SoGoOD), and these people are slightly diverse individuals. Sex Diverse (Intersex, Transsexual etc), or Gender Diverse (Transgender, Intergender, etc), or Orientation Diverse, (Lesbian, Gay, Bi, etc) people are different to the majority in minor ways but similar to the majority in many more ways, and are diverse.

You seem to be mistaking diverse with different. JB asked whether an individual can be diverse. In the pure linguistic sense, the singular cannot be diverse, it can, however, be different.

I begin to wonder if the gender studies department hasn’t wandered off the reservation with their use of “diverse”. It happens.

johnboy said :

Can an individual be diverse? (linguistically speaking)

Yes, an individual can be unlike or different to the vast majority.

In regards to Physical Sex, Gender Identity, and Sexual Orientation, the vast majority are either male/man/hetero or female/woman/hetro, but there are a substantial minority who are diverse from these 2 dominant groups. A substantial minority are Sex, or Gender, or Orientation Diverse (SoGoOD), and these people are slightly diverse individuals. Sex Diverse (Intersex, Transsexual etc), or Gender Diverse (Transgender, Intergender, etc), or Orientation Diverse, (Lesbian, Gay, Bi, etc) people are different to the majority in minor ways but similar to the majority in many more ways, and are diverse.

Mr Gillespie3:34 pm 10 Jul 12

nobody said :

….The report strongly suggests you use a term like Sex and Gender Diverse, not “weird”. Some people have always been Sex and Gender Diverse, always have been throughout history and always will be, and are not “screaming” for a “new condition”. According to Wikipedia 1.7% of people can be considered Sex Diverse and 1-2% can be considered Gender Diverse. The numbers could be higher, except Bigots like yourself cause a lot of people to under report. Lastly, Sex and Gender Diverse people also pay taxes and in return, in the very least, would like to be treated equally.

Oh sorry, I used the wrong word. My apologies for the vernacular “weird”. Just that I think it is weird that you can be anything other than “male” or “female” I mean have you ever seen public toilets marked with something other than MEN or WOMEN? And body searches by Customs, police or prison authorities, is that going to be modified to suit this so-called “third gender”?? What other gender-based frameworks in society do you want modified to suit this new regime Simon wants to push on the ACT (the social guinea pig state of the social guinea pig country of the world), and how much money are you prepared on such infrastructure modifications?

neanderthalsis2:58 pm 10 Jul 12

johnboy said :

Can an individual be diverse? (linguistically speaking)

Unless they are polymorphous, then no. The sex and gender diverse are technically homomorphous and not diverse at all.

Mr Gillespie said :

Here_and_Now said :

Mr Gillespie said :

Another “reform” we don’t need, this is getting out of control. ACT (Labor/Greens Coalition) Self Government is becoming the laughing stock of Australia!

When you say ‘we don’t need’, do you mean society at large or are you using the royal we? I think if you’ll read the report, you’ll see how they’re very much needed for some people.

How many is “some people”? And do they really “need” it, or do they just “want” it so bad they say they “need” it? Plus the proportion of people screaming to be recognised as some new 3rd condition of a binary yes/no male/female condition must be pretty small compared to the amount of public money we all have to pay via our taxes to support their weird “new gender”.

The report strongly suggests you use a term like Sex and Gender Diverse, not “weird”. Some people have always been Sex and Gender Diverse, always have been throughout history and always will be, and are not “screaming” for a “new condition”. According to Wikipedia 1.7% of people can be considered Sex Diverse and 1-2% can be considered Gender Diverse. The numbers could be higher, except Bigots like yourself cause a lot of people to under report. Lastly, Sex and Gender Diverse people also pay taxes and in return, in the very least, would like to be treated equally.

Can an individual be diverse? (linguistically speaking)

Antagonist said :

nobody said :

Antagonist said :

Introductory Biology:

Y chromosome present: male
Y chromosome absent: female

I going to guess you know little about biology and certainly don’t teach it. Knowledge is available, if only you make a little effort and look.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex#Conditions

Your attempt to reference de la Chapelle Syndrome is tenuous at best.

Now you have had a look at the information you will understand their are many reasons behind Sex Diversity and there are many more differences listed than just the one you mentioned.

I think we should let other readers decide if your “101” statement that people are male or female is valid, or if the link listing the many sex differences is a better lesson.

Mr Gillespie1:38 pm 10 Jul 12

Here_and_Now said :

Mr Gillespie said :

Another “reform” we don’t need, this is getting out of control. ACT (Labor/Greens Coalition) Self Government is becoming the laughing stock of Australia!

When you say ‘we don’t need’, do you mean society at large or are you using the royal we? I think if you’ll read the report, you’ll see how they’re very much needed for some people.

How many is “some people”? And do they really “need” it, or do they just “want” it so bad they say they “need” it? Plus the proportion of people screaming to be recognised as some new 3rd condition of a binary yes/no male/female condition must be pretty small compared to the amount of public money we all have to pay via our taxes to support their weird “new gender”.

Mysteryman said :

I’m at work and don’t have the time to spend reading 50 pages of documentation.

And in this thread, it is clearly the people who havent read the policy doco or any background to it, who believe their argument from ignorance beats any based on relevant or expert knowledge.

That other elements are arguing for a tyranny of the majority is also giving me the s***s, but for different reasons.

Skidbladnir said :

Mysteryman said :

I’m lazy and reading is hard.

1) Just because there’s a quote button, it doesn’t mean you can just hit it and not edit.
2) Read the fucking policy doco.

I’m at work and don’t have the time to spend reading 50 pages of documentation. I was hoping someone intelligent would be able to fill in the blanks in the meantime. Clearly that’s not you. No need to act like a jerk.

nobody said :

Antagonist said :

Introductory Biology:

Y chromosome present: male
Y chromosome absent: female

I going to guess you know little about biology and certainly don’t teach it. Knowledge is available, if only you make a little effort and look.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex#Conditions

Your attempt to reference de la Chapelle Syndrome is tenuous at best.

Deref said :

Antagonist said :

Introductory Biology:

Y chromosome present: male
Y chromosome absent: female

That’s sex, not gender.

The OP talks about both sex and gender. Thank you for reinforcing my point genius.

Mysteryman said :

I’m lazy and reading is hard.

1) Just because there’s a quote button, it doesn’t mean you can just hit it and not edit.
2) Read the fucking policy doco.

VYBerlinaV8_is_back11:41 am 10 Jul 12

“amend the Sex Discrimination Act 1984 (Cth) to ensure that the protection against marital
status discrimination applies in the context of married persons seeking to amend their birth
certificates”

A birth certificate is a record of a past event. Unless the parentage is incorrect, why on earth would we wnat people to be able to amend birth certificates?

Skidbladnir said :

For mine, the standout of this report is against the original Iasues Paper, the number of times that Australian Christian Lobby expressed an opinion, and the number of times they were referred to in the proposal (just once, in relation to enshrining the status quo so long as transgenderism is considered a clinical disorder).

Mysteryman said :

What services do they not currently have access to?

When in doubt, read?
(Below quoted from the ACT Law Reform Advisory Council, and in the above document)

While Australia does have systems that enable the record on official documents to be changed,
not all people in the sex and gender diverse communities can make use of those systems. For example the systems may:
> not allow people who are married to change some or all of their documents.
> not allow a change without having undergone reassignment surgery.
> not offer legal recognition for people who do not identify as strictly male or female.

In March 2009, the AHRC published the Sex Files report,26 saying at 4.1: ‘Sex and/or gender identity defines a person’s sense of self and positions them in a social and political context. Every person has the right for their sex and/or gender identity to be recognised and respected’.

The report made 15 recommendations:

1- Marital status should not be a relevant consideration as to whether or not a person can request a change in legal sex.

2- The definition of sex affirmation treatment should be broadened so that surgery is not the only criteria for a change in legal sex.

3- The evidentiary requirements for the legal recognition of sex should be relaxed by reducing the quantity of medical evidence required and making greater allowance for people to self-identify their sex.

4- The special needs of children and young people who wish to amend their documents and records should be considered.

5- A person over the age of 18 years should be able to choose to have an unspecified sex noted on documents and records.

6- Information on the process and criteria for the legal recognition of sex should be easily accessible and user-friendly.

7- Documents of identity and processes required for the legal recognition of sex should not reveal personal information about a person’s past identity in relation to sex.

8- Laws and processes for the legal recognition of sex should use empowering terminology.

9- Where possible, sex or gender should be removed from government forms and documents.

10- The federal government should consider the development of national guidelines concerning the collection of sex and gender information from individuals.

11- The federal government should take a leadership role in ensuring that there is a nationally
consistent approach to the legal recognition of sex in accordance with the recommendations of
this paper, by either:

i- working cooperatively with state and territory governments through the Council of Australian Governments (COAG) process to amend their respective legislation and policies in line with
the recommendations in this paper, particularly in relation to birth certificates, or
ii- establishing a national board with responsibility for receiving and determining applications
for official recognition of a change in sex………as well as securing agreement from states and territories to recognise certificates of recognition issued by such a board.

12- The federal government should consider establishing a national office to advise and assist the public and federal government in relation to changing legal recognition of sex, as an alternative or
precursor to the national board put forward in Recommendation 11.

13- In the event that Recommendation 11 fails to result in sufficient support from state and territory governments, the federal government should consider legislation to:

i- amend the Sex Discrimination Act 1984 (Cth) to ensure that the protection against marital
status discrimination applies in the context of married persons seeking to amend their birth
certificates, to effectively override the existing discrimination under state and territory births
registration legislation
ii- establish a minimum national standard in respect of legal recognition of sex in documents
and government records in line with the recommendations in this paper.

14- The federal government should harmonise policies, procedures and legislation relevant to the legal recognition of sex in federal documents and records.

15- The federal government should take immediate steps to ensure that all federal government
departments and agencies provide clear and accessible information relevant to legal recognition
of sex in documents and records and how those documents and records can be amended, such
as by including a page on the department or agency’s website dedicated to this topic.

Thanks for all the information. None of those sound like services, though. The way the statement read was that transgendered people are being denied access to services. It doesn’t appear that’s the case at all… or did I miss something?

PBO said :

If the Government enacted some of these initiatives quietly, by just doing it instead of making a fanfare out of it so local politicians can get their names out there, then i believe that there would be a lot more acceptance.

That goes for almost every single thing that governments are supposed to do. But they always want approval for doing little things that are part of their core jobs.

Here_and_Now said :

Mr Gillespie said :

Another “reform” we don’t need, this is getting out of control. ACT (Labor/Greens Coalition) Self Government is becoming the laughing stock of Australia!

When you say ‘we don’t need’, do you mean society at large or are you using the royal we? I think if you’ll read the report, you’ll see how they’re very much needed for some people.

When Mr Gillespie turns himself into a paraplegic after crashing his car into a tree he will probably start to learn why the rights of minorities need to be protected. Until then we should just ignore the troll.

devils_advocate said :

dungfungus said :

I am totally ambivalent about this issue.

+1.

Wait, did I just +1 ambivalence? is this going to break teh internets?

Ambivalence isn’t apathy.

It is having mixed feelings or contradictory opinions on a topic.

devils_advocate9:24 am 10 Jul 12

dungfungus said :

I am totally ambivalent about this issue.

+1.

Wait, did I just +1 ambivalence? is this going to break teh internets?

Kristoff said :

PBO said :

Whats next, diversity in prisons? Sorry, i don’t think so….

FFS, think about the majority for once and what we want as opposed to what a few individuals get uppity about. Constantly waving these issues in peoples faces is what causes motions against them.

If you have a penis, you are a man
If you have a vagina, you are a woman
If you have both then you can go F#### yourself and pick a proper toilet.

Also, ‘think of the majority’… Who do you think we’ve been thinking about in the whole history of gender relations up until now? It’s people like you who oppress trans and intersex people to the point of calling them improper who have been favoured for the past 110 years of our government.

Your whole argument is based on arbitrary hate. There is absolutely no reason not to give trans and intersex people the right of recognition. We suffered for your heteronormativity for over a century. Step back for five ungrateful minutes and throw us one bone.

Flame ignited and discussion achieved!

LOL, I have no hate for the intersex or intergenders whatsoever. Sometimes a little zing is needed to get a thread interesting. My remark about minorities/majorities simply means that the government should sometimes step back and think of the majority when thrusting minority issues before us.

If the Government enacted some of these initiatives quietly, by just doing it instead of making a fanfare out of it so local politicians can get their names out there, then i believe that there would be a lot more acceptance.

Here_and_Now8:37 am 10 Jul 12

Mr Gillespie said :

Another “reform” we don’t need, this is getting out of control. ACT (Labor/Greens Coalition) Self Government is becoming the laughing stock of Australia!

When you say ‘we don’t need’, do you mean society at large or are you using the royal we? I think if you’ll read the report, you’ll see how they’re very much needed for some people.

The thing is, fixing this is something you can do once, sink the cost, and it’s right and everybody can get on with their lives.

Fixing Action, or the Hospitals, or the Police … nobody in the world knows how to work one of these things in a way that is “fixed”. People will complain about them no matter what – really. Everywhere. People complain about public transport, about hospitals, about the cops, about teachers, about any of the services which cost money every year, year in, year out. So saying “well, you haven’t fixed that yet”… if you can define what “fixed” would be, and find a cost-effective way of achieving that … hell, you got my vote. But until that time … you’re posting a stupid comment and I will call you stupid.

Mr Gillespie6:38 am 10 Jul 12

Another “reform” we don’t need, this is getting out of control. ACT (Labor/Greens Coalition) Self Government is becoming the laughing stock of Australia!

milkman said :

dungfungus said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

dungfungus said :

PBO said :

I for one will not be supporting the construction of a 3rd toilet for these ppl, who knows what the symbol on the door would be.

It would be chaos in pubs for those who want to eat, drink and be mary…..

Oh the dilemma; to stand or sit.

Squat?

Try standing on a toilet pedestal when you have a skinful and then squat.

As in top decking?

It used to be called ‘kangarooing the dyke’ when I were a lad but in this thread it seems perhaps inappropriate

I-filed said :

It’s easy to look after the “little isms” with a splash of PR. While happy to see transgendered people’s need for affirmation and support looked after, what is the Labor Government doing about the gap between men’s and women’s pay? About discrimination against old people? Issues that are affecting large percentages of the population are ignored (despite Labor believing it is a progressive-values party) while these much, much smaller issues are focused on. It’s just trendoid politics.

I feel the same way. It’s nice for those involved to have issues like this addressed, but we have finite resources. I think that there are issues such as those IF mentions that affect more people but have resources diverted away from them by the effort spent on issues such as this.

I’m not saying this is worthless, but I wonder how much this cost, and whether the money would’ve been better spent on better health care, school resources, public transport etc.

To be fair to JB, not many people think about small, plastic, handheld radios these days.

I’m an old fart who has actually owned transistor radios, and that’s (no s***) what I thought this was about at first, which made me feel particularly dim when I read the OP.

What? Still no posts hating on cyclists? A thread about recognising an oppressed minority is ripe for the plucking, surely???

Kristoff said :

PantsMan said :

Do ACTION buses run on time yet?

This Government’s priorities are just f*^ked-up!

Yes, how horrible that we are reviewing human rights to provide administrative processes that will cost nothing and enable people to evade years of suffering and suicide.

Would you rather live somewhere with genocide where the trains run on time?

Public transport and gender recognition are not mutually exclusive.

PantsMan said :

Do ACTION buses run on time yet?

This thread doesn’t seem to be about transport. It appears to be about trannie-sport..

Antagonist said :

Introductory Biology:

Y chromosome present: male
Y chromosome absent: female

That’s sex, not gender.

I rebelled against using a grammatical term to define people for a long time, but I came to accept “gender” as the social construct – the social or personal identification, as opposed to the biological situation. As such, I think it has value. The problem is that so many people use “gender” when they really mean “sex”. Rarely, strangely, does it happen the other way around.

Kristoff said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

The real question is HOW gender could be legally recognised. Drivers license? Passport?

Basically, changing gender on legal documents- so yes, passport and driver’s license, but more importantly, birth certificate and bank accounts.

Additionally, if trans people are not able to change their legal gender, they face other heteronormative forms of discrimination, such as being unable to marry their partners.

The other thing is that, currently, transgender people are not recognised as legally having their gender because they are treated like people with a mental illness, and made to jump hurdles of approval from psychiatrists, GPs (most of whom are bigoted) and others in order to do simple things like pay out of their own pockets for reversible surgery.

Being trans means being a second-class citizen.

We shouldn’t be allowing birth certificates to be changed, as they are a record of birth. Regardless of a person’s gender later in life, their gender at the time of birth doesn’t change.

Antagonist said :

Introductory Biology:

Y chromosome present: male
Y chromosome absent: female

I going to guess you know little about biology and certainly don’t teach it. Knowledge is available, if only you make a little effort and look.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex#Conditions

dungfungus said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

dungfungus said :

PBO said :

I for one will not be supporting the construction of a 3rd toilet for these ppl, who knows what the symbol on the door would be.

It would be chaos in pubs for those who want to eat, drink and be mary…..

Oh the dilemma; to stand or sit.

Squat?

Try standing on a toilet pedestal when you have a skinful and then squat.

As in top decking?

It’s easy to look after the “little isms” with a splash of PR. While happy to see transgendered people’s need for affirmation and support looked after, what is the Labor Government doing about the gap between men’s and women’s pay? About discrimination against old people? Issues that are affecting large percentages of the population are ignored (despite Labor believing it is a progressive-values party) while these much, much smaller issues are focused on. It’s just trendoid politics.

PBO said :

Whats next, diversity in prisons? Sorry, i don’t think so….

FFS, think about the majority for once and what we want as opposed to what a few individuals get uppity about. Constantly waving these issues in peoples faces is what causes motions against them.

If you have a penis, you are a man
If you have a vagina, you are a woman
If you have both then you can go F#### yourself and pick a proper toilet.

Also, ‘think of the majority’… Who do you think we’ve been thinking about in the whole history of gender relations up until now? It’s people like you who oppress trans and intersex people to the point of calling them improper who have been favoured for the past 110 years of our government.

Your whole argument is based on arbitrary hate. There is absolutely no reason not to give trans and intersex people the right of recognition. We suffered for your heteronormativity for over a century. Step back for five ungrateful minutes and throw us one bone.

Here_and_Now6:33 pm 09 Jul 12

PBO said :

FFS, think about the majority for once and what we want as opposed to what a few individuals get uppity about. Constantly waving these issues in peoples faces is what causes motions against them.

And what is that the ‘majority’ wants here?

Do this ‘majority’ want to abuse the gender diverse? To harm or neglect them?

If that is the case, would this ‘majority’ wanting it make it OK? (Hint: No.)

It doesn’t sound like you’ve consulted the ‘majority’ at all.

PantsMan said :

Do ACTION buses run on time yet?

This Government’s priorities are just f*^ked-up!

Yes, how horrible that we are reviewing human rights to provide administrative processes that will cost nothing and enable people to evade years of suffering and suicide.

Would you rather live somewhere with genocide where the trains run on time?

I’m going to suggest that the headline is meant to get people clicking. Because I would very much hope it isn’t a deliberate attempt to vilify certain segments of our community.

For the bigots, the childish and the uninformed – this is a change that costs nothing, brings the ACT into line with elsewhere, and brings a whole segment of society out of an oppressive shadow it’s forced to exist in.

Doing this won’t affect the buses running on time, it won’t distract the government from the issues you may believe are more important. It will however replace a system that forces people to spend tens of thousands of dollars and undergo significant hardship for recognition.

If you choose to hold a bigoted view of persons who identify as transgender and intersex, that is of course your prerogative in a free society. But when you air those views, do so with some empathy and in a manner that furthers the discourse, rather than playing into the most selfish and stereotypical realms of debate.

PBO said :

Whats next, diversity in prisons? Sorry, i don’t think so….

FFS, think about the majority for once and what we want as opposed to what a few individuals get uppity about. Constantly waving these issues in peoples faces is what causes motions against them.

If you have a penis, you are a man
If you have a vagina, you are a woman
If you have both then you can go F#### yourself and pick a proper toilet.

It’s nice to see someone so considerate of the intersexed, who are not that way through any fault of their own. I really don’t see why this is such a problem. Everything trans people want costs virtually nothing. Some of it will even bring in government funding through administrative fees.

Are you really complaining because giving everyone human rights and basic dignity is such a headache? I suppose you’d like to live through discrimination and violence? Or, would you rather carry trans people on the welfare system forever by crippling them emotionally and forcing them to keep a papertrail that stops them getting jobs?

PBO said :

Whats next, diversity in prisons? Sorry, i don’t think so….

FFS, think about the majority for once and what we want as opposed to what a few individuals get uppity about. Constantly waving these issues in peoples faces is what causes motions against them.

If you have a penis, you are a man
If you have a vagina, you are a woman
If you have both then you can go F#### yourself and pick a proper toilet.

This comment is both rude and ignorant. I can’t help you with your bad attitude, but if you’d like to improve your knowledge on this issue, try reading –

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intergender

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

The real question is HOW gender could be legally recognised. Drivers license? Passport?

Basically, changing gender on legal documents- so yes, passport and driver’s license, but more importantly, birth certificate and bank accounts.

Additionally, if trans people are not able to change their legal gender, they face other heteronormative forms of discrimination, such as being unable to marry their partners.

The other thing is that, currently, transgender people are not recognised as legally having their gender because they are treated like people with a mental illness, and made to jump hurdles of approval from psychiatrists, GPs (most of whom are bigoted) and others in order to do simple things like pay out of their own pockets for reversible surgery.

Being trans means being a second-class citizen.

Introductory Biology:

Y chromosome present: male
Y chromosome absent: female

Whats next, diversity in prisons? Sorry, i don’t think so….

FFS, think about the majority for once and what we want as opposed to what a few individuals get uppity about. Constantly waving these issues in peoples faces is what causes motions against them.

If you have a penis, you are a man
If you have a vagina, you are a woman
If you have both then you can go F#### yourself and pick a proper toilet.

SnapperJack said :

Gender diversity? I’ll give you a quick lesson. Males have a penis and are men. Females have a vagina and are women. You cannot be both and there is no interchangeability. End of lesson.

You sound very ignorant on this issue, so should not have bothered to make a comment.

Some people are not exactly male men or female woman for their sex and gender, and in fact are in-bewteen for one or both or opposite for one or the other. So, nature delivers people who are sex and gender diverse, always has and always will. It is just a social construction that insists all people try to be either a male man or female woman for their sex and gender.

Here_and_Now6:00 pm 09 Jul 12

All this, and the capitalisation is off, too. The English teachers are copping it as well as the gender diverse.

(A transgendered English teacher would probably be very unhappy indeed!)

Zoe Brain said :

Although, to be fair to JB I think trannie is probably a little less negative then f*g or d**e

No it’s not, I’m afraid, it’s exactly as bad. But unlike Kike, Yid, Sheenie, Coon etc it’s still socially acceptable. Therein lies the problem.

I agree 100%. Recommendation 1 of this important report says –
reference should consistently be made to ‘sex and gender diversity’, ‘sex and gender diverse people’, and ‘people in sex and gender diverse communities’.

Here_and_Now5:55 pm 09 Jul 12

SnapperJack said :

Gender diversity? I’ll give you a quick lesson. Males have a penis and are men. Females have a vagina and are women. You cannot be both and there is no interchangeability. End of lesson.

Do you truly believe this to be the case? It is not a fact, I’m afraid. Please research these issues further before trying to describe things about them.

Gender diversity? I’ll give you a quick lesson. Males have a penis and are men. Females have a vagina and are women. You cannot be both and there is no interchangeability. End of lesson.

For mine, the standout of this report is against the original Iasues Paper, the number of times that Australian Christian Lobby expressed an opinion, and the number of times they were referred to in the proposal (just once, in relation to enshrining the status quo so long as transgenderism is considered a clinical disorder).

Mysteryman said :

What services do they not currently have access to?

When in doubt, read?
(Below quoted from the ACT Law Reform Advisory Council, and in the above document)

While Australia does have systems that enable the record on official documents to be changed,
not all people in the sex and gender diverse communities can make use of those systems. For example the systems may:
> not allow people who are married to change some or all of their documents.
> not allow a change without having undergone reassignment surgery.
> not offer legal recognition for people who do not identify as strictly male or female.

In March 2009, the AHRC published the Sex Files report,26 saying at 4.1: ‘Sex and/or gender identity defines a person’s sense of self and positions them in a social and political context. Every person has the right for their sex and/or gender identity to be recognised and respected’.

The report made 15 recommendations:

1- Marital status should not be a relevant consideration as to whether or not a person can request a change in legal sex.

2- The definition of sex affirmation treatment should be broadened so that surgery is not the only criteria for a change in legal sex.

3- The evidentiary requirements for the legal recognition of sex should be relaxed by reducing the quantity of medical evidence required and making greater allowance for people to self-identify their sex.

4- The special needs of children and young people who wish to amend their documents and records should be considered.

5- A person over the age of 18 years should be able to choose to have an unspecified sex noted on documents and records.

6- Information on the process and criteria for the legal recognition of sex should be easily accessible and user-friendly.

7- Documents of identity and processes required for the legal recognition of sex should not reveal personal information about a person’s past identity in relation to sex.

8- Laws and processes for the legal recognition of sex should use empowering terminology.

9- Where possible, sex or gender should be removed from government forms and documents.

10- The federal government should consider the development of national guidelines concerning the collection of sex and gender information from individuals.

11- The federal government should take a leadership role in ensuring that there is a nationally
consistent approach to the legal recognition of sex in accordance with the recommendations of
this paper, by either:

i- working cooperatively with state and territory governments through the Council of Australian Governments (COAG) process to amend their respective legislation and policies in line with
the recommendations in this paper, particularly in relation to birth certificates, or
ii- establishing a national board with responsibility for receiving and determining applications
for official recognition of a change in sex………as well as securing agreement from states and territories to recognise certificates of recognition issued by such a board.

12- The federal government should consider establishing a national office to advise and assist the public and federal government in relation to changing legal recognition of sex, as an alternative or
precursor to the national board put forward in Recommendation 11.

13- In the event that Recommendation 11 fails to result in sufficient support from state and territory governments, the federal government should consider legislation to:

i- amend the Sex Discrimination Act 1984 (Cth) to ensure that the protection against marital
status discrimination applies in the context of married persons seeking to amend their birth
certificates, to effectively override the existing discrimination under state and territory births
registration legislation
ii- establish a minimum national standard in respect of legal recognition of sex in documents
and government records in line with the recommendations in this paper.

14- The federal government should harmonise policies, procedures and legislation relevant to the legal recognition of sex in federal documents and records.

15- The federal government should take immediate steps to ensure that all federal government
departments and agencies provide clear and accessible information relevant to legal recognition
of sex in documents and records and how those documents and records can be amended, such
as by including a page on the department or agency’s website dedicated to this topic.

The report recommends a focus on the need for correct and consistent terminology for sex and gender diverse people in ACT legislation and government documentation to enable equal access to services for all people in the Territory.

What services do they not currently have access to?

Morelia said :

“Homo” is “just a shortening of an acceptable word” as well. Tradition doesn’t equal sensitivity. In fact, it usually negates it.

Fair call.

Zoe Brain said :

No it’s not, I’m afraid, it’s exactly as bad. But unlike Kike, Yid, Sheenie, Coon etc it’s still socially acceptable. Therein lies the problem.

Fair enough. I guess we just can’t know what is acceptable to other people until something like this happens and someone speaks up about how they hate the word. Everyone is pretty familiar with the very common racial slurs out there. When was the last time you actually saw any sort of familiar term (or slang) for a transgendered person in the media – let alone a negative one with a explanation that it shouldn’t be used?

Example: I had to google one of your example words as I had never heard it before (and I consider myself reasonably well read). Had I come across this word elsewhere I would have only had context to determine if it was derogatory or not – situations like the title of this thread would be somewhat misleading as I don’t believe the intent was to deride (regardless of how it might have been received).

Do ACTION buses run on time yet?

This Government’s priorities are just f*^ked-up!

Although, to be fair to JB I think trannie is probably a little less negative then f*g or d**e

No it’s not, I’m afraid, it’s exactly as bad. But unlike Kike, Yid, Sheenie, Coon etc it’s still socially acceptable. Therein lies the problem.

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

dungfungus said :

PBO said :

I for one will not be supporting the construction of a 3rd toilet for these ppl, who knows what the symbol on the door would be.

It would be chaos in pubs for those who want to eat, drink and be mary…..

Oh the dilemma; to stand or sit.

Squat?

Try standing on a toilet pedestal when you have a skinful and then squat.

PBO said :

I for one will not be supporting the construction of a 3rd toilet for these ppl, who knows what the symbol on the door would be.

Unisex toilets with just the basic facilities to support evacuation\ablution\maintnance in relative privacy, as otherwise you end up in the peculiar hell that is “toilets for every militant minority”.

VYBerlinaV8_is_back2:34 pm 09 Jul 12

dungfungus said :

PBO said :

I for one will not be supporting the construction of a 3rd toilet for these ppl, who knows what the symbol on the door would be.

It would be chaos in pubs for those who want to eat, drink and be mary…..

Oh the dilemma; to stand or sit.

Squat?

PBO said :

I for one will not be supporting the construction of a 3rd toilet for these ppl, who knows what the symbol on the door would be.

It would be chaos in pubs for those who want to eat, drink and be mary…..

The term you are looking for is “unisex” – you know, those bathrooms which can be used by anyone regardless of gender – not such a big deal when you realise many places already have unisex disability-access bathrooms.

I think the main thing for the general community (as opposed to legislators, who have more complex issues to consider) is to recognise that we still tend to see the world in terms of the “gender binary” ie you are either male or female and it is a simple matter to declare which. However, there are a chunk of the population for whom it is a bit come complicated than that, and there are some simple ways for us to acknowledge that. Like making sure your workplace has unisex bathrooms. I have started taking the gender question out of satisfaction surveys we run (where we never do a gender breakdown anyway – so why ask the question?) and out of job application processes (because we don’t take gender into account when shortlisting, so why ask it?) and so on. Once you start looking at it, quite often we ask people their gender in situations when it isn’t really a necessary piece of information for us to have.

Morelia said :

p1 said :

Although, to be fair to JB I think trannie is probably a little less negative then f*g or d**e (btw, I had to think a minute before I realised what word you were referring to there) as it is just a shortening of an acceptable word, which is something of a tradition in Australian English. I certainly imagine JB used it in this vein.

“Homo” is “just a shortening of an acceptable word” as well. Tradition doesn’t equal sensitivity. In fact, it usually negates it.

+1 I don’t necessarily agree that it’s a traditional accepted shortening of a word, but I can’t comment on the meaning JB gives to the word or his intent in using it.

PBO said :

I for one will not be supporting the construction of a 3rd toilet for these ppl, who knows what the symbol on the door would be.

It would be chaos in pubs for those who want to eat, drink and be mary…..

Oh the dilemma; to stand or sit.

p1 said :

Although, to be fair to JB I think trannie is probably a little less negative then f*g or d**e (btw, I had to think a minute before I realised what word you were referring to there) as it is just a shortening of an acceptable word, which is something of a tradition in Australian English. I certainly imagine JB used it in this vein.

“Homo” is “just a shortening of an acceptable word” as well. Tradition doesn’t equal sensitivity. In fact, it usually negates it.

I for one will not be supporting the construction of a 3rd toilet for these ppl, who knows what the symbol on the door would be.

It would be chaos in pubs for those who want to eat, drink and be mary…..

VYBerlinaV8_is_back1:07 pm 09 Jul 12

Wraith said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

The real question is HOW gender could be legally recognised. Drivers license? Passport?

The Mick Dundee method works well…….

Ha! 🙂

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

The real question is HOW gender could be legally recognised. Drivers license? Passport?

The Mick Dundee method works well…….

Mysteryman said :

I think the idea of having certain words only acceptable “within a community” to be a bit of a double standard. Which is strange, considering that often the “community” is campaigning against double standards.

That is kinda how I feel.

M Rose said :

Even in the “in the community”/”outside the community” debate, it still should not have been used here, as it has context as an derogatory slur, and it is offensive to many people. I doubt the word ‘f-g’, ‘d–e’ or, for that matter, ‘n—er’ would ever have been used.

I wasn’t meaning to hijack the thread or change your intent – it was just something that your post made me think of. Although, to be fair to JB I think trannie is probably a little less negative then f*g or d**e (btw, I had to think a minute before I realised what word you were referring to there) as it is just a shortening of an acceptable word, which is something of a tradition in Australian English. I certainly imagine JB used it in this vein.

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd12:53 pm 09 Jul 12

dungfungus said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

The real question is HOW gender could be legally recognised. Drivers license? Passport?

The submission covers this by having DFAT issuing passports with “X” instead of “M or F” in the gender section.
This creates an unintented consequence for any travelling Super Hero X-Men

😀

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

The real question is HOW gender could be legally recognised. Drivers license? Passport?

The submission covers this by having DFAT issuing passports with “X” instead of “M or F” in the gender section.
This creates an unintented consequence for any travelling Super Hero X-Men

I am totally ambivalent about this issue.

p1 said :

M Rose said :

A lot of transgendered people find that term to be heinously offensive, particularly when used by someone outside the community.

Without commenting on JB’s wisdom when writing the headline, I have always found the idea that a word can be fine when used “within” the community, but terribly offence when used by others to be an odd one. The use of the “N” word by black American rappers is a perfect example.

I guess it is the same as greeting your best mate with ‘how ya doin ya barstard’, but on a community wide scale.

I appreciate that there’s a debate there that people would like to have. Personally, I was just trying to find the best way to express the difference between a non-transgendered person using the word, and a transgendered person using the word to describe themselves, inviting other people to use the word to describe them personally, reclaiming the word or otherwise.

Even in the “in the community”/”outside the community” debate, it still should not have been used here, as it has context as an derogatory slur, and it is offensive to many people. I doubt the word ‘f-g’, ‘d–e’ or, for that matter, ‘n—er’ would ever have been used.

p1 said :

M Rose said :

A lot of transgendered people find that term to be heinously offensive, particularly when used by someone outside the community.

Without commenting on JB’s wisdom when writing the headline, I have always found the idea that a word can be fine when used “within” the community, but terribly offence when used by others to be an odd one. The use of the “N” word by black American rappers is a perfect example.

I guess it is the same as greeting your best mate with ‘how ya doin ya barstard’, but on a community wide scale.

I think the idea of having certain words only acceptable “within a community” to be a bit of a double standard. Which is strange, considering that often the “community” is campaigning against double standards.

M Rose said :

A lot of transgendered people find that term to be heinously offensive, particularly when used by someone outside the community.

Without commenting on JB’s wisdom when writing the headline, I have always found the idea that a word can be fine when used “within” the community, but terribly offence when used by others to be an odd one. The use of the “N” word by black American rappers is a perfect example.

I guess it is the same as greeting your best mate with ‘how ya doin ya barstard’, but on a community wide scale.

Way to go on the headline, there.
Managing to offend everyone involved with the policy in one step?

Truly, trolling is a art.

Seriously, its like putting a “Congratulations, fags!” headline on an article announcing same-sex marriage policy progress.

neanderthalsis11:35 am 09 Jul 12

M Rose said :

A lot of transgendered people find that term to be heinously offensive, particularly when used by someone outside the community. If we changed the topic of this article to homosexual rights, I would equate this title with “Won’t someone think of the f—-ts/d–es? Cries Simon” Is that something you would be likely to write?

But “Please won’t somebody think of the GLTBI&OMN-HSPWDMBLIWTGOF” does not have the same ring to it.

VYBerlinaV8_is_back11:34 am 09 Jul 12

The real question is HOW gender could be legally recognised. Drivers license? Passport?

A lot of transgendered people find that term to be heinously offensive, particularly when used by someone outside the community. If we changed the topic of this article to homosexual rights, I would equate this title with “Won’t someone think of the f—-ts/d–es? Cries Simon” Is that something you would be likely to write?

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