It sure looks like we're getting a bus lane down the Northbourne Median Strip

Lots of hot air on the Canberra news last night. Talk of light rail, talk of international airport … blah blah. When will we get a leader who makes it happen, rather than talking about it.

Bramina said :

That doesn’t explain why this project is hundreds of millions of dollars more expensive than previous government proposals.

The govco are just predicting a cost blowout up front. That way they don’t need to explain it later.

Pandy said :

The report, on a skim thru reading, does not say how many trams are needed but please correct me if I am wrong. Also correct me where in the report it says the preferred 220 passenger trams cost? From everything I have been able to find on the web on equivalent 220 passenger trams recently bought in Australia, they used to cost at least $5 million a piece, with inflation I bet they now cost more.

You can work out the number of trams needed from other information they give – the trip time (about 30 minutes) and the frequency of trams (every 10 minutes). They could scrape by with six trams. Eight trams would be reliable. And ten trams would mean they have backups in case of breakdowns.

I didn’t see where it said the preference was for 200 person trams. Even then ten 200 person trams would only cost $30 million more than ten 100 person trams.

That doesn’t explain why this project is hundreds of millions of dollars more expensive than previous government proposals.

ka1042 said :

You present yourself as Chair of the peak light rail lobby group in the ACT. I have never heard of your group……

So, this was your first time on RA then….? DH is a regular contributor here. Plus according to his posts, i’m guessing he’s a member of the Belconnen community council.
Hey… maybe he’s on the BCC to push his covert train agenda there too??? I love a good conspiracy theory!! Or maybe I could just take my tin foil hat off and calm down a bit….. Hahahaha!

ka1042 said :

The concept report (linked below) says that vehicles and depots would cost 20% which is $140 to $174 million.

To put things in perspective: for that price you could buy 87 trams of 100 passenger capacity. At 20m in length, placed end to end, these trams would extend for 1.7km. That is over a tenth of the way to gunners. For the entire cost of the project, you could make a continuous line of trams stretching almost 9km – three quarters of the way to the G. (The report says that a 100 person tram costs $2m).

They say they’re going to run services every 10 minutes. The trip takes about 30 minutes, so they only need about 8-10 trams maximum, not EIGHTY SEVEN.

So that leaves about $150m to build a depot – a shed for 10 trams.

The concept report: http://transport.act.gov.au/studies_projects/City%20to%20Gungahlin%20Concept%20report.pdf

The report, on a skim thru reading, does not say how many trams are needed but please correct me if I am wrong. Also correct me where in the report it says the preferred 220 passenger trams cost? From everything I have been able to find on the web on equivalent 220 passenger trams recently bought in Australia, they used to cost at least $5 million a piece, with inflation I bet they now cost more.

Interesting to note that the the preferred option for either BRT or LRT is Kerbside.

If it were note for the bicycle fraternity, the width of the median strip would not be reduced.

And yes the report does say:

BRT is a cost-effective option, whilst LRT generates the best overall outcome for Canberra.

Money money money

The Govt will make the money back in the first few months of operations – another breakdown lane for running RBT’s (and RTA inspections) would be a cash earning exercise. The political party gifts from all the unions on this one would be a bonus, plus speed cameras.

2am road worker’s to keep the lower-income residents awake between stabbings, and bashing’s should work well.

The good news – seems that cancer causing gas from motorways is fine, as fact add more!

Only down side is cars would need to be taken off the road after RBT operations, resulting in more law changes that generate incomes for those people we all love (the lawyers). This kind law change thing only needs to be done in the city because having fire dangers from empty cars on the side of a bush capital road way isn’t an act of arson should it – if by magic – catch fire, or have its glass windows just pop out into the grass (better blame a smoker to be safe).

ka1042 said :

You present yourself as Chair of the peak light rail lobby group in the ACT. I have never heard of your group…

Damien is a well established as the ACT light rail guru. His website has been around for a while and he always puts in his two bob on light rail discussions here at the Riot Act. I can’t vouch for how serious or influential his organisation is, but Damien himself is legit.

damien haas said :

I recommend the Concept Study for close scrutiny. light rail – 700 to 870 million. 700 is a figure i could accept. Considering that initial rolling stock would need to be procured. But lets take out say 200 million for the worlds finest, cutting edge, light rail vehicles rolling along on unobtainium coated wheels. Would it REALLY cost 500 million to build a 12 kilometre line ?

The concept report (linked below) says that vehicles and depots would cost 20% which is $140 to $174 million.

To put things in perspective: for that price you could buy 87 trams of 100 passenger capacity. At 20m in length, placed end to end, these trams would extend for 1.7km. That is over a tenth of the way to gunners. For the entire cost of the project, you could make a continuous line of trams stretching almost 9km – three quarters of the way to the G. (The report says that a 100 person tram costs $2m).

They say they’re going to run services every 10 minutes. The trip takes about 30 minutes, so they only need about 8-10 trams maximum, not EIGHTY SEVEN.

So that leaves about $150m to build a depot – a shed for 10 trams.

The concept report: http://transport.act.gov.au/studies_projects/City%20to%20Gungahlin%20Concept%20report.pdf

Martlark said :

How much would it cost to make the left hand lane on Northbourne a bus lane each way? A few cans of paint? I wonder what proportion of these options is being justified by improving car traffic? I don’t think that’s the sort of thing you want to do to encourage public transport.

The plan isn’t to paint a lane each way, it is to dig up the median strip down the centre of Northbourne and build more lanes there to make up for the bus lane on the outside. And they’re also building dedicated bike lanes on both sides which bumps the cost up.

The report is very heavy on repositioning roads for some reason that completely eludes me. Most of the way to Gungahlin there is either a wide median strip, or a wide nature strip on the side of the road that would be perfect for trams.

Sgt.Bungers said :

Pandy said :

3Km extension to the Adelaide light rail network 3 years ago cost 100 million dollars.

You do the math.

The Perth to Mandurah railway line cost 1.66 billion by the time it was finished 5 years ago, (approx 1.86 billion today adjusting for inflation). That is a 70 kilometre railway line, including 10 new stations, 15 new bridges, new rolling stock, new railcar storage, electrical infrastructure… the list goes on.

How have we arrived at an estimate of nearly half that cost, for well under a quarter of the distance… for light rail.

8 years ago they managed to build the 1400km Alice Springs to Darwin railway for a mere $1.2bn.

It seems like railways are priced in the same way as hot chips from the takeaway shop.

ka1042 said :

damien haas said :

Everything I post is under my own name. Its my right to be critical of any policy or action i dont agree with. Some people whine anonymously on the internet, other people seek like minded individuals and take action.

If youre going to misquote selectively, at least cut and paste properly and dont insert random words.

If you would like to attend a meeting, contact me and I will add you to the mailing list.

Its a self funded organisation. Members pay for all costs out of their own pocket. We havent received a cracker from any government body or political party. I am not a member of any political party. To my knowledge there are no commercial conflicts. We are advocating for improved public transport – its pretty hard to winkle a conspiracy out of that, but you go right ahead and keep digging.

Anything else ?

You present yourself as Chair of the peak light rail lobby group in the ACT. I have never heard of your group and your reply to my first question was so juvenile and didn’t answer my questions properly. I thought I would look at your website. The website was so vague. Being the beavering drilling type that I am I was interested and asked legitimate questions – Who is this peak light rail lobby group that you claim to represent and do they have any political connections? Who are its members who you claim come from Community Councils, all political parties, environmental groups and the general public? Does this lobby group have any legitimate studies to back up their claim that light rail offers the best form of mass transit in the ACT? How is this group funded? and, Does your organisation have any clout?
And yes, I agree, everyone has the right to question government policy. I support better transport options in Canberra particularly along Northbourne Avenue, one of the most congested roads in Canberra. As a true blue Canberran I am also interested in Canberra’s development. The Canberra Liberals offer no alternative and the Greens just think money grows on trees. Everyone complains that the government doesn’t consult. Well they are consulting, asking for community feedback before they release the final report in a couple of months time. I don’t know of any other ACT local government that has consulted the way this government has. Your post just sounded like one big whinge.

Oh and transformers.

Of course a green field project like this would cost more than a mere extension.

Canberra would needed depots, workshops, and lots of intersections works. Not so much in Adelaide.

My favourite part about the artist impression is how there’s a single car waiting at the intersection on Northbourne. The artist either isn’t very good at drawing lines of cars, or his brief was to make the bus system look super effective.

Is does sound rather expensive given the whole network cost for light rail a couple of years back was $2 Billion. So a figure at $500 million would be around the mark for Gungahlin to Civic. Interestingly the Gold coast light rail stage 1 of 13km will cost over $1 Billion dollars! and many are not so supportive of it either. http://www.stoplightrail.com/

There’s nothing wrong with Bus Rapid transit DH, in the end it will come down to cost benefit analysis for all modes of Transport.

Those strips were always intended for trams but of course Canberra was never considered metropolitan or important enough to fund, plan and build properly for the future. Now we have self-government we have buckleys of ever getting proper infrastructure in this city – regardless of which brand of local politics gets in. The press conference smells of selling the cheap and nasty solution.

Why not do the obvious!!

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/9461/magicbusway.png

400 Times cheaper. Likely save everyone 5 minutes.
First step is to remove the bike lakes!

What they don’t tell you is that with the busway / trainway down the middle the time to actually get down northbourne for everyone else will increase!

Also for 800 Million.. isnt it cheaper just to put in a subway?

Mind you for a billion you could probably just cut into the middle of Northbourne put in 2 tracks and roof over the top. No effect on traffic once its done and future proof!

damien haas said :

Everything I post is under my own name. Its my right to be critical of any policy or action i dont agree with. Some people whine anonymously on the internet, other people seek like minded individuals and take action.

If youre going to misquote selectively, at least cut and paste properly and dont insert random words.

If you would like to attend a meeting, contact me and I will add you to the mailing list.

Its a self funded organisation. Members pay for all costs out of their own pocket. We havent received a cracker from any government body or political party. I am not a member of any political party. To my knowledge there are no commercial conflicts. We are advocating for improved public transport – its pretty hard to winkle a conspiracy out of that, but you go right ahead and keep digging.

Anything else ?

You present yourself as Chair of the peak light rail lobby group in the ACT. I have never heard of your group and your reply to my first question was so juvenile and didn’t answer my questions properly. I thought I would look at your website. The website was so vague. I was interested and asked legitimate questions – Who is this peak light rail lobby group that you represent? Who are its members who you claim come from Community Councils, all political parties, environmental groups and the general public and, Does your organisation have any clout?
And yes, everyone has the right to question government policy. I support better transport options in Canberra particularly along Northbourne Avenue, one of the most congested roads in Canberra. As a Canberran I am also interested in Canberra’s development. The Canberra Liberals offer no alternative and the Greens just think money grows on trees. Everyone complains that the government doesn’t consult. Well they are consulting, asking for community feedback before they release the final report in a couple of months time. I don’t know of any other ACT local government that has consulted they way this government has. Your post just sounded like one big whinge.

Pandy said :

3Km extension to the Adelaide light rail network 3 years ago cost 100 million dollars.

You do the math.

The Perth to Mandurah railway line cost 1.66 billion by the time it was finished 5 years ago, (approx 1.86 billion today adjusting for inflation). That is a 70 kilometre railway line, including 10 new stations, 15 new bridges, new rolling stock, new railcar storage, electrical infrastructure… the list goes on.

How have we arrived at an estimate of nearly half that cost, for well under a quarter of the distance… for light rail.

Pandy said :

3Km extension to the Adelaide light rail network 3 years ago cost 100 million dollars.

You do the math.

With far more capital works than would be required anywhere in Canberra

Meanwhile, we have now slowed the trip from West Belconnen to City along William Hovell Dr. by 25 seconds with the sly reduction of the speed limit to 80km/h just the other day. I mean, where is the consistency!!
“$400 million for a 2 minute reduction in travel time?”. The increase in travel from West Belco by 25 seconds cost them about $85,000. Whether it gets quicker or slower it seems to just eat up more of our money.

Everything I post is under my own name. Its my right to be critical of any policy or action i dont agree with. Some people whine anonymously on the internet, other people seek like minded individuals and take action.

If youre going to misquote selectively, at least cut and paste properly and dont insert random words.

If you would like to attend a meeting, contact me and I will add you to the mailing list.

Its a self funded organisation. Members pay for all costs out of their own pocket. We havent received a cracker from any government body or political party. I am not a member of any political party. To my knowledge there are no commercial conflicts. We are advocating for improved public transport – its pretty hard to winkle a conspiracy out of that, but you go right ahead and keep digging.

Anything else ?

3Km extension to the Adelaide light rail network 3 years ago cost 100 million dollars.

You do the math.

thebadtouch said :

$300 million plus to reduce a delay of 16 minutes down to 8 minutes. Let’s keep this in perspective. Other cities in Australia experience delays of 1 or 2 hours each way commuting to and from work. What is 16 minutes?

Does anyone else think this is an enormous amount of money that could be better spent on more pressing needs?

yes.

if the ACT Govt (aka fancy local council) used some simple logic, they would see that their existing measures (such as more expensive car parking) to encourage more use of public transport have failed.

therefore why spend a stupid amount of money on another form of public transport that won’t be used?

Despite 2004 govt costings at $200m, abc news keeps reporting $800m ridiculous figure verbatim. I have never been so frustrated. How about doing a little background, fellas?

damien haas said :

ka1042 said :

You say you attended the press conference as the Chairman of ACT LightRail and listened to the conference in its entirety. You were also stunned when Simon Corbell announced the 300 million for BRT and 870 million for Light Rail and couldn’t understand why the journos at the conference didn’t question him on this. If you were present as Chair of ACT LightRail and were so stunned, why didn’t you question him?

Time and place, time and place. I’m not hijacking a Ministers press conference.

Also, i’m not a journo. i listened, then waited for my turn to be interviewed.

I’d love the entire transcript of what Corbell said to be released. Questions asked dont equal questions answered. He talked for 10-15 minutes. He will be lucky to get perhaps 30 seconds of what he actually said on the electronic media.

ka1042 said :

I have read some of the report. My understanding is that the study and consultation process isn’t complete. There is also the opportunity to provide written feedback to raise any concerns and a survey form. There are also community consultation sessions planned in Dickson, Gungahlin and Civic where all interested parties (including you as Chairman of ACT Light Rail) can provide further feedback and raise any concerns you may have. The final report is anticipated to be released in June 2012.

Thanks for that, let me shake the magic 8 ball and see what the reports final outcome will be.

Damien Haas Chair of ACT Light Rail Organisation is very critical of the ACT government’s City to Gungahlin Transit Corridor report.

I’m interested in who this organisation is as I haven’t heard of them before so I looked on the internet. The website is very vague and light on detail. It says: “ACT Light Rail are (stet) the peak light rail lobby group in the Australian Capital Territory. We are an important organisation in Canberra with members from Community Councils, all political parties, environmental groups and members of the general public.”

Despite these claims they do not name any of their members. Is this organisation a registered legitimate lobby organisation in the ACT? If so, do they have any commercial or political connections which may cause conflict? Who are they and how are they funded?

ACT Light Rail website: “We believe that light rail offers the best form of mass transit for the ACT, and will serve as the backbone of an integrated public transport system incorporating bus’s, park and rides, bicycles and active transport.”

Apart from the really really bad spelling and grammar, does this organisation have any clout and legitimate studies to back up their claim that light rail offers the best form of mass transit in the ACT?

ACT Light Rail website: “The ACT Light Rail committee meet regularly to discuss public transport matters of interest and determine our lobbying activities. We hold public meetings on a regular basis.
If your organisation supports light rail in the Capital region, please email dchaas67 at gmail.com.au”.

FioBla said :

That timeline is hilarious. If only it took that long to start wars.

We should start celebrating 10th anniversaries: 10th anniversary of the Corbell Light Rail Exploration. Make it a public holiday. Send flowers. Or a Light Rail Dreams Memorial Plaque along Anzac Parade. Canberra does memorials well.

We could even set up an online bet for which is built first/last:
1. New Sydney Airport.
2. Rail to Melbourne Airport
3. Light rail on George Street Sydney
4. Light rail in Canberra.
6. Sydney Northwest railway line
7. Third Canberra Hospital
8. NBN
9. Canberra Ikea
10. More frequent buses to Weston Creek

2nd Sydney airport was ready to be built in 1991. I still think my car will fly or I’ll have my personal jetpack by the time it’s ready to go.

That timeline is hilarious. If only it took that long to start wars.

We should start celebrating 10th anniversaries: 10th anniversary of the Corbell Light Rail Exploration. Make it a public holiday. Send flowers. Or a Light Rail Dreams Memorial Plaque along Anzac Parade. Canberra does memorials well.

We could even set up an online bet for which is built first/last:
1. New Sydney Airport.
2. Rail to Melbourne Airport
3. Light rail on George Street Sydney
4. Light rail in Canberra.
6. Sydney Northwest railway line
7. Third Canberra Hospital
8. NBN
9. Canberra Ikea
10. More frequent buses to Weston Creek

Ben_Dover said :

Come on folks! That just screams “monorail!” 😉

Monorail is more of a North Haverbrook thing…

ka1042 said :

You say you attended the press conference as the Chairman of ACT LightRail and listened to the conference in its entirety. You were also stunned when Simon Corbell announced the 300 million for BRT and 870 million for Light Rail and couldn’t understand why the journos at the conference didn’t question him on this. If you were present as Chair of ACT LightRail and were so stunned, why didn’t you question him?

Time and place, time and place. I’m not hijacking a Ministers press conference.

Also, i’m not a journo. i listened, then waited for my turn to be interviewed.

I’d love the entire transcript of what Corbell said to be released. Questions asked dont equal questions answered. He talked for 10-15 minutes. He will be lucky to get perhaps 30 seconds of what he actually said on the electronic media.

ka1042 said :

I have read some of the report. My understanding is that the study and consultation process isn’t complete. There is also the opportunity to provide written feedback to raise any concerns and a survey form. There are also community consultation sessions planned in Dickson, Gungahlin and Civic where all interested parties (including you as Chairman of ACT Light Rail) can provide further feedback and raise any concerns you may have. The final report is anticipated to be released in June 2012.

Thanks for that, let me shake the magic 8 ball and see what the reports final outcome will be.

Given it cost the ACT govt $80 million + to build two tiny ponds at North Weston (assuming project ever gets finished – after two years it still looks like a barren hole in the ground with no construction workers to be seen), $800m for 12km of light rail is probably a conservative estimate by ACT project delivery standards.

I’d rather the money be spent on improved bus services than light rail simply because it’d be harder for the ACT govt to stuff up than an infrastructure project – and stuff it up they most certainly will.

damien haas said :

Thanks to a journo advising me of the Ministers Press Conference this afternoon, i managed to attend and listen to it in entirety. I had already read the press release – which did not contain the reports figures in it.
… The ACTGOV like to issue a press release ahead of the actual report, so that journos dont have time to read it. This avoids the possibility of any informed questioning. I raised this with a Transport for Canberra employee at the launch, who told me the report and figures would go live after the press conference. Great. Plus one for ‘open government’.
When Corbell announced the 300 million for BRT and 870 million for Light Rail I was just stunned. How on earth could he arrive at these figures ? How can a two lane light rail system travelling 12 kilometres cost more than twice the cost of the Majura Parkway ?
I wish the journos had asked him.
… it is clear that the ALP are going to implement BRT. This being the case – why didnt they just say so a year ago, and spend that intervening year doing it. I’m sure the commuters of Gungahlin would appreciate that. Instead we delay any decision until – oh wow – an election year!
I then had the opportunity to download and digest the reports that had been kept from the public and media until after the opportunity to ask Corbell inormed questions had passed.
Interesting reading. Go here: http://transport.act.gov.au/studies_projects/northbourne_study.html
…
The rest of the report is quite the read. Turning the rego office in Dickson into a shopping mall/bus station. I hope someone got a bonus for that idea.
…
And if anyone thinks this ALP government can actually deliver Bus Rapid Transit for 300 million, I refer you to every significant project this government has tackled and ask if any have been delivered on budget or on time. Its an empty cupboard of achievement.
Damien Haas
Chair, ACT Light Rail

You say you attended the press conference as the Chairman of ACT LightRail and listened to the conference in its entirety. You were also stunned when Simon Corbell announced the 300 million for BRT and 870 million for Light Rail and couldn’t understand why the journos at the conference didn’t question him on this. If you were present as Chair of ACT LightRail and were so stunned, why didn’t you question him?

I have read some of the report. My understanding is that the study and consultation process isn’t complete. There is also the opportunity to provide written feedback to raise any concerns and a survey form. There are also community consultation sessions planned in Dickson, Gungahlin and Civic where all interested parties (including you as Chairman of ACT Light Rail) can provide further feedback and raise any concerns you may have. The final report is anticipated to be released in June 2012.

Also, I can’t see what is wrong with turning the rego office in Dickson into a community precinct with a bus station/shopping mall. I’m a regular bus user and it sounds pretty good to me. Northbourne Avenue is one of the busiest traffic corridors in Canberra with thousands of people travelling down there every day. Look at what they did with the Belco bus interchange.

Come on folks! That just screams “monorail!” 😉

Rollersk8r said :

Well if you were keeping things in perspective you’d realise 16 mins in Canberra is relative to 2 hours in Sydney considering population size!

Wow! I thought time was only (basically) relative to speed? I never knew it was relative to popualtion size! You can probably get a Nobel prize in Physics if you can show that! Then again, perhaps the bigger Sydney population affects time in a gravitational time dilation kinda way! Hahahaha!

Rollersk8r said :

Most of the time I ride 10km to work in Civic – and I even walked it several times over summer. But in the middle of winter, on a rainy day, that same journey takes over an hour on the bus, which it simply should not.

If you don’t live in Gunners and are mentioning a 60 min bus trip, then sorry, nothing is likely to change for you as a result of any PT works out of this latest report!

johnboy said :

PantsMan said :

Wrong! We ARE getting a press release and a media-op six months before the election.

Dunno, Simon’s pretty keen on his bus lanes.

My gut feel is he’s trying to keep the light rail enthusiasts onside until after october.

you have read it right

“I see a risk that City Hall will be recaptured by a bunch of semi-reformed Trotskyist, car-hating, Hugo Chavez idolising, newt fancying, tax dodging, bank bashing hypocrites and bendy bus fetishists.”

Boris Johnson, launching his London mayoral re-election campaign.

Pitty Zed is no Boris.

When this gets canned after the election, hopefully we’ll start seeing talk of direct segregated cycle ways between all town centres. Rapid cycle transit will be cheaper than light rail and buses.

How much would it cost to make the left hand lane on Northbourne a bus lane each way? A few cans of paint? I wonder what proportion of these options is being justified by improving car traffic? I don’t think that’s the sort of thing you want to do to encourage public transport.

Rollersk8r said :

thebadtouch said :

$300 million plus to reduce a delay of 16 minutes down to 8 minutes. Let’s keep this in perspective. Other cities in Australia experience delays of 1 or 2 hours each way commuting to and from work. What is 16 minutes?

Does anyone else think this is an enormous amount of money that could be better spent on more pressing needs?

Well if you were keeping things in perspective you’d realise 16 mins in Canberra is relative to 2 hours in Sydney considering population size! We’d have no need to spend money on anything if we always just said someone somewhere is tolerating worse.

Most of the time I ride 10km to work in Civic – and I even walked it several times over summer. But in the middle of winter, on a rainy day, that same journey takes over an hour on the bus, which it simply should not.

It’s possible you’ve misunderstood me… I’m not suggesting that we can always find someone, somewhere tolerating worse and therefore we shouldn’t spend money on worthwhile projects. I’m merely asking whether $300 million (or more, as every other posted doubts this government can deliver anything on budget anyway) spent in this way is the wisest use of finances?

I’ve been caught in the Canberra peak many times – and it’s nothing. So I get to work 5 or 10 minutes later than usual; so what? Are we so precious that saving a few minutes in travel time is the all-important determinant?

“Particular fun can be had with their timeline:”

If you add up the money paid for all those consultants reports, you could probably buy light rail and a bus lane.

bitzermaloney said :

You missed one… around 2002 / 2003 a private consortium provided an unsolicated bid for $1b for a rail network (light or otherwise) that was to join ALL city centres (not just Civic and the as then relatively empty Gunner’s), as well as the Barton, the Airport, Quangers and East Maconochie Heights (and possibly have future extension to Murrambateman and Yass).

You are forgetting the economic neanderthals at ACT Treasury who won’t allow any public transport to be extended to Quangers because they don’t pay ACT taxes. Economic development and integration anyone?

It’s like New York putting up a wall around New Jersey because they don’t want to subsidies Jersey types. As it goes over a state border, the Commonwealth would probably pay for some of it also.

ML-585 said :

It sure looks like we’re getting a bus lane down the Northbourne Median Strip. Actually, it doesn’t. If you read the project update #2:

“Kerbside alignment along Northbourne Avenue is recommended by the consultants between Bunda Street and Barton Highway.”

Not sure if this is to do with relocation of services, or the ability for ALL bus services (not just those travelling to Gungahlin) to utilise a bus lane but it looks like we’re getting a bus lane in the OUTSIDE LANES of Northbourne Avenue, assuming someone else will pay for it.

Aaaaah, I was waiting for it. make a ‘dedicated bus lane’ Contine with same shite ACTION services, and turn it back to traffic wen it fails. They’ve done it before, they’ll do it again.

And i realise I have made an error: 20% instead of 40%

thebadtouch said :

$300 million plus to reduce a delay of 16 minutes down to 8 minutes. Let’s keep this in perspective. Other cities in Australia experience delays of 1 or 2 hours each way commuting to and from work. What is 16 minutes?

Does anyone else think this is an enormous amount of money that could be better spent on more pressing needs?

Well if you were keeping things in perspective you’d realise 16 mins in Canberra is relative to 2 hours in Sydney considering population size! We’d have no need to spend money on anything if we always just said someone somewhere is tolerating worse.

Most of the time I ride 10km to work in Civic – and I even walked it several times over summer. But in the middle of winter, on a rainy day, that same journey takes over an hour on the bus, which it simply should not.

johnboy said :

PantsMan said :

Wrong! We ARE getting a press release and a media-op six months before the election.

Dunno, Simon’s pretty keen on his bus lanes.

My gut feel is he’s trying to keep the light rail enthusiasts onside until after october.

How is that working out for him ?

You missed one… around 2002 / 2003 a private consortium provided an unsolicated bid for $1b for a rail network (light or otherwise) that was to join ALL city centres (not just Civic and the as then relatively empty Gunner’s), as well as the Barton, the Airport, Quangers and East Maconochie Heights (and possibly have future extension to Murrambateman and Yass).

The solution was going to be built entirely out of private sector money and included an underground terminal in Civic (with a tunnel coming up where our beloved city councilors are standing in their photo shoot). The only thing the ACT grubbymint need to provide was the land for the tracks and stations.

The bid was rejected without a specific reason given, however the rumour was:
– ACTION without the intercity bus route would collapse (despite obviously being the feeder transport system to the rail links);
– The owners were an OS based investment organisation, hence profits heading OS; and/or
– ACT grubbymint not having as much control over pricing, etc. on public transport.

Needless to say the investors dissappeared relatively quickly because it was probably more a Shelbyville type idea anyway.

from the picture, why is it two lanes wide? make it tidal flow and save $$ and less impact on the median. and like another poster said, add bike paths

Thanks to a journo advising me of the Ministers Press Conference this afternoon, i managed to attend and listen to it in entirety. I had already read the press release – which did not contain the reports figures in it.

As a general rule, The ACTGOV like to issue a press release ahead of the actual report, so that journos dont have time to read it. This avoids the possibility of any informed questioning. I raised this with a Transport for Canberra employee at the launch, who told me the report and figures would go live after the press conference. Great. Plus one for ‘open government’.

When Corbell announced the 300 million for BRT and 870 million for Light Rail I was just stunned. How on earth could he arrive at these figures ? How can a two lane light rail system travelling 12 kilometres cost more than twice the cost of the Majura Parkway ?

I wish the journos had asked him.

Post press conference i talked to journos and expressed ACT Light Rails disappointment. based on Corbells comments today, it is clear that the ALP are going to implement BRT. This being the case – why didnt they just say so a year ago, and spend that intervening year doing it. I’m sure the commuters of Gungahlin would appreciate that. Instead we delay any decision until – oh wow – an election year!

I then had the opportunity to download and digest the reports that had been kept from the public and media until after the opportunity to ask Corbell inormed questions had passed.

Interesting reading. Go here: http://transport.act.gov.au/studies_projects/northbourne_study.html

I recommend the Concept Study for close scrutiny. light rail – 700 to 870 million. 700 is a figure i could accept. Considering that initial rolling stock would need to be procured. But lets take out say 200 million for the worlds finest, cutting edge, light rail vehicles rolling along on unobtainium coated wheels. Would it REALLY cost 500 million to build a 12 kilometre line ?

This is the sleight of hand accounting trick that has been used to inflate the cost of light rail: do not count any vehicle cost for BRT, and make 40 percent of the 870 million LR figure the cost of LR vehicles. This is disingenuous at best as there are only a limited number of 100 plus passenger capacity vehicle in ACTIONS fleet, and IF the BRT was to achieve the service levels of the report – significant 100 plus passenger buses would need to be procured. For the report to be credible, these figures need to be added to the 360 million cost of BRT.

The rest of the report is quite the read. Turning the rego office in Dickson into a shopping mall/bus station. I hope someone got a bonus for that idea.

No one has ever said light rail is a cheap option, but it is the best long term option. The concept report says that – on page 55.

And if anyone thinks this ALP government can actually deliver Bus Rapid Transit for 300 million, I refer you to every significant project this government has tackled and ask if any have been delivered on budget or on time. Its an empty cupboard of achievement.

Damien Haas
Chair, ACT Light Rail

geni_lou said :

johnboy said :

PantsMan said :

Wrong! We ARE getting a press release and a media-op six months before the election.

Dunno, Simon’s pretty keen on his bus lanes.

My gut feel is he’s trying to keep the light rail enthusiasts onside until after october.

He’s not doing a good job. $800 million is cyncical at best. I just can’t believe that costs have quadrupled since 2004, and I’m not sure who can. I’m done with them.

+1

Imagine if that public art money had been sunk into this for the last decade. And maybe the Human Rights Commissioner is handy with concrete formwork?

FFS! I call ‘election maneuver’ that will designed to paper over their decade of ‘let them eat cake’ government.

$300 million plus to reduce a delay of 16 minutes down to 8 minutes. Let’s keep this in perspective. Other cities in Australia experience delays of 1 or 2 hours each way commuting to and from work. What is 16 minutes?

Does anyone else think this is an enormous amount of money that could be better spent on more pressing needs?

Apparently when I’m treated like an idiot I respond by calling things ‘cyncical’. Oops

johnboy said :

PantsMan said :

Wrong! We ARE getting a press release and a media-op six months before the election.

Dunno, Simon’s pretty keen on his bus lanes.

My gut feel is he’s trying to keep the light rail enthusiasts onside until after october.

He’s not doing a good job. $800 million is cyncical at best. I just can’t believe that costs have quadrupled since 2004, and I’m not sure who can. I’m done with them.

PantsMan said :

Wrong! We ARE getting a press release and a media-op six months before the election.

Dunno, Simon’s pretty keen on his bus lanes.

My gut feel is he’s trying to keep the light rail enthusiasts onside until after october.

It sure looks like we’re getting a bus lane down the Northbourne Median Strip. Actually, it doesn’t. If you read the project update #2:

“Kerbside alignment along Northbourne Avenue is recommended by the consultants between Bunda Street and Barton Highway.”

Not sure if this is to do with relocation of services, or the ability for ALL bus services (not just those travelling to Gungahlin) to utilise a bus lane but it looks like we’re getting a bus lane in the OUTSIDE LANES of Northbourne Avenue, assuming someone else will pay for it.

Wrong! We ARE getting a press release and a media-op six months before the election.

Good! Do it! ..although I notice no bike lanes in the artists impression?

How many times do we have to have a report which ends up being a recipe for doing nothing? Light rail has been talked about forever just like fast trains between here and elsewhere. It’s always about the money but consider how many paid up members of the TWU are employed by ACTION. Like the VFT and the road freight/airline businesses it’s interesting how good ideas are always too expensive but continued growth of particular vested interests is never part of the debate.

Their own costs for light rail from the previous report (4 years ago?) for city to gungahlin came to $200 million. They always do this. Pull out some ridiculous figure that relates to heavy rail with tunnels etc and say they can’t possibly afford to do it. It’s a nonsense.
In their last report (by PWC) light rail was also said to pay for itself (unlike buses), get a much stronger passenger uptake, be more likely to attract funding from business, and generally be a much more sensible long term option.
All these endless reports, failed busways, and bullsh*t figures do my head in.
Just say “we’ll stick with what we’ve got but try and build up some credibility before the election by acting like we’re on the front foot & have progressed since 1952” Corbell. It would be far, far less cycnical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-Bahn_Busway

Just saying, might be the missing link.

It will never happen, the tree huggers woulodn’t allow the Govt to cut down all those trees.