Discussion: The Australian Public Service Hiring Process

All valid points … I think! (I got lost somewhere along the line … who would’ve thought a post about the PS is Canberra would drum up so much interest?).

FYI – the PM (who I have no particular affiliations to) recently stood up and announced he wanted our countries Public Service to be the best in the world. To do this he said there were four main objectives towards improving the system.
1. More innovative and creative policy writing in this complex system we have created with citizen-centred service delivery.
2. Better communication, coordination and mobility across government portfolios
3. Improved attraction to top performers from outside the current public system to input into the processes of government.
4. Investment in its people, particularly learning and development.

I think the last two points are particularly relevant to this discussion. None of this is rocket science but yes … it is essential the PS changes its recruitment processes to make it more accessible (or just plain normal) for outsiders and also to properly use the skills the current sleuth of APS’have, rather than sticking them in monotonous unrewarding jobs with little to no encouragement or motivation to think of ‘the big picture’ and no encouragement to expand their skills to fill the gaping holes in some areas.

I loathe the public service recruitment process. I know from first-hand experience (working in the PS) that there is nothing transparent about the PS – it’s all about who you know. So, network, network, network!!

One thing I find really poor is the fact that applicants spend a lot of time putting together a job application and do not often receive a “thank you” or “no thanks” for their effort. It doesn’t take much for a generic “Dear Applicant” letter. Many public servants have forgotten what it is like on the “outside”….or just have bad manners.

I have found that there are many opportunities from time to time for positions in the private sector that do not get advertised. The employer relies on the one thing canberra has that differentiates us from the rest of australia, a fantastic networking environment.

At any stage, i am aware of between 2-10 positions at the companies i deal with. some are looking for sales, tech or project management people.

Currently, contractors that have been let go from the Fed Govt are highly sought to assist companies in being able to align themselves with that department in some small measure.

I think that the reason that the APS is so attractive to many job seekers is the perception of stability. A dept won’t go broke, and if you are permanent, the likelihood of retrenchment is far less than the private sector, which is far more volatile.

There are two crucial questions.

Is someone acting in the job?
And how long have they been acting?

I don’t work for the APS but I’d suggest a third question:

Have they applied for the job?

thelozenger said :

I don’t work in the public service, I’m a student. But it doesn’t surprise me that people are saying they can’t get a job in the APS. Some people I know- just out of year 12 and not the, let’s say, smartest people around- have walked into APS4 roles because they have parents who work high up in the department who one, write their application, and two, influence the selection panel.

See, I’m not 100% sure in this instance, but I would assume that is the ACT PS. It seems to be rather common over there. I doubt that would happen often (at least for a permanent position and not just an on-going contract) within the APS. If it did, things would be picked up rather quickly.

As for the degree comment, it’s a common mis-informed statement. There are loads within the APS without degrees at high levels. The other thing is, you don’t even have to do a tertiary package at college to get into uni? A six month bridging course will suffice, and it seems everyone can study (even online?) so a degree isn’t all it’s cracked up to be sometimes.

Piratemonkey said :

If the process was any less regulated we would have people on this site complaining jobs paid for with public money are being awarded to those who don’t deserve them.

Of course, the other side of a less regulated hiring process is a less demanding firing process – to enable you to fix your recruiting mistakes more easily. Both would be good for the APS in my view.

But more importantly, proper managerial accountability would serve to fix most problems with recruitment. After all, if I’m accountable and its my job on the line for my teams results I’m going to make damn sure I hire the best people, and not the ones I like, my friends or relatives etc.

I’ve long thought that in the PS procedure often serves as a substitute for accountability. (happens also in the private sector, just not to the same degree).

toriness said :

finally if you are incapable of writing your own job application then god help you and the poor people you will be working with. will you pay someone to do your work for you as well???

Couldn’t agree more. I would always at least subconsciously mark down candidates where it was obvious they hadn’t written their own application.

NoAddedMSG said :

I agree with Ceej

But then how do you weed out the ones who paid someone else to write their application for them? (Something I have been told happens reasonably often, although I’m not trying in anyway to imply that it happens all the time. $400 is the figure I was quoted for the service.)

In the case of someone who is A/ already acting in the postion (i.e. the position is becoming a promotion), or B/ the applicant works in the section and has an excellent understanding of the processes and workings, or C/ the applicant has worked in the postion, i.e HDA, when the applicant applies for that position and the mananagement knows the applicant can easily fulful the role, (and may well have written the applicants refereee report mind you), it seems ludicrous that an outside panel can put more weight on the interview, when it has come down to a close result (“wow I’m sure I could have got 2 sentances outa that”). Management should play more of a role, and have some say in the final descision, where it is obvious who is the most able to perform the role, not because who can talk the talk (and as you stated if an external applicant) buy the application as well.

finally if you are incapable of writing your own job application then god help you and the poor people you will be working with. will you pay someone to do your work for you as well???

so much annoying misinformation in some of these comments. the APS is at times no different at times to other large organisations – because yes sometimes an influencing factor is not what you know but who you know. however that said, well functioning areas are based on recruitment selection based on performance and merit – whether that recruitment happens through full formal APS recruitment or not.

degrees help you move up through the ranks but are not necessary to get over 5-6 level (immediately to mind being my partner and a very good friend who are el1s – and very capable ones at that – with no tertiary quals).

finally application is not necessarily 33.33% worth of of final ranking at all – the last panel i chaired we specifically made the app only worth 20% because we all know it’s not necessarily the applicant who writes the damn thing! but to also state the obvious, it is your application that gets you further along in the process so it’s important to do a very good job with it.

recently i had a job interview and my referees were checked as part of shortlisting for interview – now that is something i had not experienced before in APS recruitment.

Whilst the OP was really about the perceived inefficiency of running a recruitment process when the outcome appeared to have been predetermined, there is the related matter of how to best present oneself for an advertised APS position.

I would agree with Seepi on the point of talking with people. This applies to any advertised job – private or public sector. Get in touch with the contact person for the job. Find out as much as you can, but also talk frankly with them about what your skills and experience are and how they might fit with the position. Find out who runs the Branch or the Division that the position is in. If it’s an EL1 or EL2 level position try and talk to the AS or the FAS about the role. As with any job it’s often not about who you know, but rather who knows you.

Use the information you have gained to help you address the selection criteria. Spend some time and effort on the criteria and address them properly. A lot of rejected applicants fail to demonstrate skills and experience – simply providing a list of jobs you’ve had or projects you’ve worked on wont cut it.

Choose your referees carefully. Make sure you spend some time with them discussing the role that you are applying for and making sure that they are clear about the points that you would like them to get across to the recruiter if they are contacted. If your current manager is not a referee make that clear and explain why.

I agree with Ceej

But then how do you weed out the ones who paid someone else to write their application for them? (Something I have been told happens reasonably often, although I’m not trying in anyway to imply that it happens all the time. $400 is the figure I was quoted for the service.)

thelozenger said :

Then again, I’ve been told by many people in the public service that these days, if you enter the public service without a degree you won’t get past an APS5 or 6 max.

Old fashioned thinking, and, thankfully, utterly incorrect IME.

PR girl – I would recommend writing less applications and spending even more time on them. Ring the contact officer and find out everything you can about the job – size of the team, average day, toughest issues, much contact with the minister’s office, are they looking to change things with a new person in the role, or are they happy with how the team runs etc etc. chat to them for as long as you can.

Then tailor your application to what you found out, try to give relevant examples for every selection criteria, and try to use their turns of phrase from their website, or from talking to them.

The application counts as 33% of your final ranking, so make it good – it isn’t just about making it good enough to get an interview. Maybe get someone in a got pr job to read one of your applications – it sounds like you are doing a lot of work for disappointing results.

There is also a specialist PR recruiting company in Kingston – might be worth getting on their books if they are still around- they fill a lot of short term govt appts.

Many govt organisations are not hiring as much as they were, so it is tougher now, but with your experience you should be able to get something for sure.

Too much emphasis on the interview I say !

I don’t work in the public service, I’m a student. But it doesn’t surprise me that people are saying they can’t get a job in the APS. Some people I know- just out of year 12 and not the, let’s say, smartest people around- have walked into APS4 roles because they have parents who work high up in the department who one, write their application, and two, influence the selection panel.
It makes me angry because I know that if I ever decided to go into the public service after uni, I’d start at an APS4 level. That’s after a degree.
Then again, I’ve been told by many people in the public service that these days, if you enter the public service without a degree you won’t get past an APS5 or 6 max.

Oh and if anyone went to the ANU law review that was on a couple of weeks ago, they had a couple of really good skits on the APS. I haven’t laughed that hard in a while.

PRGirl: The problem with the public service and contracts is yes they look at your previous experience. Currently I am applying for contract roles at the APS3-4 level however continually get knocked back with feedback of “your skills meet the criteria, however we are looking for some with MORE public service experience” You just need to sit back and keep on trying until you get lucky.

Also unless a role is IMMEDIATE start don’t expect to be working within the next 6 months.

The acting thing for me is more about working out how strong my claims would be. If I thought I met the criteria 100 per cent, I would still apply. If it were one of those cases where I thought I could probably do only an okay job at meeting the criteria, I might give it a miss (depending on the position and how much I wanted it).

I just went through a selection process for a job I had been acting in and was successful; however, at no point did I feel or was it suggested that the job was in the bag for me. Where I work, they can and have recruited from outside over internal candidates who were acting in the job.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

bd84 said :

Everyone says “they don’t see the need for a transparent selection process” until something goes wrong, then they’re the first people to jump up.

What exactly could ‘go wrong’? Someone else gets the job? Boo hoo, suck it up and keep looking. People that whinge about ‘fair’ aren’t the sort that I’d employ anyway.

What I meant by ‘go wrong’ was that by seeing stories on the front page of the Telegraph about a corrupt recruitment process i.e. ‘jobs for the boys’ misuse of public money, paying people who aren’t suitable (though I’m sure that happens to an extent anyway), payment of salaries at different levels to the actual position.

PRGirl said :

I have been living in the ACT for 2 years, moving here with my partner who landed a great role. I was employed in a senior role in a publicly listed company on a salary package of $200k pa. I have not been able to get a role in the APS even at $80k pa. The time it takes to complete an application, research the role and the department is around 8 hours. I apply for every role I see that fits my qualifications. I was told by one interviewer that I should ‘start at the bottom’ and work my way up. I have already done this and even felt I was taking a lesser role just to get in the door. As far as taking a contract role, I have been told that unless I have experience in the APS I won’t get one of those as I am not familiar with how the APS works.

So, meantime, I started my own business – it has been difficult, and I am still applying for APS roles – 8 in the past 2 weeks. There have been times when I send an application that I have spent 8 hours preparing only to never hear another word. I have had interviews and one month later received a letter saying no thank you. I have called the interviewers for feedback only to have my calls not returned, or be told that as I have no experience a more qualified person was chosen.

In private industry it could often take a month or two from interview to commencement of a new role. At a senior level it can take 3-4 months. However, I never had to spend 8 hours on an application or take lessons in how to address selection criteria which, by the way, for roles I have applyied for above EL1 level are all the same – you just need to tweek what you have done and apply it to the position description and department.

You can think you’re suitable for the positions as much you like really, you’re likely to be turned down far many more times than you are likely to get even an interview, my hit rate was about 60+ and that was probably lucky.

With most positions (even private) there’s no rhyme nor reason for a lot of declines other than their desire to trim the number of applicants quickly or how the person feels on the day. However, from my knowledge of public service recruitment, if you don’t properly address the selection criteria, the application almost certainly goes in the bin straight off. All you can do is put effort in and keep applying. Professional resume/selection criteria writers have paid off for some people I’ve known too.

deye said :

Piratemonkey said :

To avoid going for an already filled job all you have to do is ring up and ask if there is someone acting in the position. If yes, walk away

Not necessarily. I know of positions where someone was acting in the position and had no intention of applying for it, or who are only available to fill it for a short time. Someone needed to do the job until it was filled permanently.

damn straight. and not every person acting in a position is considered capable of doing it fulltime forever and ever amen. i’ve known people acting in positions for up to a year and not get the job when it was advertised for permanent filling – that includes SES.

Yes. There are two crucial questions.

Is someone acting in the job?
And how long have they been acting?

If they have been doing the job for 6 months or more, forget it and apply for something else, unless the contact officer gives you serious encouragement to apply.

Piratemonkey said :

To avoid going for an already filled job all you have to do is ring up and ask if there is someone acting in the position. If yes, walk away

Not necessarily. I know of positions where someone was acting in the position and had no intention of applying for it, or who are only available to fill it for a short time. Someone needed to do the job until it was filled permanently.

In private enterprise the decisions of those employing people do not come under the scrutiny of the Government or the people of Australia.

Unfortunately the public service does come under Government and Public scrutiny so the process needs a checks and balance system that can only be provided by the system that is currently in use.

There are ways to employ or promote people without using this system but their use is rare and would only be used in exceptional circumstances. Indeed my own promotion to APS6 a good 10 years ago was done by one of these processes. There was still an application and interview, but the process was very much simplified. It was done to better align the work I and several of my co-workers did to pay in private enterprise as several of our co-workers had already jumped ship to private enterprise and they were worried they would loose more. The process was non appeal able and had to be signed off by someone very senior in the public service commission.

I have been living in the ACT for 2 years, moving here with my partner who landed a great role. I was employed in a senior role in a publicly listed company on a salary package of $200k pa. I have not been able to get a role in the APS even at $80k pa. The time it takes to complete an application, research the role and the department is around 8 hours. I apply for every role I see that fits my qualifications. I was told by one interviewer that I should ‘start at the bottom’ and work my way up. I have already done this and even felt I was taking a lesser role just to get in the door. As far as taking a contract role, I have been told that unless I have experience in the APS I won’t get one of those as I am not familiar with how the APS works.

So, meantime, I started my own business – it has been difficult, and I am still applying for APS roles – 8 in the past 2 weeks. There have been times when I send an application that I have spent 8 hours preparing only to never hear another word. I have had interviews and one month later received a letter saying no thank you. I have called the interviewers for feedback only to have my calls not returned, or be told that as I have no experience a more qualified person was chosen.

In private industry it could often take a month or two from interview to commencement of a new role. At a senior level it can take 3-4 months. However, I never had to spend 8 hours on an application or take lessons in how to address selection criteria which, by the way, for roles I have applyied for above EL1 level are all the same – you just need to tweek what you have done and apply it to the position description and department.

Nice post Belles.

Transparency and accountability can be a time-consuming arduous task that might look needlessly complex to the external viewer, but it’s far superior to the alternative.

I don’t think anyone would argue that the public service appointment system is perfect, but for a glimpse at what the alternative would be like, you could look at the *ahem* slightly less transparent and accountable civil servant systems of a great many other countries, ranging from outright corruption to countries where civil employment is highly nepotistic (at times treated as a sort of birthright).

OzPhoenix said :

Ruby Wednesday said :

Anna Key, I wouldn’t take it that way. I usually asked that question on the basis that, if someone were doing the job, they would be able to meet the selection criteria better than I would because their experience and examples would align more closely with and be more relevant to the position.

Exactly. I’ve heard of questions on the selection criteria (for externally advertised jobs) asking questions on internal policies. To me that says they’ve written the selection criteria for the person in the job. A classic case of just going through the motions and wasting time and money.

Sounds like a quick call when you come across those kind of selection criterias could save a person a lot of time and grief.

Agree with you about specific questions, and maybe this shapes my experience now as a manager running selection processs
. I was once unable to apply for a job in the next section because one criteria was written along the lines of demonstrated experience actually in that job. And it wasn’t a technical position.

And I agree with what Belles said above, don’t assume someone acting will get it.

As a public servant myself there are a few things that should probably be cleared up.

There is a reason why people who are acting/on contracts do not immediately just get handed the job they are doing.

There is a rule set by the APSC (I believe) that a certain pecentage of jobs (i think 90%, but don’t quote me) have to be filled by a recruitment process. Hence a recruitement process happens.

If the panel has been selected correctly then it should not be able to swing in favour of those allready doing the job. This is because on a selection panel there should be 1 person from the section/team that the position is for and then 2 other people from completely different sections within the building. (preferably independent from the section doing the recruiting)

To say to people that if somebody is allready acting in the position then don’t apply is in essence cutting of your nose despite your face.

I applied for a job that others were acting in it, and was found suitable for the position and others were not.

Sometimes a person may be acting in the position but it doesn’t mean they are suitable for it, they may have been given it because it needed to be filled quickly, it may be a trial run to see how the person performs in the position. But I would never make the assumption that if somebody is acting in the job then you won’t get it. As a general rule in the public service somebody is always acting in a job somewhere that is being advertised.

The other thing is true to, just because somebody is acting in a position, does not mean that they have applied for the position. I know of people who have acted in positions many times over the years but never applied as they were happy with there previous job and just filling in the gaps when needed.

I suppose the other reason why the task is long and arduos is because when applying for a job up to an APS 6 LVL people can appeal the decision that has been made. So if the panel has done there job well and an appeal goes through then the outcome should not change, but if the panel has done a bad job and its not transparent then the APSC basically have to redo the entire recruitment process. So there are pusses and minusses to everything. And most likely always will be when things are very policy bound.

Ruby Wednesday said :

Anna Key, I wouldn’t take it that way. I usually asked that question on the basis that, if someone were doing the job, they would be able to meet the selection criteria better than I would because their experience and examples would align more closely with and be more relevant to the position.

Exactly. I’ve heard of questions on the selection criteria (for externally advertised jobs) asking questions on internal policies. To me that says they’ve written the selection criteria for the person in the job. A classic case of just going through the motions and wasting time and money.

Sounds like a quick call when you come across those kind of selection criterias could save a person a lot of time and grief.

To the comment of “And while we’re at it, why is it that so many public servants will only take another public service job, rather than jumping to the private sector? I ask this question having never worked for the public service myself.” The reason is that most (if not all) private sector jobs can not compete with public service salary. This may not apply to all but it does to me – my current position pays about $15k more in the public service than it did when I worked in private.

To ‘Anna Key’ – unfortunately my experiences (and there have been many) with applying for jobs in the public service have warranted this process of calling first to see if someone is acting. I have friends and family who work in the PS and they have seen the process in action and it happens exactly in that way.

Anna Key, I wouldn’t take it that way. I usually asked that question on the basis that, if someone were doing the job, they would be able to meet the selection criteria better than I would because their experience and examples would align more closely with and be more relevant to the position.

And remember that often the panel have been directed to do it and still have all their other work to do. And it can take a while for 3 of us to find a day or two where we are all free to get through interviews and chase referees. I’d much rather run a streamlined and efficient process that can give more overt flexibility.

I do get a bit annoyed when people ring me up as a contact officer and ask if anyone is acting in the job. It suggests that I’m not be running a fair process which I find offensive (or consider that maybe that I may be biased against the person acting to get rid of them.)

To all those who are complaining it wastes ‘THEIR MONEY’ consider the fact that public servants are taxpayers too!!

And yes I am one

OzPhoenix said :

Hmmm, interesting mis-interpretation.

No, not with “no questions asked”. But if someone has proven themselves to be fulfilling the role as required (and reflected in performance reviews), then I would say why waste peoples’ time and money and not just get on with the job at hand. ONLY, if they were failing to meet the job requirements, should the whole process be required. This would mean the process was reflecting the need for a new employee as a role was essentially vacant.

“How would anyone new be recruited?” Like they are in most sensible organisations, when a new role becomes available. Either due to increased work requirements or personnel leaving (either through inability to meet job requirements or life circumstances).

Sure, they may be filling the role properly, but there could be someone more qualified/skilled at the job? Why not toss it open for everyone to have a crack? If the person is acting in the role is suitable and worthy let them prove it against external applicants? By your logic nobody outside the APS would ever be recruited (except for APS1 staff) as when an opportunity arose a staff member already within the APS would be promoted with no checks/balances or external process…

I completely agree the process is both cost and time in-efficient, but without it people that wanted to get into the APS wouldn’t have any opportunity at all.

VYBerlina, peterh: that’s the point I was trying to make by being a smartarse and parroting back Addison’s question, but in reverse 😉

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

Ruby Wednesday said :

Why is it that so many private sector employees will only take a private sector job, rather than jumping to the public sector?

In my line of work I will get paid substantially more working for a private sector company than I would doing the same job in the public service (by several tens of thousands). Simple for me, less so for others…

My job equivalent doesn’t exist in the public service. Well, maybe at InTACT.

I have never had to complete selection criteria for a private sector job, but have had to submit to genesys testing, multiple interviews, panel interviews and presentation interviews, all of which are just obstacles to overcome…

There really isn’t an equivalent in the private sector, but you can wait a couple of months whilst headcount, operating expenses and budgets are sorted out, prior to being employed…

Hmmm, interesting mis-interpretation.

ahappychappy said :

So, you’re saying that instead of letting anyone and everyone apply for a job within the APS you would prefer them to just promote the internal person already acting in the role with no questions asked JUST to save people’s time and money? Sure, they may want the person already within the position to get the position – but they don’t know whether there is someone more qualified/experienced for the job?

No, not with “no questions asked”. But if someone has proven themselves to be fulfilling the role as required (and reflected in performance reviews), then I would say why waste peoples’ time and money and not just get on with the job at hand. ONLY, if they were failing to meet the job requirements, should the whole process be required. This would mean the process was reflecting the need for a new employee as a role was essentially vacant.

ahappychappy said :

If we allowed the APS to just promote people into positions without them being advertised then how would anyone new be recruited into the APS? The whole point of the process is to assess whether an applicant is suitable to work within the position – it’s pretty hard to skew results/applications to a manager’s benefit.

“How would anyone new be recruited?” Like they are in most sensible organisations, when a new role becomes available. Either due to increased work requirements or personnel leaving (either through inability to meet job requirements or life circumstances).

Ruby Wednesday said :

Why is it that so many private sector employees will only take a private sector job, rather than jumping to the public sector?

In my line of work I will get paid substantially more working for a private sector company than I would doing the same job in the public service (by several tens of thousands). Simple for me, less so for others…

OzPhoenix said :

Next, I note a lot of focus has been given on how the system is inefficient. Although I find that also amazing, it’s not my main point. My main point is that it seems common that the whole inefficient process is gone through for roles that are already filled and only for the purpose of going through the motion. Worse still, everyone seems to know that it’s the case, but it’s acceptable.

But I do appreciate the need for a transparent system, however the practice of ‘recruiting’ for a position they intend to fill with the person already in the role is not an example of exercising such a system. If anything it shows that there is a flaw with the system and it needs to be fixed.

So, you’re saying that instead of letting anyone and everyone apply for a job within the APS you would prefer them to just promote the internal person already acting in the role with no questions asked JUST to save people’s time and money? Sure, they may want the person already within the position to get the position – but they don’t know whether there is someone more qualified/experienced for the job?

If we allowed the APS to just promote people into positions without them being advertised then how would anyone new be recruited into the APS? The whole point of the process is to assess whether an applicant is suitable to work within the position – it’s pretty hard to skew results/applications to a manager’s benefit.

If the person already in the position writes a horrible applications and then bombs out in the interview, good luck on getting the job mate. I think you’ll hear of more people NOT getting their position within the APS that they have been acting in for twelve months, than people rigging/altering the process to give them the job they’re not entitled to. The person acting in the role is not always the person they want in the role.

If you want more reasoning as to why the system is how it is? Look at the comment above from MWF. That will only happen in the State PS – Good luck finding instances of that as common practice in the APS. It’s precisely why the APS has the process, so it isn’t a case of just knowing someone in a managerial role – They might help you with the application and recruitment process, but they’ll be found out pretty quickly.

I work in the Public Service (ACT Gov) and have applied for several different posisitons within my workplace, some of which have been filled by external applicants. I’m sure there is sometimes bias towards internal applicants but sometimes that just because they have previously acted in the position and have the experience.

Hey Everyone,

It’s been very interesting reading the replies. Just thought I’d comment on some broad things.

Firstly, this has not come about from personal experience. I have never applied for a public service job and thereby have never been through the process. This is all based on what I hear from public servants themselves, and simply always having been in the private sector it just amazes me.

Next, I note a lot of focus has been given on how the system is inefficient. Although I find that also amazing, it’s not my main point. My main point is that it seems common that the whole inefficient process is gone through for roles that are already filled and only for the purpose of going through the motion. Worse still, everyone seems to know that it’s the case, but it’s acceptable.

I see the comment that apparently what people are expected to do, is to call first to establish whether someone is already in the role. This should not be the norm, as this purely reflects the problem. It’s madness and I don’t understand how it can be allowed to happen.

But I do appreciate the need for a transparent system, however the practice of ‘recruiting’ for a position they intend to fill with the person already in the role is not an example of exercising such a system. If anything it shows that there is a flaw with the system and it needs to be fixed.

However, if nothing else I now know a bit of advice that I will be providing to my friends; the idea that it’s common practice to at least make a call to find out if someone is already acting in the position. As mad as that sounds to me, at least I can maybe save my friends some undue stress.

But then, I’ve also heard about bulk rounds being run at the end of the year purely to provide jobs for those who are finishing their grad program. In that case no one is acting in the role, but after all the investment the departments have spent on those individuals it seems pointless for others to apply.

Oz.

Addison said :

I’m little suprised at the comments about ‘fair’ and ‘something going wrong’. It’s about getting a job. If you don’t get it move on – complaining isn’t going to endear you to a potential employer. Also, when you’re job hunting, apply for everything in sight, rather than getting your heart set on position X in department Y.

I’m still unconvinced the fat, slow process is worth the effort.

And while we’re at it, why is it that so many public servants will only take another public service job, rather than jumping to the private sector? I ask this question having never worked for the public service myself.

Why is it that so many private sector employees will only take a private sector job, rather than jumping to the public sector?

In answer to your question, here’s my $0.02.

There are cultural differences between the two, and some jobs that are done in the public sector are less readily available in the private sector. One example would be policy work. Public sector management is also different from private sector management in that you have very little control over what can be changed (money and resources, services delivered, quality and quantity are all fixed in the PBS). While I suspect that in many ways the movement between the two is easier these days than in the past, the public sector and the private sector differ because of the principles and motives underlying them.

Like most things, the actual implementation of the selection process depends as much on the HR section and manager involved in the recruitment, and the overall departmental ethos. Regardless of what the actual legislation says, there is always room for the use of commonsense!

I got my first job in the Public Service because my manager always told his staff upfront that no matter whether they were acting in the role, they would have to *earn* it in the interview — he really didn’t show favouritism and this always impressed me.

While I’ve never been on a panel where I felt the outcome was unjust, I have worked with chairs who clearly showed a bias for internally promoting.

But that’s just the departments I have worked for. I hear stories from other depts where the process is much more bent (I’ll stop short of “corrupt”).

The first question I always ask is whether someone is already acting in the position. If the answer is that it is a new position and it is all genuine, then it is worth applying. Almost any other answer makes it a waste of time for applicants.

The only exception is term appointments – eg to replacce someone on maternity leave or long-service leave. you know they really need someone for that, and if anyone could do the acting, then they already would be.

bd84 said :

Everyone says “they don’t see the need for a transparent selection process” until something goes wrong, then they’re the first people to jump up.

What exactly could ‘go wrong’? Someone else gets the job? Boo hoo, suck it up and keep looking. People that whinge about ‘fair’ aren’t the sort that I’d employ anyway.

I am a recruitment manager for an APS department and agree that the red tape involved in recruiting someone is not only cumbersome and inefficient, but also expensive and still allow for error.

Unfortuantly, the APS need to follow the legistlation from the Public Service Act. This Act is outdated and as often as the APSC keep talking about updating it, they never seem to, or at least never seem to go far enough.

I guess the trouble is needing to be so transparent. A lot of private companies can afford to create their own recruitment processes and change and manipulate them as they see fit (which I don’t think is necessarily a bad thing). Unfortunately for the APS, due to needing to be transparent to the people of Australia, a process was created that could fit all jobs. Now in reality, I think we all know that there are jobs where things like selection criteria, panels, etc can greatly benefit, but there are also jobs where you need to be even more specific (say a techinical/professional job) and jobs when you could possibly afford to be less so.

I agree that people will tweak the system as much as possible to get the result they want, resulting in a not so meritorious process. There are reasons I support this and reasons I dont.

Anyway, I agree with the other commenters who recommoned coming in on a non-onoing contract. Be seen, show them your stuff. While the rules say that you can only be employed for a maximum of 12 months – I know that not every department considers this relevant and if you are good, you will be offered to continue.

I’m little suprised at the comments about ‘fair’ and ‘something going wrong’. It’s about getting a job. If you don’t get it move on – complaining isn’t going to endear you to a potential employer. Also, when you’re job hunting, apply for everything in sight, rather than getting your heart set on position X in department Y.

I’m still unconvinced the fat, slow process is worth the effort.

And while we’re at it, why is it that so many public servants will only take another public service job, rather than jumping to the private sector? I ask this question having never worked for the public service myself.

Unless you are a pain in the proverbial, *AND* someone’s nephew, then you get the job, waste tax payers money, and the person who should have had the job goes elsewhere.

I can only speak for the ACT Public Service – if you can get yourself or one of your relatives in the “acting” position, then the advertisement in the gazette is simply a nod to what ought to happen – applications, culling, interview via a panel etc. (though it won’t). If you or one of your relatives is already acting in the position then you have the job. Permanently.

This is just over the last 3 or so years IMO. It used to be that positions for “acting up” were advertised and expressions of interest asked for internally, at least. These days, people are “magic wanded” into acting positions – no expressions of interest at all. I’ve seen people “magic wanded” into acting positions who were not even employed by the ACT Govt. not as casuals and not as contractors. Just because they were related to or “knew” someone. It’s a sick, sick workplace, in my opinion.

Addison said :

The APS selection process is a waste of time. Even in large companies, it’s much better. Personally, I don’t really see the need to have such a transparent staff selection process. Sometimes it will work for you, sometimes against. If you’re a pain in the proverbial you won’t get the job anyway…

Everyone says “they don’t see the need for a transparent selection process” until something goes wrong, then they’re the first people to jump up. The length of time in the process will depend between agencies and I’m there are likely to be many variables in the process, e.g. number of applicants, quality of applicants, other work priorities. I’ve applied for many jobs both public and private and can say the recruitment process for most are fairly similar, normally 4-6 weeks at a minimum. Though my current job (government) took under 2 weeks.

Agree totally, OzPhoenix. I recently saw a couple of government jobs advertised that I thought I might apply for and so I emailed the contact officers for more information and got their vacation message back saying they were on leave! They were supposed to be due back today but I have not had a response to my questions yet. If I was as tardy as this at replying to emails in my current job my company would probably lose customers and I would get a please explain from the boss.

Maybe with high-end executive type positions the process is somewhat justified but for low-end entry level jobs it is ridiculous.

Often (most times) the selection criteria is poorly written (copied) and asks the same question three or four times over in different ways but a different response is required each time.

A resume with an attached letter stating experience and qualifications relevant to the skills and qualifications needed for the position along with referee reports should be fine without having to answer inane gobbledygook double-dutch questions (selection criteria). If the applicant’s application is presentable (ie spelling, punctuation, grammar and layout/formatting is correct – if they can’t do the basics what hope have they got at doing the job properly?) and the person has the required experience, qualifications and skills then an interview can be granted.

It should only take a week maximum to make a decision after all the interviews have taken place.

Right ON!

I have been a selection panel member a number of times as well as the poor sod on the receiving end of the interview questions…hands sweaty, mouth dry, and mind…blank!

Notifying the successful applicant has taken from 3 days to 5 months…my own personal example: I applied for the job in June, got the interview call in September, found out I got the job in November, and started in January. And yes, the only reason why I was able to wait this long is because I was already employed…in the public service.

So…yes, not all that efficient however, when you find out you beat 50-odd other applicants (even the internal ones) and you did it without ‘knowing someone’ you have to believe the system works…well it did this time anyway:-)

the process basically hires clones because there is no training to have panels do anything differently. this theoretically shouldn’t be a difficult thing to overcome, but it seems irrepressibly entrenched.

working for an academic body a while back i was instrumental in hiring a candidate who answered the selection criteria in two paragraphs. this response came about as the candidate had never had ‘training’ in answering selection criteria – the HR unit of the academic centre was aghast when told the candidate was to be interviewed, seemingly convinced said applicant had excised itself from the process with the understood paucity of the application – but for mine the applicant gave me enough information to warrant speaking with them. in this, and in other selection processes for this academic body, we finalised a process in hours, not weeks, and had staff commence in days, not months. it really wasn’t hard.

the public service, from my experience is far more entrenched in looking for clones and the process seems unnecessarily cumbersome as panel reports can sit with delegates for days/weeks and no-one pushes it along. it really shouldn’t take more than a week from interviews to sign-off, but rarely takes less than a month. only an already-employed person will suffer this delay, so it is a process unlikely in the extreme to attract quality candidates from outside the PS, so unlikely to attract the real cream of the talent to the gig. there are many other ways in which the process should be overhauled, streamlined and made genuinely a process to attract genuine talent to the PS.

so much for krudd’s recently voiced ambition to make it a world class outfit!

It’s not just about being fair; it’s about being seen to be fair. The trade-off for the long lead time is that once you’re in, it is very hard to get rid of you.

If the process was any less regulated we would have people on this site complaining jobs paid for with public money are being awarded to those who don’t deserve them.

As a public servant I do agree there is much to be done to improve efficiency but we must note that those who work in the public service can be / are under intense public scrutiny that private companies don’t have to deal with anywhere near as much. Public servants will always have someone after them trying to make them look bad. This is why we need to cover our asses with a thoroughly documented process that includes checks and balances, unfortuantely such a system is often slow.

To avoid going for an already filled job all you have to do is ring up and ask if there is someone acting in the position. If yes, walk away unless you think you are perfect for the job.

Happy job hunting. 🙂

The APS selection process is a waste of time. Even in large companies, it’s much better. Personally, I don’t really see the need to have such a transparent staff selection process. Sometimes it will work for you, sometimes against. If you’re a pain in the proverbial you won’t get the job anyway…

I’m a professional scribe for APS selection processes, and some of the points made are valid. No matter how much the process is simplified and streamlined, it is still costly, cumbersome and time-consuming.

However, it’s a bit like the Winston Churchill quote, “Democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.” No-one has yet come up with an alternative process that is still accountable and transparent.

I can say quite categorically that, as an independent person on selection panels, I have not seen any unfair process. My turnaround time as a scribe is very good and the time taken to finalise the process is generally not too bad.

My sone was involved in a Defence selection that took some 4 months to complete, which was quite wrong. There was no scribe and the panel simply didn’t get its act together.

I think that CK is right – other large organisations, whether public, private or NFP, also has clumsy processes that also take time.

Until someone comes up with something better, we’re stuck with it. Assessment Centres, less formal processes, etc don’t fit that bill.

What I do like about the APS selection process is that Orders of Merit are created, whereby applicants that are rated as “suitable” or better can be hired over the ensuing 12 months without going back to re-advertising. There are significant savings there.

Clown Killer said :

But yeah, as with any big organisation there’s inefficiencies. Having seen inside the APS, the NSW PS and half a dozen of the top fifty publically listed companies in Australia I’m pretty convinced that the APS doesn’t do it any more or less inefficiently than the big-end of the private sector.

Too true. But pointing the finger at public servants is more fashionable. I’ve come across slack individuals and stupid procedures in both the public and private sectors.

There are limited circumstances in which the Public Service Act actually allows for direct appointment, so even where that is the agency’s intention, they are legally required to go through the motions. It is irritating, it is inefficient, and from the standpoint of a PS who has to re-apply for their position every 12 months, it’s nerve-wracking not knowing whether they *are* just going through the motions, or whether you might be in line for replacement (stupid non-ongoing APS positions…grrr).

PURSUTE said :

However, I have always been under the impression that government organisations have to conform to far stricter and more complex process …

I assure you, it’s a case of “be SEEN TO conform”. An APS selection committee, if they want you, will hire you. If they don’t want you, they will knock you out at the shortlisting stage on a pretext, so they don’t have to really consider you. Beware of committees that don’t let you furnish a written referee report. Verbal reports are just one of the “tweakable” elements a committee will use. Having a scribe present will only reduce the committee conversation to nods and winks and nothing stated openly. Without a scribe, they’ll say anything to each other. A manager recently boasted to me that she hires whoever she wants and ignores the APS code of conduct. She is very successful – which means her approach is reflected higher up. Another manager recently coached a junior staffer and got her to resubmit her poor application – magically improved.

The best way to get into the APS is via contracts – make yourself an insider. Take a job a rung or two lower than you expect at first – if you’re liked, you’ll be in and can rise quickly.

If you have to ask why the APS has this process? You’ve obviously never been responsible for trying to sack someone from the APS.

But yeah, as with any big organisation there’s inefficiencies. Having seen inside the APS, the NSW PS and half a dozen of the top fifty publically listed companies in Australia I’m pretty convinced that the APS doesn’t do it any more or less inefficiently than the big-end of the private sector.

The thing I don’t understand is – the legislation specifically allows for direct appointment, so if someone was desperately wanted for a role, there’s no need to go through the pretence of a selection process.

I’m in a similar position OzPhoenix. I have never actually worked in the APS, however am frequently working around and with the APS. I feel simmilar frustration at the seemingly endless waste of time and money (MY money!).

However, I have always been under the impression that government organisations have to conform to far stricter and more complex process *because* it’s public money they are using. Unfortunately this leads to loads of that public time and money being wasted.