Half of drug users mentally ill?

vg – I can understand that maybe you have seen a lot of the negative effects of drugs. hence the black and white view – personally I don’t blame you for having that view in your profession – same goes for nyssa with her sister. the issue in’t black and white but I guess you can’t argue that with people who are only willing to look at it from their own eyes.

Cars are far more dangerous than any drug.

I’ll look at the situation from ‘their eyes’ when they start looking at it from mine occasionally.

Prohibition hasn’t ‘failed miserably’…..don’t believe that hype. People still drink drive, should we give up on that as well

You want to understand these people… you want to make them stop… you need to try and look at the situation from their eyes. Its all well and good to say get off your arse… but I have known some of the most intolerable losers in my life and my analysis of them is that they are in essence lazy and laziness can be a manifestation of shyness, esteem blah blah… In their laziness they look for the quickest fix.. think about it.. why would they put in effort.. when they feel like they have already been stung.

I can’t believe I am pointing this out it is so logical… everyones brains develop differently.. they develop different patterns.. different coping mechanisms.. You cannot just expect someone to be able to rewire themselves and ‘get off their arse’. Of course it doesn’t mean that they can’t.. getting them to proactively want to is the problem.

However there is a better way than prohibition to reduce the impact they have on my life.

Exactly – prohibition has failed miserably

It’s not about feeling sorry for them it’s about reducing the cost to society (so being part of society it’s really just me selfishly advocating reduction in what I have to pay by way of tax/insurance). Prohibition is expensive (law enforcement, courts, corrections, etc) and just doesn’t work. Legalisation or some other form of regulation less extreme than prohibition doesn’t lead to an increase in drug use (examining countries that don’t prohibit drugs), if you want to use drugs they are readily available despite prohibition.

My tax payments and insurance payments will decrease if drugs are legalised, social problems will not increase and will probably decrease (in line with the price reduction of drugs and hence a reduction in $ seeking crime). Junkies will still be neglecting their kids, driving stoned etc but they’re doing that anyway (as are drunks).

Many people who take drugs are fucking shithead arseholes, many are not. Many people who drink are also fucking shithead arseholes. The fucking shithead arseholes will be just that, stoned or straight, drunk or sober.

The hypocrisy of legal system (and society) which allows the use of alcohol (a drug) while prohibiting other drugs is manifest. Alcohols legal status and other drugs illegality is a quirk of history, it is not based on any empirical foundation. There is no difference between alcohol users and other drug users other than in the eyes of the law. An alcohol dependent person and a cannabis dependent person roughly equivalent just as a person that has a couple (and I underline couple) of wines on a Saturday night is the same as someone who smokes cannabis on a Saturday night.

And since it seems that anyone who advocates legalisation of drugs is assumed to be a user I will state that I am not (and neither do I use alcohol, I like being able to think).

And since it is also assume that people who advocate legalisation of drugs has not been a victim of drug related crime I will state that recently I was burgled and lost $5K of stuff, I have dug a drug users knife out of my chest, and have had a drug user stick a double barrel shotty in my mouth (to name just a few violent incidents).

I’ve got no time for drug users (alcohol or otherwise) whose behaviour impacts upon my right to enjoy my life. I wouldn’t like to have to work with them (other than just banging their heads together). However there is a better way than prohibition to reduce the impact they have on my life.

“nyssa – disengage your self from your own situation”

Why should she? People know people who have the occasion choof and are suddenly experts on drug use, but someone with a family member who is a junkie should disengage themselves?

Drugs are an excuse, a cop out. People use them to ‘feel good’? Get off you arse and experience life, plenty to feel good about if you have an iota of self-motivation.

Next time your house gets broken into just keep thinking how poor and down trodden those who voluntarily use illegal drugs that have virtually no form of quality control are.

String em up is more than a little harsh, but feeling sorry for the poor little blighters is quite pathetic. They are criminals, nothing surer

AD, it’s ironic that you talk about rape victims. However, there are rape victims who never turn to drugs.

Hell, to think if I took drugs, broke into someone’s house etc, I’d have a great defence for not accepting the consequences of my actions.

nyssa – disengage your self from your own situation, because I’m sure that the issue runs deeper than just your sisters drug use.

Now hypothetically think about the poor girl who gets repeatedly raped by a family member or friend… never learns to get help, because she is off with the faeries. Grows up into prostitution, gets hooked on heroin because it is a release, hooks up with other junkies because they have some level of understanding.. feels dirty against this horrible world, so participates in crime.

Do you think this person deserves to be strung up.. or do you think that they need some level help… be it counselling mixed tapered dosages of controlled heroin. Don’t tell me it doesn’t happen.. because it does..

maybe sometimes drugs are a persons only release, do you blame them.

Binker, what argument, Ari’s a tool trying to bait me with the “racist” argument.

Why does he need you to fight his battles?

Junkies shouldn’t be treated with the BS “softly softly” mantra. They chose to shoot up etc. Why should we “choose” to put up with their actions?

Not about Ari’s BS need to feel important.

she says completely missing the point of the argument

Ari, get stuffed.

Go and crawl back under your rock.

Junkies chose to take drugs and again I’ll blow a hole in your argument re: Aboriginals.

One is RACE, the other is a CHOICE.

Wake up to yourself.

Yet again, Nyssa uses her ever-ready victim card to inform her debating tactics.

I’ve made the point before, but I’ll do it again.

If one substituted the word “Aboriginals” for “junkies” in Nyssa’s statement “String up all junkies”, everyone would be horrified.

But it seems to be OK to make such a statement about junkies.

Nyssa will inevitably accuse me of racism for saying that, but I’m just making the point that people are being very selective about which marginalised groups they’re now allowed to hate.

Junkies are not some sort of different species, they exist throughout society. Most function adequately without resorting to crime (apart from the actual act of using).

I’m sure most people on RiotACT know several well functioning junkies … they just don’t know that they do.

And I’ll stress I don’t think that all Aboriginals should be strung up, neither do I think junkies should be.

simto, it does affect me when Child Services calls me and says they have have my nephew and would I take him. It affected me when she would break into my room (when I lived at home) and steals my stuff for her “hits”.

String up all junkies.

Enough said.

I never said safe 🙂

You can’t make drug use “safe”, snahon, only “safer”.

no more than anything else in life.

Ignoring all the social aspects attributed to drug use, surely those physiological symptons alone suggest that drug and safety are rather mutually exclusive ?

Thumper – you could get them to sign a waver. Force them to take responsibility for their actions…

Down to drug safety:
Pure heroin in regulated doses is one of the safest drugs you can get. Heroin doesn’t cause psychosis or violent behaviour, but the withdrawals are messy.
Amphetamines are a bit scarier. Their messing with the dopamine and norepinephrine pathways can lead to some pretty ugly behaviour in high doses. The withdrawals are really unpleasant – meth addicts are way more dangerous than smackies.
Ecstasy is an amphetamine derivative. The withdrawals won’t turn you into a nutter, but you’ll have a lot of depressed people.
Marijuana is so widely used I won’t bore you with the details.
Ketamine, PCP, GHB and other dissociatives can cause some unpleasant behaviour, but I’m not too sure of the long term implications. I’m not aware of people getting addicted to the stuff (though if anyone knows different, I’ll accept that).

Controlled legalisation’s aim isn’t to stop people using (you can’t – accept it), just to stop them dying and reducing the burden on the rest of society from their illegal activities.

Hows this for a solution… a variant on work for the dole.. you must work on certain government programs like those cleanup vans that drive around… you get a reduced amount of money on the dole… but you also get your prescription heroin shots for free. If you underperform or don’t turn up.. you don’t get your shots. Could reduce crime a bit.

Snahon.. I assume you are refering to the mental issues associated with drug use… I am sure if they are legalised and standardised, the chemists will be able to reduce the negative effects of a drug..

Johnboy – why bother with the US DEA – this is australia – Illicit Drug Data Report can be found here http://www.crimecommission.gov.au/content/publications/iddr_2004_05/72dpi%20FINAL%20IDDR%202006.pdf

thats right JB, they should be made responsible for their own actions and people always find ways to screw up their lives with any available substance but legalising isn’t a magic cure all either as the picture seems to be painted (to me anyway) by the advocacy of legalisation.

Unfortunately making people responsible for themselves is something western society is extremely poor at. As examples, the proportion of people who get some sort of welfare and the level of litigation (someone’s to BLAME, dammit).

Making people more responsible for themselves is definitely a step in the right direction. It won’t be easy to do when you have a population that believes they have a very long list of entitlements, though.

Hey johnboy, if you can show me how to get an extra 40 horsepower by running the V8 on heroin, I’ll be all for it! Seriously.

If people want to snort petrol that’s fine. Wait till we run our cars on pure ethanol…

So make people responsible for their own lives snahon,

some people will find a way to screw up their lives with any available substance.

We can argue whether they should be helped or left to die, but filling the courts and prisons with them seems a worst possible approach.

Or alice springs where they’re getting strung out on the perfidious unleaded petrol.

Danman hits the point. By legalising them in no way increases control of a persons behaviour. Nor does it create environments where users are purely safe and can’t cause harm to others.

Surely Alcohol and Nicotine already show us that you cannot control usage of these legal “drugs” and that addiction and excessive use already causes heaps of social problems.

How is legalising and ‘controlling’ ilicit drug going to bare any different results. Criminal activity is only one aspect of drug use and legalising them isn’t going to magically cause all the other issues to disappear.

“And that’s a question people should answer for themselves. “

I’m not sure people can do that without medical facts to back them up? We know that small amounts of alcohol are beneficial, in certain forms. We know that smoking is bad for the body. What about the physiological effects of heroin.

Deciding to use it is indeed an individual decision. Whether it is bad for you is something very different.

A world where $2 per shot heroin is legally available. Sounds kinda like Afganistan. I saw an interesting documentary recently on SBS where they followed some junkies who lived on the street. Over there you could buy a hit for 50 cents that would last all day!

“Perhaps a slightly different question needs to be asked: are illegal drugs actually bad for you?”

And that’s a question people should answer for themselves.

Here’s a paper by the US’s DEA.

Bearing in mind that costs would come down further still if the producers in Thailand didn’t have to pay off their police it puts the price in Thailand at $375 per kilogam, that’s 38c a gram.

I have gut feeling that the big boss dealers already deliberately plant a whole bunch of hotshots in the masses of drugs they send over.

Ever noticed that when something gets mentioned in the media regarding shooting room trials, there are bunch of drug related deaths? Thats the way I believel they scare the public and keep it illegal. Same if drugs aren’t in the media for a while, if there are no problems visable to the general public, then the public starts thinking that maybe the drugs aren’t so bad. Thats what the drug barons don’t want… they live off the negative perception of drugs.

The amount of opium that goes in to making a pkt of 36 panadine would make a 1 gram of heroin with no significant increase in manufacturing cost. My chemists homebrand panadiene cost about $6.50 for 48 tablets

Perhaps a slightly different question needs to be asked: are illegal drugs actually bad for you?

By the by – heroin is dirt cheap to make from start to finish of the supply chain.

Back in ’99 i heard from a dispensor in the methadone program that you could get a hit for as little as $6. That was during a massive flood in supply, much as we’re headed for this year.

Poppies will grow in marginal soil, need little water and fertiliser, and are quite easy to harvest. The gum comes out of the flower heads easily, and requires very little processing to convert it to heroin. The stuff is very low-volume and weight, so it’s cheap to ship.

I reckon $10 a shot is pushing it. Try $2.

I should add that I agree price will change sue to supply arrangements, but which way and how much?

Johnboy, can you explain to me exactly how the price will be so much cheaper given the quality controls that will be needed (not to mention the taxes to be paid on manufacturing, distribution, management of the intermediate organisations and retail distribution). Of course the drug cartels have themselves pretty well organised on this front, and no doubt the costs are huge. But unless you have actual figures then the entire argument about cost (especially by exactly how much) is nothing but pure speculation.

You’re already paying somehow. By legalising it’s not a matter of subsidising rather taking the massive profit in drugs away. The real cost of a gram of heroin is probably around $10 as opposed to the current street price of (and I’m guessing) $300. Thus all you do is remove the $290 untaxed dollars from the pockets of organised crime. The cost of insurance, law enforcement, corrections etc is also reduced. Also has since users no longer have to spend the life “chasing” they can perform some type of productive work. It should be noted that there are plenty of people who have huge (and I mean $1000 a day in street terms) morphine habits due to chronic pain (eg degenerative spine conditions) and they are often highly productive (having worked with such people).

RE OD-ing – I had a pretty good insight when i watched Mark Singers documentary called Dark Days (Its about people who live in shanty towns in Amtrac tunnels in the US for those who dont know). O

ne of the guys was explaining that his 1st high on crack was the highest he ever got and ever since then he has been trying to get to the point of just (minutely) before OD-ing.

Thats because this is as high as they can get ithout dying. Ever since his 1st hit he has been chasing the same high.

To that end I dont believe that low strength analgesic IV drugs supplied in an injection room will be of any merit.

It is one thing to legalise but its another to get into the head of a junkie and know why they do it.

If you dont know why – how then do you expect to control someones behaviour with safe low strength injecting premises. Liek I said before – a govt conspiracy – even announce it on national media that fentanyl based smack is being randomly distrubuted – see who drops and who quits. Hardline approach – but giving a junkie warm safe place to shoot his gear in his arm isnt going to do anything to them helping quit. Seeing a dozen or so fellow junkies drop with a needle in their arm should be a pretty good incentive methinks.

Not asking anyone to agree with me – but this is my opinion.

LOL Danman. Did see the article, but didn’t make the cookbook connection.

“In this edition of the southern NSW CWA cookbook, Betty from the Leeton branch’s recipe for brownies will get you righteously fucked up” – love it.

The markup on illegallity was around 5x during the prohibition on alcohol in the US (IIRC).

“Why take the V6 version when you can tweak it and get the power of a V8.”

Pure gold! Did I buy a V8 so I could drive it like a 6? No I did not!

because the price of legal heroin would allow them to take 10 doses for the price of the illegal gear.

go read trainspotting.

“we’d have injected vitamin C if only they’d made it illegal”

Go read some history too while you’re there.

Stop reading the daily telegraph and watching Today Tonight and ACA.

Maybe then you’ll find a clue.

I must admit I’m a little in the dark about what the legal price point would be. Many regular medications, including lots of prescriptions, are subsudised by the govt (PBS). I don’t mind paying tax to help out with cancer medications or exotic antibiotics, but I can’t see too many Aussies being happy to subsidise junkies getting a fix. Also, if the price goes from $50 to $10 (just as an example), wouldn’t that just mean the junkies pay less for a shot?

know not now

On another tangent – did anyone see the news article RE the CWA advocating the use of medicinal marijuana – tho they said no recipes will be appearing in their books. Top darts i reckon – gave me a chuckle.

and if users want to maximise the effectiveness of their legal dose I hardly think smoking it will become the norm again. Why take the V6 version when you can tweak it and get the power of a V8. Especially since addicts are already accustomed to the V8. They’ll either take multiple dosages (since presumable the concentration would be controlled like most other legal drugs and may not be what they need to feel as though the drug has done its job) or they’ll again find ways to increase its effectiveness. We’re back to square one.

I would not be a “low strength clean version” it would be of consistent strength so that dose regulation would be easy and hence OD’s would be diminished. It doesn’t really matter if it were low or high strength users would just take more or less of it, the point being they would now pretty exactly how much they needed to take and how much was too much. Pretty much just like alcohol re beer v spirits.

As for “countries that don’t have a drug problem” – you’d basically be talking about the counties in which everyone is naturally happy, fully employed, in which even the least capable person is able to find satisfying fulfilling work.

If you can find such a country, VY, let me know. In the meanwhile, keeping drugs illegal is helping drug dealers get rich. And absolutely nobody else.

So all those addicts who can get their low strength clean version are going to be satisified with what they get ?

The readily accessible legal drugs (alcohol and tobacco) cause enough social problems as it is, how is making illicit drugs legal going to change this?

Furthmore tempestas, In your history lesson are you comparing exact same concentrations ?

I think you’ll find its called reckless driving already tempestas and what does that have to do with the suggestion of random drug testing ? – We already have random breath testing so if you are going to legalise illicit drug use why is not reasonable to suggest that random drug testing would be in order ?

There won’t be injecting rooms and there won’t be much injection.

The dangers that currently require injecting rooms are due to the uncertainties of the dose.

Furthermore heroin injection only became the norm after the illicit supply forced prices up to the point where users wanted to maximise the effectiveness of a dose.

At a legal price point you’ll find they’ll be back to smoking it.

Sorry missed the other half for some reason.

This seems to be based on the assumption that legalisation/less restrictive regulation will lead to an increase in substance use. This is unsupported by the evidence, for eg Holland where substance use is legal hasn’t seen an increase in use compared with the use prior to legalisation. It does however attract the immigration of substance users from across Europe. This is not likely to be a problem in Australia as the only people who could immigrate to avail themselves of legalisation would be Kiwi’s and there already here.

Also given that Dependenace on all drigs (including alcohol eg DSM 303.90 Alcohol Dependence) are mental illnesses I would have thought that technically 100% of the users would have been mentally ill. I mean drug and alcohol services are set up to provide assistance/treatment for people with mentall illnesses that are due to substances.

“it’s much easier to make an injecting location a commercial, self-sustaining operation”

Unfortunately this implies economy of scale. Lots and lots of junkies. Can’t wait to set my consulting business up next door to that!

Alot more money that would then have to be spent on other stuff anyway, eg
Further campaign about ‘responsible’ drug use.
Child support services for those parents who are whacked out of their heads and can’t care for their kids.
Policing so they can run random drug driving tests.

“As for Random drug testing, how about random idiot/incapable of driving testing as well, on Canberra roads such a squad would be able to make $15 grand a morning on Adelaide Av or the Tugg Parkway.”

This is a brilliant idea. Perhaps our pollies could instruct Police to enforce something other than speeding for a change. Things like lane usage, indicating, etc.

We’re already spending money on all three:

Campaigns about ‘responsible’ drug use.
Child support services for those parents who are whacked out of their heads and can’t care for their kids.
Policing so they can run random drug driving tests.

Would legalising it really massively increase the number of people using? That’s the only way that your increased cost argument really holds any water.

If drugs become a legal product, it’s much easier to make an injecting location a commercial, self-sustaining operation. Which means less government funding, not more.

If you’re going to legalise syringe administered drugs I don’t see how you could do it without an injecting room. Personally I don’t like the idea of the syringe slipping through the junkies fingers onto the floor to be played with by their 2 year old kid. Nor do I like what I currently see on my walk from the office to the city – used needles on the footpath of Northbourne Ave. The same footpath other humans have to use. One of the main reasons people inject this crap is because it is the most effective means of administering it. There’s also the other issues around needle sharing and the spread of diseases.

If we have data suggesting harsher penalties don’t work, then maybe there’s some data showing what does work. Anyone know anything about this? Perhaps we need to identify some countries where there isn’t a drug problem (do they even exist?) and look at how they handle the issues.

Let’s also not forget how this thread started: a large percentage of those seeking help with drug addictions are also mentally ill. What does this tell us?

Oh, and to respond to an earlier remark, I am teaching my kids that drugs are for losers. I won’t be shouting or screaming, just encouraging my kids to keep their eyes open and see the types of things the regular users do, and how they behave. I’ll also be telling them that having their own opinion is ok.

“of course how very stupid of me, its the method with which the drug is taken that is the problem, not the drug itself…”

Got it in one. Heroin was originally made by a pharmco to be less addictive than morphine for war hero’s with injuries post WW1.

“again, how very stupid of me, its the impurities that really fuck you up, not the ‘clean’ version…”

Yep Heroin was in cough medicine up until 1942 when it was banned, better for you, less risks than alcohol as a cough suppressant. In fact the pure stuff under medical supervison is apparently quite an effective and useful painkiller for extreme pain.

It seems you are doing your level best to prove JB’s arguments right.

If its about harm trafficking and profiteering from Tobacco should have long sentences and massive fines, but these are legitimate big companies and tax bases.

Making something that people want and will try to get illegal keeps the organised crims flush with the dollars and always willing to cut corners.

The “war on drugs” has cost billions and probably has done bugger all to improve the lives of addicts. Yes addicted people are not nice to have around, but if they have a mental illness that is what should be treated. Their symptoms of drug use will decline as they get better.

As for Random drug testing, how about random idiot/incapable of driving testing as well, on Canberra roads such a squad would be able to make $15 grand a morning on Adelaide Av or the Tugg Parkway.

Snahon you are basically telling us that you are content with the amount of drug related crime that is occuring in Australia and that if anything we should make penalties harsher… which has proven to work…hm let me see…no where.

But in countries where they have at the very least setup injecting rooms, there has been a massive reduction in crime.

Well if we’re going to go piece by piece…

“Nope, because with legitimate supply the marketing bods will come up with better ways to take the drug that have less stigma and danger.”

of course how very stupid of me, its the method with which the drug is taken that is the problem, not the drug itself…

“Furthermore the need for safe injecting rooms is largely driven by the dangers of impurities in the illicit supply.”

again, how very stupid of me, its the impurities that really fuck you up, not the ‘clean’ version…

“On the other hand if the black economy of the drug trade was brought into the light of tax and excise the Government would have a lot more money and a lot less law enforcement costs. I realise this would be a blow to the members of the law enforcement community who traffic drugs themselves but them’s the breaks.”

Alot more money that would then have to be spent on other stuff anyway, eg
Further campaign about ‘responsible’ drug use.
Child support services for those parents who are whacked out of their heads and can’t care for their kids.
Policing so they can run random drug driving tests.

“I think they’d prefer if the chances of harm could be reduced and the cops not come breaking down the door. Leave them to sort themselves out I say.”

Thats pretty obvious but hardly consider it a valid reason to legalise drugs.

AD – pretty much only time i have smokes is Fri Arvo Debrief and they are always op’s.

Danman – I am at a pretty similar place with my smoking, although last couple of weeks I have smoked a bit more…. but can go cold turkey at the drop of a hat no stress, even after 12 years of being a smoker.

I look forward to smoking being banned from pubs… because beer and ciggies is my only weakness.

Prohibition can also eliminate legitimate usage of good medications. Heroin/weed both have beneficial effects if able to be used for specific medical conditions, but the illegal trade means they are not regulated.
Conversely, some controlled prescription drugs are highly addictive and problematic, eg benzos.

I think a balance is needed. This can never be achieved without regulation, and regulation can never be achieved while there is prohibition/illegality.

Tell me how making it illegal has stopped people using them?

You’re hard to argue with Snahon because you’re very stupid.

But going through your ignorant and small minded points here we go:

So let me get this right, all those advocating the legalisation of drugs would set up “controlled” shoot up rooms so that all those users get ’safely’ get their hit..

Nope, because with legitimate supply the marketing bods will come up with better ways to take the drug that have less stigma and danger.

Furthermore the need for safe injecting rooms is largely driven by the dangers of impurities in the illicit supply.

What about those idiots that take PCP, etc where they basically flip out ? Do we create padded cells and lock them in it so they can get their hits and be in safe environment where they can’t do much damage ? I’m so sure that a PCP user is going to want to do that

As opposed to the drunks in Civic on a Friday night? How about we treat the wave of PCP crazies (a very rare phenomenon) the same way? Jeez, that was easy wasn’t it?

Who’s going to pay for that one ? oh thats right, the government… and I’m soooo sure that the $10 a hit fee is going to cover all those expenses.

On the other hand if the black economy of the drug trade was brought into the light of tax and excise the Government would have a lot more money and a lot less law enforcement costs. I realise this would be a blow to the members of the law enforcement community who traffic drugs themselves but them’s the breaks.

If they cause themselves harm don’t expect me to come to the rescue.

I think they’d prefer if the chances of harm could be reduced and the cops not come breaking down the door. Leave them to sort themselves out I say.

Tell me how leaving them illegal is solving the problem?

I haven’t really heard that much about PCP… I don’t believe there is much in australia…

The one drug that I believe should maintain illegal status is GHB. Haven’t touched it never would…. that drug is seriously dangerous… I have seen so many people OD from it. You can make the shit from paint stripper.

Johnboy – we already have a government murder program – Tobacco is only legalised in order to line the pockets of the government through excise on tobacco products.

With all the CONFIRMED smoking related deaths the government thinks an easy cop out is to put nasty pictures on cigarette packets and have a new media campaign.

They know tobacco smoke is a carcinogen – and with all the dilemas with governments trying to establish non smoking areas to drink a brew play pokies or whatever your taxgiving passtime may be – and why – to protect non smokers health – what about protecting smokers health by banning them altogether – naah that will cost the government too much in tax – so instead they make themselves look like they give half a shit with government warnings and protecting the health of the non smoking passive smoker –

all the while the politicians are eating foi gras and truffle oil ravioli and drinking vintage white – all paid for by the proceeds of crime (paramount to genocide imo) – tax gained from sales on tobbacco and tobacco related products.

Ban em.

Oh and for the record I have 1 to 2 smokes a week – when i want them, not when I need them, so to that end I am a smoker – tho not addicted – i go without when I have none – so not at all biased towards non smokers.

Tell me how legalising is solve all worlds ills associated with drugs ?

So let me get this right, all those advocating the legalisation of drugs would set up “controlled” shoot up rooms so that all those users get ‘safely’ get their hit.. (lets ignore the other side effects of drug use, socially and health wise).

What about those idiots that take PCP, etc where they basically flip out ? Do we create padded cells and lock them in it so they can get their hits and be in safe environment where they can’t do much damage ? I’m so sure that a PCP user is going to want to do that …

Who’s going to pay for that one ? oh thats right, the government… and I’m soooo sure that the $10 a hit fee is going to cover all those expenses.

Sorry but i can’t exactly see how legalising is just going to solve the worlds ill’s of drug probelms.

Experimentation has its risks and those who think the risk is worth the couple of hours reward are just stupid. If they cause themselves harm don’t expect me to come to the rescue.

Out in central australia they’re trying to make standard unleaded petrol illegal to stop people abusing it.

We can’t even keep drugs out of our prisons.

All prohibition is doing is making criminals rich and powerful, while increasing the damage done by drug use.

But hey, if it makes you feel better to despise people then by all means let’s have a government murder program.

I reckon we need a guvmint conspiracy to have fentanyl laced heroin and e’s – should make short work of 90% the druggo’s and would sure make anyone considering that path to have a long hard look at themselves. Would have saved me a lot of time and giving a shit with a certain junkie i knew.

I have seen all sides of drug use, so I think that I am equally entitled to my strong onion.

VY – you feel comfortable that if your kids experiment with drugs that they may be the unlucky one in a thousand to get the dodgey pill?

This is always going to be a contentious topic, and I suspect those people who have seen the real harm that can be caused are often going to have a strong opinion.

Personally, I don’t apologise for feeling strongly about this. The fact that many kids experiment with the shit is no reason to condone it (and really, what else are we doing by legalising it?). Of course it could be made safer if govco managed and taxed it, but we need to decide if that’s the type of country we want to live in.

Given that this is a COMMENT on a BLOG, my OPINION is string the bastards up.

Most people arguing for drug legalisation argue that the problems related to drug use are often tied into its illegality.

Would drugs get a whole lot cheaper if they were legalised? Yes.

Would this mean that people are going to steal less to get their fix? Yes.

Who’s making money out of drugs being illegal? Dealers, mostly.

Now, you may want to string ’em all up, but unfortunately you don’t live in a country that has the death penalty. Indonesia, incidentally, has a much greater drug problem than here, pretty much proving that the death penalty doesn’t stop drug use. But if you want to agitate for one, be my guest. It’ll be a pretty useless cause, but at least it’ll keep you busy.

Nyssa, the fact that your sister is a loser and a waste of space is undoubtedly a problem. But as long as you can keep your distance from her, it’s her problem, not yours.

Tempestas, I doubt it.

AD is ignoring the harm caused by junkies. I’m not.

Anyone been to the ABC Flats recently? Cleaned up my arse, that’s why Burnie Court at Lyons was closed – 1) they were old and shite and 2) they were the biggest drug den in Canberra.

Who did it harm? Every tax payer in Canberra who helped pay for it to be demolished, relocation of tennants, and it still sits there with nothing on it.

Sorry nyssa its got to be said

“At least alcoholics don’t hold you up with a used syringe and try to tell you it’s full of the AIDS virus, just so they can get some money for their next hit.”

Once alcohol is $50 a hit just wait, some alcoholic will use a syringe, a bat, their fists anything to get that next drink, this is different to “illegal” drugs how exactly.

Sounds like you have had some rotten personal experiences but the distinction made between legal and illegal is mostly about politics not harm.

Why do I get the feeling that some people can tell difference between “people” who are messed up and “drugs” which are substances that messed up people seem to get into a habit of using. If you know someone who is messed up and they do stupid things – its not the drugs that “made them do it” its them. That said if heroin (orginally a trademark) was given to junkies free – would crime go up – no they would be blissfully smacked out all the time and be asleep on couches or floors. Of course the utter waste of their lives might encourage them to od,

The point here is that they have problems before drugs enter the picture, focussing all the intention on the drug is pointless, focus on the people and get them to sort out their problems.

The truth of the matter is that a lot of drug use makes some people lots of $m that is why they stay illegal. If a drug was to be illegal on the basis of damage Nicotine would of been banned a century or so ago.

PS The most abused and overused drug in the world is…..

Caffiene

I’d prefer they never touch the crap. I sure as hell didn’t.

They have a great example on what happens to you if you do do drugs – their junkie auntie.

Statistics also suggest that a large percentage of youth will experiment with drugs.. and these days ecstasy use is as common as drinking amongst youth. Would you prefer your kids to be experimenting with uncontrolled dosages or controlled dosages.. as someone who is severely over-protective, if i were to ever have kids I know that I would prefer them to be able to purchase controlled drugs than to go to some dodgey flats and pick up something unknown.

experimentation is inevitable in most cases.

Make people work for their drug use? WTF?

Make junkies work to pay back the people they steal off to get their drugs, then there’s the people they bash for money for their drugs, then there’s the kids who are fucked up because of said drug use (especially when mother is pregnant).

String them up.

At least alcoholics don’t hold you up with a used syringe and try to tell you it’s full of the AIDS virus, just so they can get some money for their next hit.

“…then ban people who shouldn’t be having children from having them.” AD, that could be my mum talkin’! She rightly points out that the Government makes you get a permit to keep a dog, but any dip-shit can go and have themselves a kid…

and drug prohibition is working so very well right now isn’t it?

Snahon – drugs are already there.. but at the moment it is uncontrolled… control it to an extent…lessen the damage… ‘damage’ can occur because dosage is uncontrolled.. control dosage there is one problem solved. Make people work for their drug use… there is another problem solved.

BAM!

AD – you can’t control alcohol use and abuse, what on earth makes you think that you can legalise and ‘control’ illegal drug use ?

drinking one bottle of beer for instance has far less potential to create problems then shooting up one dose of heroin ?

Just because one thing is legal and has the potential to cause harm when abused does NOT make it right to legalise other activities that also have the potential cause harm.

And Yes there maybe alot of bad results from alcohol abuse so wouldn’t that SUGGEST by legalising drugs you are creating yet another avenue for “legal” abuse and damage ?

VY – I am not saying ban alcohol… I am saying legalise and control drug use… in the same sense as booze… more money for the goverment.. they should eat that shit up!!

As for your ABC’s, I would suggest that alcohol is equally as bad.. and infact worse for point B.

“Well – should we pillory speeders?”

No, just people with strong opinions, which is something our modern, free society doesn’t deal with very well.

“Right…sorry…we’re comparing apples and oranges…naughty me. “

Why compare at all? Why not look at each behaviour and its related outcomes and act accordingly?

As far as the kid who takes a puff in his room, I know a number of people who have permanent brain damage from a few such occasions.

Alcohol is legal, most people know the dangers. Why ban it? Govco makes tax $$ off it. You choose to use it? Up to you.

I don’t support the view of ‘just because you don’t like one thing ban everything else’. Frankly I think it’s a very shallow view of the world.
We know that:
a) illegal drugs have the potential to do a lot of damage to the user
b) lots of people’s lives are effected and/or ruined by them – directly or indirectly
c) drug taking can and often does lead to other criminal activity (either to source them or while under the influence).
Regardless of the presence of legal chemicals, illegal drugs are not a positive thing. Which is why I don’t support them.

In response to Johnboy’s comment, my thought is that what matters here is the outcome, not the motive (or excuses) of the driver. Being sorry doesn’t bring someone back to life or ‘uninjure’ them.

My, my, VY – we’ve gotten all fundamentalist, haven’t we.

Okay, indulge me here. What are the chances of a kid smoking some pot in his room of hurting someone? Two fifths of bugger all? What are the chances of the same kid getting in a car (say, a VY Berlina V8) and hurting someone? Remote, but more tangible. What is the bigger social ill?

Right…sorry…we’re comparing apples and oranges…naughty me.

How about this…

I don’t like people speeding. There is any amount of research to back up my assertion that people who speed are more likely to have an accident and kill themselves or someone else.

Well – should we pillory speeders? Should we lock people up who speed? I don’t like people who speed. I think they’re irresponsible and endanger the lives of others. I think anyone caught doing over the speed limit should be locked up.

Not paying attention for a split second? Overtaking? Driving a different car to normal? In a hurry? Listening to Nashville Pussy really fucking loud and got a little carried away? Too bad.

Oh. I hear the violins. Sorry VY, but say hello to your new cellmate. He’s been lonely since his last buddy died of anal hemmorage.

No. That’s a frickin’ stupid idea. You’d lock up everyone who wasn’t paying attention for a moment along with the congenital idiot repeat offender doing 200 in a 60 zone with no licence, rego or 3rd party.

This is pretty much what you’re proposing VY. Engage your brain.

I agree JB… reckless driving be it the result of drugs,alcohol or genuine stupidity.. throw away the keys.. more dangerous than any drug

Well then if you have no sympathy for them why don’t you advocate the banning of alcohol? same shit different smell..

Maybe people who drive recklessly and injure others should be punished for that and less consideration be put on their excuses, which might or might not include drug taking?

Yeah, I feel so sorry for drink drivers, child abusers and killers.

I’m with Nyssa – string ’em up.

nope, no sympathy for them either AD…

There is enough “awareness” out there relating to the “potential” harms attributed to drugs and alcohol that you can’t just “accidently” screw up.

Irrespective of your mixed up life, wrecking someone elses life is no excuse.

My sister, the junkie, was off her nut – anti-psychotics mixed with alcohol – got behind the wheel of her car.

Hit a damn car, almost killed the driver, herself (no loss), her bf (again no loss), left an 11yo at home who was taken by child services.

Fuck ’em. String them all up.

do you sympathise with people who drink too much and fuck up.. you know they fuck up and accidentally kill someone on the road, or accidentally beat up the kids, or get in a fight and king hit someone and kill them.

Do I hear them? Yes, I think I do. Violins. Boo-fucking-hoo. If you want to take drugs then fine, but don’t expect sympathy from me when something goes wrong.

I like snahon’s idea of automatic DNR on OD’ers. That way the poor misguided “middle-class white kids” who just shoot up for a laugh won’t be hurt.

Addiction to drugs is the symptom. You want to stop drug related crime, stop whatever is causing the symptom. If it does stem from someone’s mother not hugging them enough (as unlikely as that is)… then ban people who shouldn’t be having children from having them. That would solve a lot of the worlds problems.

I also think if you look at the percentage of people who have used drugs harder than pot and then compared that to how many of these people become addicted and commit crime to feed their addictions, you would find that it is a small percentage of people committing a large percentage of crime.

Oh do get your hand off it VY. I wasn’t suggesting anything of the sort.

Drug use in and of itself isn’t that big a problem. The major logical fallacy you’re committing here is that use = addiction. Most drug users are people who like the odd joint, pill or toot. It never becomes a problem, in the same way that most people who drink aren’t alcoholics.

Do you think slapping middle-class white kids with good futures in the pokey for 5 years for smoking a J is going to be an outcome that people are comfortable with? What in the name of Jesus-pole-vaulting-Christ does that achieve?

The people who become addicts also tend to not have much else going for them. Do you just shrug your shoulders and toss them on the scrapheap? Do you make prisons a massive dumping ground for the poor and the unemployed, a la the US? Or do you at least have a crack at making life without the drug worthwhile enough to have a go at.

You can’t save ‘em all, but you can’t write people off for making their wretched circumstances a little more bearable with drugs.

Addiction is a problem, but do you really think you’re going to stop someone who is prepared to break into houses, mug little old ladies or sell their arse on the wall for a hit with the threat of jail? If you do, you’re grossly naieve.

thats all fine AD but its the volume of acts of causing misery to others that lends itself to being illegal…

Perhaps the govt should have a law of DNR on all OD’ers – that way people definately take responsibility for their actions.

okay let me spell it out… life in all its phoney contructs is completely pointless, why not allow people to have fun during their cameo appearances here. If they cause misery to other people through crime lock them away… but if they are not hurting anyone, why not live and let live.

As far as I’m concerned, people are going to use drugs whether or not they’re illegal. So making them illegal just means that the state ends up taking responsibility for them (by locking ’em up) rather than letting them take responsibility for themselves.

It is perfectly possible to screw up your life, and the lives of everyone around you, on illegal drugs. But it’s just as possible to do that on legal drugs. I don’t see a great deal of difference there.

I feel remarkably little sympathy for druggies. So why would I want to be paying for their livelihoods by locking ’em up? Let ’em wipe themselves out…

How about we just rid of all the penalties then, and say “oh you poor thing, your mother mustn’t have held you enough”.

What a crock of shit. Take some personal responsibility, people!

If you really hate it… delve deeper into the problem. Why do people use drugs? because they feel really fucking good. Maybe some people spend a lot of time feeling less than really fucking good.

I stopped using drugs a few years ago because they were a destraction from my personal goals… coupled with the fact that I couldn’t stand a lot of people who used them.. those mostly being either complete losers who don’t have much going for themselves or those who fit in to societies norms but want some form of escape but don’t have the creative mechanisms to do so without drugs (essentially these people bored me when they were sober)…

And I’m sick of the bullshit rhetoric that says jacking up penalties for drug posession will solve the problem.

If memory serves, you could get 20 years for posession of a doobie in the 60’s (in some US states), but people still bought, sold and used the stuff. All it ended in was otherwise law-abiding citizens having thier lives destroyed for a bit of puff.

People often talk about prescription drugs and alcohol within the same context as illegal substances. The fact is illegal substances ARE harmful, and frequently cause damage to peoples’ lives (not just the user). The presence of other drug types is not an excuse for using an illegal substance. Druggies should consider themselves lucky I don’t get to set penalties for drug use. I think the zero tolerance policy is the only way to go: 5 years minimum gaol for anyone caught using or in possession, death for those found with a trafficable quantity.

I am sick of both the drugs and the lame excuses.

No idea why Tempestas but folks have been looking for a social, recreational or cultural high since we lived in caves – so it aint a new thing that can be blamed on our ‘modern’ lives.

Just another excuse

Any drug used appropriately for the relevant reason is fairly safe in the risk value sense. However some drugs are easier to abuse than others. Abuse of any drug, even aspirin or parecetamol can be dangerous or fatal.

Now some people who are mentally ill (whatever we take that to mean) take drugs (legal and otherwise)as a form of “self-medication” This leads to what the medico’s see as Dual-diagnosis. For some interesting thoughts on this topic look up Alex Wodak from St Vincents.

I think we need to look at how social stigma against being mentally ill and against being a drug user gets combined and makes such people very difficult to treat, especially as one tends to excerbate the other.

There are people out there who really need help, victimising them because of one aspect of their illnesses is hardly helpful.

AD – the broader or big picture issue is easier said as “what is it about our culture or society that seems to encourage some people to pursue a altered reality – given that the means of altering can be potentially desctructive or fatal?”

AD – “It’s more to the point that life has been rendered pointless as a result of misused conciousness… there is not much to be happy about… and the only things worth being happy about are accentuated on drugs…”

If you send me your phone number and name I can refer you on to some councelling services if you would like.

its deeper than that. It’s more to the point that life has been rendered pointless as a result of misused conciousness… there is not much to be happy about… and the only things worth being happy about are accentuated on drugs…

why do we work. why do we have all these belief systems. I question it because I am stuck in this system that apparently is good because I contribute something society. Unfortunately Society contributes fuck all to the people who are a part of it. I don’t agree with those who lie around fucked all day and then go out and commit crime…. but they are living are very instinctual lifestyle…. maybe its the way we are supposed to be.

Perhaps controlled drugs can curtail their negative effects butI also know people who abuse alcohol and become absolute monsters when they are on it. Alcoholism has severely impacted several of my family members life – passively.

The ACT Government has just released a discussion paper on the Review of the ACT Mental Health (Treatment and Care) Act 1994(http://www.health.act.gov.au/c/health?a=sendfile&ft=p&fid=1156212660&sid). I don’t know how to do the linking bit – if you go to the Health website, don’t expect to easily find it as thjey’ve tucked it away as if to make sure they don’t get any responses.

Perhaps, given the way in which many Riotacters express pretty firm opinions on many matters, the Riotact could put together a response to this paper?

Given that the existing Act is 12 years old, and that the consultation for that would have taken place a year or two earlier, what is being decided now will determine how we deal with MH issues in the ACT for at least another 15 years, if not much longer.

The discussion paper is very wide ranging, including the establishment of a MH precinct at TCH (which includes a secure unit) and another unit at the prison.

From what I can tell, the ACT has quite a different approach to other jurisdictions, where the primary secure unit is considered to be a health facility rather than a correctional one.

Is that the right way? If there are some themes in all this, then RA subscribers should lodge a response to the Discussion Paper.

hey guys ever heard of the words BRAINWASHED… personally I can never understand why people are so critical of drugs… some people want to live a lifestyle of actually feeling good and not working.. If the governments offered more to support this lifestyle.. the world would be a much better place

and special g the issue isn’t when they are on them… it is when they are off them.

Its just another excuse for the Courts when they break into your home or rob you at knifepoint in the streets.

Most of them would be fine if they stayed of the gear. That shit will f#*k with anyones head.

They don’t seek help or want it except when it comes to funding their chosen lifestyle.

There is a problem with the artificial separation in the way the health system deals with the mentally ill and the drug addicted. A close friend’s family, in trying to deal with their loved one’s (pharmaceutical drug) addiction and compounded mental disorder,has been fobbed off more than once by mental health and told to go to drug and alcohol first, and vice versa.

No surprises here – seems the mentally ill struggle to get the help they need nowadays.

In my sister’s case, the drugs have brought on a “family history” of bi polar.

Luckily we’re half-sisters and I have never taken drugs.

She’s a basket case who takes her bf’s anti-psychotic drugs (self-medication) rather than see a specialist.

It’s not surprising (the article) but who takes them? Mental Health or Drug Rehab? Both will try to palm them off to the other.

Same with mental illness in youth and CAHMS/ACT Dept. of Education.

I started drinking because everyone around me was miserable. Now they’re drinking too, which makes me miserable.