Local academic accused of anti-Israeli bias

Hey, isn’t the weather just wonderful at the moment.

Cool mornings but quite mild during the day.

It’s great to be living in Canberra.

No it isn’t. And I’m pretty sure that no-one in the Israeli administration is naieve enough to expect that it will.

Their aim is to weaken Hezbollah to the point where it can’t make effective cross border raids or lob rockets into its Northern towns.

Hezbollah will spend time recruiting, re-equipping, and rearming, and will hit them again. Israel will respond in kind. And on the meat-grinder runs.

Of course, the subtext to your arguement is that that there IS a solution to the Middle East conflict that involves Israel not being “wiped off the map”, the Arabs nations not being utterly subjugated, or the whole messy situation not ending in a nuclear inferno.

I’d like to think that the Middle East can get it together enought to sort their differences out to the point where they can tolerate each others existence – but I can’t really see it happening.

Rabin had a go at it, and look what happened to him…

“well, it’s not going to solve anything by them just hitting lebanon. The cause is just there.”

So where do they hit you idiot? Just let the terrorists do what they want when they want? How do they react?

Wanker

aa,

Obviously you are a fool which bonfire and others have pointed out however you keep on with the same rubbish over and over. Are you just anti-Israel? You don’t seem to concerned with the the loss of life south of Lebanon.

It isn’t all that complicated but you seem to have a problen with keeping both eyes open. Terrorists kidnap 2 soldiers from a well maintained and discaplined military and then demand 1000 prisoners to be released without expecting a reaction – were they serious?

Terrorists hide in the population and the population know it – 60 minutes last weekend showed there were people who were proud to have them there and supported their actions. If these people are killed it’s just too bad. They knew it was likely to happen but they put themselves in harms was to protect what everybody else knows are terrorists.

As much as I would have liked to see less casualties amongst the general population (on both sides) I think Israel got it right. The terrorists should be scared to take this kind of action again in the future.

well, it’s not going to solve anything by them just hitting lebanon. The cause is just there. If anything it’s going to make it bigger, iran will then give them better weapson, syria will give them more soldiers.

Bravo, aa. Yeah – Israel invading Iran and Syria would solve the whole problem. That would put those mean ol’ A-rabs in thier place.

It would also, almost certainly plunge the whole middle east into war. It would probably cost tens or hundreds of thousands of lives to boot.

I’m sure there are hawkish voices in Israel advocating engaging Syria and Iran directly, but voices of sanity will realise that the best they can do is fight grubby proxy conflicts on their border with Lebanon.

australia recognises hizbollah as a terrorist organisation primarily because it commits acts of terror.

the other reasons you list have no basis in fact.

it doesnt matter what percentage recognises something. we live in australia, which does recognise hizbollah as terrorists.

you are an apologist aa.

as long as israel is harmed or eradicated, thats fine with you.

next!

“Why doesn’t Israel go to the source of the problem?” It’s too scarred of getting a flogging.

the only reason australia calls them terrorist is cause the US does. The only reason the US does is cause israel does. All up, they don’t even make 5% of the worlds population that says hezbollah are terrorist.

Lebanon doesn’t fund them, doesn’t supply them with weapons, doesn’t train them. Why doesn’t israel go to the source of the problem? Why don’t they stop iran (which gives hezbollah nearly $100mil per year alone). Or syria (which supplies them with weapson and training).

aa, unlike you I don’t pretend to have available to me the information that Israels military planners do.

I also don’t have violent murderers raining rockets on my family and promising to murder us all.

So I find myself unable to pass judgment.

I do think that even if we did hamstring Israel to the point the jihadis could flood over the border and drive the jews into the sea it wouldn’t be the end of it. They’d move onto the next place where sharia is not observed.

Do I think Israel can do things better? Probably. But I think they’re trying their best.

aa says: ‘It’s funny that only a couple of countries call hezbollah terrorist, but how many dozen countries doesn’t even say israel exist.’

only a few minor countries like say the US, UK, Australia etc.

as we are in oz, i think we can safely argue that hezbollah are terrorists.

weve danced around this maypole already aa.

and in regards to israel ‘existing’, you are aware that even the PLO under rthe auspices of the 93 oslo agreement recognise the right of israel to exist.

perhaps that inconvenient fact is not highlighted on the islamofascist websites you and your fellow travellers visit for ‘news’.

aa says: ‘By the same rules, people like bonfire are supporting israel so hezbollah have the same right to retaliate here.’

cuckoo cuckoo

crazier than a coconut

aa says: ‘let me get this right, everyone here is saying that israel has every right to do what they did, and they didn’t go overboard.’

if you had an inkling of how war is fought you would know that you engage your enemy with lethal force to kill or maim.

you choose the way in which the battle is fought to inflict the maximum possible damage. reduce his ability to fight back and kill you.

hezbollah choose to hide among the lebanese civilian population. the lebanese govt does nothing to stop that.

israel has chosen its tactics so it can engage the enemy with lethal force.

unpleasant but necessary.

so yes aa, israel has every right to do what they did, and they didn’t go overboard.

im glad you have finally conceded that.

let me get this right, everyone here is saying that israel has every right to do what they did, and they didn’t go overboard.

and why is that aa ?

Guys, don’t feed the troll any more, please.

Let him type his inevitable stunning rebuttal after this post and then fade into the cache.

Watch bonfire now come and call Big Al a hezbollah terrorist now, cause you’re against israel. It’s funny that only a couple of countries call hezbollah terrorist, but how many dozen countries doesn’t even say israel exist.

In a very clinical way, aa is of course right in his last post. To argue against that logic you would have to draw on some form of moral authority – essentially saying “…yes that would be true, except that we are in the right and they are wrong.” Which would allow you to shift the balance against Hezbollah.

I am not supporting hezbollah. Bonfire was quick to say that israel has a right to hit lebanon cause lebanon supports hezbollah. By the same rules, people like bonfire are supporting israel so hezbollah have the same right to retaliate here. Both are wrong. I’ve never supported one side.

ummm aa you just said “…So you have no right to say a word when hezbollah retaliate.”

Hang on, I *thought* you were arguing that israel are terrorist because they are attacking lebanese soil and you don’t support hezbollah at all.

Why do they need to bring their problems back here ? We are a peace loving country who don’t go out of our way to start wars or kill civilians…

Now you are supporting hezbollah in retaliations against israel because they attack lebanese soil (in an attempt to rid themselves of hezbollah attacking them).

and you wonder why you keep getting roasted ? could it be the inconsistencies in your argument ?

Bonfire is definitely not a one topic blow-in. It is the first topic I’ve been on his side, but that’s it.

aa is a child. And is irritating. I also look forward to its views on other things. Like how Israel was the one who stabbed the guy outside cube and created the voice recognition system for Canberra Cabs.

Well, Bonfire’s been stupid on a wide range of topics, so no, I don’t think he and aa are the same person.

Unless Bonfire’s finally cracked and has developed a lunatic lefty alternate personality, who’s no more congenial than his usual one…

no aa, its people like you who bring the problems from your homeland to a new world.

i wouldnt die in a ditch for any country except oz.

im prepared to debate the merits of a nation defending itself from terrorists.

my position is that fighting terrorists is a dirty job, i think i said if you shovel shit long enough you start to smell like it.

you choose to continue arguing the ‘israel is just as bad’ line, which is arrant crap.

keep pitching, i’ll keep batting.

next!

Assalamu ‘Alaikum, aa. Or should I say, “Allāhu Akbar!”. I’m not sure which you represent.

i’d rather be a softhead than a dickhead like you. You’re basically saying it’s fine what they’re doing. So you have no right to say a word when hezbollah retaliate. And it’s cause of people like you that causes them to bring the problems back here.

aa – you asked why, i responded. you dont like the answer!

what a surprise.

you then dissemble, saying ‘By your logic, some of them use sydney airport, or china’s airport, why don’t they blow them up too!’

which is not my logic at all, its your softheaded logic.

next!

That is bully tactics. They’re too scared to get rid of the cause, so they hit hezbollah themselves. The personell arive usually by crossing the border via syria. By your logic, some of them use sydney airport, or china’s airport, why don’t they blow them up too!

i am me, not aa, look heres my id.

i like how lurkergal is on my side.

makes me feel all warm and stuff.

im also looking forward to aa’s considered views on act health, public housing, the raiders, action, etc etc.

JB I stand by my original observation – that it seemed strange to have a politician accusing an academic of living in an ivory tower – It’s others that have plumbed the depths of nonsense to bring about the current situation.

On the bright side the “ads by Goooogle” thingy has popped up with an invitation to sign up with http://www.jlove.com a Jewish dating site – this looks promising! I dare say it could be worth getting my hands on a yarmulke and a couple of bottles of kosher wine…

aa: I would, but I would prefer to tell you to fuck off, you one-topic blow in.

Anyway, I asked nicely. Said please and everything! I can’t help it, your small and one track mindedness is profoundling irritating. You have never learnt the art of debate, have you?

Now run along, child, run along.

Yes, i believe this is the all time record for any story.

I blame Big Al for this steaming pile of drivel.

Simto, when you say one-topic loony – are you suggesting that Bonfire and aa are in fact the same person?

Is 245 posts a record for posts in a thread with a one-topic loony?

Is 245 a record for posts in a thread with a one-topic loony?

aa i know you skim over things you disagree with, so i’ll say it again:

“this prevents resupply of arms and also personnel by air. it prevents ‘foreign’ jihadists from flying in and increasing the numbers of enemy that need to be eliminated.”

note the word personnel ?

aa says: ‘israel is just a simple bully’

yes, it deserves to have hizbollah rocketing its civilian population every day from a neighbouring state and has no right to defend itself.

next!

LG, if you don’t like what we’re saying, don’t read it! Plenty of other threads here. What’s wrong with what Im saying about getting rid of the source of the problem? Or did i point out that israel is just a simple bully and is too scared to take on someone that will hit back. Oh, and that someone IS the cause of their problem.

message to aa:

Fuck off please.

Thankyou

LG

snahon, I’ve not pointed fingers and said israel is completely wrong. What I’ve been saying all a long is israel is just as bad as hezbollah.

bonfire, show me one bit of evidence (appart from israel saying so) that shows beirut airport was used to resupply of arms. The hezbollah are mostly driven into lebanon. If you’re using them flying into the country, why didn’t israel blow up their source, syria and iran? Wanna know why, cause they’re scared. They’re using bully tactics on a weaker country. Why not get rid of the source (iran and syria). Killing them in lebanon isn’t going to stop the problem. It’s like a weed in your garden, trimming it isn’t going to stop it from growing back, but ripping it out from the root will!

aa you are an apologist for terrorists.

you duck and weave away from any evidence or proof – which you constantly demand and then ignore.

you constantly try to equate a soveriegn state dfefending itself to somehow being a terrorist state.

you seem to have no other interest as far as i can tell.

you claim to be anti-violence in lebanon, but the israelis seem to be the main focus of your anger.

you make bizarre claims which when examined are often wrong and usually lies. you then attack with another wild fabrication.

you wanted to know why an airport woudl be a target – so i obliged with some prima facie reasons.

which you have ignored by a common softhead tactic – feigned outrage – to divert reader attention on to something else. in this instance a fabricated quote.

next!

aa wants to the point the finger at israel as completely wrong without applying any line of thought that might suggest there are valid reasons for their actions.

No one has said that israel are perfect but pretty much everyone has said there is validitiy in their actions. aa just wants to ignore lebanon’s contribution (through action/inaction it doesn’t matter) in this mess and take the simplistic view that israel are wrong because a very sad side-effect of all this is that lebanese cilivians are getting killed.

I think we all agree peace is by far better but hezbollah won’t stop, lebanon won’t get rid of hezbollah and obviously israel can’t be expected to just keep taking it on the chin.

so aa, you can keep being a one issue whinger or you can step up, take a more wholistic view of the problem and then start applying some reasonable commentry or are you going to continue along the line you are ?

bonfire, you’re an idiot. Please show me one place that I said “hzbollah are justified in murdering civilians”.

why i would ‘blow up’ an airport – by bonfire

a host state is home to a terrorist organisation. this organisation continually fires unguided missiles on civilian targets.

the organisation is sponsored by a foreign power.

the foreign power supplies weapons, training and personnel.

if you want to weaken the enemy (the terrorist) remove his ability for resupply. destroy roads and bridges, blockade ports, dump a few bombs on airport runways.

this prevents resupply of arms and also personnel by air. it prevents ‘foreign’ jihadists from flying in and increasing the numbers of enemy that need to be eliminated.

does this answer your oft asked question aa ?

careful thumper, you might fall for aa’s carefully and powerfully constructed argument that hzbollah are justified in murdering civilians because to quote aa ‘israel is also acting like a bunch of terrorist?’.

of course defending a sovereign state against terrorism is just wrong.

so you agreeing thumper that israel is also acting like a bunch of terrorist?

i’ve never said im on hezbollah’s side. I hope they distroy them all, what I don’t like is what israel has done to innocent people through out lebanon. That’s been my argument.

Hezbollah blow up innocent israeli’s, israel blows up innocent lebanoese. How is it that hezbollah are terrorist but israel isn’t! Look at munich. The innocent athletes get killed, what does israel do? They kill 200 refuges in camps in lebanon and syria. How is that not an act of terrorism.

well, if you look at the map, beirut it OUT OF THE WAY for them to deliver weapson for the hezbollah in the south. The only thing they accomplished with the airport was to stop people from being able to escape. Why didn’t they stop hezbollah’s sponsors? Why didn’t they just bomb syria and iran?

It’s lucky for us that, in aa, we have a military genius surpassing those dullards employed by the Israeli’s.

It’s just a shame he doesn’t realise the importance of transport and communications when moving large quantities of weapons, and the people trained to operate and maintain them, to the places where they can be of most use.

how is that different than being in a building with friends and a bomb blows it up?

You are still to tell me what the airport had to do with hezbollah? No weapons where there. Or what the power plant in beirut has to do with hezbollah, nothing to do with them there either.

With the NZ example, i wasn’t talking about their strength, I was using them as an example. What israel has done is prevent any lebanese from being able to escape. No matter how many leaflets you drop off, if you can’t escape how’s it going to help.

NZ does have offensive weapons – they’ve got Helen Clark!

The NZDF could only get to Canberra if the ADF offered to help bring them across the Tasman, and then do all the fighting for them too!

The biggest threat NZ poses to Australia is by overwhelming the welfare system here.

aa its a little harder to figure out where concealed weapons are, especially when hezbollah site them near hospitals un posts etc, as one of your links pointed out.

it is a little easier to be precise with your attacks when you walk onto a bus of civilians with a bomb strapped to your chest.

woops,

Can you honestly say that israel are acting in a terrorist like fashion based on hezbollah’s code of conduct ?

aa,

To repeat myself,

Your own sources highlighted by bonfire suggest that hezbollah are effectively using civilians as cover, I can’t recall you acknowledging that – which I would think is a key piece of information when determining if israel are acting in a terrorist-like fashion.

By virtue of what hezbollah are doing I would suggest that israel are not acting in a terrorist like fashion.

What are your thoughts on these actions by hezbollah and how they relate to israels conduct ?

Can you honestly say that israel are acting in a terrorist like fashion hezbollah’s code of conduct ?

Show me one place that says lebanon supports hezbollah? The point I was raising with the US supporting with intel was that israel know exactly where the weapons are, so why blow up places that clearly weren’t weapon depo’s?

hehe you guys are such bullies

aa: Posting another post immediately after each post does not show you know more. I just shows how disorganised your mind is.

You are boring, you are annoying, you are repeating yourself. You are in the wrong place if you expect people to take you seriously, as you sound like a child.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

DO YOU?????

DO YOU??????

No, didn’t think so.

interesting that the only people charged with terrorism related offences here recently are those that have dragged their twisted islamofascist ideology into our society.

a bit like say hezbollahs ideology ?

im advised that most of the info used to arrest these suspects has come from the australian islamic community.

also aa, new zealand has no fast jets anymore. the mung bean smoking hippies over there believe that have no need for offensive weapons.

which im sure will really cause their troopies to be confident of recieving air support if they have the need to attack anyone.

fiji has more military capability than nz (check janes).

so in this scenario you propose which is just whacky shit, liek everything else you vomit out, i’d say it is unlikely to militarily succeed or occur.

in any case, i dont think the aust govt woudl willingly allow a terrorist org to use australia as a base for its actions.

instead of bizarre what-ifs why dont you focus on the real.

lebanon allows hezbollah to use it as a base for attacks on a neighbouring sovereign state.

this brings about attacks on any infrastructure which hezbollah require to further their operations.

roads, airports, power plants – all legitimate military targets.

why are you blaming israel for lebanon hosting hezbollah ?

aa says “Why didn’t israel support lebanon to disarm them?”

by bombing the fuck out of any hezbollah target it can find, id say israel is helping lebanon.

aa says: “The US even helped israel by supplying them with intel on the supply of rockets.”

good on them! thats what friends are for.

how is this a bad thing ?

yesterday you were whinging about indiscriminate bombing.

which do you prefer ?

next!

Of course i would not want NZ razing canberra but I sure as hell won’t hang around if they were going to. The difference between what is currently happening and your arguement is that NZ would only do that after an organisation had been hiding out in canberra for years and years plotting and engaging in attacks against NZ to which canberra hasn’t/couldn’t/wouldn’t get rid of.

Again you will not acknowledge that the reason israel aren’t acting nice is because hezbollah are have pissed them off for too long and the lebanese haven’t had the will or strength to rid themselves of hezbollah.

Like I said, i don’t know the history of the region but based on your assertion that “Lebanon doesn’t want hezbollah either.” I don’t exactly hear on the news something to the effect of “Lebanon wants world support to rid itself of hezbollah and get israel to stop”

If there was a terrorist organisation in australia (which I hope there isn’t) about the size of hezbollah (someone up the thread said there were capable of reaching 10,000), the australian government would strugle to stop them. There’s only about 25,000 – 30,000 full time officers in our defence. Stopping an organisation that big is a bit of a struggle.

how was the powerplant in beruit helping them resupply rockets? How was the airport? All rockets supplied to them was from syria, they don’t even go to beirut!

The US even helped israel by supplying them with intel on the supply of rockets. I have no problem with israel blowing up the trucks with rockets in them, I have a problem with them blowing up the 3 runways in the airport, or the powerplant. They had no reason to blow them up appart from crippling the country. Why did they even stop humanitarian boats with food coming into the country? Did they think UNICEF or the UN was also supplying hezbollah with rockets? They dropped the leaflets over south lebanon telling people to leave after they blew up the bridges so the people couldn’t leave. Did they think the people living there are supermen and can fly or something.

another thing, if NZ comes over canberra and said they want to kill a some terrorist and leaflet drop for every one to leave, does that mean they have the right to come blow up ACTEW, our airport, every bridge in town?

If that infrastructure was being used to resupply the terrorists dropping rockets on Auckland (which it isn’t), and if they could hit Canberra (which they can’t), and if we couldn’t stop them (which we can) then I’d say we had it coming to us.

another thing, if NZ comes over canberra and said they want to kill a some terrorist and leaflet drop for every one to leave, does that mean they have the right to come blow up ACTEW, our airport, every bridge in town?

snahon, I never said hezbollah are acting nice. What Ive been saying all along is israel isn’t either. Lebanon doesn’t want hezbollah either. Why didn’t israel support lebanon to disarm them? There was in north lebanon another militia called the lebanese forces. They were never declared terrorist, however with the support of the UN, they disarmed and joined forces with the lebanese army. They could have done a similar thing with the hezbollah, and if they didn’t agree to it, the lebanese army (with the support of the UN and/or israel) would more than likely have gone up against hezbollah.

aa,

You keep saying that you don’t agree with hezbollah and you keep pointing out that israeli’s are terrorist by virtue of their behaviour.

I can see the point that you are trying make in that on face value israel ‘appear’ to be targetting civilians and lebanese infrastructure (hence your reasons for calling them terrorists ???) . What you conveniently like to ignore that because hezbollah like to hide within civilian perimiters, the IDF are left in a position whereby when they locate hezbollah related activity and attack – civilians will invariably be affected.

The IDF sends leaflets detailing their intentions to hit an area in an effort to allow civilians leave safely. It may not be perfect but they at least try to give notice.

Irrespective of your view on whether hezbollah are terrorists, they are a self defined organisation that likes to attack others and also invariably kill civillians – What would you have israel do to stop hezbollah attacking them ? Go and ask lebanon nicely “Please stop hezbollah attacking us” ? clearly lebanon won’t/can’t do this.

Your own sources highlighted by bonfire suggest that hezbollah are effectively using civilians as cover, I can’t recall you acknowledging that – which I would think is a key piece of information when determining if israel are acting in a terrorist-like fashion.

I don’t know a great deal about the history of the conflict going on here and I’m not saying either side are innocent or perfect but you certainly come across as someone who wants to cry indignation against israel without acknowledging that the hezbollah aren’t exactly playing nicely either.

Now since WE live in Australia – lets all sit round the barbee with our VB and sanga and ponder why the world can be just so f*cked up at times….

north south who gives a fuck.

the fact terrorists have free reign and can dictate terms to the lebanese govt on what they will and wont do with their illegal weapons which they use to terrorise and murder civilians, is reprehensible.

i dont think stanhope would be ‘negotiating’ with me to keep my rocket launchers south of the molongolo river.

i suspect some black clad gents with mp5k’s would be entering my bedroom at 5am to ask me some questions.

I don’t know where you got your info from toad, but didn’t the cease-fire agreement say they only have to disarm south of the litani river?

We’ll be able to see Round 2 soon.

Despite the simpering handwringing exhortations of the UN, hezbollah refuses to disarm and the Lebanese government agrees with them.

The French are now getting worried about what the rules of engagement will be when they send in troops – and nobody, including the UN, knows when and where all the troops will come from.

Predictably, Israel is having second thoughts about how this cease-fire is meant to work and, as soon as the islamofascists start re-stocking the bunkers with supplies from Iran and Syria and start lobbing rockets over the border, don’t expect them to go in half cocked next time.

Then aa will be able to tell us all again about those terrible Israelites.

If there is a huge scary muthafucka dobermann living down the street, and I am a Jack Russell, and I continually bark and nip at that big scary dobermann, eventually he is going to have had enough and tear me a new asshole.
Regardless of their other behaviours, Israel has been putting up with Hezabollah terrorist behaviour for a while, and they’ve had enough. Should they be bombing the living shit out of the place? Probably not. But what else would you have them do? Keep putting up with Hezbollah? Maybe the Lebanese need to start ridding their country of Hezbollah themselves!

it’s true. If you wanted hezbollah, you hit them. That why the lebanese army didn’t do anything. But why crimple the rest of the country. If by your figures, there’s 10,000, why should 5mil people suffer.

I would say that you’re living with double standards. If the actions that other people do classify them at terrorist, why is it fine for you to do the same and not be?

aa.

“They started this war, but think of it this way, if i come and pick a fight with you, does that give you the right to hit me, my sister, my brother, my neighbour?”

This remoids me of a Monty Python sketch.

This is Brian This is Brians Mother and Father This is brians house This is Brians street

I Laughed and Laughed. It was probably a military de-sensitisation training procedure.

how am i making a greater fool. You’re the ones defending israel. I have said it from my first message, i don’t agree with hezbollah, but israel has gone overboard. Thats when everyone started jumping down my throat, with the “how dare i say that, im anti-semite!

aa.

The problem here is that Hezbollah hide in with the community. Israel want the rocket attacks to stop. The range is something like 100km, so Israel have to raze the ground between their border and the limit of the rockets.

To defend Israel, they drop leaflets every day, saying leave now.

If I was sitting in my suburban back yard, and the bombs were landing, and I was not involved in the terrorist org, and I recieved a letter drop saying that the army would drop in tomorrow,

I WOULD LEAVE…

In reality, Israel, being a manufactured country (Thanks to the Germans), is *very* good ad hitting extremely hard.

In any case, I have to agree with the views that Israel are *not* terrorists. We tend to use dictionary definitions in my environment, not emotive.

aa says ” If israel only hit hezbollah targets, I would be on israel’s side, but the didn’t, they hit innocent people.”

using a soure aa regards as credible i find:

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08/11/lebano13969.htm

“Israeli forces have consistently launched artillery and air attacks with limited or dubious military gain but excessive civilian cost. Hezbollah has fired at least 3,500 rockets into northern Israel, most of which have been deliberately directed at civilian areas. Human Rights Watch has also collected evidence of Hezbollah storing weapons in or near civilian homes and fighters placing rocket launchers within populated areas or near U.N. observers, which are additional violations of international humanitarian law.”

becasue aa is as thick as two fucking planks i’ll just repeat that last bit:

“Human Rights Watch has also collected evidence of Hezbollah storing weapons in or near civilian homes and fighters placing rocket launchers within populated areas or near U.N. observers, which are additional violations of international humanitarian law.”

hezbollah are hurting the lebanese people by drawing israeli fire into their midst.

thsi of course is what they want – so they create martyrs and softheads liek aa saying israel are just as bad.

cause – effect.

next!

its tough… I understand where aa is coming from.

but maybe the only way israel can stop the hezo’s behaving as such is to be so heavy handed, as immoral as it is. but then two wrongs don’t make a right. Two wrongs generally end up multiplying.

I still don’t wonder whether the israelies prime motivator is water.

im not saying hezbollah are innocent. They started this war, but think of it this way, if i come and pick a fight with you, does that give you the right to hit me, my sister, my brother, my neighbour?

yes they have, but israel is acting just as bad as hezbollah, that’s what i’ve been trying to say this whole time.

Thumper, so you’re saying israel havent’ gone overboard with waht they have done? They have every right to blow up airports, bridges and power plants? If thats the case, you have no right to say a world if they start doing that to israel, or worse back here in australia.

OK, so we have some common ground here. The civilians who get in the road of the Hezbollah and Israeli forces, be they Lebanese or Israeli civilians, are in for a shitty time.
This is true. Also true is the assertion that both sides have behaved poorly in the past. I still think that Hezbollah brought this on themselves, too.

To me a terrorist organisation is one that terrorises innocent people. It uses it’s force to damage their enemy (mostly economically).

Look at september 11, there could have been better targets for them to hit (political targets, etc), but they hit the world trade centres. Look at the US economy after that.

Israel is doing the same thing, cripling lebanon. Lebanon is a country that relies mostly on tourism. For the next few years, people aren’t going to be going there anymore. The airport is closed, ports are destroyed, no electricity, no transport. That to me is an act of terrorism.

If israel only hit hezbollah targets, I would be on israel’s side, but the didn’t, they hit innocent people.

Read this, the price of food, medical supplies and gasoline rose by 500%. Tell me this isn’t going to hurt the 5mil people living in lebanon. http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/20/life.under.fire.ap/index.html

Hezbollah’s entire army is 2000 people.

aa said previously: “Look up what defines a terrorist, and you will see that israel is one too.”

A terrorist is a person who uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

self defence:

the defence of ones person or interests, especially through the use of physical force, which is permitted in certain cases as an answer to a charge of violent crime.

israel is entitled to defend itself against terrorists.

hezbollah is a terrorist organisation.

traditionally, you take your war to your enemy. you engage and destroy him with overpowering lethal force.

that is how war is fought.

it does not make israel terrorists.

softheads create definitions then use these self created definitions to ‘prove’ their ‘case’.

i use the oxford english dictionary for my definitions.

next!

There’s one simple part of being a terrorist that you’ve ignored, AA, that makes a clear difference between Hezbollah and Israel.

A terrorist organisation, to my way of thinking, operates outside the legal authority of the country they exist in (or, often with the express legal disapproval of the country they live in). They are not part of the running of their country, they are unidentifiable, non-obvious and remarkably hard to find.

Which means, for instance, bombing the shit out of Israel is remarkably easy – you look on the map and there it is. Bombing the shit out of Hezbollah is a lot harder – they don’t advertise their location nearly as easily.

thankyou James-T-Kirk! You’re finally understanding what Im saying. Hezbollah should be removed, but israel shouldn’t have done what they did. What does john smith living in north lebanon who’s probably never seen hezbollah in his life got to do with the fight? Basically for the next couple of years now, he will live without electricity, without proper transport cause all the bridges have been taken out, without an airport. Can’t even go to the beach for a swim cause the water is polluted.

no, I said by the same standards that say hezbollah are terrorist, you can also say that israel are terrorist. Look up what defines a terrorist, and you will see that israel is one too.

AA, I am not saying that Israel is right. I disagree entirely with what they are doing, and am extremely sadened by what is occuring.

It looks to me like Hezbollah is probably the antagonist, and are operating from a position that is well outside what we, in the western world, would consider reasonable.

Sorry if I misinterpreted you and believed that you were indicating that Hezbollah is in the right.

But, I have to admit that the comment about 2 parties not liking each other caught me by surprise.

Unfortunately, we simply don’t have a framework to understand the conflict against. Culturally, we really don’t give two hoots what our grandparents did to each other, but in the Middle East, it appears as though conflicts can perpetuate for 2000 years. Ultimately, given what VY supplied, it makes sense for one of the parties to hit until the other stops… Works in the school yard. Unfortunately, the sticks these guys use kill people who are not involved.

But, consider, In any previous case, where a govmit was ‘doing the wrong thing’ during a war, were they being backed by the people? (Take the Japaneese for example).

bonfire, you said “people – watch aa weave and dodge truth and fact.” Who’s the one dodging truch and fact? Have i said once i agree with hezbollah? Just cause I don’t agree with israel doesn’t mean i agree with hezbollah! I’ve said it several times in this post, I DON’T AGREE WITH HEZBOLLAH, but I also don’t agree with israel, and they are using good old fashion bully tactics like in school. We’re bigger and stronger, lets pick on the weak.

I thought we were discussing whether Hezbollah was a terrorist organisation…?

“Remember, you are in Australia, and In Australia, largely we are nice to one another.”. Have I once said hezbollah is being friendly? Im saying both sides are idiot, but everyone here is saying hezbollah are wrong and israel is right.

show me once i’ve said what hezbollah is doing is right? NOT ONCE! Your the one that’s saying israel is right! Im saying both are wrong, but your head is that far up your own ass to see it!

AA – HOLY SHIT –
“isn’t that simply two political parties not liking each other. “

In Australia, we have elections, and a free and open media. We openly deal with our diferences.

God help us if it ever becomes acceptable to blow the crap out of each other, just because you dont like the GST.

I *really* wanted the Sun Ripened Warm Tomato Party during the first ACT Govt Election. I lost, but you don’t see me strapping dynamite to my arse and dying for the cause.

Remember, you are in Australia, and In Australia, largely we are nice to one another.

That is what the focus on the BBQ, and beer, and motorsport during summer is all about.

AARRGGH!

I am not pro-hezbollah, im against them. But Im also against what israel is doing to innocent lebanese. They can blow up all hezbollah for all I care, but when the blow up innocent people, airport, bridges, powerplants so that everyone suffers, that’s what Im against. If you read the whole thing, bonfire is justifying what israel is doing.

Thank you aa – using mao’s tactics i refer you to this source you regard as credible.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08/02/lebano13899.htm

“The initial estimate of 54 persons killed was based on a register of 63 persons who had sought shelter in the basement of the building that was struck, and rescue teams having located nine survivors. It now appears that at least 22 people escaped the basement, and 28 are confirmed dead, according to records from the Lebanese Red Cross and the government hospital in Tyre.”

i refer you to your own words:

“well bonfire, which source did you get your info from about the death? You fail to supply a link or anything, for all I know you simply made that fact up. Cause by what you’re saying, CNN and BBC are wrong, but your source is right!”

aa i got my figures from the source you also use. inconveniently for you, it conflicts with your preferred version of events.

so are human rights watch right or wrong ?

but even better (for me i guess) is that the ACTUAL link you supplied at 1.46PM to PROVE yet again what beasts the IDF are has this in its first paragraph:

“The organization (HRW) also called upon Hizballah to refrain from carrying out indiscriminate attacks on Israeli civilians in Qiryat Shemona and other communities in northern Israel. Since Thursday, the attacks have claimed the lives of two Israeli civilians and at least eight Lebanese civilians.”

youre not helping yourself here.

people – watch aa weave and dodge truth and fact.

next!

Let me also state that no-one here seems to be claiming Israel is completely innocent, simply that Hezbollah has done some pretty shitty things.

aa – not trying to be rude here, but are you able to describe your reasons for being so pro-Hezbollah? As stated earlier, I don’t think anyone participating in this discussion has actually been there during this war. Also, this is Australia, not Lebanon or Israel.

i was simply showing bonfire that the things israel has done has been far worse then that of hezbollah, yet he’s defending israel.

Ok aa, you can use the internet. We get it!

No one is going to read all those links. No one is going to thoroughly read your posts. You are a one issue wonder and a pain in the arse, with it.

here’s also a guys website that visited lebanon, read the bit when he is talking about how israeli army attacked a refugee camp…

http://ww22.tiki.ne.jp/~ikuzo1201/page016.html

or here how they attacked an oil storage unit at a power plant, let me guess, hezbollah was using it to launch rockets? http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=apje8CwcPPSA&refer=home

need i continue with the list of what israel has done?

http://hrw.org/english/docs/1999/06/26/isrlpa925.htm, I like this bit:

‘According to Maj. Gen. Dan Halutz, chief of IDF operations, the government “decided to carry out an attack on Lebanese infrastructure and not only on Hizballah objectives.’

So don’t sit there and say israel is a innocent country, they’re as much trouble makers as hezbollah are!

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/lebanon/Isrlb997.htm, another HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH. Search for israel there, and you’ll get a list of things they’ve done against CIVILLIANS!

well, do you want a list of all the israeli ones? You keep dodging things. Im not saying hezbollah aren’t terrorist, im saying so is israel with the way they’re acting. in 1999, israel bombed a power plant in beirut, do you know the reason? Just happened to fall on the same day the miss europe contestants were flying into lebanon. Nothing on that list about hezbollah!

aa said: “Considering hezbollah have done nothing against any other country, isn’t that simply two political parties not liking each other”

did you even read it you moron ?

let me pluck one line:

“January 1985 Involvement in the murder of two French UNIFIL observers in Beirut.”

hmmm france, un, lebanon – no jews hiding there aa.

it lays out many acts of terror against non us and non israeli citizens, as well as many attacks on israeli and jewish soft non military targets.

explain how it being an israeli published document makes it less credible ?

please.

next!

LurkerGal, by the way your talking, bonfire says it’s true, so it must be true.

barking toad: if you read all those links, they link into very reliable sources.

bonefire, did you notice the link you gave is israeli! Considering hezbollah have done nothing against any other country, isn’t that simply two political parties not liking each other. Simple act of war, not terrorism. WHat has hezbollah done to other countries? I can give you a list far bigger than that of what israel has done to the rest of the middle east.

aa has given links to everything he said. So he MUST be right, because everything you read on the internet is correct.

Case closed. Dump this thread.

i just love the way aa ignores everything you show him to prove him wrong, or that he has in fact lied.

aa said: “What has hezbollah done to be delcared a terrorist organisation? I’ve been searching for it, but can’t find it. “

http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/bu/hizbullah/pb/app4.htm

Major Terrorist Attacks Carried out by Hezbollah’s Overseas Terrorist Apparatus

Date Attack Scenario

March 1983 Kidnapping of the journalist Jeremy Levine (managed to escape).

April 1983 Explosion in the U.S. Embassy in Beirut. 63 embassy employees were killed.

October 1983 Explosion in the U.S. and French multinational force headquarters in Beirut. 240 U.S. Marines and 58 French paratroopers were killed.

November 1983 Explosion in the IDF headquarters in Tyre

December 1983 Explosion in the U.S. Embassy in Kuwait.

September 1984 A car bomb in the U.S. Embassy in Kuwait.

March 1984 Kidnapping, followed by the murder, of head of the CIA station in Beirut, William Buckley.

December 1984 Hijacking of a Kuwaiti passenger aircraft from Dubai to Karachi. During the hijacking two U.S. citizens were murdered.

January 1985 Involvement in the murder of two French UNIFIL observers in Beirut.

April 1985 Explosion in a restaurant in Saragossa, Spain, aimed at U.S. soldiers (carried out with the assistance of Hezbollah’s Overseas Terrorist Apparatus).

May 1985 Kidnapping of Terry Anderson in Lebanon.

June 1985 Hijacking of a TWA passenger jet during its flight from Athens to Rome and landing in Beirut. The passengers were released after prolonged negotiations. During the hijacking, a U.S. passenger was shot dead and his body thrown out of the plane.

September 1985 Kidnapping of Saudi Arabian diplomats.

December 1985 – September 1986 A series of explosions in France.

January 1987 Kidnapping of the Reverend Terry Waite.

June 1987 Kidnapping of the American journalist Charles Glass.

February 1988 Kidnapping of Colonel Higgins from the UN observers force in South Lebanon, followed by his interrogation and murder.

April 1988 Hijacking of the Kuwaiti KU-22 plane during its flight from Bangkok to Kuwait and its eventual landing in Iran.

February 1990 Murder of three Saudi diplomats in Bangkok in retaliation for the death of hundreds of Iranian pilgrims during the Haj [Muslim pilgrimage] in Saudi Arabia in 1987.

March 1992 Explosion in the Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires in revenge for the killing of Hezbollah Secretary General, Abbas Mussawi. 29 civilians were killed and about 250 wounded.

March 1994 An attempt to carry out a terrorist attack against the Israeli Embassy in Thailand. The attack was prevented as the truck loaded with the explosives hit a motorcycle on its way to the attack and the suicide bomber escaped.

July 1994 Terrorist attack in the Jewish community “AMIA” building in Argentina. About 100 civilians were killed and more than 200 wounded.

June 1996 Involvement in the attack on the U.S. army base in Dhahran in Saudi Arabia. 19 men were killed and more than 500 wounded in the attack.

April 1996 Explosion in the Lawrence hotel in Jerusalem, as a result of a “work accident” of a Hezbollah operative Hussein Mikdad, who had penetrated Israel apparently in order to carry out a spectacular attack in a central Israeli city.

October 2000 An Israeli citizen, Elhanan Tannenbaum, was kidnapped abroad and transferred to Lebanon.

January 2001 Jihad Shuman, a Lebanese of British citizenship, was arrested in Jerusalem on his way to carry out a terrorist attack on behalf of Hezbollah.

This doc dates from 2003 and horro of horros is by an israeli think tank, but i think a casual reader might probably conclude that gosh hezbollah is a terrorist organisation.

as for you aa ‘there are none so blind as they that will not see’.

next!

hehe yup

http://www.smh.com.au/news/people/terrorise-this/2006/08/17/1155407930403.html

FAG’s?

Mr_Shab: got the article from a guy on another blog (car related of course) who felt very strongly about his position. I have included it because I thought it might get some interesting responses. Personally I don’t know enough about what’s going on over there at the moment to have an informed opinion. My uninformed opinion is that Hezbollah deserves what it is getting. That said, Israel has a long history of not behaving as well as it could have. Ultimately there will need to be a winner, and, by definition, a loser, for this to be over. The saddest part is the individuals who get caught in the middle and have their lives destroyed. Regardless of the larger picture, their loss seems to me to be the hardest.

aa – citing far left sources like antiwar.com and commondreams doesn’t do your arguement much good in the eyes of people like bonfire.

Also – maybe, just maybe, the guy has a point.

Perhaps if we ditched the Geneva conventions and all other efforts to make war “clean”, people might think a bit harder before going to war to resolve their differences.

getting rid of one terrorist group won’t solve the problem – whilst may have some positive outcomes, the angst is always going to be there.

aa relies on CNN and the BBC for his information, ’nuff said

probably believes robert fisk too

i want hezbollah out of the picture too, but israel is wrong with it’s actions. It’s acting a lot worse than hezbollah, but the world is letting them.

That’s a rather thought-provoking article, VY – where was that written?

Dunno about aa, but I’m happy to see Hezbollah get its “ass handed to it”. Question is, will the removal of Hezbollah make a long term difference, or will groups like Islamic Jihad just step into the power vacuum? Also – how many Lebanese civilians are going to have to die in the process?

I’m sure they’d take simmering tension over complete, but bloody victory any day.

Here’s some more interesting articles….. Worth a read

http://www.zaman.com/?bl=international&alt=&hn=35131

or this one

http://wakeupfromyourslumber.blogspot.com/2006/07/100000-whiners-for-war-crimes.html (i think bonfire is one of those 100,000 people)

Here’s one that shows the oilspills in lebanon was caused by israel http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L27727475.htm

this is an interesting article. Titled “Israeli Justice Minister: IDF Entitled to Kill Everyone in South Lebanon”

Has anyone here actually been involved in the war over there? I mean actually been there and seen both sides? If not, we don’t really know the facts.
Based on what I have seen in the news (which I will admit is probably quite biased), Hezbollah seem to be getting what has been coming to them.

Below is a piece taken from a blog I read occasionally, it provides an interesting perspective. I don’t agree with all of it, but I thought it might add to this discussion. Agree or disagree as you choose.

When I was in the Navy, I once witnessed a bar fight in downtown
Olongapo(Philippines) that still haunts my dreams. The fight was
between a big oafish Marine and a rather soft-spoken, medium sized
Latino sailor from my ship.

Allevening the Marine had been trying to pick a fight with one of us
and had finally set his sights on this diminutive shipmate of mine
figuring him for a safe target. When my friend refused to be
goadedinto a fight the Marine sucker punched him from behind on the side
of the head so hard that blood instantly started to pour from this poor
man’s mutilated ear.

Everyone present was horrified and was prepared to absolutely
murder this Marine, but my shipmate quickly turned on him and began
to single-handedly back him towards a corner with a series of stinging
jabs and upper cuts that gave more than a hint to a youth spent boxing
in a small gym in the Bronx.

Each punch opened a cut on the Marine’s startled face and by the tim
e he had been backed completely into the corner he was blubbering
for someone to stop the fight. He invoked his split lips and chipped
teeth as reasons to stop the fight. He begged us to stop the fight
because he could barely see through the river of blood that was pouring
out of his split and swollen brows.

Nobody moved. Not one person. The only sound in the bar was the
sickening staccato sound of this sailor’s lightning fast fists making
contact with new areas of the Marine’s head. The only sound I have
heard since that was remotely similar was from the first Rocky film when
Sylvester Stallone was punching sides of beef in the meat locker.
Finally the Marine’s pleading turned to screams a high, almost womanly
shriek. And still the punches continued relentlessly. Several people
in the bar took a few tentative steps as though they wanted to try to
break it up at that point, but hands reached out from the crowd and held
them tight. I’m not ashamed to say that mine were two of the hands that
held someone back.

You see, in between each blow the sailor had begun chanting a
soft cadence: “Say [punch] you [punch] give [punch] up [punch]…say
[punch] you [punch]were[punch] wrong [punch]”.

He had been repeating it to the Marine almost from the start but
we only became aware of it when the typical barroom cheers had died
down and we began to be sickened by the sight and sound of the
carnage. This Marine stood there shrieking in the corner of the bar
trying futilely to block the carefully timed punches that were cutting
his head to tatters . . . rightdown to the skull in places. But he
refused to say that he gave up or that he was wrong.

Even in the delirium of his beating he believed in his heart that
someone would stop the fight before he had to admit defeat. I’m sure
this strategy had served him well in the past and had allowed him to
continue on his career as a barroom bully.

Finally, in a wail of agony the Marine shrieked “I give up”,and we
gently backed the sailor away from him.

I’m sure you can guess why I have shared this story today.

I’m not particularly proud to have been witness to such a
bloody spectacle, and the sound of that Marine’s woman-like shrieks will
haunt me to my grave. But I learned something that evening that Israel
had better learn for itself if it is to finally be rid of at least one
of its tormentors:

This is one time an Arab aggressor must be allowed to be beaten
so badly that every civilized nation will stand in horror, wanting
desperately to step in and stop the carnage. . . butknowing that the
fight will only truly be over when one side gives up and finally admits
defeat.

Just as every person who had ever rescued that bully from
admitting defeat helped create the cowardly brute I saw that evening in
the bar, every well-intentioned power that has ever stepped in and
negotiated a ceasefire for an Arab aggressor has helped create the
monsters we see around us today.

President Lahoudof Lebanon, a big Hezbollah supporter and a close
ally of Syria, has been shrieking non-stop to the UN Security Council
for the past two days to get them to force Israelinto a cease fire.

Clearly he has been reading his autographed copy of ‘Military
Success for Dummies Arab Despots’ by the late GamalAbdelNasser of Egypt
.. Ever since Nasseraccidentally discovered the trick in ’56,
every subsequent Arab leader has stuck to his tried and true formula
for military success:

(1) Instigate a war.

(2) Once the war is well underway and you are in the process of
having your ass handed to you. . . geta few world powers to force
your western opponent into a cease fire.

(3) Whatever you do, don’t surrender or submit to any terms
dictated by your enemy. That would ruin everything! Allyou have to do
is wait it out and eventually the world will become sickened at what is
being done to your soldiers and civilian population. . . andwill force
a truce.

(4) Once a truce has been called you can resume your intransigence
(which probably caused the conflict in the first place), and even
declare victory as your opponent leaves the field of battle.

This tactic has never failed. Not once. In fact it worked so will
for the Egyptians in 1973, that to this day they celebrate the Yom
Kippur War – a crushing defeat at the hands of Israel – as a military
victory! No kidding … it’s a national holiday over there!

President Lahoudhas already begun to shriek like a school girl to
the UN Security Council to “Stop the violence and arrange a cease-fire,
and then after that we’ll be ready to discuss all matters.”

Uh huh. Forgive me if I find that a tad hard to swallow. He
allowed Hezbollah to take over his country. He allowed the regular
Lebanese army to provide radar targeting data for the Hezbollah missile
that struck the Israeli destroyer. He has turned a blind eye while
Iranian and Syrian weapons, advisers and money have poured into his
country. And now that his country is in ruins he wants to call it a
draw.

As much as it may sicken the world to stand by and watch it
happen, strong hands need to hold back the weak-hearted and let the
fight continue until one side finally admits unambiguous defeat.

well that’s what youre doing here. You’re listening to what they want you to listen to. What has hezbollah done to be delcared a terrorist organisation? I’ve been searching for it, but can’t find it. And what has israel done that is different for it not to be delcared as one.

Can anyone answer this for me, if the leader of hezbollah had commited war crimes and genocide, what would the US have done to hezbollah, yet the whole world turned a blind eye when the prime minister of israel did.

Gosh, where would we be if people where allowed to make decisions…. And think for ourselves. Thew we might be responsible for our own actions, and might have to put up with the fact that we have our own body image problem because we listen to others too much, or go to the mall too much.

Roll on Big Brother. I prefer to listen to what I am suposed to listen to. Not what I choose to listen to.,

Not until the govmit says so…

the only reason australia declaired hezbollah as terrorist is cause the US did. They have been pettitioning to change it, but johnny said no, without giving a reason. They are terrorist, that’s not the argument. But according to the definition of what a terrorist organisation is, israel is one too.

Not to cause a little fire here, but hasn’t the Australian Government declaired Hezbollah a terrorist organisation ™? I don’t seem to remember the Australian Government declairing Israel to be a terrorise org…

Seems to me like we live in Australia, and as such, we use the Australian definitions. If people don’t like the Australian definitions, perhaps they might consider living somewhere else, or at the least pettitioning for change through the existing political process?

There should be more focus on being loyal to Australia, not the US, or lebanon, or anywhere else.

remember, there’s always 3 sides to every story, your side, my side, and the truth. All Im asking for is evidence. I’ve supplied mine, where’s yours!

+1

remember, there’s always 3 sides to every story, your side, my side, and the truth. All Im asking for is evidence. I’ve supplied mine, where’s yours!

well, before you sit there and say im ranting, show me proof. Thats all I want. People writing down things without evidence to proove themselves isn’t proof. You guys are quick to call me a lair, but your not showimg me proof. I am giving evidence to back up everything im saying, yet you’re not!

You’re just a ranting dickhead, aa.

No further comment.

what about sharon or the innocent people killed, or the UN base bombed by israel? He said the hezbollah were using it as a sheild, but where’s the proof. Im providing links from very good sources to back up what Im saying, he’s not.

show me proof that is was an iranian missile. They said it was, but how do they know. And as if israel would admit it was them that shot it down.

The Egyptian ship?

i have given links to everything i’ve stated. Like how sharon is wanted for war crimes, or the amount of people that died in the building, while bonfire just says they’re lies but doesnt’ show were he got his facts from.

so he’s one of those hardheaded people who thinks he knows it all and doesn’t have to provide proof for what he’s saying. typical.

Erm, something happened there to cut the post off.

To restate:

bonfire, the simple fact is Im providing proof for what Im saying, you’re not.

aa: Given the number of basic factual errors in your rant, the only proof you’ve supplied is that you are prepared to enter a debate armed only with opinions.

bonfire, the simple fact is Im providing proof for what Im saying, you’re not.

aa… I wouldn’t bother once bonfire has determined you are a softhead, generally it is pretty hard to free yourself of that stigma in his eyes… which means that any proof supplied becomes softhead proof.

bonfire, the simple fact is Im providing proof for what Im saying, you’re not.

aa i know you would rather read islamofascist propaganda instead of doing your own googling, but im not wasting my time providing you with more ‘evidence’ because you ignore it or tell me its jewish/us based.

youre ranting and dissembling.

and theres no need to call anyone a politician, thats just rude.

also big al, i think you will find that in a war that jordan lost to israel, jerusalem was captured.

I agree simto. They expect lebanon to be about to stop hezbollah, but at the same time lebanon is trying to rebuild itself after nearly 30 years of civil war. It’s army doesn’t have enough power to put a stop to hezbollah. Hezzbollah gets money and weapons from syria and iran. The lebanese army doesn’t get anything. Syria was forced to pull out last year, and in my opinion they probably promoted the war as an excuse to move back in to say that lebanon needs them and can’t survive without them.

It is possible to support peace in the middle east without supporting Hezbollah. Really. But to do that, you’ve got to be looking for a functional, healthy Lebanese government. Which nobody’s really heading towards.

The main problem is that the other Arab nations would rather let Lebanon be their substitute for their Israel issues. And Israel doesn’t particularly want to fight with all the other Arab nations either, so it’s happy to have Lebanon to pick at. So Lebanon gets sqeezed in the middle. Which kinda sucks for the Lebanese.

I kinda thought you would, Thumper. But I’m a big fan of pointing out the self-evident.

People carrying Hezbollah flags and applause for dead Israelis at “peace” marches in Canberra certainly tarnished their motives in the minds of many.

But any objective look at what ideology Hezbollah (and its sugar daddy, Iran) stands for makes it a very odd bedfellow for supposed peace activists.

Anyone’s “unusual” views on life can be excused, however, as long as they stand up to the “US/Zionist” cabal, eh?

Thumper – saying that we went into WWII to protect the Jews from the gaschambers is like saying the US civil war was fought over the issue of slavery – neither is true. They’re both cases

WWII started as an attempt to restrict Hitler’s expansionism (which explains why England declared war when Poland was invaded). It expanded afterwards into other areas, but it didn’t start out that way.

And yes, while ending WWII did stop the gaschambers, that was never a key goal – and there were, as far as I know, no specific campaigns or actions to stop the gas chambers beyond by the action of winning the war.

There is, of course, a debate on how much the Allies actually knew, or believed, about the gaschambers, so it’s not clear whether this wasn’t policy because nobody knew it was happening or whether they were deliberately ignored. Certainly, though, the Allies knew about the dehuminisation of the Jews and didn’t do a great deal about it in the pre-war years. Hence why there’s a viable argument that the state of Israel was created to assuage guilt over inaction about the Jews.

didn’t he change his name to “Muhammad Dawood” (i think the spelling is daoud, not 100%)

Thumper, if they went into your house and split it into 2 sections and said this is our now, you’re telling me you’ll just sit back and go “ok, let me go say hello to my new neighbours”?

well bonfire, which source did you get your info from about the death? You fail to supply a link or anything, for all I know you simply made that fact up. Cause by what you’re saying, CNN and BBC are wrong, but your source is right!

You’re all still not reading what Im saying, I DON”T AGREE WITH HIZBOLLAH, but how is blowing up a country just out of civil war an act of deffence against terror? To you Hizbollah are terrorist, but to the rest of the world their not!

Name once that I’ve said anything to say jews are doing this, it’s Israel. Bonfire keeps jumping around changing things i’ve said. Like i said earlier, you must be a politician.

It was Thumpers last post – “Never let facts get in the way of blind ideology.” That got me thinking – there’s a shit load of pretty tough language here about how Hezbollah are apparently terrorists – well no shit Batman – of course they must be terrorists if only for the fact that our government and a bunch of other governments who find it just as expeditious as ours to seek the Jewish vote have declared them to be – does that really make them terrorists? Well, only kind of.

I guess that it’s so easy to forget that the capital of Palestine is Jerusalem – well it was until the Palestinians were forcefully evicted so that the west could try and make up for doing fuck all while Hitler sent 4.5 million Jews to the gas chambers.

I had to laugh at this gem from aa: “d, so you’re telling me they didn’t sink an egyption ship that poluted the water? I think you were in lebanon and you’ve gone blind too.

Well, considering the Egyptian ship was sunk by a Iranian-supplied missile, fired by Hezbollah, yes, I would be saying that.

I reckon you’re still being too harsh by half on aa, Bonfire. aa is guilty of not checking his sources, using only a single point of reference before stating a “fact” and regurgitating what he finds in the online leftwing press. A grossly naieve approach, but not a wilfully dissembling approach.

I will accept your semantic arguement that “lying and dissembling” is not a tautology. Touche.

28 is as bad as 54, but yet another plank in aa’s flimsy arguments is peeled away.

aa wrote:
“Let me go through your points and prove that you’re the one lying.

a, that number is disputed? Its was 60 people, and 37 of them were children! Here’s the CNN article about it!”

a simple googling on ‘gana death’ shows:

“An Israeli airstrike on a three-storey building in the southern Lebanese village of Qana killed 28 Lebanese civilians, and not 54 or more as initially believed, Human Rights Watch said Wednesday.”

next!

I think you will find i referred to Israel as a democracy and that it had significant arab population and arab representation in its parliament.

aa thinks i must be jewish because i robustly defend its right to self defence, and expose his lies.

he makes several anti-us and anti-israel remarks.

including his jewish/us media remark.

dissembling is defined as to hide or disguise ones true motives or feelings, which is a tactic used by liars but not necessarily ‘to lie’. for example we might talk about all the deaths caused by israel, and not mention that its acting in self defence against a terrorist organisation committed to eradicating it.

the term ‘proportional response’ is a dissembling tactic.

aa is trying to deceive. he want you to think that israel is a terrorist state and that woudl then bring forth his “TADA” moment in which he would then claim that it is then ok for terrorists to attack israel. Gee – thats what hes doing. Im fooled so easily.

Even when proved wrong, caught out lying or deceiving he doesnt admit it.

recumbant tautology perhaps??

Tautology and adding redundant words with identical meanings to the same sentance.

recumbent bicycles

okay now that I have resolved this world issue anyone want me to get started on something else??

Depending on whose side you are looking from EVERYONE is a terrorist. but it is the failure of the parties involved in recognising this that makes the middle east such a hot spot!

Mr Evil is right. What i’ve been saying from the begining, hezbollah are terrorist, but to me what israel has done is also wrong, a form of terrorism

Bonfire – just cause I like to be contrary, I’d like to run to aa’s defence on the following.

1. aa is not being anti-semetic; just a bit of a pillock. You are guilty of equating Israel and Judaism, which is similar (though not quite as dire) as equating terrorism and Islam.

2. aa is not lying. Being awfully fast and loose with the “facts” he quotes, but not lying. I would argue that lying implies some kind of intent to decieve. aa just doesn’t have his facts straight before spouting crap.

3. Isn’t “lying and dissembling” a tautology?

I ran across some legionnaires in a transvestite bar in Papeete many years ago.

It was the only place serving beer on a sunday.

Papeete, what a shithole.

If the French send the Foreign Legion in then Hezbollah should be afraid; very afraid.

But it’s great the French are leading it … you can always rely on them to be militarily steadfast.

yup 100% its possibly one of the worst peace keeping assignments one could think of (they are all bad though). I think word was that it was 15,000 of them..

AD, let’s hope the poor buggers are well armed and given a mandate not to put up with any shit!

Mr Evil – I believe there was an annoncement that the UN is sending in peace keepers….its good to see they are nice and on the ball as usual

Okay, I’ll summarise what I think:

A. Israel has the right to defend it’s citizens. The IDF has proven itself to be capable of pin-point strikes against it’s enemies without undue civilian casualties.

B. I don’t think Israel really needed to use the heavy handed approach that they have displayed in Lebanon. Target Hezbollah – not innocent civilians, the Red Cross and UN Observers.

C. Hezbollah are terrorists. They may try to dress themselves up as some sort of “liberation army”, but when all is said and done, they are terrorists. They constantly target civilians in their campaign to drive Israel into the sea.

D. Lebanon is a young democracy, and given time the Lebanese Govt may be prepared to take on Hezbollah and drive them out of southern Lebanon. There are many Hezbollah supporters in the Lebanese military, and pushing them to fight against Hezbollah may only start another civil war.

E. The US has tried to help Lebanon – 200+ dead US Marines is testament to that. The US military ended up becoming the meat-in-the-sandwich when they arrived in Beirut in 1982, as opposing factions turned their attention on the US troops.

F. Iran and Syria should butt out of Lebanese-Israeli relations.

G. The UN is weak and corrupt (in case no one had noticed!).

H. Send Peacekeepers into southern Lebanon, but for Christ’s sake give them authority to use whatever force necessary to keep Hezbollah (or anyone else!) in line.

I found this while googling on ‘peace marches’ yesterday, Its a slideshow of ‘peace’ banners.

http://andrewlanderyou.blogspot.com/2006_07_30_andrewlanderyou_archive.html

Topped and tailed …

bonfire, let me guess, you’re jewish? … You’re the one that keeps bringing religion into it.

I think aa has been raiding crazy chester’s medicine cabinet…..

but I don’t hold peoples religion against them on a personal basis. so am i truely anti-semitic nobably prot.

I am anti-semitic purely because the jews started the fucking rot all those hundreds and hundreds of years ago.

Don’t you love the far Left’s renewed embrace of anti-Semitism … it’s just so liberating to be able to blame the Jews again.

“Australia DOESN’T classify Hezbollah at terrorist, only AMERICA and ISTRAEL. So how is the two soldiers that were taken classified as “kidnapped by terrorist” and not simple prisioners of war?”

http://www.nationalsecurity.gov.au/agd/www/nationalsecurity.nsf/AllDocs/7986D1536C0FFD5FCA256FCD001BE859?OpenDocument

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2006/s1704339.htm

“Calls to remove Hezbollah from terrorist list rejected by Australian Government

PM – Wednesday, 2 August , 2006 00:00:00
Reporter: Lyn Bell
PAUL LOCKYER: The Prime Minister, John Howard, says he’ll reject a request to have Hezbollah taken off Australia’s list of banned terrorist groups.

The request is being made by the head of the Federal Government’s Muslim Advisory Group, Dr Ameer Ali, who says he’ll write to the Prime Minister, urging that Hezbollah be recognised as a legitimate part of Lebanese politics.”

Perhaps we’ll see legitimate political acts like firing rockets into civilian areas adopted by the sun ripened tomato party at the next assembly election.

Islamofascism should be eliminated.

AA – can you defend terrorism as legitimate?

im not jewish, im not anti-muslim. ive lived among muslims.

what I am is an atheist of the highest order.

but i recognise anti-semitism when i see it.

and i know im not going to change your mind, because you ignore fact and reality.

even a point by point assembly of your lies and bizarre claims, which i then disproved doesnt make you realise that you are a liar and an anti-semite.

responding to you is just fun.

let me guess, you ride a recumbent bike dont you ?

aa, you’re ranting and you’re wrong.

To quote from the Attorney-General’s media release of 4 August:

The Australian Government stands firm on its decision to list Hizballah’s External Security Organisation as a terrorist organisation

You’re not doing your cause much good by accusing people of being jewish for disagreeing with you.

You can read a number of releases on the Government’s position re Hizballah/Hezbollah.

bonfire, let me guess, you’re jewish?

Australia DOESN’T classify Hezbollah at terrorist, only AMERICA and ISTRAEL. So how is the two soldiers that were taken classified as “kidnapped by terrorist” and not simple prisioners of war?

Im not anti-semite, I have jewish friends, I just don’t agree with what israel is doing. You’re trying to bring religion into this now, and it has nothing to do with religion.

The current prime minister of israel has only been in power for a few months. What about the years it was lead by a guy wanted for war crimes? Why didn’t anyone do anything then.

And if you beleive that america when into iraq the second time cause they had the WMD, you’re a fool. Their reason has changed once they went in, now it’s cause their leader is wanted for war crimes. Do you know the reason why iraq took over kuwait?

The bombing in israel in the past has been by palestinians, not hezbollah.

Let me go through your points and prove that you’re the one lying.

a, that number is disputed? Its was 60 people, and 37 of them were children! Here’s the CNN article about it!

b, show me one place it says it was used as a sheild. The only people who said it was ISRAEL. Of course they’re going to say that, what did you expect them to do? Sit back and go we’re a bunch of idiots who don’t know our targets?

c, “More dissembling. What is your proof ? You cant just state a rumour as fact.” Read any paper in europe, in asia, any paper that that isn’t owned by an american or a jew.

d, so you’re telling me they didn’t sink an egyption ship that poluted the water? I think you were in lebanon and you’ve gone blind too.

e, yes, every truck that’s moving near the borders has been blown up. Even one’s carrying fruit and vegetables.

f, beirut isn’t occupied by hezbollah, their leader lives there. They have a political party too. Doesn’t every political party in australia have offices and houses in canberra?

g, once again, say anything about israel, and the person is a “anti-Semite”. For god’s sake, stop bringing religion into it, he killed and masicared innocent people.

h, if you look at the death rated, they killed more israeli soldiers than civilians. While if you look at the israeli’s killings, they did more civilians.

i, shop me where is shows that The EU lists leading Hezbollah staff as ‘terrorists’.

j, against an act of terror?. People really love this word. Lebanon is democratic too. The sun doesn’t shine out of israel ass you know. How is capturing 2 soldiers as POW’s an act of terror.

k, they pulled out when things got messy. They went in stured trouble, and when push came to shove, they let high and dry.

l, “A terrorist is a person who uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.”. What did israel do to palistinian leader arrifat? he was a prisinor in his own office. How isn’t that an act of terror.

m, Here, read this article. That shows that he is a CRIMINAL!

You keep saying things like anti-Semite, when it’s not. You’re the one that keeps bringing religion into it.

Mark Steyn’s recent comments are worth a look while we throw links around.

Welcome to life in the Dar Al’Harb. You can get used to it or you can Submit.

Wierd. I just thought it was a bit rich having a politician accuse an academic of living in an ivory tower…

aa you nake another set of assumptions about me based on what you want to believe.

without going into detail, i have a lot of experience in the types of issues you claim i have no real experience of.

ive also done my best in a previous life to prevent these situations occurring.

you on the other hand are a loon.

“Why hasn’t israel been taken over like they did to iraq? “

Which invasion ? The one following Iraqs occupation of Kuwait ? Or the one following the UN resolution regarding WMD’s?

Id suggest that unless its escaped my attention, no UN resolution supporting an invasion of Israel has occurred. I know Israel has faced invasion from its Arab neighbours on several occasions, in which the invading armies were largely destroyed.

Is this what you are referring to ? I’m not sure who ‘they’ is ?

“Same situation, their leader was wanted for war crimes. “

Ive googled extensively and I cant find any reference to Ehud Olmert being indicted for war crimes. I guess its not really the same situation. I mean, where are the UN resolutions which support the invasion if Israel fails to provide evidence of dismantling of its WMD program.

If I follow your logic AA, your suggesting Iran should also be invaded because it too is developing WMD and doesn’t want international oversight ? I think you are trying to apply a standard for invasion.

“What defines a terrorist, “

A terrorist is a person who uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

“and isn’t EVERYTHING that israel is doing making them look like terrorists? “

Im not sure how Israel trying to free soldiers kidnapped by terrorists meets that definition you asked for. I guess when terrorists fire missiles at you its only fair that you respond and try and remove that threat.

And yes its unfortunate that civilians are casualties, but this is a war that is in a densely populated area, and in which Hezbollah use the civilian population as shields and martyrs to their cause.

And im not sure about ‘everything’ either.

Terrorists and neighbouring states have demonstrated hostile intentions for oh 60 years, I’d be fairly defensive and robust in my response if that was the case.

“Create my own facts? Name one that I’ve made up!”

This is rich. Hang on everyone.

For a start you told us that Ehud Olmert was a war criminal.

Let me list the rest of your dissembling:

A “What would blowing a building up and killing 50 people (of which 37 were children) got to do with hezbollah? “

That number is in dispute. The building was colocated with a Hezbollah target.

B “Or blowing up the UN base killing 4 UN got to do with hezbollah. “

See my previous response, proving that Hezbollah were using it as a shield.

C “Has anyone read how there’s all of a sudden an increase in blindness in south lebanon cause of the bombs israel is using? “

More dissembling. What is your proof ? You cant just state a rumour as fact.

D “Or how the water is poluted? “

See my last.

E “or how every truck is being blown up, even ones carrying food?”

Every truck ? Really ? fercrissake.

F “Hezbollah are only in south lebanon, not beruit.”

Not true. Several square km’s of Beirut are occupied by Hezbollah. Google it.

G ‘Ariel Sharon’s history is intertwined with war crimes and crimes against humanity.’

There are no indictments in the Hague. Loony left anti-Semite groups calling him a war-criminal don’t make it a fact. Sure he has a distasteful past, but look at the war he’s been fighting. Shovel shit and you smell like it.

H ‘Prior to the 2 soldiers being kidnapped (and is it kidnapped, or are the POW’s?), what has hezbollah done to israel?’

Continual attacks on civilians via murder bombers in cafes and buses in Israel.

Constant Katyusha attacks on civilian targets.

Seriously – you believe that Hezbollah have clean hands ? This is too easy.

I “Also if they are terrorist, why is israel and the US the ONLY countries to classify them as terrorist?”

Not true. US, UK, Australia, Canada, Netherlands and Israel. The EU lists leading Hezbollah staff as ‘terrorists’.

J ‘What they are doing is NO DIFFERENT to what hezbollah are doing.’

Israel is a democratic state defending itself against acts of terror.

K “US promised support throughout the 80s to lebanon, but when they needed them, they sat back and did NOTHING.”

Yes, all those dead marines were just there to get a tan.

L “a terrorist is anyone who says no to America”

You see, you asked me earlier ‘“What defines a terrorist,” and I responded with ‘A terrorist is a person who uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.’, when really you had a definition all along so I guess I wasn’t sure how to argue with this hidden definition.

So when NZ told the US to not visit with nuclear vessels, that they suddenly became a terrorist ?

Im really confused now.

M “why had the world turned a blind eye to all israel’s (and US) war crimes?”

Which ones ? I know that My Lai was investigated, and Abu Grahib has been investigated and numerous other distasteful events. So I dont know how you can argue that the world is turning a blind eye there. Numerous investigations into Israeli war crimes have also occurred. What do you want here ? People to agree that nothing is done when a genuine war crime is committed ? The evidence doesn’t support you here. I would say youre dissembling again. Clearly when a genuine war crime has occurred, an investigation has occurred.

In this response, which you ‘demanded’ I have demonstrated AA that you are a dissembler and a liar. I have point by point assembled your lies and disproved them. i have pointed to evidence of your distortions, yet you ignore it.

You prevaricate, distort and accuse. You answer no direct questions. You are an anti-semite, clearly anti-us and not very bright to boot.

So fuck off and ‘march for peace’ with your other anti-semite loony left fellow travellers.

“Why hasn’t israel been taken over like they did to iraq? “
Which invasion ? The one following Iraqs occupation of Kuwait ? Or the one following the UN resolution regarding WMD’s?
Id suggest that unless its escaped my attention, no UN resolution supporting an invasion of Israel has occurred. I know Israel has faced invasion from its Arab neighbours on several occasions, in which the invading armies were largely destroyed.
Is this what you are referring to ? I’m not sure who ‘they’ is ?
“Same situation, their leader was wanted for war crimes. “
Ive googled extensively and I cant find any reference to Ehud Olmert being indicted for war crimes. I guess its not really the same situation. I mean, where are the UN resolutions which support the invasion if Israel fails to provide evidence of dismantling of its WMD program.
If I follow your logic AA, your suggesting Iran should also be invaded because it too is developing WMD and doesn’t want international oversight ? I think you are trying to apply a standard for invasion.
“What defines a terrorist, “
A terrorist is a person who uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.
“and isn’t EVERYTHING that israel is doing making them look like terrorists? “
Im not sure how Israel trying to free soldiers kidnapped by terrorists meets that definition you asked for. I guess when terrorists fire missiles at you its only fair that you respond and try and remove that threat.
And yes its unfortunate that civilians are casualties, but this is a war that is in a densely populated area, and in which Hezbollah use the civilian population as shields and martyrs to their cause.
And im not sure about ‘everything’ either. Terrorists and neighbouring states have demonstrated hostile intentions for oh 60 years, I’d be fairly defensive and robust in my response if that was the case.
“Create my own facts? Name one that I’ve made up!”
This is rich.
For a start you told us that Ehud Olmert was a war criminal.
Let me list the rest of your dissembling:
A “What would blowing a building up and killing 50 people (of which 37 were children) got to do with hezbollah? “
That number is in dispute. The building was colocated with a Hezbollah target.
B “Or blowing up the UN base killing 4 UN got to do with hezbollah. “
See my previous response, proving that Hezbollah were using it as a shield.
C “Has anyone read how there’s all of a sudden an increase in blindness in south lebanon cause of the bombs israel is using? “
More dissembling. What is your proof ? You cant just state a rumour as fact.
D “Or how the water is poluted? “
See my last.
E “or how every truck is being blown up, even ones carrying food?”
Every truck ? Really ? fercrissake.
F “Hezbollah are only in south lebanon, not beruit.”
Not true. Several square km’s of Beirut are occupied by Hezbollah. Google it.
G ‘Ariel Sharon’s history is intertwined with war crimes and crimes against humanity.’
There are no indictments in the Hague. Loony left anti-Semite groups calling him a war-criminal don’t make it a fact. Sure he has a distasteful past, but look at the war he’s been fighting. Shovel shit and you smell like it.
H ‘Prior to the 2 soldiers being kidnapped (and is it kidnapped, or are the POW’s?), what has hezbollah done to israel?’
Continual attacks on civilians via murder bombers in cafes and buses in Israel.
Constant Katyusha attacks on civilian targets.
Seriously – you believe that Hezbollah have clean hands ? This is too easy.
I “Also if they are terrorist, why is israel and the US the ONLY countries to classify them as terrorist?”
Not true. US, UK, Australia, Canada, Netherlands and Israel. The EU lists leading Hezbollah staff as ‘terrorists’.
J ‘What they are doing is NO DIFFERENT to what hezbollah are doing.’
Israel is a democratic state defending itself against acts of terror.
K “US promised support throughout the 80s to lebanon, but when they needed them, they sat back and did NOTHING.”
Yes, all those dead marines were just there to get a tan.
L “a terrorist is anyone who says no to America”
You see, you asked me earlier ‘“What defines a terrorist,” and I responded with ‘A terrorist is a person who uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.’, when really you had a definition all along so I guess I wasn’t sure how to argue with this hidden definition. So when NZ told the US to not visit with nuclear vessels, that they suddenly became a terrorist ? Im really confused now.
M “why had the world turned a blind eye to all israel’s (and US) war crimes?”
Which ones ? I know that My Lai was investigated, and Abu Grahib has been investigated and numerous other distasteful events. So I dont know how you can argue that the world is turning a blind eye there. Numerous investigations into Israeli war crimes have also occurred. What do you want here ? People to agree that nothing is done when a genuine war crime is committed ? The evidence doesn’t support you here. I would say youre dissembling again. Clearly when a genuine war crime has occurred, an investigation has occurred.

In this resaponse, which you ‘demanded’ I have demonstrated AA that you are a dissembler and a liar. I have point by point assembled your lies and disproved them. i have pointed to evidence of your distortions, yet you ignore it.

You prevaricate, distort and accuse. You answer no direct questions. You are an anti-semite, clearly anti-us and not very bright to boot.
So fuck off and ‘march for peace’ with your other anti-semite loony left fellow travellers.

Gold! Bonfire’s the root cause of terror … hehehe

I like the assumption that I haven’t lived in a war?

Wrong, dickhead.

i love linking to? When did i link to it? God some people here think they know it all. bonfire keeps calling me softhead, when he’s the hardheaded fool who can’t prove anything he’s saying and by not answering questions. It’s cause of people like him that terrorist exist. Stop justifying terror with terror. Instead of blowing things up and acting all innocent, sit back and try to solve the problem. Killing people doesn’t slove the problem, and you guys are justifying everything israel is doing. You’ve obviously never lived in a war, and don’t know what it’s like to be walking in the street then a bomb blows up a building next to you, or the person you’re walking with gets shot. So don’t justify israel’s actions. Don’t sit there and go it’s fine.

aa, probably best to go back to the indymedia sites you love linking to.

You’ll find everyone agrees with you there.

I was actually taking the piss out of myself, despite the fact that I believe it ;P

And I also believe that the most famous terrorist was a jew… and jesus was his name-O

it’s true, religion is. But look at the war, it’s between jews and muslims, yet christians are the ones that are dying. I don’t think many people actually realise that lebanon is 50% christian. The president of lebanon has to be christian. So even though it is a religious war, other religions are being draged into this for no reason.

also you haven’t supplied ANY evidence bonfire. Your one of those people who thinks they know it all and are too good to back up what they are saying.

I purely blame the US for everything because it is fun.

All seriousness aside Religion is the sole thing we can blame here.

let me guess bonfire, you’re a politician? You’re good at talking around things but never answering a question. You’re good at saying someone is wrong, but can’t say why.

me have a sick twisted mind? im not saying it doesn’t matter when jews get blown up, but you’re saying it doesn’t matter when innocent lebanese get blown up! You still haven’t even answered one question bonfire, you’re just good at pretending to know what you’re talking about by trying to make fun of other people. I’ve only asked 3 questions, yet you haven’t been able to answer one.

Simple fact is this: What israel is doing is worse than what hezbollah have ever done, yet hozbollah are classified as terrorist, but israel isn’t.

no matter what evidence you provide the softhead will ignore it.

he will then ask you to answer a loaded question.

your answer will be disagreed with, usually b asking another loaded question.

its ok to justify terrorism isnt it aa

when jews get blown up that doesnt matter.

what a sick twisted little mind you have.

thats no excuse! If my grandfather was killed by your grandfather, that that give me the right to blow up your village?

Because the Jews were persecuted in WW2!

did they think they’d put marines there and the enemy is just going to stop shooting? There’s always casualties in war. Off course soldiers are going to die. What i was saying is the lebanese thought they had backing, so they took on an enemy more powerful than them, but when they needed the US, they weren’t there.

Read this article, it talks about how “Israel set war plan more than a year ago”. There’s still a simple thing I want answered, why had the world turned a blind eye to all israel’s (and US) war crimes?

Actually aa, the US did try to help Lebanon in the early 1980s, it’s just that they weren’t too happy to assist after over 200 of their Marines were killed in a bomb attack on their barracks in Beirut.

Bonfire,

“the question that needs to be asked is why did the un allow hezbollah to use them as a shields?”

That statement assumes that the UN are capable of doing anything. Long ago, we had a league of nations, who were almost as useless as the UN.

2 weeks of chit chat before they decide on the wording of a resolution.

3 seconds to issue the ‘fire’ order on a missile.

I know which is more effective.

The Isralies should be commended for defending their people.

Hezbollah are a bunch of criminals who hide behind face shields, andchildren… who should get ^T%$#^%#@%.

Did anyone ever watch the interview when johnny was in the US with bush? Bush kept on calling johnny “john” while johnny kept on calling him “Mr Bush”.

blame someone else? You never answered one of the questions asked? Why hasn’t israel been taken over like they did to iraq? Same situation, their leader was wanted for war crimes. What defines a terrorist, and isn’t EVERYTHING that israel is doing making them look like terrorists? Create my own facts? Name one that I’ve made up! They’re both as bad as each other, so you have no right to go poor israel, cause they are as much terrorist as the hezbollah are!

That’s why Johnny has a brown tongue.

ignore evidence

use your own definitions

create your own fact, then refer to it as proof.

deflect questions, never answer the question asked.

blame someone else.

ignore logic.

aa – youre a winner on all counts.

i cant debate with someone who dissembles. all i can do is remain silent and let you show yourself as the fool you are with your own words.

a terrorist is anyone who says no to america. The rest of the worlds opinion doesn’t count though, it’s only america’s that does.

Have a read of the anti terrorism act passed recently, and explain to me how Arthur and Marthur down the street with chemistry books in their house, and chemicals in their garden shed are not terrorists.

The world has gone mad ™ and what we are seeing is an end result of it.

That one’s easy –

A terrorist is whatever Bush and Howard say they are.

oh, go to what defines a terrorist? and tell me everything on that list isn’t what israel are doing.

I agree with Mr Evil, and if lebanon does do anything about it, the rest of the world will just sit back and do nothing. US promised support throughout the 80s to lebanon, but when they needed them, they sat back and did NOTHING. As I’ve said a few times (and people are ignoring) Im not supporting hezbollah, as they are terrorist, but don’t just sit back and go poor israel, what they are (and have done) is far worse than everything hezbollah have done.

As ripley said:

Nuke the site from orbit – Its the only way to be sure.

“why are you applying fairness standards to israel yet allowing terrorists to wiggle out.”

Because Israel is claiming that they are nothing like the terrorists, but a lot of what they’ve done over the few weeks has been as bad as, if not worse than, Hezbollah’s actions.

The Lebanese Govt is in a very difficult position as there are factions in the Lebanese military that support Hezbollah’s actions, and there is very real concern that another civil war will break out along religious lines if moves are made against Hezbollah.

bonfire, im not applying fairness standards to israel, what im saying is that if you’re going to call hezbollah terrorist, then you should also call israel that. What they are doing is NO DIFFERENT to what hezbollah are doing. Terrorising civilians and killing innocent kids.

isn’t what israel is doing terror? Prior to the 2 soldiers being kidnapped (and is it kidnapped, or are the POW’s?), what has hezbollah done to israel? Also if they are terrorist, why is israel and the US the ONLY countries to classify them as terrorist? Why hasn’t the UN? Ask yourself the question, what defines a terrorist? Then look at everything israel and america have done (and still are doing) to the rest of the world.

i think bombing a position being used by your enemy is pretty precise.

the question that needs to be asked is why did the un allow hezbollah to use them as a shields?

much as hezbollah use the lebanese people.

cowards who engage in terror.

why are you applying fairness standards to israel yet allowing terrorists to wiggle out.

do we disarm israel so its fair ? arrant crap.

engage your enemy and destroy him.

thats what they teach at recruit school after they teach you to fold sheets.

it is such a grey area…. having an opinion either way you are facist or a headsoft… thats why I choose to despise both…

Bonfire, I agree with you that Hezbollah haven’t been playing by the “rules of warfare”, but why is it okay for Israel to shell a UN Post and kill four UN Observers and claim it’s all because Hezbollah were using the UN base as a shield?

The Israelis are famous for surgical strikes, so why did they indiscriminately shell the crap out of an area which they knew was full of UN observers? You can take out the bad guys without having to kill everyone around them: even the US can do that – sometimes!

Hezbollah are shits, but so are the Israeli Govt/Military!

If Israel’s response to Hezbollah in Lebanon is the new benchmark for anti-terror ops, then maybe the US should nuke all of Iraq to get rid of the terrorists there!

Here’s what’s happened in simple terms, if I steal your wallet, does that give you the right to burn down my house?

aa what do you mean by moved in ? jews christians and arabs had existed side by side fairly peacefully for at least a millennia, barring odd flights of madness from one camp or another, in that area.

decisions made by the major powers during and post ww1 influenced events later.

post ww2 the un agreed to partition, and to the creation of an israeli and palestinian state.

displaced peopel from europe went all over the world seeking a better life, including australia. do you see australians claiming they were invaded by displaced europeans ?

arab neighbour states said ‘no’ and tried to crush the israeli state.

there was a war.

they lost.

what do you want now, 60 years later ? for the israelis to go… where ?

its a furphy that arabs were driven from israel. most chose to move to escape the fighting, much as they have moved from southern lebanon to northern lebanon to escape the fighting occurring now. it was a choice they made – and probably not a good one, since they were not allowed back in to israel.

but lets not refight a battle thats already occurred.

israel is a democracy, the only functioning democracy in the middle east, a secular state with about 15% arab citizens and arab representation in its parliament. i dont see too many jews in any of the other arab governments.

i love the way antisemites can see every action israel takes to defend itself as proof of its aggression.

knocking out a power plant denies your enemy the pleasantries of life. if lebanon allows hezbollah to take over and occupy several kms sqaure of beirut then it can expect this to occur.

i love your last para – yes its all israels fault. kidnapped its own soldiers, arranged for hezbollah to fire rockets at its civilians.

im not going to debate this again aa because the problem with arguing with softheads like you, who dissemble and lie, ignoring evidence i provided at your request proving your claims as false, is that they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

how is a power plant an avenues of entry for the missiles?

Lebanon is a small country surrounded by people who hate each other. They are too scared to fight each other, so they pay little thugs in lebanon to do the dirty work for them. Why doesn’t israel hit syria or iran? Cause they too scared of the result.

Instead of killing the bottom of the food chain, go straight to the top, and the rest will crumble. Hit syria, hit iran.

israel is a democracy? Was it democratic how they moved in and took over the country? Where was is prior to WW2?

Bill Clinton once explained it well when he said that the people in power on all sides (israel, lebanon, palestine, syria, etc) were born hating each other. It’s very difficult for there to be peace there. But with what israel has done now, it’s probably set the peace process back a few decades.

i meant proxy wars, although poxy is also apt…

i dont think you can equate a maniac who uses wmd against his own population to a person who has been an actor in a long running war in which distasteful tactics have been used by both sides.

israel is a democracy. if they dont liek who runs the show, he gets voted out. its been occurring since 1948. when did saddam hold his last election ? oh the one in which he rcvd 99.9% of the votes…

lebanon is the architect of its own misfortune. it lets syria, iran and israel use it as a stage to fight poxy wars. israel uses the maronites, syria the muslims, iran funds hezbollah.

lebanon needs to rid itelf of foreign interference. hezbollah is no friend of lebanon. islamofascism rejects democracy and many of the freedoms the average urban beirut citizen enjoys.

israel has no interest in attacking lebanon – it attacks military targets. why does it attack infrastructure – because airports roads and ports are avenues of entry for the missiles the terrorists rain down upon it.

no real winners here.

here’s an interesting read…

“A Nuremberg chief prosecutor says there is a case for trying Bush for the ‘supreme crime against humanity, an illegal war of aggression against a sovereign nation.’ “

Thanks Simto. best change my theory to ‘that anyone with the surname Hughes is a wanker’.

Well considering the US have messed around with the area for years.. you have to admit that they have had a major influence in the region and not always positive. In some way or another they have played everyone against each other in the region.

i not saying hezbollah are innocent. What Im saying is israel isn’t innocent either. Lebanon has been trying to stop hezbollah for year. What most people don’t realise is that they were in a civil war for nearly 30 years, so it’s not that easy.

Like I said, america was quick to jump against iraq’s leader for war crimes, why didn’t it against israels?

Um, Santa, the link you’ve got points to a comedian called Steve Hughes, who’s in Edinburgh this year.

The guy on the Glass House is Dave Hughes, who’s staying in Australia.

But, hey, never let the facts get in the way of a good ABC bash.

Thanks for playing…

aa you are ranting.

if the lebanese people want peace, why dont they stop hezbollah bringing a war to it ?

hezbollah are terrorists. they murder civilians.

why ? because the civilians are jewish.

justify that.

Im not justifying what hezbollah are doing, but just saying people should be all “poor people in haifa”, cause what israel is doing is worse. No comment about the lebonese people, or the airport bombing? Or stopping food going to the 1,000,000 people who live in south lebanon?

As for Sharon, yes he is in a coma, but what i was trying to say is, when a leader of a country IS a criminal and SHOULD be charged with war crimes, why didn’t america do what they did with iraq, and go in and take over the country cause it’s leader is a criminal?

The little wanker from the glass house has waded into the deabte in typical fashion…

well, here’s yet another one. So please don’t just call hezbollah terrorist, cause israel sure look that way to me.

hezbollah fires on UN HQ

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/06/mideast.main/index.html

scroll right to the bottom under ‘other developments’

“Hezbollah mortars struck the U.N. headquarters at Henniye, Lebanon, wounding three Chinese U.N. peacekeepers, said UNIFIL spokesman Milos Strugar.”

Hezbollah was using UN post as ‘shield’

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=37278180-a261-421d-84a9-7f94d5fc6d50

“Israeli strikes were aimed at Hezbollah targets near the post, said Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie.

“What that means is, in plain English, ‘We’ve got Hezbollah fighters running around in our positions, taking our positions here and then using us for shields and then engaging the (Israeli Defence Forces),” he said.

That would mean Hezbollah was purposely setting up near the UN post, he added. It’s a tactic Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie, who was the first UN commander in Sarajevo during the Bosnia civil war, said he’s seen in past international missions: Aside from UN posts, fighters would set up near hospitals, mosques and orphanages.”

We could play this game all day.

You supply the distortion, i’ll supply the truth.

Ariel Sharon ? The guy in a coma for months ? Oh yes, he is behind this campaign to stop israelis being mortared. no doubt about it.

Im not sure what you expect – there has been a running war of attrition since the early 40’s. people on both sides have committed warcrimes.

What do you do when your enemy uses terror ? You take the war to him. Thats why guided missiles fly in the bedroom window of terrorists. thats why assasination squads hunt down murderes who shoot civilians in say the olympic village.

this proportional response whine is a canard to stop israel defending itself appropriately.

what is a proportional response to stop terrorists firing rockets from civilian areas and kidnapping soldiers from israel and taking them into lebanon ?

a slap on the wrist ?

rules change when you pick up a gun.

dont be silly LG, its more fun for the rest of us for him to keep clagging up this forum. He’ll attract the attention of the real weirdos soon….

aa: Here’s an idea. Get all your wacky ideas together and put them in ONE POST.

here’s another one. Like i said, im not supporting hezbollah, but israeli’s aren’t sweet innocent angels like the media makes them out to be.

here’s a link to one of the cases against him.

Also not sure if you are aware, but Ariel Sharon’s history is intertwined with war crimes and crimes against humanity. This is common knowledge, things he’s done to people in 1996. Israel isn’t innocent either.

don’t know where you got your fact bonfire, but please show me where it says that hezbollah used it as cover or where it says that hezbollah mortared the UN HQ.

Im not anti-israeli, I would retaliate too if they kidnapped 2 soldiers, Im just saying they’ve gone over the top. Has anyone heard if the 2 soldiers are still alive or not? Hezbollah are criminals, but what does lebanon got to do with it. What does blowing up the runways at the airport got to do with them? Hezbollah are only in south lebanon, not beruit.

Have been taking lessons in Stanhopianism, Bonfire? Israel may be a democracy, but it was also a country created by Europe, in the Middle East, about 60 years ago. I would be kind of pissed off to if this occured in a country that considered to be sovreign, regardless of which form of government is being used.

the un post you claim in your anti-israel rant was being used by hezbollah as cover to stage attacks.

hezbollah also mortared the UN HQ in Lebanon, but that isnt nearly as interesting is it.

these slums have been funded by the un since 1949.

why dont other arab states assist ? oh they do, by providing arms. very helpful.

the host states refuse to recognise them as citizens. ask jordan why – the plo attempted a coup.

ahh moral equivalence.

ok to murder bus full of israelis.
wrong to shoot insurgents.

its not an easy issue to resolve but painting one side as always morally right does not promote peace.

originally there was to be an israeli and palestinian state. surrounding arab states convinced they could defeat israel attempted to crush it at its inception. the fallout from that failed military tactic is what drives todays bloodshed.

islamofascism is a relatively new phenomenon, dating from the late 1980’s, not 1949.

It’s funny that all the media here are so “poor israel”. What about the innocent people getting killed? What did blowing up a power plant in beruit got to do with hezbollah? What would blowing a building up and killing 50 people (of which 37 were children) got to do with hezbollah? Or blowing up the UN base killing 4 UN got to do with hezbollah. I don’t agree with hezbollah, and I don’t like them, but I think israel has gone too far with what they’ve done. Has anyone read any papers that aren’t US or Australian? Has anyone read how there’s all of a sudden an increase in blindness in south lebanon cause of the bombs israel is using? Or how the water is poluted? or how every truck is being blown up, even ones carrying food?

Bonfire, I guess you also subscibe to the Israeli military theory that every stone throwing kid shot by the IDF could have been holding a handgrenade?

But then I guess if Israel shoot a few more children it stops them from growing up to be an angry suicide bomber one day.

Of course, being stuck in a slum your whole life and treated like shit by the Israelis wouldn’t be the reason that terrorist groups like Hezbollah and Hamas have no trouble at all in finding volunteers to become “martyrs”?

u missed that on nik.

All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

Hezbollah use the civilian population as a shield hoping the israelis wont attack. when they do, they use that attack on civilians as propaganda.

also, a terrorist not holding a gun at the time he is killed is a ‘civilian’ to hezbollah and its fellow travellers.

hezbollah are known to use red cross and red crescent signs to conceal their actions and disguise their movements.

proportion ?

you crush your enemy. engage him and destroy him. if he uses a revolver, you bring an slr.

im sure if hezbollah ceased firing rockets at civilian targets in israel then the idf would stop bombing hezbollah targets.

hezbollah have a state within a state in lebanon, and the lebanese govt is impotent or complicit. many of the images of destruction in beirut are in fact within a 1.5km square area in which hezbollah are the govt, a vatican like city within a city. the media have agendas liek everyone else and choose to portray what they think their audience want to see.

no, there is no easy solution, but terrorists being supplied by iran and syria to fight a proxy war based on religion and islamofascism is not worthy of any decent persons support.

israel is the ONLY democracy in the middle east, and as such shoudl be supported by australians.

i hope that there is peace between israel and surrounding states but it seems that every time progress is close some islamofascist walks into a cafe in israel and murders 50 people.

you also have geniuses like arafat who never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity. he had everything he wanted apart from declaration of a a palestinian state from israel, and he said no. he used his young men as cannon fodder to satiate his ego. and the conflict drags on.

Hezbollah – evil, but hard to find.
Israel – should know better, but easy to find.

You are right the israelies have inflicted more damage in response to attacks… which could and should be deemed the worse of the offenders..

If you listen some theories its all about the water – israel need to get into lebanon for the big pipe system and the hezbollah would destroy any attempts at that.

How many civilians have been killed in Israel by Hezbollah and how many civilians have been killed in Lebanon by the IDF?

Would everyone think it was okay if the British Ministry of Defence had flattened huge chunks of Eire because some IRA members where hiding there and launching attacks against Northern Ireland? I don’t think so.

I am no fan of Hezbollah, but I certainly don’t think Israel’s response against Lebanon was at all restrained. Why was it necessary for Israel to destroy so much Lebanese infrastructure like Beruit International Airport, the water and electricity supply, etc?

Plus, why was it fine for Israel to bomb and attack clearly marked Red Cross ambulances and convoys?

Here is a solution get rid of all of their borders.. Put together a council of moderate jews and muslims that control the mega country.. put trade sanctions on the whole place until they work together and disarm the fucking lot of them, japanese styley.

what have the Romans ever done for us then?

That region has been fighting for hundreds/thousands of years and sadly it will never be a peaceful place.

The issue isn’t a simple one. I agree that both sides are at fault – their inability for diplomacy is disgraceful on BOTH sides. One wonders whether things would be so bad now if Rabin (sp?) wasn’t assasinated – he at the very least seemed (on the face of it) progressive and willing to bend on the behalf of the israelies…

i have read some of saikals articles in the age. he is anti-israel and anti-us. his articles are not balanced and quite partisan. while they preach to their audience, people like him offer no solutions and only further hatred.

there was also an interesting article in sundays ct about how the ‘peace rally’ at the israeli or us embassy on saturday started cheering when one of the speakers named that aust/israeli who was killed in combat against terrorists several weeks ago.

on person was so disgusted at this ‘peace rally’ they left.

Ahhh, isn’t it great to be able to pontificate about Israel’s actions when you can sit around safely in boring old Canberra and not a Haifa bomb shelter.

I think the real issue for some people has been that they believe that Amin Saikal is biased because the ANU’s Centre for Arab and Islamic Studies recieves a large amount of funding from the United Arab Emirates.

Of course it’s alright for the Jewish/Zionist lobby to carry on whenever they want on whatever issue they, no matter how biased that might be!

Publius, what does marrying a graduate student have to do with someone being “anti-US”?

Saikal is absolutely anti Israel on every issue. Many of us were around when he married one of his graduate students. He fits in perfectly with the ANU left wing anti US version of the world. Scratch the surface and there is a lot of hypocrisy.

Whos Danby to call anyone else one sided. Saikal may be equally one sided, but he’s well informed and a reasonable scholar.(Though a terrible writer)

Danbys real problem is not that they identify with a side in the Middle East conflict, its that they dont identify with HIS side.

I thought all ANU academics were required to hate israel as part of their general self-loathing (insofar as israel is the country in the middle east most like ours).

Danby’s playing to his constituents. It must be very hard try and deliver the jewish vote in Melbourne Ports to the ALP when the left carries on like pork chops.