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On Water or On Land Operations

By John Hargreaves 26 September 2014 34

sailing-sea-stock-260914

We have been engaged in a post on the involvement of the military forces in Iraq and Syria in recent days.

Be that as it may, has anyone spotted the rank hypocrisy of the detail of information we have on that conflict?

We know the names of the towns that are strafed, we know how many troops are on the ground, we know how many SAS soldiers are to be despatched. We know the number and type of warplanes and aid aircraft the RAAF are using in the Middle East.

Bu at the same time, we are denied knowledge of the “on water” operations in the Indian Ocean dealing with the “hordes” of asylum seeker boats. We have been given scant information on Operation Sovereign Borders so as not to give the people smugglers advance notice.

But again, we have told the world, including ISIL what we are doing, when we are doing it and with what we are doing it.

And we wonder why we get a mention in the IS threatening post on the internet.

I can’t understand for the life of me why we need to be secretive about the boat people and so open about the war in the Middle East. If anything, I would have thought it better, strategically to be the other way round.

Mr Morrison says that the secrecy has contributed to the success of Operation Sovereign Borders. Does this mean that the openness of our strategic position will contribute to the failure of the Middle Eastern theatre?

I have seen some comment along these lines in the paper and on the radio lately but how many posters agree with me?

What’s Your opinion?


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On Water or On Land Operations
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bigfeet 2:33 pm 29 Sep 14

HenryBG said :

bigfeet said :

magiccar9 said :

[ What about the crime of ILLEGALLY coming to our shores? There is a proper, legal way that everyone else has to follow. If these people want to jump the queue and break the law, that’s a crime and they need to be prepared to face the consequences of their actions.

As has been explained many, many times on this forum, there is nothing illegal about coming to Australia by any means whatsoever for the purpose of claiming asylum.
.

Completely and utterly wrong.

And considering this has been explained on this forum many times, you simply have no excuse to keep repeating your irrational beliefs.

“The verdict

Mr Morrison is correct.

Based on the definition set out in the people smuggling protocol, people who have come to Australia without a valid visa have illegally entered the country.”
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-06/morrison-correct-illegal-entry-people/4935372

Thanks for the link. It confirms my point as it quite clearly states that anyone coming to Australia, by any means whatsoever, for the purpose of claiming asylum have not committed any crime, nor broken any Australian or international law.

bigfeet 5:34 am 29 Sep 14

dungfungus said :

.
You need to do a lot more research my friend. Read wider than The Guardian, Fairfax and ABC.
I have a satellite receiver and from time to time I watch some of the Arabic channels so I know what is broadcast..

My Arabic is limited to basic conversational skills at present. . I watch Arabic TV regularly to try to increase my comprehension of the language. Luckily the general man (or woman) you meet in the street in most Arab countries are fluent in English and all of the news is broadcast in English without any censorship.

I have only been studying arabic for four years, I can read a newspaper, carry on a general conversation etc but that is as far as I can get.

I’m impressed that you are able to watch those channels and completely understand and comprehend, within context what is said.

It took me twenty years of study and immersion of Indonesian to get to that level in that language.

HenryBG 11:29 pm 28 Sep 14

bigfeet said :

magiccar9 said :

[ What about the crime of ILLEGALLY coming to our shores? There is a proper, legal way that everyone else has to follow. If these people want to jump the queue and break the law, that’s a crime and they need to be prepared to face the consequences of their actions.

As has been explained many, many times on this forum, there is nothing illegal about coming to Australia by any means whatsoever for the purpose of claiming asylum.
.

Completely and utterly wrong.

And considering this has been explained on this forum many times, you simply have no excuse to keep repeating your irrational beliefs.

“The verdict

Mr Morrison is correct.

Based on the definition set out in the people smuggling protocol, people who have come to Australia without a valid visa have illegally entered the country.”
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-06/morrison-correct-illegal-entry-people/4935372

bigfeet 6:56 pm 28 Sep 14

dungfungus said :

bigfeet said :

magiccar9 said :

[ What about the crime of ILLEGALLY coming to our shores? There is a proper, legal way that everyone else has to follow. If these people want to jump the queue and break the law, that’s a crime and they need to be prepared to face the consequences of their actions.

As has been explained many, many times on this forum, there is nothing illegal about coming to Australia by any means whatsoever for the purpose of claiming asylum.

Anyone arriving in Australia who declares themselves at the first available opportunity to an official and makes a claim of asylum has broken no law.

Why do you think not a single asylum keeper has ever been charged with “illegally entering Australia”? Not one. Ever. Because they have broken no laws, that is why.

There is an offence for knowingly bringing people to Australia who do not have the correct paperwork, and crew of boats are regularly charged with that but the asylum seekers themselves are not charged because they have not broken any law.

Typing “ILLEGALLY” in capital letters doesn’t change that fact.

Why do the people smugglers get charged then?
If they are doing something illegal the stateless (no papers) asylum seekers must be co-conspirators in whatever crime it is, surely.
BTW bigfoot, you were going to tell us what Slippery Pete would have received as punishment in a Muslim country.

I have tried to explain this before, it is really basic LAW101 stuff.

It is a simple and basic principle of law that an action which is illegal becomes legal if it is “authorised, justified or excused by law”. I’ll say that again: the action becomes legal. Fully legal. To say it another way, it is no longer illegal. It is lawful. Completely lawful. If the act is “authorised, justified or excused by law” then the act is lawful.

I can give you many examples, but here is a simple recent one:
Killing someone is illegal. A police officer killed someone in Melbourne the other day and he was not charged. Why? Because he was acting in self-defence or the defence of another- his actions were “authorised, justified or excused by law.” So therefore his actions are not illegal.

See comment 76 for further examples. : http://the-riotact.com/refugee-candlelight-vigil-in-garema-place-this-saturday-730pm/123501/comment-page-3#comments.

Anyone who has done 1st year law will tell you this principle. And funnily enough, the Attorney-General and the commonwealth DPP have done a little bit more than 1st year law so they understand it fully. That is why they have never prosecuted a asylum seeker. Ever.

dungfungus 5:38 pm 28 Sep 14

bigfeet said :

magiccar9 said :

[ What about the crime of ILLEGALLY coming to our shores? There is a proper, legal way that everyone else has to follow. If these people want to jump the queue and break the law, that’s a crime and they need to be prepared to face the consequences of their actions.

As has been explained many, many times on this forum, there is nothing illegal about coming to Australia by any means whatsoever for the purpose of claiming asylum.

Anyone arriving in Australia who declares themselves at the first available opportunity to an official and makes a claim of asylum has broken no law.

Why do you think not a single asylum keeper has ever been charged with “illegally entering Australia”? Not one. Ever. Because they have broken no laws, that is why.

There is an offence for knowingly bringing people to Australia who do not have the correct paperwork, and crew of boats are regularly charged with that but the asylum seekers themselves are not charged because they have not broken any law.

Typing “ILLEGALLY” in capital letters doesn’t change that fact.

Why do the people smugglers get charged then?
If they are doing something illegal the stateless (no papers) asylum seekers must be co-conspirators in whatever crime it is, surely.
BTW bigfoot, you were going to tell us what Slippery Pete would have received as punishment in a Muslim country.

dungfungus 5:16 pm 28 Sep 14

justin heywood said :

dungfungus said :

Fair comment John.

By god Dungers, has someone hacked your account?

Yes, it looks like that.
I must have been feeling sorry for him.
Big mistake; all it does is provide encouragement.

dungfungus 5:13 pm 28 Sep 14

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

dungfungus said :

bigfeet said :

dungfungus said :

bigfeet said :

dungfungus said :

Given that very few Muslim settlers in Australia speak English and have no intention of learning same…

I assume you have some link with figures to back this wild statement up?

Link here which refers to lack of English language and where the entertainment on TV comes from.
Surely you are capable of looking this up yourself.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/between-two-worlds/story-e6frg8h6-1226617453922

Their is nothing in that article about people having no intention to learn English. In fact, quite the opposite. It shows that most do speak English, albeit not as their first language, and not surprisingly, they are not completely fluent in it.

Sounds very much like my best mates family when I was at school. Their Yugoslav parents and grandparents did not speak very much english so they spoke their native language at home. Just like most immigrant families did (and still do).

And just because news, or porn , or soap dramas, or sports are in a foreign language, why would you assume they are broadcasting supporting terrorism or extremism?

If as you seem to believe, that the Middle East is subject to strict broadcasting censorship, then these channels would be controlled by their respective governments, all of which have vested interests in portraying extremism, fanaticism and terrorism as evil as it would weaken their own grip on power.

From http://www.muslimvillage.com regarding the appointment of a new grand mufti for Australia:
“It remains to be seen how successful the non English speaking new Mufti of Australia Dr Ibrahim Abu Muhammad will be in unifying the diverse Australian Muslim community under one religious authority. Going by the recent controversy regarding the declaration of Eid, it may take some time before? a unified religious leadership emerges, if ever, in Australia.”

If their “leader” doesn’t speak English, what sort of message does that send?

I note that Dungers quotes form that illustrious and well regarded research institute – The Australian – Well now, who’d a thunk it? It’s in the paper so it must be right!

The only quote I have mentioned is the one from http://www.muslimvillage.com.
I have provided links to The Australian. Two different things to most people, John.

dungfungus 5:08 pm 28 Sep 14

magiccar9 said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

What I don’t support is the putting of children in prisons for no crimes whatsoever. I also don’t support turning away people who come to me for help when being abused, I also don’t support he turning around of leaky boats and the shipping off to Cambodia those who “volunteer” it. Morrison is not doing a good job. He is a coward. also, why the secrecy over boats coming but media publicity over our involvement in the middle east. Rank hypocrisy!

What about the crime of ILLEGALLY coming to our shores? There is a proper, legal way that everyone else has to follow. If these people want to jump the queue and break the law, that’s a crime and they need to be prepared to face the consequences of their actions.

Care to explain how Morrison is a coward? You can sit at your keyboard John, but until we see you doing something better, you’re just as much a coward.

I asked you once before John and I didn’t get an answer.
Did you ever fire a shot in anger?

bigfeet 4:10 pm 28 Sep 14

magiccar9 said :

[ What about the crime of ILLEGALLY coming to our shores? There is a proper, legal way that everyone else has to follow. If these people want to jump the queue and break the law, that’s a crime and they need to be prepared to face the consequences of their actions.

As has been explained many, many times on this forum, there is nothing illegal about coming to Australia by any means whatsoever for the purpose of claiming asylum.

Anyone arriving in Australia who declares themselves at the first available opportunity to an official and makes a claim of asylum has broken no law. Why do you think not a single asylum keeper has ever been charged with “illegally entering Australia”? Not one. Ever. Because they have broken no laws, that is why.

There is an offence for knowingly bringing people to Australia who do not have the correct paperwork, and crew of boats are regularly charged with that but the asylum seekers themselves are not charged because they have not broken any law.

Typing “ILLEGALLY” in capital letters doesn’t change that fact.

magiccar9 3:47 pm 28 Sep 14

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

What I don’t support is the putting of children in prisons for no crimes whatsoever. I also don’t support turning away people who come to me for help when being abused, I also don’t support he turning around of leaky boats and the shipping off to Cambodia those who “volunteer” it. Morrison is not doing a good job. He is a coward. also, why the secrecy over boats coming but media publicity over our involvement in the middle east. Rank hypocrisy!

What about the crime of ILLEGALLY coming to our shores? There is a proper, legal way that everyone else has to follow. If these people want to jump the queue and break the law, that’s a crime and they need to be prepared to face the consequences of their actions.

Care to explain how Morrison is a coward? You can sit at your keyboard John, but until we see you doing something better, you’re just as much a coward.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA 1:09 pm 28 Sep 14

dungfungus said :

bigfeet said :

dungfungus said :

bigfeet said :

dungfungus said :

Given that very few Muslim settlers in Australia speak English and have no intention of learning same…

I assume you have some link with figures to back this wild statement up?

Link here which refers to lack of English language and where the entertainment on TV comes from.
Surely you are capable of looking this up yourself.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/between-two-worlds/story-e6frg8h6-1226617453922

Their is nothing in that article about people having no intention to learn English. In fact, quite the opposite. It shows that most do speak English, albeit not as their first language, and not surprisingly, they are not completely fluent in it.

Sounds very much like my best mates family when I was at school. Their Yugoslav parents and grandparents did not speak very much english so they spoke their native language at home. Just like most immigrant families did (and still do).

And just because news, or porn , or soap dramas, or sports are in a foreign language, why would you assume they are broadcasting supporting terrorism or extremism?

If as you seem to believe, that the Middle East is subject to strict broadcasting censorship, then these channels would be controlled by their respective governments, all of which have vested interests in portraying extremism, fanaticism and terrorism as evil as it would weaken their own grip on power.

From http://www.muslimvillage.com regarding the appointment of a new grand mufti for Australia:
“It remains to be seen how successful the non English speaking new Mufti of Australia Dr Ibrahim Abu Muhammad will be in unifying the diverse Australian Muslim community under one religious authority. Going by the recent controversy regarding the declaration of Eid, it may take some time before? a unified religious leadership emerges, if ever, in Australia.”

If their “leader” doesn’t speak English, what sort of message does that send?

I note that Dungers quotes form that illustrious and well regarded research institute – The Australian – Well now, who’d a thunk it? It’s in the paper so it must be right!

John Hargreaves Ex MLA 1:06 pm 28 Sep 14

dungfungus said :

astrojax said :

dungfungus said :

Are you aware that there are over 50 Islamic free to air satellite TV channels available in Australia? This is where all the grief is being spread to our Muslim settlers. This is the only news feed they watch.

and you know this ‘is the only news feed they watch’ how? and ‘they’ are..? hatemongering much, dungy old chap? take it elsewhere please…

Given that very few Muslim settlers in Australia speak English and have no intention of learning same, they can’t watch Australian TV can they?
Have you ever been to some of the suburbs in Sydney that re predominantly Muslim? Those things on the roof are called satellite dishes. They called Enoch Powell a “hatemonger” too but he was right. You may be comfortable with what is going on but to be in denial is something else. I suggest you circulate in the wider community and talk to people from the Middle East who have been “displaced” by Islam. Call them “hatemongers” and see how far you get.

When I lived in Melbourne as a kid, most of the Italian kids I knew had parents who struggled with English, all of the Greek kids I knew had the same issue at home, and many of the Chinese and Vietnamese people I know now have the same issue. The thing really is that we have many really fantastic people from different cultural backgrounds being maligned by a few Andrew Bolt look-a-likes!

John Hargreaves Ex MLA 1:03 pm 28 Sep 14

Rollersk8r said :

I have no problem with it whatsoever. It’s called PR. But it’s not like you were a politician or anything…

You might like to know that I was in politics for 15 years, but in other employ for 30 years before that. And I had my own views even before that. Cut the “politician” cr$p! it is just demeaning yourself.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA 1:02 pm 28 Sep 14

astrojax said :

dungfungus said :

Are you aware that there are over 50 Islamic free to air satellite TV channels available in Australia? This is where all the grief is being spread to our Muslim settlers. This is the only news feed they watch.

and you know this ‘is the only news feed they watch’ how? and ‘they’ are..? hatemongering much, dungy old chap? take it elsewhere please…

spot on

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