Should ambos pay for someone else's cockup? [With Poll]

Antagonist said :

Where do we draw the line between those who are worthy, and those who are not?

Maybe the line should be drawn between people who ride in the back of an ambulance saving lives, and those who don’t. Doesn’t seem like that big an issue to solve to me, more a case of a slippery slope logical fallacy. Besides, it’s not like this is a routine thing, it’s a one-off case, not something to have a bitch-fest about.

Tetranitrate said :

chewy14 said :

Over what time period were the overpayments made?

If it was like five years then maybe I could understand but if you’re suddenly getting a whole lot extra in your paypacket, I’m pretty sure you’d know about it.

Just like if the bank throws an extra $40 000 in your account, if you’re not entitled to it, then cough up the cash. The fact that they’re Ambo’s makes absolutely no difference.

The time period is certainly important – to be honest I probably wouldn’t have noticed anything odd if for instance, an overtime or weekend loading was paid as 2.1 instead of 1.9 and had been that way for years.

It would take an awful long time to build up a debt of $40k+. I am having trouble understanding how such a significant overpayment can relate to Personal Leave. That is a lot of leave.

I don’t really agree that the debts should just be wiped. Why write the debt off for some staff as ‘karma’ points, but not for say … the rest of ACTGS staff in ACT Health. And roadworkers. And senior executives. Where do we draw the line between those who are worthy, and those who are not?

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

Chop71 said :

johnboy said :

2CC reports the ambos have won.

#$%^ me dead, So because some humpty couldn’t process pays properly ACT taxpayers have been slugged extra funds to prop up ambos pays. One guy got a $44,000 bonus. wow, reading your weekly payslip must be like playing lotto for these guys.

do not be a knob. It should not be seen as a bonus, but instead be made into a permanent pay rise. Its a really crappy job and the ambos are heros of society on a daily basis.

So have the people responsible for this miss been disciplined/sacked yet?

chewy14 said :

Over what time period were the overpayments made?

If it was like five years then maybe I could understand but if you’re suddenly getting a whole lot extra in your paypacket, I’m pretty sure you’d know about it.

Just like if the bank throws an extra $40 000 in your account, if you’re not entitled to it, then cough up the cash. The fact that they’re Ambo’s makes absolutely no difference.

The time period is certainly important – to be honest I probably wouldn’t have noticed anything odd if for instance, an overtime or weekend loading was paid as 2.1 instead of 1.9 and had been that way for years.

So the TWU would be equally happy if the CEO of a major transport company or a senior public servant was overpaid by $40 000 or more, yet didn’t have to pay it back?

I’m sorry to say this, but if you can’t work out the sort of pay you should be getting for the hours worked – even if you are doing a lot of overtime – you really aren’t very bright.

DrKoresh said :

chewy14 said :

Over what time period were the overpayments made?

If it was like five years then maybe I could understand but if you’re suddenly getting a whole lot extra in your paypacket, I’m pretty sure you’d know about it.

Just like if the bank throws an extra $40 000 in your account, if you’re not entitled to it, then cough up the cash. The fact that they’re Ambo’s makes absolutely no difference.

The fact they’re ambo’s makes all the difference in the world, I reckon you’ve just got a taste of sour grapes because this didn’t happen to you.

But you aren’t an ambo so… suck it up, those folks are heroes.

I’m a hero too. I put on a cape and fly around my house fighting crime all the time.

Pullleaaassse. Doing a job you’re getting paid for doesn’t make you a hero. They have a hard job, they provide an essential service and they do good work but so do tens of thousands of other people. Doesn’t mean they deserve a $40K bonus.

It’s got nothing to do with sour grapes or jealousy, they’re legitimate questions about how the stuff up was made and how long it’s been going on for.

If they were getting paid an extra $50 a week for many years then I could understand not being made to pay it back but if they were getting a few hundred extra a week then they should have known they weren’t entitled to it.

Being an ambulance officer is a job which is in no way comparable to a typical desk job.

Having said that, unless these errors are applied equally to the pay of all ambulance officers, there are ambulance officers who do not benefit from this ‘bonus’, which is not a recipe for good morale.

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

Chop71 said :

johnboy said :

2CC reports the ambos have won.

#$%^ me dead, So because some humpty couldn’t process pays properly ACT taxpayers have been slugged extra funds to prop up ambos pays. One guy got a $44,000 bonus. wow, reading your weekly payslip must be like playing lotto for these guys.

do not be a knob. It should not be seen as a bonus, but instead be made into a permanent pay rise. Its a really crappy job and the ambos are heros of society on a daily basis.

Doing you job doesn’t make you a hero.

just like having some form of accountability doesn’t make me a knob.

nice try though 🙂

chewy14 said :

Over what time period were the overpayments made?

If it was like five years then maybe I could understand but if you’re suddenly getting a whole lot extra in your paypacket, I’m pretty sure you’d know about it.

Just like if the bank throws an extra $40 000 in your account, if you’re not entitled to it, then cough up the cash. The fact that they’re Ambo’s makes absolutely no difference.

The fact they’re ambo’s makes all the difference in the world, I reckon you’ve just got a taste of sour grapes because this didn’t happen to you.

But you aren’t an ambo so… suck it up, those folks are heroes.

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

Chop71 said :

johnboy said :

2CC reports the ambos have won.

#$%^ me dead, So because some humpty couldn’t process pays properly ACT taxpayers have been slugged extra funds to prop up ambos pays. One guy got a $44,000 bonus. wow, reading your weekly payslip must be like playing lotto for these guys.

do not be a knob. It should not be seen as a bonus, but instead be made into a permanent pay rise. Its a really crappy job and the ambos are heros of society on a daily basis.

I dont disagree ambos earn their money but I dont think this is the best way to adjust that. As I said before shouldnt normal process be followed to decide what appropriate pay rates are? Random pay errors doesnt seem like an equitable system and shouldnt be ignored just because we think its a karma adjustment.

Over what time period were the overpayments made?

If it was like five years then maybe I could understand but if you’re suddenly getting a whole lot extra in your paypacket, I’m pretty sure you’d know about it.

Just like if the bank throws an extra $40 000 in your account, if you’re not entitled to it, then cough up the cash. The fact that they’re Ambo’s makes absolutely no difference.

johnboy said :

2CC reports the ambos have won.

Interesting. The ABC‘s take on the matter is that it’s just a temporary reprieve pending the results of a review.

Chop71 said :

johnboy said :

2CC reports the ambos have won.

#$%^ me dead, So because some humpty couldn’t process pays properly ACT taxpayers have been slugged extra funds to prop up ambos pays. One guy got a $44,000 bonus. wow, reading your weekly payslip must be like playing lotto for these guys.

do not be a knob. It should not be seen as a bonus, but instead be made into a permanent pay rise. Its a really crappy job and the ambos are heros of society on a daily basis.

johnboy said :

2CC reports the ambos have won.

#$%^ me dead, So because some humpty couldn’t process pays properly ACT taxpayers have been slugged extra funds to prop up ambos pays. One guy got a $44,000 bonus. wow, reading your weekly payslip must be like playing lotto for these guys.

Antagonist said :

* Puts Devils Advocate Hat On:
It is a condition of service in both the ACTGS and the APS that staff must know their conditions of service. It really is NOT too much to expect staff to know what they are getting paid. Their conditions of employment dictate that they MUST know what they are getting paid, or what leave entitlements are due to them. It is all set out for them in their Certified Agreements.

Overpayments are rarely the fault of the payee, but this does not change the fact that the Ambo’s received payment or leave credits beyond their legal entitlements. They should have to pay it back, just like any other public servant who receives too much leave credit, overpaid salary, higher duties allowance etc. They are not going to be expected to pay it all back as a lump sum.

*Changes Hat to “In defence of the Ambos”:
As for the errors in personal leave records, I can’t help by wonder if these overpayments stem from just a few years ago when all ACTGS personnel functions were centralised to Shared Services. At that time, most payroll areas were trying to upload leave records onto the new payroll system (Chris21 – known by payroll staff as Crisis 21). Only a small handful of ACTGS agencies had done personal leave uptakes correctly before all ACTGS payroll staff relocated to Civic. ACT Health was not one of those agencies.

The ACTGS leave records were a horrible mess when I left several years ago. Looks like nothing has changed.

Totally agree. I left just as SS was coming into being. At that point we’d be on Chris21 for 2 years and were still doing leave manually on the old fashioned leave cards because the new you-beaut system couldn’t do leave properly. Even then there were rumours that leave for anyone on shift work was being calculated incorrectly but Management at the time were more concerned with implementing Shared Services and hiding the fact that Chris21 was a dud.

2CC reports the ambos have won.

actually its got more to do with the fact that staffing levels are so low that the paramedics are incurring incidental overtime pretty much every shift and annual leave is not being taken or granted at a regular basis – 10 hour day shifts and 14 hour night shifts routinely go over time – ambos dont just clock off at end of shift like regular office workers if a call comes in and your still working get it. added to this are extended waiting at hospitals etc. Annual leave is difficult to take in its entirety – ‘due to operational needs’ clauses – ACTAS is not the only service with this problem, all ambulance services suffer from ‘interesting’ pay office account keeping and pay disputes between and pay office are quite common.

I’d be in favor of having the muppets responsible for the cock-up pay it back.

Antagonist said :

They should have to pay it back, just like any other public servant who receives too much leave credit, overpaid salary, higher duties allowance etc. They are not going to be expected to pay it all back as a lump sum.

Correct. I don’t see why (just because of their profession) they should get an exemption.

So does this largesse here relate to all professions or just ones seen as noble?Would you be so keen if it was a car salesman, ATO staff or some other mundane activity? I have no opinion on their pay rates as such but Id be happy if ambos earnt a fair salary. If this mistake is seen as giving them what they “should” get their should be moves made to change what they earn not rely on an admin error.

A mistake is still just a mistake and you shouldnt deliberately take advantage of someone else.They may not have known at the time (melodramatic statements about blood and guts aside Im sure they spend time on paperwork too) but they do now. Id suggest it be repaid over the same time period they were overpaid.

bundah said :

johnboy said :

It could be ambos have better things to do with their time at work than reconciling their pay slips.

Like scraping blood and guts off the road and putting broken people back together.

They’re worth every cent and then some.

1 They deserve more than this.

* Puts Devils Advocate Hat On:
It is a condition of service in both the ACTGS and the APS that staff must know their conditions of service. It really is NOT too much to expect staff to know what they are getting paid. Their conditions of employment dictate that they MUST know what they are getting paid, or what leave entitlements are due to them. It is all set out for them in their Certified Agreements.

Overpayments are rarely the fault of the payee, but this does not change the fact that the Ambo’s received payment or leave credits beyond their legal entitlements. They should have to pay it back, just like any other public servant who receives too much leave credit, overpaid salary, higher duties allowance etc. They are not going to be expected to pay it all back as a lump sum.

*Changes Hat to “In defence of the Ambos”:
As for the errors in personal leave records, I can’t help by wonder if these overpayments stem from just a few years ago when all ACTGS personnel functions were centralised to Shared Services. At that time, most payroll areas were trying to upload leave records onto the new payroll system (Chris21 – known by payroll staff as Crisis 21). Only a small handful of ACTGS agencies had done personal leave uptakes correctly before all ACTGS payroll staff relocated to Civic. ACT Health was not one of those agencies.

The ACTGS leave records were a horrible mess when I left several years ago. Looks like nothing has changed.

Morgan said :

40k?

How much does an Ambo earn? That sounds like six months salary to me. I would like to understand the specifics of he case, but as employees we know how much leave we are entitled to so surely such a large discrepancy would seem odd, and be worthy of a query. Am I really entitled to this much leave etc.

Kind of like if my employer suddenly started paying me double, I’d know something was up. Reading the article maybe it has been occurring over a very long period.

The answer to your question is here.Not as much as you may think:

http://www.jobs.act.gov.au/site_search?mode=results&queries_all_query=ambulance

johnboy said :

It could be ambos have better things to do with their time at work than reconciling their pay slips.

Like scraping blood and guts off the road and putting broken people back together.

They’re worth every cent and then some.

It could be ambos have better things to do with their time at work than reconciling their pay slips.

Like scraping blood and guts off the road and putting broken people back together.

MMR said :

The way it was reported in the news was that they got extra leave. Surely you’d notice if you got more leave than you’re entitled to? I’d sure notice if my leave balance was higher than it should be and I’d question it.

Maybe they are like my staff. If they think they’ve been under paid I hear within minutes, if they’ve been over paid…..silence.

40k?

How much does an Ambo earn? That sounds like six months salary to me. I would like to understand the specifics of he case, but as employees we know how much leave we are entitled to so surely such a large discrepancy would seem odd, and be worthy of a query. Am I really entitled to this much leave etc.

Kind of like if my employer suddenly started paying me double, I’d know something was up. Reading the article maybe it has been occurring over a very long period.

The way it was reported in the news was that they got extra leave. Surely you’d notice if you got more leave than you’re entitled to? I’d sure notice if my leave balance was higher than it should be and I’d question it.