How dedicated bike lanes work in Amsterdam

triffid said :

Deckard said :

triffid said :

chewy14 said :

Driving from Canberra to Brisbane is the same as driving from Brugge (in Belgium) to Cairo (yes . . . in Egypt).

Give or take a couple of thousand Km.

Look it up on a map, as my Belgian friends did the last time they visited and we were rolling through the night somewhere around Tenterfield. It was their calculation, not mine (and a trip they had apparently done).

What map were they using and what were they smoking?

Seriously, I ran it through Google Maps, and Canberra to Brisbane comes up as 1 200 km and about 14 hours. Driving, rather than cycling.

Brugge to Cairo works out as 3 300 km, which will give you a handy chunk of frequent flyer points.

Look, it’s ok. We’ve all had friends who tell us that something is longer than it really is. Especially if it comes out at night, when it’s hard to run a ruler over it in the backseat of a car.

BicycleCanberra said :

Classified said :

Clearly, when people don’t obey the rules it means a major accident or death is imminent.

It is not a law to wear bicycle helmets in Holland( except in cycle races,which is a UCI requirement) and many other countries. Accidents are low, and the Netherlands has the safest roads in the world.

And in Australia we drive like maniacs

BicycleCanberra said :

shadow boxer said :

Again, and I know you are struggling to compute this concept, most of us have no interest in riding a bike and prefer to pursue the exercise regime of our choice at a time that suits.

Again you are failing to understand that those of us the ride want ”better infrastructure” it has nothing to do with you and your car!

You’re wasting your breath, oil addiction erodes empathy and intelligence.

Deckard said :

triffid said :

chewy14 said :

Driving from Canberra to Brisbane is the same as driving from Brugge (in Belgium) to Cairo (yes . . . in Egypt).

Give or take a couple of thousand Km.

Look it up on a map, as my Belgian friends did the last time they visited and we were rolling through the night somewhere around Tenterfield. It was their calculation, not mine (and a trip they had apparently done).

Classified said :

Clearly, when people don’t obey the rules it means a major accident or death is imminent.

It is not a law to wear bicycle helmets in Holland( except in cycle races,which is a UCI requirement) and many other countries. Accidents are low, and the Netherlands has the safest roads in the world.

shadow boxer said :

Again, and I know you are struggling to compute this concept, most of us have no interest in riding a bike and prefer to pursue the exercise regime of our choice at a time that suits.

Again you are failing to understand that those of us the ride want ”better infrastructure” it has nothing to do with you and your car!

KB1971 said :

shadow boxer said :

BicycleCanberra said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

It doesn’t work for everyone and you might not realise that maybe most of the people who are driving cars to and from work have a very good reason for it – dropping kids off to distant school, needing to travel during the day from job site to job site, not being allowed to get their work uniform wet on rainy days, needing to pick up kids from school if they become ill during the day..etc, etc.
Cycling was invented to make walking redundant, cars were invented to make cycling redundant.

They also have tradesman in Holland would you believe they have virtually everything we have including major highways, so tradesman use there vans and most people have cars.
Most children cycle to school independently from 8 years old which the most of us use to do when we were going to school here in Canberra. Now we have ‘drive thru’ schools and are congested during drop off and pick up times. Making school zones very dangerous for Children.
Instead of driving to the local shops or the park why not ride your bike.Cars do not make the bicycles redundant they just make us fat.

Again, and I know you are struggling to compute this concept, most of us have no interest in riding a bike and prefer to pursue the exercise regime of our choice at a time that suits.

Yep & that’s your choice. All Bicycle Canberra is trying to point out is the you canthink outside of the box if you try.

There is a bloke who commutes & takes his kid in a trailer on Adelaide Ave (that’s another story) so it can be done if you try and it suits.

No one is trying to say that cars should be banned altogether as they are required but where people could, they should try something different to help reduce the road congestion that everybody keeps whinging about.

Too often people just dismiss things without even trying. Man we are getting lazy.

Yeh see again you come from a position that in a perfect world cars are a bad thing and everyone that could would ride. Therefore inconveniencing the majority in support of bikes is o.k. because we need to get to that flawed end point.

It is a false starting point that makes the rest of your arguments invalid. The vast majority of people have no interest in riding but are happy to support those that do provided you don’t screw over our commutes in the process. This doesn’t make them lazy, it just means they don’t share the same enthusiasm you do.

shadow boxer said :

BicycleCanberra said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

It doesn’t work for everyone and you might not realise that maybe most of the people who are driving cars to and from work have a very good reason for it – dropping kids off to distant school, needing to travel during the day from job site to job site, not being allowed to get their work uniform wet on rainy days, needing to pick up kids from school if they become ill during the day..etc, etc.
Cycling was invented to make walking redundant, cars were invented to make cycling redundant.

They also have tradesman in Holland would you believe they have virtually everything we have including major highways, so tradesman use there vans and most people have cars.
Most children cycle to school independently from 8 years old which the most of us use to do when we were going to school here in Canberra. Now we have ‘drive thru’ schools and are congested during drop off and pick up times. Making school zones very dangerous for Children.
Instead of driving to the local shops or the park why not ride your bike.Cars do not make the bicycles redundant they just make us fat.

Again, and I know you are struggling to compute this concept, most of us have no interest in riding a bike and prefer to pursue the exercise regime of our choice at a time that suits.

Yep & that’s your choice. All Bicycle Canberra is trying to point out is the you canthink outside of the box if you try.

There is a bloke who commutes & takes his kid in a trailer on Adelaide Ave (that’s another story) so it can be done if you try and it suits.

No one is trying to say that cars should be banned altogether as they are required but where people could, they should try something different to help reduce the road congestion that everybody keeps whinging about.

Too often people just dismiss things without even trying. Man we are getting lazy.

Jungle Jim said :

KB1971 said :

Takes me 30 minutes toget to Woden from Lanyon. My half way mark is the southern most entrance to Beazley street from Athllon Dve.

How can the half way mark between Woden and Lanyon be Beasley Street (I assume Farrer)?

Google maps has the distance between Callam St and Box Hill Ave as 15.4km by Athllon and it’s only about 3km to Beasley…

A) google maps is not 100% accurate and also doesn’t take into account that I am using the cycle paths.
B) Lanyon is the general area I leave from, I am a little south of the shops (2km) Taking into account that the cycle paths are a bit longer and I live further south, that makes Beaseley St the middle. More than one cycle computer has confirmed this.

BicycleCanberra said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

It doesn’t work for everyone and you might not realise that maybe most of the people who are driving cars to and from work have a very good reason for it – dropping kids off to distant school, needing to travel during the day from job site to job site, not being allowed to get their work uniform wet on rainy days, needing to pick up kids from school if they become ill during the day..etc, etc.
Cycling was invented to make walking redundant, cars were invented to make cycling redundant.

They also have tradesman in Holland would you believe they have virtually everything we have including major highways, so tradesman use there vans and most people have cars.
Most children cycle to school independently from 8 years old which the most of us use to do when we were going to school here in Canberra. Now we have ‘drive thru’ schools and are congested during drop off and pick up times. Making school zones very dangerous for Children.
Instead of driving to the local shops or the park why not ride your bike.Cars do not make the bicycles redundant they just make us fat.

Again, and I know you are struggling to compute this concept, most of us have no interest in riding a bike and prefer to pursue the exercise regime of our choice at a time that suits.

mutley said :

OMG! No one is wearing helmets! They must all want to die!

Clearly, when people don’t obey the rules it means a major accident or death is imminent.

OMG! No one is wearing helmets! They must all want to die!

wildturkeycanoe said :

It doesn’t work for everyone and you might not realise that maybe most of the people who are driving cars to and from work have a very good reason for it – dropping kids off to distant school, needing to travel during the day from job site to job site, not being allowed to get their work uniform wet on rainy days, needing to pick up kids from school if they become ill during the day..etc, etc.
Cycling was invented to make walking redundant, cars were invented to make cycling redundant.

They also have tradesman in Holland would you believe they have virtually everything we have including major highways, so tradesman use there vans and most people have cars.
Most children cycle to school independently from 8 years old which the most of us use to do when we were going to school here in Canberra. Now we have ‘drive thru’ schools and are congested during drop off and pick up times. Making school zones very dangerous for Children.
Instead of driving to the local shops or the park why not ride your bike.Cars do not make the bicycles redundant they just make us fat.

KB1971 said :

Takes me 30 minutes toget to Woden from Lanyon. My half way mark is the southern most entrance to Beazley street from Athllon Dve.

How can the half way mark between Woden and Lanyon be Beasley Street (I assume Farrer)?

Google maps has the distance between Callam St and Box Hill Ave as 15.4km by Athllon and it’s only about 3km to Beasley…

KB1971 said :

I forgot to add, you also need a reasonable bike. I don’t mean a $3000 carbon show pony but something at least over the $500 mark. So many people go & buy a Kmart special & it is heavy and unreliable so it puts them off.

This is not the case in Amsterdam. Most of the bikes look like them been rejected by Revolve. This is because any good bike passes without permission through the thighs of temporary owners. The basic rule of thumb is that the bike lock needs to cost more than the bike.

I forgot to add, you also need a reasonable bike. I don’t mean a $3000 carbon show pony but something at least over the $500 mark. So many people go & buy a Kmart special & it is heavy and unreliable so it puts them off.

People also buy the wrong bike, if you are going to commute on it, don’t buy a mountain bike, there are heaps of good commuter bikes out there that eat up the miles better than a MTB.

Seriously, I would give it a go rather than discount it completely.

chewy14 said :

KB1971 said :

Exaggeration much????? I live 30km from work, it takes an hour in the morning & 50 minutes in the arvnon the bus if I take a 3 series. For me to drive & park in peak hour it takes between 40 to 50 minutes to drive in the peak time. Please explain how you can turn a 90 minute bus ride into a 15 minute drive?
I agree on the riding bit, 60 to 70 km is daunting first up but cycling is a funny thing. It can become very addictive & the miles come the more you do it.

I’d you work in a town centre then the buses can be OK. I don’t work in a town centre and would have to catch two. It takes 90 min for a 15 min drive. Trust me, I wish it wasn’t the case.

Yup there are holes in the network I guess. I know Fyshwick is a PITA to get to by bus.

15 minute drive? That could easily be turned into a 30 minute bike ride. Takes me 30 minutes toget to Woden from Lanyon. My half way mark is the southern most entrance to Beazley street from Athllon Dve.

Riding to work is great, especially on the paths away from the traffic. It clears your head, easpecially after a crap day.

I was like you, reliant on vehicular transport but now I use a combination of bike & busses. I hate to drive in at the busy time now.

Public Transport – designed for people NOT in a hurry. I’d have to walk 10 minutes to get to the closest bus stop – 800m away – then it takes 46 minutes to get to where I am presently working. In the afternoon I’d have to wait half an hour after knock off for the next bus, then it takes 50 minutes to get near home and another 10 minutes to walk. There is 2 hours and 16 minutes wasted in commuting, whereas my car will do it in total under 40 minutes.
As for riding my bike. How am I supposed to carry 30kg of tools, let alone travel during work hours between jobs if called upon.
It doesn’t work for everyone and you might not realise that maybe most of the people who are driving cars to and from work have a very good reason for it – dropping kids off to distant school, needing to travel during the day from job site to job site, not being allowed to get their work uniform wet on rainy days, needing to pick up kids from school if they become ill during the day..etc, etc.
Cycling was invented to make walking redundant, cars were invented to make cycling redundant.

shadow boxer said :

Skyring said :

If the lights weren’t there, people – especially the elderly and those with kids – would save themselves a 450m walk by just walking across the road. And it is 450m – just check Google Maps here.

I’ll say it again. It takes 30 seconds out of your trip for a few weeks each year. If you are ready to dump your happiness for something so trivial, then you need to think about your life values a bit more.

30 seconds ! have you seen how far that traffic banks up in peak hour.

I’m a taxi driver. Trust me – I know all about peak hour! The big problem on that stretch of road isn’t the pedestrian crossing so much as the interplay between traffic getting out of the carparks and Commonwealth Avenue traffic, a lot of it trying to change lanes to make their upcoming exits. Even if there was a pedestrian tunnel, you’d still need temporary lights and a reduced speed limit to let the cars out of the carparks safely. There’s no other exit for them but onto Commonwealth Avenue.

Stevian said :

For such a system to work here, Australians would have to possess civility and common sense. You see the problem?

Don’t be so negative. There’s more to Australia than this sorry lot!

Time trials: Northbourne versus side streets, averaged out over a week, at rush hour, from Antil to civic.

For such a system to work here, Australians would have to possess civility and common sense. You see the problem?

Aeek said :

KB1971 said :

I agree on the riding bit, 60 to 70 km is daunting first up but cycling is a funny thing. It can become very addictive & the miles come the more you do it.

and if you are spending hours in the gym, you can do that on the bike instead.

Yah, I kill two birds with one stone. Having a family can make you somewhat time poor so any advantage I can have with my exercise in when I can.

KB1971 said :

Exaggeration much????? I live 30km from work, it takes an hour in the morning & 50 minutes in the arvnon the bus if I take a 3 series. For me to drive & park in peak hour it takes between 40 to 50 minutes to drive in the peak time. Please explain how you can turn a 90 minute bus ride into a 15 minute drive?
I agree on the riding bit, 60 to 70 km is daunting first up but cycling is a funny thing. It can become very addictive & the miles come the more you do it.

I’d you work in a town centre then the buses can be OK. I don’t work in a town centre and would have to catch two. It takes 90 min for a 15 min drive. Trust me, I wish it wasn’t the case.

Wow, a big red path and not a bike on it. What a waste of money.

KB1971 said :

I agree on the riding bit, 60 to 70 km is daunting first up but cycling is a funny thing. It can become very addictive & the miles come the more you do it.

and if you are spending hours in the gym, you can do that on the bike instead.

Segregated bike lanes won’t work without the mopeds to keep the pedestrians away. They already use the Northbourne lanes to avoid the puddles across the pathetic footpaths.

chewy14 said :

Grail said :

PigDog said :

I don’t think it is fair to compare the roads in those photos with Northbourne. Show me a six lane road that has these bike lanes, please.

The other four lanes disappeared under the tram tracks, pedestrian islands and cycleways. You don’t need six lanes for single-occupant cars when more people use busses, trams and bikes.

I ride from Isabella Plains to Dickson. Not as regularly as I’d like, due to being lazy about getting out of bed. On other days I catch the bus (Blue and Red rapid make it easier). In my youth a bunch of us from the same street would ride 4-5km to school and not bat an eyelid. It didn’t occur to us at the time that our parents owed us transport into school in private vehicles.

As for Skyring’s words about Amsterdam – yes, in Amsterdam you have to keep your wits about you when out in public. The pedestrian paths in Centraal are packed shoulder-to-shoulder at most times of day, the bike paths are a constant flow of high-speed traffic, there are trams coming and going at all hours. There’s no place in Amsterdam for people daydreaming while crossing roads.

A bunch of folks here on The RiotACT should just try catching the bus some time: those days when it’s the other parent’s turn to drop the kids off at school. The days you don’t have stuff on in the evening. Catching the bus is an opportunity to relax, since you are essentially being chauffeur-driven to work and back home 🙂

Pop into the newsagent, pick up a $20 MyWay card, catch the bus. It’s really that simple. Check out the Weekday Network Map and route maps and figure out which routes serve your home and work stops. If you want to get the timing right, check the timetables for those routes and make sure you’re at the bus stop at the right time. Otherwise just hang out at the stop and wait.

Read a book, watch a vodcast, do some programming – stuff you wouldn’t normally be able to do because you’re driving.

OK first of all, very few people want to ride 60-70kms every day. I can’t possibly think why but anyway.

I’d also love to catch the bus, unfortunately the 90 min bus ride instead of a 15min car drive makes it a bit harder.

Exaggeration much????? I live 30km from work, it takes an hour in the morning & 50 minutes in the arvnon the bus if I take a 3 series. For me to drive & park in peak hour it takes between 40 to 50 minutes to drive in the peak time. Please explain how you can turn a 90 minute bus ride into a 15 minute drive?

I agree on the riding bit, 60 to 70 km is daunting first up but cycling is a funny thing. It can become very addictive & the miles come the more you do it.

triffid said :

chewy14 said :

Driving from Canberra to Brisbane is the same as driving from Brugge (in Belgium) to Cairo (yes . . . in Egypt).

Give or take a couple of thousand Km.

Asan Jim jones, back to your old tricks of not addressing the points raised and selectively misquoting.

With my plans no-one crosses any roads and traffic flows freely, why are you so attached to these lights when there is a better solution.

I have it on good authority that Cadel doesn’t pay bike rego. Shameless parasite.

Grail said :

PigDog said :

I don’t think it is fair to compare the roads in those photos with Northbourne. Show me a six lane road that has these bike lanes, please.

The other four lanes disappeared under the tram tracks, pedestrian islands and cycleways. You don’t need six lanes for single-occupant cars when more people use busses, trams and bikes.

I ride from Isabella Plains to Dickson. Not as regularly as I’d like, due to being lazy about getting out of bed. On other days I catch the bus (Blue and Red rapid make it easier). In my youth a bunch of us from the same street would ride 4-5km to school and not bat an eyelid. It didn’t occur to us at the time that our parents owed us transport into school in private vehicles.

As for Skyring’s words about Amsterdam – yes, in Amsterdam you have to keep your wits about you when out in public. The pedestrian paths in Centraal are packed shoulder-to-shoulder at most times of day, the bike paths are a constant flow of high-speed traffic, there are trams coming and going at all hours. There’s no place in Amsterdam for people daydreaming while crossing roads.

A bunch of folks here on The RiotACT should just try catching the bus some time: those days when it’s the other parent’s turn to drop the kids off at school. The days you don’t have stuff on in the evening. Catching the bus is an opportunity to relax, since you are essentially being chauffeur-driven to work and back home 🙂

Pop into the newsagent, pick up a $20 MyWay card, catch the bus. It’s really that simple. Check out the Weekday Network Map and route maps and figure out which routes serve your home and work stops. If you want to get the timing right, check the timetables for those routes and make sure you’re at the bus stop at the right time. Otherwise just hang out at the stop and wait.

Read a book, watch a vodcast, do some programming – stuff you wouldn’t normally be able to do because you’re driving.

OK first of all, very few people want to ride 60-70kms every day. I can’t possibly think why but anyway.

I’d also love to catch the bus, unfortunately the 90 min bus ride instead of a 15min car drive makes it a bit harder.

Cadel Evans just won the Tour de France. He didn’t do it with a separated bike lane. He put his head down and bloody well pushed on those pedals. You wanna play on the road with tonnes of steel…STFU and do the same.

PigDog said :

I don’t think it is fair to compare the roads in those photos with Northbourne. Show me a six lane road that has these bike lanes, please.

The other four lanes disappeared under the tram tracks, pedestrian islands and cycleways. You don’t need six lanes for single-occupant cars when more people use busses, trams and bikes.

I ride from Isabella Plains to Dickson. Not as regularly as I’d like, due to being lazy about getting out of bed. On other days I catch the bus (Blue and Red rapid make it easier). In my youth a bunch of us from the same street would ride 4-5km to school and not bat an eyelid. It didn’t occur to us at the time that our parents owed us transport into school in private vehicles.

As for Skyring’s words about Amsterdam – yes, in Amsterdam you have to keep your wits about you when out in public. The pedestrian paths in Centraal are packed shoulder-to-shoulder at most times of day, the bike paths are a constant flow of high-speed traffic, there are trams coming and going at all hours. There’s no place in Amsterdam for people daydreaming while crossing roads.

A bunch of folks here on The RiotACT should just try catching the bus some time: those days when it’s the other parent’s turn to drop the kids off at school. The days you don’t have stuff on in the evening. Catching the bus is an opportunity to relax, since you are essentially being chauffeur-driven to work and back home 🙂

Pop into the newsagent, pick up a $20 MyWay card, catch the bus. It’s really that simple. Check out the Weekday Network Map and route maps and figure out which routes serve your home and work stops. If you want to get the timing right, check the timetables for those routes and make sure you’re at the bus stop at the right time. Otherwise just hang out at the stop and wait.

Read a book, watch a vodcast, do some programming – stuff you wouldn’t normally be able to do because you’re driving.

@ shadow boxer
Excuses for what ? this may come as as a major, major shock to you in your cocoon of smugness but, wait for it, “most people have no interest in cycling to work .

sorry wrong quote, triffid

shadow boxer said :

Skyring said :

dpm said :

shadow boxer said :

And while i’m at it why do we have pedestrian lights on c’wealth ave disrupting peak hour traffic for months for floriade when 100 metres down the road people can walk underneath the bridge and into the park.

Hmmm, that’s actually a damn good point! My (unfortunate) guess is that without the lights, most people were trying to play frogger to save thesleves a 100m walk…..

If the lights weren’t there, people – especially the elderly and those with kids – would save themselves a 450m walk by just walking across the road. And it is 450m – just check Google Maps here.

I’ll say it again. It takes 30 seconds out of your trip for a few weeks each year. If you are ready to dump your happiness for something so trivial, then you need to think about your life values a bit more.

30 seconds ! have you seen how far that traffic banks up in peak hour.

450 metres depends on what you consider the start and end point, if the gates to Floriade were down near the underpass the current walk would be 450m and there would be no need for the elderly to climb the hill up to the road 😉

As for if we don’t do it parents would play chicken with the traffic, the nanny state at it’s best…..

Looking after pedestrians attending Floriade is ‘the nanny state’?

Jesus Christ on a freaking pogo-stick, if you keep crying ‘nanny state, nanny state’ every time someone forces you to consider the interests of people other than yourself, you’re going to turn into Andrew Bolt or Piers Ackerman or something.

If you keep crying ‘nanny state, nanny state’ every time someone considers the possibility that cars aren’t the only form of travel, and that perhaps they shoudn’t be privileged above all else, then eventually you’ll turn into a tedious bogan and vote for the motorists party.

triffid said :

Excuses for what ? this may come as as a major, major shock to you in your cocoon of smugness but, wait for it, “most people have no interest in cycling to work “.

That’s fine, but there are many people who would like to, if only there was better infrastructure. Which is what this topic is all about.

triffid said :

What? So now it’s what, as case of, “Was machen sie hier? Vy are you not ze bicycle to verk riden? Vy, back ins ze faterland, ve would to work riden in schnee zwei meter deep und our handen und fus to ice become! You are veek und of excuses voll!”

LOL Classic!

Skyring said :

dpm said :

shadow boxer said :

And while i’m at it why do we have pedestrian lights on c’wealth ave disrupting peak hour traffic for months for floriade when 100 metres down the road people can walk underneath the bridge and into the park.

Hmmm, that’s actually a damn good point! My (unfortunate) guess is that without the lights, most people were trying to play frogger to save thesleves a 100m walk…..

If the lights weren’t there, people – especially the elderly and those with kids – would save themselves a 450m walk by just walking across the road. And it is 450m – just check Google Maps here.

I’ll say it again. It takes 30 seconds out of your trip for a few weeks each year. If you are ready to dump your happiness for something so trivial, then you need to think about your life values a bit more.

30 seconds ! have you seen how far that traffic banks up in peak hour.

450 metres depends on what you consider the start and end point, if the gates to Floriade were down near the underpass the current walk would be 450m and there would be no need for the elderly to climb the hill up to the road 😉

As for if we don’t do it parents would play chicken with the traffic, the nanny state at it’s best…..

Jungle Jim said :

triffid said :

…Because the sub-text of doing so is riven with ‘cultural change’ in flashing neon lights, while simultaneously remaining oblivious to the elephant in the room in the form of the reality of the spatial paradigm semi-unique to our surroundings. It’s a confused message full of static.

You got that right.

Soory ’bout that. I’ll type slower in future.

triffid said :

…Because the sub-text of doing so is riven with ‘cultural change’ in flashing neon lights, while simultaneously remaining oblivious to the elephant in the room in the form of the reality of the spatial paradigm semi-unique to our surroundings. It’s a confused message full of static.

You got that right.

shadow boxer said :

…all your proposals involve inconveniencing the majority of road users.

This is Pedal Powers idea. Pedal Power does not speak for me.

It’s not just that the shared paths are dodgy. The entire system is piecemeal, poorly planned, inadequate or non-existent in newer suburbs and not keeping pace with the growth in cycling.

BicycleCanberra said :

Denmark, Germany and Holland have long cold dark winters much colder that Canberra but still maintain high cycling rates during Winter. Sorry, but just excuses!

What? So now it’s what, as case of, “Was machen sie hier? Vy are you not ze bicycle to verk riden? Vy, back ins ze faterland, ve would to work riden in schnee zwei meter deep und our handen und fus to ice become! You are veek und of excuses voll!”

Sorry . . . lost me for good there. I’ve been on a chain gang / hammer head ride in Belgium, in winter, more than once. Done it. Over it. No abiding desire to do it again. Ever. Not even in a positively tropical Canberra winter.

Like I said earlier . . . it wouldn’t hurt to take the zealotry out of the argument.

dpm said :

shadow boxer said :

And while i’m at it why do we have pedestrian lights on c’wealth ave disrupting peak hour traffic for months for floriade when 100 metres down the road people can walk underneath the bridge and into the park.

Hmmm, that’s actually a damn good point! My (unfortunate) guess is that without the lights, most people were trying to play frogger to save thesleves a 100m walk…..

If the lights weren’t there, people – especially the elderly and those with kids – would save themselves a 450m walk by just walking across the road. And it is 450m – just check Google Maps here.

I’ll say it again. It takes 30 seconds out of your trip for a few weeks each year. If you are ready to dump your happiness for something so trivial, then you need to think about your life values a bit more.

BicycleCanberra said :

Lets not get carried away here, all we are talking about is having separate cycle facilities that improve safety , not trying to change a car centric culture, one that used to use bikes more that cars half a century ago.

Really? And your evidence for this might be . . . Because, as someone who can actually remember back almost half a century, that sure isn’t my recollection. My instinct also tells me (as someone who once managed an inner-capital-city bicycle store in a recent past life) that if you were doing a comparative analysis of bike vs car sales in 1961, as against bike vs car sales in 2011, that you’d find much greater bike sales — and, one presumes, use — now (in fact, it’s about par, now, if I recall: sell 1 million cars – sell 1 million bicycles).

My point is that this isn’t ‘Field of Dreams’. If you build it, they won’t come! shadow boxer is bang on there. To continue this sophistry of holding up Copenhagen and Amsterdam as paragons of how things might be done does not — in my view — do the cause any favours. Why not? Because the sub-text of doing so is riven with ‘cultural change’ in flashing neon lights, while simultaneously remaining oblivious to the elephant in the room in the form of the reality of the spatial paradigm semi-unique to our surroundings. It’s a confused message full of static.

Just come up with the compelling, persuasive, argument that identifies and answers the need — now and projected — that has a foresight attuned to domestic realities. Then build the case that it IS Field of Dreams. And realise that even people like me, who once upon a time would ride up to 1000 km a week (yes . . . a thousand) and who were staunch advocates of bicycle use, will likely never be converted back from the convenience that the pragmatic use of any of my tin boxes with wheels affords.

niftydog said :

doomguy1001 said :

You want the dedicated bike lanes? Amsterdam style? Pay rego…

I do. Probably 95% of cyclists do. So where’s our updated/improved infrastructure already?!

doomguy1001 said :

…cyclists using the road based bike lanes have been getting a free ride

You people keep saying that, but nobody has yet offered me rebates on my rego, my taxes or my rates for all the days I cycle instead of driving. What gives?

If enough people want change or development of cycling infrastructure, why can’t they get it? The people who ACTUALLY USE this infrastructure that WE ALL PAY FOR are just trying to tell you that it’s broken.

The 100 year old plan for the city, it’s resemblance (or otherwise) to a city in the Netherlands, it’s population density and all the other crap that comes up on this topic is all completely irrelevant.

Well at least that’s an easy one, you can’t get it because all your proposals involve inconveniencing the majority of road users. whats next dedicated motorbike lanes ?

If the off road bike paths aren’t up to scratch by all means campaign to get them fixed, most of us will support you.

doomguy1001 said :

You want the dedicated bike lanes? Amsterdam style? Pay rego…

I do. Probably 95% of cyclists do. So where’s our updated/improved infrastructure already?!

doomguy1001 said :

…cyclists using the road based bike lanes have been getting a free ride

You people keep saying that, but nobody has yet offered me rebates on my rego, my taxes or my rates for all the days I cycle instead of driving. What gives?

If enough people want change or development of cycling infrastructure, why can’t they get it? The people who ACTUALLY USE this infrastructure that WE ALL PAY FOR are just trying to tell you that it’s broken.

The 100 year old plan for the city, it’s resemblance (or otherwise) to a city in the Netherlands, it’s population density and all the other crap that comes up on this topic is all completely irrelevant.

BicycleCanberra said :

shadow boxer said :

Rubbish, we could have the best infrastructure in the world with one whole lane of northbourne dedicated to cyclists and the rates of people riding would barely change.

People have kids to drop at school, jobs that don’t have showers available, medical conditions, things to do, require their car during the day and it is freezing 6 months a year

I think the countries that have the mildest temperatures throughout the year have low cycling rates,
Denmark, Germany and Holland have long cold dark winters much colder that Canberra but still maintain high cycling rates during Winter. Sorry, but just excuses!

http://youtu.be/FXw_t172BKY

Excuses for what ? this may come as as a major, major shock to you in your cocoon of smugness but, wait for it, “most people have no interest in cycling to work “.

shadow boxer said :

Rubbish, we could have the best infrastructure in the world with one whole lane of northbourne dedicated to cyclists and the rates of people riding would barely change.

People have kids to drop at school, jobs that don’t have showers available, medical conditions, things to do, require their car during the day and it is freezing 6 months a year

I think the countries that have the mildest temperatures throughout the year have low cycling rates,
Denmark, Germany and Holland have long cold dark winters much colder that Canberra but still maintain high cycling rates during Winter. Sorry, but just excuses!

http://youtu.be/FXw_t172BKY

I am constantly surprised by the influence pedal power has on our city (thanks for stuffing up the roundabouts you fools). As a member of the motorcycle community it disgusts me that so much weight is given to their demands while the motorcycle community has actually had conditions worsened in relation to severity of injury. Lets put more needless metal poled signs around the roads, lets build more speed humps and lets also install armco railings that will cheese grate a motorcyclists instead of reducing injury.

Pedal power just pushes all those nice happy green fuzzy buttons don’t they? It’s discrimination I say.

BicycleCanberra said :

triffid said :

It’s also simple maths. Amsterdam: 4,457 people per square kilometre. Canberra: 424 people per square kilometre. (Sydney: 4,032 people per square kilometre). Next nearest population centre to Amsterdam: Utrecht – 400,000 people only 40 km away. Next nearest (real) population centre to Canberra: Sydney – 4.6 million people 300 km away. Total surface area of Holland: 41,543 square km. Surface area of Victoria: 227,000 square km. There is a completely different spatial paradigm here — even in the ACT — that needs to be accepted. Zealotry for a cause needs to be removed from the argument.

Driving from Canberra to Brisbane is the same as driving from Brugge (in Belgium) to Cairo (yes . . . in Egypt).

We’ve mentioned this before, There are cities just as dense or more dense that have lower cycling rates than Canberra , London is a good example just 1% . If I could substitute the words of Bill Clinton(its the economy stupid) ‘Its the infrastructure stupid!”

Rubbish, we could have the best infrastructure in the world with one whole lane of northbourne dedicated to cyclists and the rates of people riding would barely change.

People have kids to drop at school, jobs that don’t have showers available, medical conditions, things to do, require their car during the day and it is freezing 6 months a year

shadow boxer said :

And while i’m at it why do we have pedestrian lights on c’wealth ave disrupting peak hour traffic for months for floriade when 100 metres down the road people can walk underneath the bridge and into the park.

Hmmm, that’s actually a damn good point! My (unfortunate) guess is that without the lights, most people were trying to play frogger to save thesleves a 100m walk…..

triffid said :

It’s also simple maths. Amsterdam: 4,457 people per square kilometre. Canberra: 424 people per square kilometre. (Sydney: 4,032 people per square kilometre). Next nearest population centre to Amsterdam: Utrecht – 400,000 people only 40 km away. Next nearest (real) population centre to Canberra: Sydney – 4.6 million people 300 km away. Total surface area of Holland: 41,543 square km. Surface area of Victoria: 227,000 square km. There is a completely different spatial paradigm here — even in the ACT — that needs to be accepted. Zealotry for a cause needs to be removed from the argument.

Driving from Canberra to Brisbane is the same as driving from Brugge (in Belgium) to Cairo (yes . . . in Egypt).

We’ve mentioned this before, There are cities just as dense or more dense that have lower cycling rates than Canberra , London is a good example just 1% . If I could substitute the words of Bill Clinton(its the economy stupid) ‘Its the infrastructure stupid!”

triffid said :

chewy14 said :

And you’ll never change anything for the better by assuming that things that work overseas in cities with completely different demographics will work here.

Absolutely spot on. Overlay, as well, the cultural differences resulting from the pattern of evolution of European cites and the contrast is stark. I can recall seeing a movie come out, at midnight, in Groningen (in Holland), with people everywhere, most of them filing into a multi-story ‘car’ park. Except, it wasn’t a car park . . . it was a multi-story bicycle (only) park. It was also late January.

Ask yourself how long you will wait before you see that happen here, even if the infrastructure and other incentives were plonked into place overnight by the bicycle genie.
.

Lets not get carried away here, all we are talking about is having separate cycle facilities that improve safety , not trying to change a car centric culture, one that used to use bikes more that cars half a century ago.

chewy14 said :

And you’ll never change anything for the better by assuming that things that work overseas in cities with completely different demographics will work here.

Absolutely spot on. Overlay, as well, the cultural differences resulting from the pattern of evolution of European cites and the contrast is stark. I can recall seeing a movie come out, at midnight, in Groningen (in Holland), with people everywhere, most of them filing into a multi-story ‘car’ park. Except, it wasn’t a car park . . . it was a multi-story bicycle (only) park. It was also late January. Ask yourself how long you will wait before you see that happen here, even if the infrastructure and other incentives were plonked into place overnight by the bicycle genie.

It’s also simple maths. Amsterdam: 4,457 people per square kilometre. Canberra: 424 people per square kilometre. (Sydney: 4,032 people per square kilometre). Next nearest population centre to Amsterdam: Utrecht – 400,000 people only 40 km away. Next nearest (real) population centre to Canberra: Sydney – 4.6 million people 300 km away. Total surface area of Holland: 41,543 square km. Surface area of Victoria: 227,000 square km. There is a completely different spatial paradigm here — even in the ACT — that needs to be accepted. Zealotry for a cause needs to be removed from the argument.

Driving from Canberra to Brisbane is the same as driving from Brugge (in Belgium) to Cairo (yes . . . in Egypt).

doomguy1001 said :

I really can’t believe people still post comments like this on this site.

1. Most cyclists are also motorists who pay registration.
2. Registration fees don’t come anywhere near funding the road system, most of that comes from general taxation revenue.

On a different note, I suspect the direction to go with furthering cycling in Canberra is to better integrate it with public transport. The distances from the suburbs to most places of work are pretty unpalatable for most people to ride the whole way, but a short ride to the nearest town/group centre and an express service to the city might be more workable.

doomguy1001 said :

Amsterdam is NOT Canberra! Hope that is clear for some of you out there.

You want the dedicated bike lanes? Amsterdam style? Pay rego. Road vehicle traffic pays rego to basically pay for the cost of construction and maintenance of the roads – cyclists using the road based bike lanes have been getting a free ride (excuse the pun) on the road system for too long.

Note: they don’t pay rego for bicycles in Holland or in Denmark. Should pedestrians have to pay rego for Footpaths? Silly analogy, We all pay rego,rates and taxes.

Amsterdam is NOT Canberra! Hope that is clear for some of you out there.

Canberra was designed with cars and the possibility of a rail/tram system in mind. Not the Utopian cyclist paradise you wish to create, I second what SkyRing said about keeping cyclists away from roads as much as possible.

Think about it, How can a cyclist be run over or be involved in any kind of contact with the road traffic (with the exception of intersections) if they are riding on a bike path/pedestrian path at least two or so metres away from the road.

Granted the bike path system doesn’t exactly lend itself to direct timely commuting and heaven forbid that pedestrians with children and/or dogs could using them. But surely the existing network could be looked at and improvements made to cater for more direct travel using the bike path network. Why create a new network when we can spend less time and less money improving what we have already got?

You want the dedicated bike lanes? Amsterdam style? Pay rego. Road vehicle traffic pays rego to basically pay for the cost of construction and maintenance of the roads – cyclists using the road based bike lanes have been getting a free ride (excuse the pun) on the road system for too long.

PigDog said :

I don’t think it is fair to compare the roads in those photos with Northbourne. Show me a six lane road that has these bike lanes, please.

This is a six lane road with separated lanes at this point near the city centre but not for the whole distance of the road……..

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=amsterdam,holland&hl=en&ll=52.359012,4.904923&spn=0.014703,0.037551&sll=-25.335448,135.745076&sspn=43.331499,76.904297&vpsrc=6&t=h&z=15&layer=c&cbll=52.358977,4.904781&panoid=mNnmyJgWoGMiNHMYgN8Tmg&cbp=12,257.64,,0,21.91

chewy14 said :

Jim Jones said :

chewy14 said :

Yeah, if only we had the population density of Amsterdam and everyone could ride or catch public transport everywhere.

Where are the cars meant to go?

You’ll never change anything for the better if you can’t accept change at all.

And you’ll never change anything for the better by assuming that things that work overseas in cities with completely different demographics will work here.
Forward planning is the key and unfortunately we’ve been failed by successive governments refusing to think beyond the current election cycle.
If I could ride a bike or catch public transport to work I’d be thrilled. Unfortunately the layout of our city prevents it.

Correct, Northbourne takes 1,000’s of cars through civic and across the lake where they are dispersed quite well by State circle, there are a 100 ways to ride into civic from the north without clogging up the only option that the cars have for traversing the city.

And while i’m at it why do we have pedestrian lights on c’wealth ave disrupting peak hour traffic for months for floriade when 100 metres down the road people can walk underneath the bridge and into the park.

I spent several days in Amsterdam last year. The bike lanes work, but by jingo, foreigners have to keep their wits about them. Not only are the vehicles coming from the wrong direction, but there are bikes – some of them quite large family affairs – and scooters on what we regarded as the footpath. Not just one or two, but a peak hour stream.

It’s a great way of moving people around. It works well – in Amsterdam, where the land is dead flat and the population density high. Even in the suburbs, it takes about as long to drive somewhere as bike it. In the centraal area, bikes are by far the most efficient way to travel.

Canberra, sprawling across the map, divided by ridgelines, is not the place for this sort of system.

I’m all in favour of more bikeways, but they should be dedicated to cyclists, away from roads and pedestrians as much as possible.

As a night cabbie, kangaroos and idiot cyclists in dark clothing and without lights are the two perils of the job that worry me most. Forget the drunks and crazies – I can handle them. It’s the things that jump or ride out in front of me without warning that give me the willies.

You get more cyclists on the streets, you’ll get more accidents.

It is important to compare like roads, Northbourne Ave is unusual, in that I mean ,to have a six lane road running through the centre of your city at high volumes, and you would be had pressed to find an equivalent in Holland. Copenhagen’s , Hans Christian Boulevard would be similar but is lower in speed particularly in the city centre and a mix of cycle tracks (Copenhagen style) and cycle lanes but then again only 5 in 10 Copenhageners rate their infrastructure as safe.

http://youtu.be/ZtX8qiC_rXE

Here is what Amsterdam used to look like in the 1970’s it wasn’t so much cycle friendly then and accidents and fatalities where much higher until they started implementing cycle infrastructure and restricting car use……

http://youtu.be/5AB3hCbH0s4

Jim Jones said :

chewy14 said :

Yeah, if only we had the population density of Amsterdam and everyone could ride or catch public transport everywhere.

Where are the cars meant to go?

You’ll never change anything for the better if you can’t accept change at all.

And you’ll never change anything for the better by assuming that things that work overseas in cities with completely different demographics will work here.
Forward planning is the key and unfortunately we’ve been failed by successive governments refusing to think beyond the current election cycle.
If I could ride a bike or catch public transport to work I’d be thrilled. Unfortunately the layout of our city prevents it.

Mr Gillespie said :

Looks better than the “slim, narrow strips” that separate cars from semi-on-road bike lanes like in Sydney.

Are you referring to the ones around Surry Hills, Woolloomooloo etc? I personally like them, but I’m not a rider myself so I can’t comment on their practicality.

I don’t think it is fair to compare the roads in those photos with Northbourne. Show me a six lane road that has these bike lanes, please.

chewy14 said :

Yeah, if only we had the population density of Amsterdam and everyone could ride or catch public transport everywhere.

Where are the cars meant to go?

You’ll never change anything for the better if you can’t accept change at all.

Yeah, if only we had the population density of Amsterdam and everyone could ride or catch public transport everywhere.

Where are the cars meant to go?

Looks better than the “slim, narrow strips” that separate cars from semi-on-road bike lanes like in Sydney.

It works brilliantly in Amsterdam and in other places in Europe. So sensible. Maybe we could import some brain cells from Holland and implant them in our politicians.

I like it.

The top one could easily work on Northbourne, either in the nature strip or the middle. Only on Northbourne IMO, I cycle in from the south & I think it is well catered for with the combination of off road paths & on road lanes.