Local cafe owner can’t handle the heat

mp2615 said :

@ #7 Tried Two before Ten ? Hobart Pl

+1. Been my local cafe of choice for a long time now. They’ve recently imported their own roaster, and do single origin coffee, which they recommend is best enjoyed as a short black. They have really friendly staff, and manage to get coffee out in good time, even when a rush is on.

Seriously though, the examples in that CT article were ridiculous. A guy in Fyshwick who didn’t realise how much work was involved in running a cafe. A pregnant woman who wants to return to China with her husband. These are not examples of too many cafes ruining the market!

As for Mr. Hehir-Nielsen, he can probably consider himself lucky that he’s in Deakin, and not City West. Within about a 250m radius of my building, I have a choice of at least a dozen cafes. I have no idea whether they’re all doing well, but in the last year or more, none of them have shut down, so things can’t be so bad. And many of these places are innovating, and bringing something new to Canberra – places like Two Before Ten investing in a roaster to make their own coffee blends – should this innovation be stifled by the regulation that this guy is suggesting?

I think this is less about regulation, and more about protectionism, so a business owner can just keep going on the same as always, never needing to adapt to the changing environment, safe in the knowledge that the competition is locked out.

And I’ve gotta say, that regulation hasn’t really resulted in any better post offices or newsagents. Instead of my parcels ending up at my local post office, they now end up at the Belconnen Business Centre, not available for pickup until the next day, and it’s not open on weekends. My local newsagent in the city sometimes runs out of the newspaper I want to buy by lunchtime. Who knows, perhaps the threat of competition would force them both to lift their game.

creative_canberran said :

Those cyclist packs must be bad ass if a cafe owner needs to put his larger bills in the safe prior to their arrival.

That mainly applied to my old work, where the till couldn’t have more than x hundred. Once you went over the value, you got a harassment message. It wouldn’t go away until you put the large notes in the safe. Even at the cafe, it might involve swapping coins for cash. You’d be pretty frustrated if the manager had to get change out of safe while you’re waiting for coffee right?

I-filed said :

2.0 said :

I-filed said :

Perhaps that particular flock of cyclists behaved rudely, leaving their bicycles in the way … wouldn’t put it past a bunch of cyclists to be obnoxio

us in any setting!

“grabs popcorn and sits back in his seat”

And yes, I’m one of those drivers who don’t stop for cyclists flouting the law against cycling across pedestrian crossings. I can’t stand cyclists! Hardly any of them obey the road laws – they think they are a law unto themselves. They should be registered, with plates, so they are reportable.

This fantasy land where road users are ‘reportable’ doesn’t exist.

Sorry 😛

I agree, what a whinger and time for a new career mate. Typical of the majority of service industry in Canberra. Sorry, really should use that tar brush! LOL re: Lonsdale Street Wallys ooops sorry again, Grinders. Head up the proverbial or what?!?!? For a great short black (or any coffee) and friiendly service, try Dejabrew on City Walk. Ask for a ristreto (??) a variant of sorts which they put me on to. Their baby-cinos are renowned due thought, time and effort and feeling put into them for the kids. It’s like you’re visiting their home. Great Coffee and nice operators! By the way, I only pay $3 in Civic for a regular coffee from any of the several ‘independents’ on / around City Walk. My regular also doesn’t charge extra for Soy, Oat or Rice milk. I wouldn’t drink ‘chains’ rubbish and pay a premium for it.

Sorry OP, this guy makes a valid point about there being way too much cafe space in town and how it effects the value of his business, and the rest of the article seems to support this, and you tear him to shreds thinking he needs ‘help’ to operate his cafe and that if his cafe was more like x,y, or z then he’d be ok?? Please…
I read the article and he never attacked other thriving cafes, he merely pointed out (correctly) that there are cafes going up in every new building in town (interestingly,some of those are local and commonwealth government tendered) and it is driving the value of the market down and effecting our retail sector. He is asking for ‘help’ from the government to protect the value of his investment. Sounds ok to me.
Good on him for speaking up.

Henry82 said :

creative_canberran said :

Point is if he get’s the advance notice, what’s he really going to do anyway?

Have all the coffee cups stacked ready to go (in places you wouldn’t normally have stacked), have the fridge (and shelves) packed to capacity? remove large denominations from the till and put in the safe? check that “popular” items are stacked? Don’t begin mopping the floors/cleaning windows? organise tables and chairs to cater for the numbers? wash any implements that may need to be used during the rush, that you only have a few of? Unpack items from dishwasher, so he can load in stuff straight away? Clean the machine?

Those cyclist packs must be bad ass if a cafe owner needs to put his larger bills in the safe prior to their arrival.

creative_canberran said :

Point is if he get’s the advance notice, what’s he really going to do anyway?

Have all the coffee cups stacked ready to go (in places you wouldn’t normally have stacked), have the fridge (and shelves) packed to capacity? remove large denominations from the till and put in the safe? check that “popular” items are stacked? Don’t begin mopping the floors/cleaning windows? organise tables and chairs to cater for the numbers? wash any implements that may need to be used during the rush, that you only have a few of? Unpack items from dishwasher, so he can load in stuff straight away? Clean the machine?

I just love the reference in this article to the establishment in Dickson that is trying to sell the business for $100k – there is no way that the business is worth that much as they and the previous owner totally destroyed the good business and reputation that existed with the two owners prior to them. I am certain that they did no market research into what would be different and popular in that area, offered items that the local crowd could get better elsewhere and then shut up shop without notice and no sign on the door for the few customers that they may have had. The new owner would have to build the place up from scratch and all they get is the cabinets and fit out.

I think his suggestion of some regulation is a good one – but it is private enterprise and as tough as it is, caveat emptor if you choose to get into that type of business.

“.Point is if he get’s the advance notice, what’s he really going to do anyway? Is he going to call in some casual and pay them $18 to serve one group whose coffees may only come to $30-40?”

FWA won’t allow this anymore. He has to pay the worker for a minimum of 3 hours + outrageous penalty rates. Soon there won’t be any coffee shops operating at weekends and public holidays. Most people commenting on this matter are hung up on coffee beans and lycra when the owner was saying how hard it is to run a business and he cited examples that made it even more difficult.

Henry82 said :

creative_canberran said :

Just how quickly can he call in the extra staff, …? … just how quickly can he order stock in?

like i said before:

Henry82 said :

As for the “advanced notice”; you could always give him a call and ask.

I’m sure if you were that concerned about it, you’d give him a polite call and ask. Are you even a cyclist? Have you even been to this place? Is there a reason behind the hate? We’ve already found out half the article has been quoted out of context, so i’m going to cut him some slack.

Point is if he get’s the advance notice, what’s he really going to do anyway? Is he going to call in some casual and pay them $18 to serve one group whose coffees may only come to $30-40?

I was in Group7 one morning around 8:30am and more than 20 public servants came in and lined up at once, adding to about 20 already waiting for orders. Should they have called first? Should they have asked if it’s okay for 20 of them to come buy and get takeaways then get told to wait an hour until more staff come on? No, and judging by the efficiency of the staff (one on cash, one on extraction, one on milk and one serving) – they had no trouble coping.

If he’s having trouble ordering stock and coping with customers, then he’s obviously under resourced and lacking experience. It’s for him to exercise self improvement and reassess his business plan – not attack other thriving cafes by calling for government to regulate.

Mysteryman said :

puggy said :

Brandi said :

…Roasters…all great and all welcome cyclists.

Well they seem to welcome anyone willing to put up with sitting on bare upturned milk crates to drink average coffee made and served by indifferent hipster student trash. The fit out in the place is great (but dime a dozen anywhere but Canberra) but the coffee isn’t what it’s cracked up to me and the service doesn’t come with a smile.

I agree with your assessment of their coffee and service. I prefer to call the place “Lonsdale Street Hipsters”, or “Hipster Street Roasters”. I also quietly laugh at the people paying money to sit on upturned milk crates like hobos.

Which just goes to show how popular the coffee is (despite your assessment of it not being very good (personally, I love the stuff and I’m pretty fussy)). Also, it’s one of the more reasonably priced coffee shops (I believe it’s only $3 for a standard coffee). I don’t pay that money in order to sit down (I can do that at home for free). I pay for the coffee. And given the volume of people who go there (hence the milk crates) I think they churn the coffees out pretty quickly too.

As for the article itself, I don’t really understand the point… Sometimes running a small business is stressful and a lot of work… And? If you’re extremely busy and barely have time to go to the bathroom, isn’t that what you’re setting out to achieve? Isn’t a prime goal of a business to make a profit?
Once you’re set up well, hire some staff and managers you trust and give yourself a day or two off a week. Or buy in with someone else, or a group of people.
I wouldn’t assume that owning a business is easy. But I also know that self-employment, for a lot of people, is a dream.

creative_canberran said :

Just how quickly can he call in the extra staff, …? … just how quickly can he order stock in?

like i said before:

Henry82 said :

As for the “advanced notice”; you could always give him a call and ask.

I’m sure if you were that concerned about it, you’d give him a polite call and ask. Are you even a cyclist? Have you even been to this place? Is there a reason behind the hate? We’ve already found out half the article has been quoted out of context, so i’m going to cut him some slack.

creative_canberran said :

If a cafe is run properly, then they get used to patterns and predict demand, and do their best to cope with surges.

The article was about the difficulties of running a business, hes made an off hand comment about coping with surges. They’ve pulled his comment out of context and made him look like a tool. My old “retail” job had surges (some of which you just cant predict), its difficult, you try your best. That’s all his comment was about.

anyway, what’s so hard about saying “oh hey, we are thinking of making this a regular stop on our Saturday morning ride”? It’s not a contract, it’s just a polite message. I don’t agree with parts of the article, i think hes got buckley’s chance of coffee regulation, but they’ve given him the column inches.

2.0 said :

I-filed said :

Perhaps that particular flock of cyclists behaved rudely, leaving their bicycles in the way … wouldn’t put it past a bunch of cyclists to be obnoxious in any setting!

“grabs popcorn and sits back in his seat”

And yes, I’m one of those drivers who don’t stop for cyclists flouting the law against cycling across pedestrian crossings. I can’t stand cyclists! Hardly any of them obey the road laws – they think they are a law unto themselves. They should be registered, with plates, so they are reportable.

Unbelievable.

creative_canberran said :

Henry82 said :

Hes saying he would prefer it if large groups let him know in advance, so he can cater better to their needs. I don’t think its a lot to ask if you want good service. If you don’t call, that fine, but you would need to wait longer.

Just how quickly can he call in the extra staff, and would he really call in and pay extra staff just for a group of cyclists (or anyone) even if they called? As the article says and is well known, hospitality is low margin, high turnover. And if one of his complaints is knowing how much stock to have, just how quickly can he order stock in?

How many people honestly plan their next cup of coffee hours ahead of time, much less a day ahead?
You do for a dinner out, but coffee and a snack? Let’s say a group is cycling around the lake and called earlier for 11am. They see something interesting along the way and take a detour, or they ride slower because it’s a particularly hot day. Does he expect them to call again and say they’ll be there at 12 instead? Does he get angry because people turn up late or not at all after calling and he has put extra staff on when they weren’t needed? What if they ride fast and turn up early, does he make them wait until 11?

If a cafe is run properly, then they get used to patterns and predict demand, and do their best to cope with surges. Judging by the reviews of his cafe, he’s penny pinching on staff constantly and wants government to step in to make sure people go to his business rather than competitors, which is a joke when I can go to Lonsdale or Kingston on a Saturday morning and see cafes buzzing with heaps of staff on.

I get it, Basil Fawlty.
Without all these customers we’d be able to run this business properly.

Henry82 said :

Hes saying he would prefer it if large groups let him know in advance, so he can cater better to their needs. I don’t think its a lot to ask if you want good service. If you don’t call, that fine, but you would need to wait longer.

Just how quickly can he call in the extra staff, and would he really call in and pay extra staff just for a group of cyclists (or anyone) even if they called? As the article says and is well known, hospitality is low margin, high turnover. And if one of his complaints is knowing how much stock to have, just how quickly can he order stock in?

How many people honestly plan their next cup of coffee hours ahead of time, much less a day ahead?
You do for a dinner out, but coffee and a snack? Let’s say a group is cycling around the lake and called earlier for 11am. They see something interesting along the way and take a detour, or they ride slower because it’s a particularly hot day. Does he expect them to call again and say they’ll be there at 12 instead? Does he get angry because people turn up late or not at all after calling and he has put extra staff on when they weren’t needed? What if they ride fast and turn up early, does he make them wait until 11?

If a cafe is run properly, then they get used to patterns and predict demand, and do their best to cope with surges. Judging by the reviews of his cafe, he’s penny pinching on staff constantly and wants government to step in to make sure people go to his business rather than competitors, which is a joke when I can go to Lonsdale or Kingston on a Saturday morning and see cafes buzzing with heaps of staff on.

Regulation = communism.

Hey Daryl, what has happened? didn’t Terry Snow and suits from the House used to go out of their way to get a cup from you? I never minded travelling or paying a little more for a good cup.
What happened to Al the barista?

creative_canberran said :

I mean what he’s really saying is he expects groups to call ahead for coffee, assumedly so he can get extra staff on. So how much notice does he want?

Hes saying he would prefer it if large groups let him know in advance, so he can cater better to their needs. I don’t think its a lot to ask if you want good service. If you don’t call, that fine, but you would need to wait longer.

Last year, I ordered 60+ pizzas from dominos, i called a few days ahead and spoke to the manager. He was *really* pleased i called, otherwise 60 pizza requests spew out of the machine 20 minutes before the pizza is due.

As for the “advanced notice”; you could always give him a call and ask. I think we’ve all been pretty quick to sharpen the pitchforks.

Part of Daryl’s amending comment from CT:

“I was commenting on staffing and stock levels being hard to predict, due to the random nature of this type of business. that statement finished with “and of course I am, however sometimes it can be quite a challenge.”

Which means his full comment according to him was:

“A cycling group will arrive with 20 people. They don’t bother letting you know, they think they’ll turn up and you will be happy for the business, and of course I am, however sometimes it can be quite a challenge.”

Nope, I’m still getting winger even with his amendment.

I mean what he’s really saying is he expects groups to call ahead for coffee, assumedly so he can get extra staff on. So how much notice does he want? Does he really want cyclists (or any group) to call the day before, or hours in advance to give enough time for some poor casual to be called in out of the blue just to serve one group?

And that still doesn’t negate his comment about the need to regulate new coffee shops, essentially meaning he wants any competition to his business artificially removed.

Al Yeganeh anyone?

I-filed said :

Perhaps that particular flock of cyclists behaved rudely, leaving their bicycles in the way … wouldn’t put it past a bunch of cyclists to be obnoxious in any setting!

You need someone to bag now that being racist isn’t cool anymore…

The $42 a week on coffee per household in Canberra cited in the article is interesting. I drink more than that myself, but it’s a lot of money even at that level isn’t it? More evidence for the people who say we’re all spoilt. I think that my household would quite often spend $100 per week, which is $400 per month, or $4800 a year! That’s two tickets to Europe. Or probably more than all our utilities bills.

I wonder how many people spending this much, which is not hideously unusual, I would think, (a) whinge about their finances and/or (b) can’t possibly afford to sponsor a kid overseas (that costs about as much per month as the average weekly ACT coffee spend).

I’ll have another coffee and think about it.

The cyclists were probably in a hurry because they were on part of a time trial that required them to speed along shared cycle/pedestrian paths and broadcast their dominance amongst all this around them.

+1 Harvest – best coffee I have ever had – and I only drink it during the week. I’m a tea person otherwise.

I-filed said :

Perhaps that particular flock of cyclists behaved rudely, leaving their bicycles in the way … wouldn’t put it past a bunch of cyclists to be obnoxious in any setting!

“grabs popcorn and sits back in his seat”

Perhaps that particular flock of cyclists behaved rudely, leaving their bicycles in the way … wouldn’t put it past a bunch of cyclists to be obnoxious in any setting!

tidalik said :

If you read through the comments on the article you’ll see that Daryl clarified the cyclist remark.

I see it now, and that pretty much confirms my suspicion of what he actually meant. Nice one, CT.

bitzermaloney said :

He has a valid point, in that it seems every new development has a “cafe”. That said, there are very few places that serve a decent coffee at a reasonable price.

I don’t really see the issue here, or why it needs regulation. Competition is good, and if they’re crap cafes – then customers will be drawn to the good ones.

As for the cyclists comment, hes probably going to be annoyed if they did tell him they were coming, and then they were delayed. The cyclists just have to be aware they are a big group, and things take time. The owner has to learn not to get so upset.

puggy said :

Brandi said :

…Roasters…all great and all welcome cyclists.

Well they seem to welcome anyone willing to put up with sitting on bare upturned milk crates to drink average coffee made and served by indifferent hipster student trash. The fit out in the place is great (but dime a dozen anywhere but Canberra) but the coffee isn’t what it’s cracked up to me and the service doesn’t come with a smile.

I agree with your assessment of their coffee and service. I prefer to call the place “Lonsdale Street Hipsters”, or “Hipster Street Roasters”. I also quietly laugh at the people paying money to sit on upturned milk crates like hobos.

Brandi said :

…Roasters…all great and all welcome cyclists.

Well they seem to welcome anyone willing to put up with sitting on bare upturned milk crates to drink average coffee made and served by indifferent hipster student trash. The fit out in the place is great (but dime a dozen anywhere but Canberra) but the coffee isn’t what it’s cracked up to me and the service doesn’t come with a smile.

Tonic, Roasters, Harvest, 2 Before 10 … all great and all welcome cyclists. I suspect these cafes are so confident in their abilities that they’d even welcome Rat Patrol. Bring on the competition and let the chips fall where they may.

The cyclist comment sounded harsh and I considered it was taken out of context and/or he might have a minor point on the difficulty of catering for groups. But so what? The bottom line is it’s a cafe and you need to prepared to crank out your main product without notice.

I don’t dispute that running a cafe is hard work. My mate running Fish Shack has worked 7 days a week since they opened earlier this year. Personally I couldn’t do it – but he deserves every success working that hard. Try the swordfish burger!!

Interesting point is that Double Shot actually sponsor one of Canberra’s Road Racing teams

Very interesting… there are 12 riders on the team roster. I wonder if the sponsor is pi$$ed off if Team Quon team turns up with more than half a dozen friends?

Canberra coffee and service: angry you came, looking blankly at the coffee machine for half a minute like they’ve never made a coffee before, then presuming that your order is wrong and making something different. Love this city – not!

If you read through the comments on the article you’ll see that Daryl clarified the cyclist remark.

Interesting point is that Double Shot actually sponsor one of Canberra’s Road Racing teams.

http://www.act.cycling.org.au/?ID=37365

As for a short black, 1 vote for Two before Ten. The boys know their stuff.

poetix said :

I hereby volunteer to offer my services as Inspector of Coffee. If it involves far too much time sitting around in cafes, there are good *grounds* for my appointment. (Insert feeble laughter for bad joke now.)

As long as it has good gates and table service!

He has a valid point, in that it seems every new development has a “cafe”. That said, there are very few places that serve a decent coffee at a reasonable price (eg. Harvest).

There are too many places that think they know what they’re doing but burn the crap out of the beans and/or the milk and consequently leaves you with a bitter after taste (both physically and metephorically).

I hereby volunteer to offer my services as Inspector of Coffee. If it involves far too much time sitting around in cafes, there are good *grounds* for my appointment. (Insert feeble laughter for bad joke now.)

Erg0 said :

I strongly suspect that the cyclist quote has been pulled way out of context in an effort to make the guy look like a whinger. It just doesn’t fit in with the flow of the article.

”’A cycling group will arrive with 20 people. They don’t bother letting you know, they think they’ll turn up and you will be happy for the business,” he said.’

Yep, the CT have been watching RA! They know any mention of cyclists is likely to get lots of attention! Hahaha.

Seriously, if JB removed all the post relating to cycling/motorist ‘arguments’ off RA, he’d lose about 50% of all previous RA discussions! Just this week, a post about a park and ride in Mawson, once again, turned into an inevitable ‘discussion’ about who should pay for roads, and why bikes should be registered?!?! I wonder if almost any topic on RA is less than 6 degrees of separation from that argument? Too funny!

Solidarity said :

Who makes a good short black in this town?

I’ve tried all the ones that RiotACT raves about and while good, nothing really stands out…

A short black really comes down to the bean, and the roast, and not so much to preperation of the drink, due to this, it can be quite an individual thing.

If you have somwhere in mind outside of canberra that makes a short black you really like, find out who they get their coffee from, as long as it’s not roasted on the site, or by a small scale roaster (sadly, there is a good chance it may be) then you should be able to find out if it is distributed in canberra, and who has it, then you might have a bit more luck.

@ #7 Tried Two before Ten ? Hobart Pl

I think it’s pretty laughable that we’ve become such a bunch of coffee snobs anyway.

I once had the notion that I should buy a coffee shop in Canberra but after consulatation with previous owners I was told “you will be happy twice if you buy a coffee shop in Canberra, the day you buy it and the day you sell it”
A lot of office customers who have got sick of paying $4.50 a cup at the local coffee shop are buying new instant coffee machines that take the sachet which tastes the same and works out about one third of the price.
With all the government regulations and now the jackboot unions to contend with, who needs to be in small business anyway?

Who makes a good short black in this town?

I’ve tried all the ones that RiotACT raves about and while good, nothing really stands out…

Oh I couldn’t even be bothered reading the article when I saw it in the paper – was it front page? Amazing.
Regulation – what a joke. Outside Dept of Infrastructure there are at least 3 coffee shops in very close proximity and they all seem to do amazingly well. Good coffee and friendly staff go a long way.
I will now add that my favourite coffee shop is a chain *cringes* – as they can do coffee the way I like it, which is iced with nothing but coffee, ice and milk.

Sure, regulate the coffee shops. But start with their prices first. No more paying 25% more than the rest of the country.

Honestly though, it’s a stupid idea. If a business can’t survive on it’s own then it shouldn’t survive. Simple. I’ve been the the café in question twice and both times it was garbage. Slow service, average food. Perhaps if the proprietor picked up his game he’d have less to worry about.

I strongly suspect that the cyclist quote has been pulled way out of context in an effort to make the guy look like a whinger. It just doesn’t fit in with the flow of the article.

I vote for regulation if it regulates the quality of the coffee and nothing else.

Were the cyclists in the group wearing lycra?

Oh yes I saw this article too, and mentally added Double Shot Deakin to the list of places not to stop for coffee while out on a ride. Thanks Daryl!

It always amazes me how some people will charge $4 or $5 for a bit of mass-produced ground bean and some boiling tap water, and then sell a slice or cake for twice the cost of the bakery next door.. and then have the gall to complain about how theyre doing it tough.

I particularly used to love when Centrelink had a little coffee shop setup selling $4 cups of coffee, given the fact that most people who would be buying them, would be living on centrelink income and should be spending their money more wisely than $4 on a drink. (Although I guess its comparable to the cost of a can of woodstock)