John Hargreaves loves me, this I know

2 issues here.

First, the Gov had to pay for all that machinery to sit still while the legal wrangling went on. At hourly rates per machine for months on end that equates to an enormous amount and is where the money needed to do the job correctly the first time really went.

Secondly one of my pet hates. Drivers in Canberra don’t know how to merge. There is no need to crawl if merging is done correctly. maybe slow down a bit but 2 can easily go into one at 40 – 60 km/h if it is not a race to cut off the other driver to save that extra 7 seconds by getting in front. I have driven in Toronto, New York, Los Angeles and they have far more traffic that keeps moving because they know how to merge …

caf said :

Sure, but spending less to build the GDE only to the size that was demonstrated to be necessary by the traffic projections was the “fiscally conservative” option. Spending up big on a gold-plated version might well have been a good idea, perhaps even going into debt to do so, but it’s the antithesis of fiscal conservatism.

Those projections were wrong. But I hear what you’re saying.

Sure, but spending less to build the GDE only to the size that was demonstrated to be necessary by the traffic projections was the “fiscally conservative” option. Spending up big on a gold-plated version might well have been a good idea, perhaps even going into debt to do so, but it’s the antithesis of fiscal conservatism.

caf said :

cmdwedge: Hold on, you want a “fiscally conservative” government, but wanted far more money spent on the GDE? I presume then that you are arguing for it to have been built as a toll road, perhaps privately funded?

Sorry mate, should have answered you earlier. I consider that spending money on infrastructure projects, which creates local jobs, to be money well invested. Same with tax cuts. Just wish that the Libs were actually all about what the say (fiscal conservatism) than what they preach (OMG ABORTION MURDERS BABIES). They’re a bunch of pricks who happen to be good with money. 🙂 Vs Labor, a bunch of good blokes who are terrible with money.

Very Busy said :

If there was not enough money to do the job right it should have been done in stages. Four lanes from Gungahlin to Belconnen Way would have been a much better solution. The expensive reworking of Glenloch Interchange could have been left until it was affordable.

I agree with you, but would have worked a different way, that is, do Glenloch Interchange right from the get go (it’s too critical to half of Canberra, Gungahlin->all other cities, Belco->all other cities). At the same time, expand Caswell Drive to dual lane, but stop at Belconnen Way. After that’s perfect, then dual-lane back to Gininderra Drive. And after that, dual back to Gungahlin Drive. Done.

Whilst the GDE is a joke, the Glenloch Interchange is THE critical point in the whole shebang. Broken Glenloch = broken traffic northsouth for ever.

Doing it right, in stages, is so damn obvious to everyone. Why not Hargreaves? Was he drunk when he put this together? *smirk*

Having just having had the displeasure of driving through the Gridlock interchange at rush (ha!) hour, I can honesty say that the person who designed it should be forced to stand by the side of the road, and apologise in person to each and every driver crawling along, through what must be the worse bit of road design ever.

Then they should be shot.

housebound said :

Perhaps the author should look at making a difference, small though it may be, and move closer to work or find a way to not add to the congestion on the GDE. that would be much more constructive than having a whinge on the Riot-Act.

Don’t you just love these people who sit pretty in their convenient lives and demand that the rest of us find the money to somehow afford a huge mortgage in the inner north or south just so we can relieve GDE congestion for everone else.

I believe you are missing the other opportunity which is, move work closer to home. Australia has sprawled out cities and thats a fact. It would take a huge effort (and heaps of co2) to rebuild as high density so realisticly it will never happen. There is no way to build enough roads so that everyone gets to work at maximum speed. Public transport isn’t an option because of our culture of freedom & flexability. The remaining solution is to limit job density across the city. force large employers to create jobs in the suburbs rather than just build another office block in the CBD. Does anyone know of a city somewhere in the world that already does this? and if so how well does it work?

And all those bridges at Glenloch Interchange will only ever be one lane. No forward thinking at all by these inept amatures.

If there was not enough money to do the job right it should have been done in stages. Four lanes from Gungahlin to Belconnen Way would have been a much better solution. The expensive reworking of Glenloch Interchange could have been left until it was affordable.

Ginenderra Drive and Belconnen Way both have three City bound lanes which could have handled the additional traffic from Gungahlin as an interim measure to alleviate the old problems suffered on the Barton Hwy by Gungaglin commuters.

Building in stages (proper budgeting) would not have resulted in expensive ripping up and rebuilding of this road.

It is not rocket science. I believe this issue alone was good enough reason not to vote for more of the same.

Iamspam is spot on the government simply didn’t have enough cash to create the entire 4 lanes the whole way which are required so it went with the cheap option and no doubt once there is some more cash in the kitty someone will “officially open” the new road and then people will be able to drive on it in about a year or 2 afterwards. It will probably has some pretty little “art” or rocks on the edges as well.

The real question is what the hell did everyone do in Gungahlin before the road was built? Why don’t you hop on Majura rd, down the federal highway/northbourne past watson and downer and dickson then off in through the city I’ve never really seen northbourne or limestone or even ginninderra chockers.

I swear traffic is heavier this year than last. Traffic down Northbourne is as busy 9-9:30am as it was 8-9am last year, in the last few days… I leave late and work late to avoid the traffic (and I’m a night person), but it seems everyone is doing the same thing…

Jivrashia – the GDE was always intended to be duplicated, and it was budgetary concerns rather than any compromise which led to the Barton-Belconnen Way stretch being single lane.

Now that the Caswell stretch is 4 lanes, it’s easy to see that duplicating the rest won’t achieve much – it’s the Glenloch merging which creates the bottlenecks. And that’s an issue for traffic engineers for which there aren’t really simple answers. Unless of course we wanted to build a M4/M7 style interchange, which would easily be another $100m.

if you leave early enough, you avoid most of the traffic.

i leave south tuggers just before 7 and am in braddon by 20 past.

if i leave home 10-20 minutes later, it can take twice as long.

Walter Burley Griffin did not design Canberra for light rail. He designed a city of 30,000 around electric street cars and heavy rail.

Modern Canberra was designed around the car.

I suggest you all drop the personal abuse or I’ll be happy to start smiting with the banhammer.

Consider this a last warning for everyone on this thread.

JD,

You really are a tosser. No, really.

peterh: But just “duplicating the glenloch lanes” would only move the “form one lane” a few hundred metres up the road. If you don’t expand the exiting roads, then the traffic still has to merge down into fewer lanes.

To answer the OP’s question about GDE, and why is it so.

Well, I’m sure a lot of rioters would have suspected that the GDE seems to have been originally planned to be two lanes each way. Notice the bridge area – doesn’t it seem that there SHOULD be another bridge next to it?

The answer is, it’s a compromise between the ACT government and the residents near the O’Connor ridge. Residents protested that it will become too noisy, and the ACT government relented by reducing the lanes from the original two to one. Now, I won’t go into the logic, or lack thereof, of this decision. (If a 16 wheeler goes past the ridge at 3am in the morning, it’s still going to SOUND like a 16 wheeler going past regardless of the number of lanes)

Oh, and JD114 – line, hook, and sink. Good catch.

caf said :

cmdwedge: Hold on, you want a “fiscally conservative” government, but wanted far more money spent on the GDE? I presume then that you are arguing for it to have been built as a toll road, perhaps privately funded?

Back to the substantial issue at hand: if the rest of the GDE was four lanes all the way, wouldn’t that just further exacerbate the queues at Glenloch interchange? And if you were to alleviate that by, say, expanding Parkes Way and the Tuggeranong Parkway to six lanes, wouldn’t that just move the queues up to Commonwealth Avenue and Corranderk St?

they need to duplicate the glenloch lanes. but that would reduce it to a no go zone, and create even more delays whilst it was fixed.

personally, i would belt down barry drive, onto lady denman, cotter road and either back to the parkway or cut through curtin.

in fact, i do the reverse from time to time.

cmdwedge: Hold on, you want a “fiscally conservative” government, but wanted far more money spent on the GDE? I presume then that you are arguing for it to have been built as a toll road, perhaps privately funded?

Back to the substantial issue at hand: if the rest of the GDE was four lanes all the way, wouldn’t that just further exacerbate the queues at Glenloch interchange? And if you were to alleviate that by, say, expanding Parkes Way and the Tuggeranong Parkway to six lanes, wouldn’t that just move the queues up to Commonwealth Avenue and Corranderk St?

peterh said :

I have to say that i love the gde on a monday night, as i cruise from kambah to dickson for trivia night. and back again. 7pm it is pretty much dead. no traffic lights, just a straight run to ginninderra drive. I have encountered peak time, bit slower, but for most part, a lot faster than melbourne or sydney peak travel.

4 weeks ago, I’d say the same thing. Bit slower, but for the most part … But now that school is back, it’s a nightmare. My mate drove from his house in (which suburb is that next to Black Mountain?) to Phillip the other morning. Took him yonks. His GPS showed that in his little drive of basically Caswell Drive, Glenloch, then the Parkway, he had spent 5 full minutes at 0km/h. That is, not moving at all – a carpark. 5 minutes doesn’t sound like much but 5 full minutes of staring at the terrible mess of loose gravel in the drains on the side of the road on Caswell Drive? Bah!

I have to say that i love the gde on a monday night, as i cruise from kambah to dickson for trivia night. and back again. 7pm it is pretty much dead. no traffic lights, just a straight run to ginninderra drive. I have encountered peak time, bit slower, but for most part, a lot faster than melbourne or sydney peak travel.

JD114 said :

Oh dear…

Oh dear indeed, JD. Perhaps when you get a car, a career, a house and have children you might begin to understand how much of a cock you look right now.

“And the bit about the problem starting once school returned is a telling indictment of just how far from reality people in this country have moved. The practice of moving perfectly healthy schoolkids around in cars tonear as well as far-off schools is a perverted”

Could it be that people base their holidays around their children? Kids aren’t at school, so parents stay home, or go on holiday, etc, etc. Peak hour traffic around these times decreases..

“Perhaps the author should look at making a difference, small though it may be, and move closer to work”

Wow, Has it not been taken into consideration the multitude of scenarios that mean the distance between home and work is not optimal, or even to your standards? People do change places of work whether that be by choice or not. Cost of housing in the area? Should we have to uproot ourselves when such changes occur, furthermore becoming attached to our occupations?

“idiotic lifestyle of living in a far north suburb ”
Where do you propose we live then, no really? pray tell. We can’t all live in the inner city. What do you suggest we do so we’re not idiots destroying the planet? ~14Km from one of the most Northern Suburbs in Gungahlin to the city is not that far at all..

For what its worth JD114, I too live in Ngunnawal and work just outside civic. More often than not, I ride, it takes me 20-30 minutes by bike, and about the sameif I am to drive in peak hour.

I am not the quickest cyclist, and to me, it speaks volumes about how badly the GDE was executed..

Housebound

Its easy for JD – I think he still lives with Mummy and Daddy.

Perhaps the author should look at making a difference, small though it may be, and move closer to work or find a way to not add to the congestion on the GDE. that would be much more constructive than having a whinge on the Riot-Act.

Don’t you just love these people who sit pretty in their convenient lives and demand that the rest of us find the money to somehow afford a huge mortgage in the inner north or south just so we can relieve GDE congestion for everone else.

JD114 said :

Oh dear, another car-using driver complaining about traffic delays. Entirely symptomatic of a society unwilling and unable to make even the slightest effort to reduce our environmental impact. And the bit about the problem starting once school returned is a telling indictment of just how far from reality people in this country have moved. The practice of moving perfectly healthy schoolkids around in cars tonear as well as far-off schools is a perverted luxury that is hastening the headlong lemming-like plunge towards our collective come-uppance, ie a spot of bother with the world’s climate.

Nothing that is said or done will in any way stop people from the idiotic lifestyle of living in a far north suburb and finding they have to travel umpteen kilometres across town to work or play. Nothing will stop every man woman and child assuming the right to use as much of the earth’s resources as they can afford, because individually their contribution is miniscule against the big picture.

Perhaps the author should look at making a difference, small though it may be, and move closer to work or find a way to not add to the congestion on the GDE. that would be much more constructive than having a whinge on the Riot-Act.

Probably should have addressed everything you said, shouldn’t I? Firstly, I sold my XR6 Turbo Falcon and bought a motorbike so as to save on petrol and to help the environment. My wife drives a Honda Accord Euro, and our second car is a Honda Jazz (which uses 2/5th of fkall petrol). We changed all of our globes to those low-power ones, and we religiously recycle. Now we’re not perfect but I do think that we’re somewhat conscious of the impact that having a V8 Berlina does to the environment. 😉

We bought a place in Ngunnawal because we could afford it (a townhouse), we thought that there was a chance that our kids wouldn’t grow up to be meth-addicts, and because my wife works in Bruce. I am a contractor and work in different areas, however, I worked in Civic when we bought the place.

Calling Ngunnawal a far-away north suburb is just stupid. It’s all of 12, 15km from Civic! That’s called ‘inner suburbs’ in Melbourne. When everything is working smoothly, one can get from Gungahlin to Civic in 15 minutes.

I’m trying my best not to get onto a soapbox but we bought what we could afford, where we could afford. This problem with the GDE CAN be fixed and shouldn’t have been cocked up in the first place. It’s an arterial road and should have been dual lane to begin with, with plans to make it 3 lanes each way in the future. Instead, we got an active alcoholic planning the thing like it’ll be some hilarious joke to his Labor mates. He was quoted in a local paper saying something along the lines of ‘I built a link between Gungahlin and the city, no more, no less’. The guy is a toss and should be fired. Instead, Canberra re-elects him. The Libs weren’t a great choice either but god damn how did Labor win so easily? We need a third party, socially progressive like Labor, and fiscally conservative like the Libs. 🙁

As much as I’d like to disagree (I never grew out of loving cars!), JD is quite right. There were all manner of bespectacled gurus on Lateline on Monday night blaming the Victorian bushfires (or at least their ferocity) on just this issue.

Our Walter planned a light rail system that ran on renewable energy for us back in the 20s, but our Federal caretakers thought it rather too extravagant. Apparently little Johnny agrees with them. Maybe the old fart was one of the Federal members who made the decision 80 or 90 years ago…

JD

There are now 40,000 people in Gungahlin and poor public transport options. On top of that, there are very few employment opportunities within the district for people to work locally that are not retail. If a Commonwealth or ACT Gov dept moved 1000 or 5000 jobs to the area, it would also help ‘prop up’ the struggling small businesses in the area.

I carpool with my wife to Civic and Barton. We drop off our 18 month old at local daycare which opens at 7:30. If we can get the wee one ready to drop off by then, we can be at work at 8. Lately she has slept in so its 7:45 by the time we drop her off. It is now taking 45minutes to an hour to get in to the offices.

If there was a way we could use public transport to drop off the kiddie that would drop my now heavily pregnant wife in the city, then take me to my place of work, we would consider using it. But there isn’t, so taking a single car is our option.

Things are not quite as obvious as they seem – and the GDE in its current form is a non-functioning joke.

From your holier than though high ground, how do you suppose we manage our daily affairs as you are some sort of expert on everything.

I’d take public transport, but the only form of public transport here is the bus. Which has to travel on the same damn road. I frequently used the trains and trams in Melbourne, I wish we had something besides the damn unreliable bus system here.

Oh dear, another car-using driver complaining about traffic delays. Entirely symptomatic of a society unwilling and unable to make even the slightest effort to reduce our environmental impact. And the bit about the problem starting once school returned is a telling indictment of just how far from reality people in this country have moved. The practice of moving perfectly healthy schoolkids around in cars tonear as well as far-off schools is a perverted luxury that is hastening the headlong lemming-like plunge towards our collective come-uppance, ie a spot of bother with the world’s climate.

Nothing that is said or done will in any way stop people from the idiotic lifestyle of living in a far north suburb and finding they have to travel umpteen kilometres across town to work or play. Nothing will stop every man woman and child assuming the right to use as much of the earth’s resources as they can afford, because individually their contribution is miniscule against the big picture.

Perhaps the author should look at making a difference, small though it may be, and move closer to work or find a way to not add to the congestion on the GDE. that would be much more constructive than having a whinge on the Riot-Act.

It was stupid planning (or lack of it) to build all those houses out in the middle of no where, and even more stupid for people to have bought them. Canberra needs to grow up (high quality high density), not out. I’m not talking about that rubbish high rise in Woden either.

It makes me laugh when I see the traffic on that road each morning as I avoid it.
I think to myself “self, a good 40% of those fools voted Stanhope back in, guess that’s karma for ya”
And I have a good old chuckle. Enjoy your car park, it will be like that for a good while longer.

p1 said :

I dare say you could get from Ngunnawal to Phillip in less than 75 minutes if you left at 7:30am and went via Civic.

This way might even be quicker.

I actually used to go via the airport, but that bit around Pialligo is now brutal deluxe. I’d still be in traffic right now and not posting on RA if I took that route! 🙂

Since you have two lanes from Caswell Dr, one lane from William Hovell Dr and one lane from Parkes Way all converging into the two soundbound lanes on the Tuggeranong Parkway, it seems inevitable that you will have lanes merging together.

I dare say you could get from Ngunnawal to Phillip in less than 75 minutes if you left at 7:30am and went via Civic.

This way might even be quicker.

At least people use it. The Sydney cross city tunnel cost a fortune and then you get charged a toll. So no one used it.

Once you get past Comm Ave Bridge, Adelaide Ave flows quite well and before 8am it should be pretty good anyway.

Therefore, I dare say you could get from Ngunnawal to Phillip in less than 75 minutes if you left at 7:30am and went via Civic.

I used to live in Nicholls while working in Fyshwick, so you’re getting no sympathy from me, haha.

solution: move