17 September 2008

Help get 'hoons' off the road

| skaboy12
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[First filed: September 16, 2008 @ 09:16]

Hey All,

We are starting a lobby group called Ten Thousand Fists. It has been born out of all the complaining about ‘hoon’ activity recently. We will be pushing the government and AFP/ACT Policing to assist us in finding somewhere for the ‘hoons’ to go, therefore getting them off the streets and still allowing them to do what they want to do. We are trying to fight for both sides of the argument.

They want to be ‘hoons’ and you want them off the road.

Trying to stamp them out in force obviously isn’t working too well, judging by the fact that there are more of them at every meet they have, despite the police crackdown.

We are not asking for a dragway to be built. That is a war that won’t be won in the short term. What we are asking for is initially access to the AFP driver training centre on Sutton Rd. This facility is built to handle this sort of activity and it is easily accessible. It is also safe for those participating and spectating.

We will then be pushing for a specific burnout pad. These facilities are low cost to maintain, easy to build and will only be used once or twice a fortnight which will help on noise. We have already raised $15,000 (in a week) to go towards building the facility and will be conducting fundraising events in the near future.

As we are trying to make this fair for all of Canberra we would love it if you could support us. We have created a Facebook Group (search for Ten Thousand Fists), and would like to invite everyone to join it. We will be holding public meetings and inviting the AFP Commissioner and several politicians. We will also be allowing all sides of the story to be heard.

We can be contacted at 10thousandfist (at) gmail.com or at http://www.new.facebook.com/group.php?gid=24687954445&ref=mf

Should we give hoons easier access to the Sutton Road skidpans?

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Legal masturbation for all!

This is not a perfect system, nothing is. However it is the most just and fair system for all as it is truly win/win.

..I think loosebrown has killed any chance of continuing sensible debate.

After seeing the logo, all I have to add is “Shake harder boy!”.

Loose Brown, you need to have a chat with me it seems 😛

No no – I am trying to fight for both sides of the argument.

mdme workalot9:50 am 18 Sep 08

Is there something you want to tell us Loose Brown? From your post, I’m going to take a guess and say you’re asking for permission to be a w*nker. No need, sweetheart – you’re there already.

We are starting a lobby group called Ten Thousand Fists. It has been born out of all the complaining about people masturbating in public recently. We will be pushing the government and AFP/ACT Policing to assist us in finding somewhere for the ‘public masturbators’ to go, therefore getting them off the streets and still allowing them to do what they want to do. We are trying to fight for both sides of the argument.

They want to be ‘public masturbators’ and you want them off the streets.

Trying to stamp them out in force obviously isn’t working too well, judging by the fact that there are more of them at every meet they have, despite the police crackdown.

We are not asking for a huge public masturbation arena to be built. That is a war that won’t be won in the short term. What we are asking for is initially access to a small, semi secluded place to indulge in public masturbation, legally.

mdme workalot9:31 am 18 Sep 08

Sorry Ant, my comment about whinging NIMBYs was not actually directed at you, and after re-reading my post I can see how it came across. The reason I chose that as an example is because of recent occurrences in my area where people have moved into the area and have now chosen to begin complaining about noise from activities that have been carried out in the area for the last 20 years. I find that highly objectionable because they were aware of the noise before they bought the property, so I don’t think they have any reason to complain. Buyer beware and all that.

tylersmayhem9:19 am 18 Sep 08

Shinyfd – Much of this money(approx $13.5k0 came from several large donations from several private members of the public, including myself, who want to see this succeed. The remainder of the money was raised at meets of several car clubs where people were willing to donate their spare change.

If only this money could go to a decent cause like cancer support groups or cancer research (I’m also sure the burning rubber and pollution cause by such anti-social activities contributed to this).

Any chance a certain percentage could go to non-selfish couses rather under a cloak of “it’s a win-win situation”, just to get your own way?! It’s a very thin disguise, and a bloody hard one to sell…to me anyway!

That argument will never work, mdme workalot. Being irritated because some people don’t want you to blast them in their homes with noisy engines is a much weaker arguing position that that of the “whining nimbys” who are being blasted by motorsports noise in their homes and gardens.

As for “addressing my points”, the main point is, I was a resident who was blasted with motorsports engine noise in my own home. calling me a “whining nimby” is not “addressing” that point. It’s just lame abuse.

mdme workalot8:41 am 18 Sep 08

Thanks Jakez and Vicepope, it’s so nice to see a polite discussion of the issue as opposed to namecalling and nastiness. I’m going to try and do some research on whether the availability of such facilities tends to increase illegal and dangerous behaviour on public roads, because I think until that is either proved or disproved we are not going to get anywhere. I will post with what I can find.

Ant – you should realise that ‘we’ (for want of a better term) are not going to go away either, and I think Jakez addressed your points earlier. I find whinging NIMBYs make my life unpleasant, but that is one of the consequences of living in such a varied and multicultural community. To that end, I am going to keep supporting efforts to give motor vehicle enthusiasts a safe and private facility to engage in motorsport activities in such a way that will minimise the effect on others.

Shinyfd – Much of this money(approx $13.5k0 came from several large donations from several private members of the public, including myself, who want to see this succeed. The remainder of the money was raised at meets of several car clubs where people were willing to donate their spare change.

A full proposal is being worked on at the moment, and will be released to the public shortly before our first public event. At the moment it is taking a while to get things running as we are all working on this is our spare time, while trying not to take too much time away from our families and hobbies.

As someone who was personally affected by teh old dragway, I applaud Vicepope’s words. These motorsports do affect other people. they are noisy. they attract people who have antisocial habits. They are unpleasant to be around. We’ll fight you because your activites make our lives unpleasant. You need to realise that we won’t go away, but we do wish you, and your stinky, noisy sports would. And we exert efforts to that end.

To skaboy12 at top
Who are “we” as in “we have raised $15,000 (in a week)”
Not meaning to demean your efforts, but that is a lot of cash – particularly in an election cycle.
That’s a couple of grand a day, plus change – just to attempt to send ding-bats to Sutton Rd.
What was your premise when asking people to donate this money?
Did you plod around neighborhoods that are “hoon affected” and ask for cash so they can live in peace? Did you go to car clubs? Did you advocate with the AFP for a grant for access to the Sutton centre,…….did you seek and obtain donations from businesses in Canberra? And your spiel to them was….?
Did you canvas Government to get basic reassurance that such a scheme could meet with approval before taking the money??
I’m not trying to be difficult at all – in fact, truth will win every time, but how did you manage to persuade Canberrans to part with $15,000 in a week for an “idea” that could maybe work or most likely not.

I’m sure that a factual account of the proposal,as presented,and the fundraising method would reassure all who wish for a solution to stupid nongs in the ‘burbs.

A factual, no nonsense answer to the above would give your cause much credibility.

VicePope said :

No-one, for example, has been killed or harmed by the smell of curry to my knowledge quote]

Mate you’d be surprised.

mdme workalot said :

Sorry for the double post – now I’m a 3-post nutbag 😛

Yeah get out

Jakez – thanks for a detailed response. We may have to agree to disagree, and I shall keep looking for a politician who represents my views. You have addressed, but not answered, my points. No-one, for example, has been killed or harmed by the smell of curry to my knowledge – and I wouldn’t want to think of the kind of combination that is released when motor vehicle parts are placed under stress. Why create an entire class of potential used cars that have suffered excessiv strain?

MdmeWorkalot – I agree that some proper research on this would be useful in the interest of informed debate. Impressionistically, there is the containment argument in your favour – that, with somewhere where it is legal to be silly, people won’t risk doing silly things in other places. On the other hand, this sort of program will teach a “skill” that some folk will try to use elsewhere and it will create, at some level, a confusion about whether lawfulness in one place equals propriety more generally. In other words, some people will get all fired up and keep going on the roads. As well, if the place is to avoid the problems of liability (and it’s ok for Jakez to say that he supports personal responsibility), it wll need a robust quality checking process for machine and driver and probably a pretty large insurance charge – in many years, I have not seen a sweeping indemnity clause that would work.

Plus, all the other problems – environmental, social, commercial etc – remain. It’s a bad idea, unless regulated to the point that no-one would do it.

You certainly are Mdme!

VicePope said :

The “consenting adults” argument works only in private relationships that have no effect on others.

VicePope, as I said if you can make a case then I will listen to it. I agree with the harm principle (narrowly defining harm to direct harm as one can see in On Liberty), and you will not find a stronger defender of property rights (including your own body) than myself. That said I think we need to take a closer look at your claims to see if they count, or even if they are true.I think some of them may be valid in the hypothetical, but not necessarily in this case.

1,

In this case, the rest of us will hear the noise, smell the fumes etc

Claims of smell and general annoyance cannot be considered to be a valid example of ‘harm’ as it renders Mill’s harm principle so broad as to be meaningless. I could say that I find the sound of you spewing forth your authoritarian viewpoints offensive. If we define harm to include indirect harm and subjective feelings, then one can claim that anything is harming them.

I find people that eat curry to smell bad, I find people that don’t shower to smell bad, in fact I find a lot of people smell bad (perhaps I’m a clean freak). I find these people to smell much worse than the smell of rubber. None of that however is a valid reason to advocate for some sort of coercive ban on curry, or non showering.

To address those points, we have zoning, and I don’t think the place would be near residential areas. Sutton Road is not in the middle of Kambah, it is out past RMC. I don’t think that in this case, your fears are valid.

be placed at risk by compromised vehicles (driven by excited people) on the road

I’ll echo mdme here and ask for some sort of pyschological (or other) evidence. Otherwise, this is just subjective opinion. Even if it were the case, the existence of a safe place to do motorsports would LESSEN the amount of this driving on regular roads, not increase it. We currently face the problem of having hoon driving on regular roads. THAT IS OUR REALITY NOW! This is a way to lessen that problem.

risk buying used cars that have been damaged through this kind of foolishness etc.

I think this point is just silly. Firstly, I’m not sure you can even make the case of some sort of hidden damage. Secondly, caveat emptor. We face risk throughout our lives and to be very frank, anyone who does not get an independent mechanic to look at a car before they buy it, is a bloody idiot and deserves what they get.

And we will probably wind up picking up the tab when someone errs in a burnout and runs through some people, or into a wall.

I am a big advocate of personal responsibility. People should be free to do as they please, but they must accept the consequences. To that end, we see that Government REMOVES personal responsibility. We have a health care system that incentivises stupid behaviour. I believe in a safetynet so that’s a burden that I think we should bare, however if we provide a legal avenue we will see that people will have to take personal responsibility.

Firstly, with regard to other people being injured on residential roads, WE HAVE THIS PROBLEM NOW! That is why we need a facility to get this behaviour off the residential roads and into a controlled environment. This will lessen that problem. For those that act the fool on residential roads, I absolutely believe THEY must pay the price, and our legal system needs to place a greater emphasis on restitution for harm to others. There are a number of consensual ways of achieving this (insurance) as well as integrating it into our criminal law.

Those who go to the racetrack/burnout facility must pay insurance and sign a waiver. They will have to pay the price for their activities.

Allowing consenting adults the freedom to do as they wish, setting up a system that ensures personal responsibility, and protecting property rights (including ones own body) allows us to live in a tolerant, pluralistic, and free society, while ensuring that people do not have to bear the brunt of those things that they have not had a contributing hand in.

This is not a perfect system, nothing is. However it is the most just and fair system for all as it is truly win/win.

mdme workalot2:54 pm 17 Sep 08

Sorry for the double post – now I’m a 3-post nutbag 😛

mdme workalot2:48 pm 17 Sep 08

Yes VicePope, but your points there merely echo those of people who want a place to engage in this kind of activity. People would be happy to do this so it doesn’t impede on anyone else’s right to enjoy themselves and their surroundings, but lobby groups prevent these facilities from existing. It ends up being a lose/lose situation.

As for the argument that these facilities promote risky behaviour on the roads, I really would like to see some research or definitive evidence that this is the case. Otherwise, I’m inclined to reject it as a subjective opinion.

mdme workalot2:48 pm 17 Sep 08

Yes VicePope, but your points there merely echo those of people who want a place to engage in this kind of activity. People would be happy to do this so it doesn’t impede on anyone else’s right to enjoy themselves and their surroundings, but lobby groups prevent these facilities from existing. It ends up being a lose/lose situation.

As for the argument that these facilities promote risky behaviour on the roads, I really would like to see some research or definitive evidence that this is the case. Otherwise, I’m inclined to reject it as a subjective opinion.

The “consenting adults” argument works only in private relationships that have no effect on others. In this case, the rest of us will hear the noise, smell the fumes etc, be placed at risk by compromised vehicles (driven by excited people) on the road, risk buying used cars that have been damaged through this kind of foolishness etc. And we will probably wind up picking up the tab when someone errs in a burnout and runs through some people, or into a wall. So, it’s not a matter purely for the consent of the participants.

Well I’m sure it won’t be too hard. The vast majority of candidates are arrogant authoritarians.

I never said that you aren’t entitled to your opinion, I’m merely echoing madameworkalots point and suggesting you don’t force your opinion on consenting adults. If you can point to some harm you will accrue beyond an elevation of your self righteous consternation, then you mAy have a case.

Jakez – yup. It’s called opinion. I consider my opinion on this is an informed one. I know that (a) these activities create a lot of noise, (b) these activities are associated with the discharge of some difficult pollutants, (c) these activities are all intrinsically useless, especially in the context of the future of fossil fuels, (d) these activities are likely to lead to some risk of injury or damage and (e) these activities can reasonably be argued to promote ill-mannered and dangerous behaviour on the public roads.

You may have your opinion, and I’m sure you have some logical basis for it; there are probably pollies around who support your position. I disagree with it, and I seek political representation by someone who shares my views.

Is this the same bunch of dudes that I spoke with about a new dragway at the Shannons auto show held at old government house 3 years ago and claimed and I quote, what a load of ####, will never ####### in Canberra and anyway we have our own race track, IE, the highway, unquote, great attitude, any wonder the jacks are down on you.
There are 2 groups of good people that have been working together for many, many months in the Capital to again establish motoring and motorsport rights that consecutive governments have abused.
As I said these people have been working BLOODY HARD and LONG at their personal expense and are certainly looking to have the goods but while other groups come along, which is your democratic right the government and that stupid bloody woman in Hackett look on it as fragmentation and the media eat up what they say.
I am old and I have fortuantely raced and or shown my vehicles all around this great country but I have NEVER EVER seen a place that diciplines of motorsport would prefer to shoot each other in the foot than support each other, quite frankly it is a shame, actually it is a bloody disgrace.

So basically because you are old and don’t like motorsport, you grant yourself the authority to tell other people what to do?

I don’t think that’s a satisfactory claim to power by any stretch of the imagination. Why don’t you just leave people alone and worry about matters that affect you?

Thanks for the responses – I’m a bit sad that no pollies have stuck their hands up. All I wanted, and it hasn’t happened.

Jakez – two reasons. First, I’m old enough to be the grandparent of pretty well everyone on the planet and fierce looking enough to do the hard bits of the task. Second, it’s pretty clear to me that anyone agitating in favour of horsepower-related meaningless activity cannot be an adult in many sense of the word. I made the comment because the response I was anticipating was similar to that received by a parent imposing limits, not because I am such a parent in relation to the lovers of what is laugghingly called “motor sport”.

TylersMayhem – thanks.

MdmeWorkalot – idiot vehicular behaviour (eg burnouts, drag racing) is illegal because it’s offensive (noise and emissions) and can be dangerous. Making it legal would stop it from being criminal, but would not make it inoffensive or completely safe. There are previous threads where there is discussion of whether a regulated environment would alleviate or aggravate the problem elsewhere.

FelixTheCat – yes, I know what a burnout is. It is an activity that makes a great deal of pointless noise while placing excessive stress on vehicle components, so that their failure is more likely, at the time or later. If you want to see a burnout, there are a few websites where those enthusiasts who have both a video camera and a friend to operate it have displayed their exploits.

P1 – agree that Floriade is a waste of time and effort, as well as a great deal of public money. Not convinced by the claims of net economic benefit (any more than I am for Summernats).

FelixTheCat – lots of things are dangerous (as any examination of workers’ comp cases will reveal). But most of them aren’t quite as pointless and offensive and dangerous to others as idiot vehcular behaviour.

The thing is though VicePope, who gave you the authority to be other adults parent?

tylersmayhem9:14 am 17 Sep 08

I really cannot disagree with any comment made by VicePope on this thread. Well said!

Hoons, or car enthusiasts need to keep it at the forefront of their mind that ANY reckless driving is ILLEGAL! So regardless of what you like or enjoy doing, if is is reckless driving, it’s breaking the law and it’s not allowed – period.

I think if we foster this behavior by supporting and providing an area for hoons to “have fun” and break the law, it just reflects an attitude by the general public as acceptance of dickhead behavior.

I have an idea for skaboy12 and his posse. Save you money, equip your cars with surveillance equipment and drive around capturing these hoons and report them to the cops (like was on A Current Affair the other week). If I was shown some stats that this was reducing the problem, I;d happily chip in a few bob to support your cause. Unfortunately you won’t be getting any of my funding to pay for a bunch of groncks to have fun on my coin.

Just to clear up a few things:

The Sutton Road complex use to be a Police complex. It is no longer owned by the Police (although they do still use it) and instead operates as a public driver training venue. http://www.suttonroad.com.au for more info. This is the complex that has a large flat asphalt area, a track on the hill, and the skidpan.

The Police now have their own complex on Majura Road. There is no skidpan out there, just a large asphalt area and some tracks. You will not get access to those.

If you want access to the skidpan, asphalt or track on Sutton Road the easiest and most appropriate way for your group would be to contact http://www.fifthgear.com.au . They hold public and private skidpan days, as well as defensive, advanced and performance driver training. They also hold their own insurance, no need to get it yourself. I’ve been on a few of their courses and skidpan days and they are awesome, very well run, very fun, and you learn a hell of a lot.

mdme workalot8:46 am 17 Sep 08

I’m not going to yell at you Vicepope – I disagree with you, but I respect your opinion.

There are numerous hobbies and pastimes I dislike – dirt-biking, horse riding, hunting to name a few. However I certainly appreciate that people like different things and just because I dislike it does not mean that it is wrong. Cars are generally one of the largest investments people will make in their lives, so it stands to reason that people take pride in it and enjoy exploring what they can do with it – kind of like renovating houses and developing backyards. I know for me, I spend more time in my vehicle than at home or anywhere else with the exception of work, so I much rather driving something nice that makes a statement, as opposed to something that gets me from a to b. This may be different if I only drove for 20 minutes a day.

While I certainly understand that you believe the majority of ‘hoons’ endanger others on the road, I strongly disagree. As a matter of fact (and I’m making a huge generalisation here) I submit that it is not ‘hoons’ as such behaving like idiots, but young blokes who’ve only held a licence for less than 3 years. As most of you would be aware, increased risk-taking by this demographic is supported by road accident statistics. Unfortunately, this generation have parents who are too scared to say no to them, and these same parents quite happily go out and spend $40K on a hotted-up vehicle for them, whereas for the older generations they generally had to scrimp and save to buy an old Datsun for $500. In my opinion, the difference is not the vehicle itself, it is the respect the driver holds for that vehicle, and the consequences of damaging it. If I had crashed my bomb that I bought myself, I would have been without a car until I could afford to fix it. If I crash the beast my parents bought for me, I’d ask them to fix it for me and oh yeah, I’m borrowing your car in the meantime. Does that make sense?

It is unfortunate that genuine car enthusiasts get tarred with the same brush as idiots who happen to have nice cars. I don’t know what the solution is though…

Felix the Cat6:52 am 17 Sep 08

fabforty said :

Felix the Cat said :

VicePope – while I tend to agree that burnouts and the like are stupid but if done under controlled conditions such as Summernats or SDTC the risk is minimised. No more risk than say rock climbing, abseiling or numerous other ‘sports’ or ‘activities’.

I think there are much bigger and much more important issues for the politicians to attend to rather than banning dragways and Summernats.

How about lowering the road toll ?

People rock climbing and abseiling only put themselves in danger – they don’t kill others.

Agreed that lowering the road toll is a worthy cause but I would suggest that there are very few if any deaths from people doing burnouts. Street racing sure but burnouts unlikely (do you know what a burnout is?). Most accidents (fatal or otherwise) would be caused I would think by a general lack of skill and ability to drive a car rather than hoon behaviour. The licencing system is a joke and is somewhat to blame for the road toll but that is a whole new topic, best left for another day.

Rock climbing and abseiling can endanger other people – the rescuers that that risk their lives to help when things go wrong. Even bushwalking can have dire consequences as a Canberra woman recently found out when she went for a 3 hour walk and ended up being lost for 3 days. Fortunately there was a happy ending and she was found with no serious injury but there was a lot of resources thrown at the search and it was just good luck in the end that there wasn’t a tragic outcome.

Maybe we should ban all forms of motorsport because something might go wrong and someone might get hurt or killed. There’s a million other sports and activities that are just as or even more dangerous, the kids are going to do it regardless so why not give them a controlled environment to do it in. They might even become better drivers for it.

FabForty – I agee that there are many dumb things that many people do. Go into Civic in the early hours of Saturday/Sunday, and you can see a great of it. But this is something manageable – all I ask for is a chance to vote for someone who says that this is a form of intrinsically dangerous, wasteful and offensive silliness that a civil and thinking society does not need.

Well I have joined these Fists of Facebook, although I fear I do not have the car for it.

Reckon I’ll pop over and visit Ma Baker, see what she recommends for a bit of a hoonish getaway. Reckon she’s done a donut or two in her time.

Land sakes, how hard can it be?

*heh heh heh*

People rock climbing and abseiling only put themselves in danger

People who use sharp knives to cut up food only put them selves at risk too, and probably a whole lot more then the average rock climber ’round here.

Burnouts etc might be pointless (appart from generating pleasure) and environmentally unsound, but then so is Floriade.

I would be interested to see what percentage of the nations road toll is actually caused by “hoons”…..

Felix the Cat said :

VicePope – while I tend to agree that burnouts and the like are stupid but if done under controlled conditions such as Summernats or SDTC the risk is minimised. No more risk than say rock climbing, abseiling or numerous other ‘sports’ or ‘activities’.

I think there are much bigger and much more important issues for the politicians to attend to rather than banning dragways and Summernats.

How about lowering the road toll ?

People rock climbing and abseiling only put themselves in danger – they don’t kill others.

Felix the Cat8:22 pm 16 Sep 08

VicePope – while I tend to agree that burnouts and the like are stupid but if done under controlled conditions such as Summernats or SDTC the risk is minimised. No more risk than say rock climbing, abseiling or numerous other ‘sports’ or ‘activities’.

I think there are much bigger and much more important issues for the politicians to attend to rather than banning dragways and Summernats.

And as always, I agree with Vicepope. Hear hear!

After submitting this, I will await the usual blasts directed by children to adults who tell them they can’t play there.

The whole burnout thing is stupid, destructive and dangerous (for reasons canvassed previously). It is also sublimely ridiculous in a world where the car culture (at least the petrol engined kind) may have only a few more years. Why should anyone permit or encourage this?

I know people already act like dopes and hoons. And the cops can and sometimes do react to their silliness. But that is no reason a sane society would want to foster pointlessly noisy behaviour.

I am sufficiently disgusted with the current crop of pollies and aspirants on all sides that I am prepared to turn into a one-issue voter. That issue relates to the bogan end of car culture – I will support anyone who promises to kill off the dragway forever, wipes out all notions of a burnout pan, cancels Summernats and empowers the cops to take real action against any form of idiocy attached to a vehicle. Any pollies or would-bes game to put their heads above the barricade?

Hahahaha this is so funny… contacting the AFP to assist us in finding somewhere for the ‘hoons’ to go, therefore getting them off the streets and still allowing them to do what they want to do… WTF… lol

mdme workalot5:05 pm 16 Sep 08

I hope so Tylersmayhem – as I said, this was a couple of years ago…

tylersmayhem4:53 pm 16 Sep 08

@mdme workalot: I was under the impression that Canberra recently got a whole bunch of new police officers on the beat. Maybe this will help?

mdme workalot4:11 pm 16 Sep 08

@v8-Prius – last time I was in that area late at night was a couple of years ago, and yep – there was an impromptu street race being held. Problem was, there is a greyhound racing club and a companion dog club there that were both reasonably busy so it was an incredibly dangerous exercise. I called the cops (along with others, the officer said) and they showed up an hour and a half later…

Not having a dig at the cops here because I think they do a fantastic job, but it is an absolute disgrace they are so severely understaffed they cannot respond within a (what I believe is) reasonable and effective timeframe.

Here is some info about the sutton road complex.

http://www.suttonroad.com.au/

I think it’s a mistake to think that those labelled as hoons are likely to be interested by this initiative. You’ll get a bunch of sensible people with fast cars turning up, no question about that, but that doesn’t “fix” anything.

You only have to stick your head out your front door on the weekend of Bathurst to realise that something like this is very unlikely to reduce incidence of fanging in public streets.

In fact, this might be complete bull-leavings, but I had a vague recollection that the guy who killed those two pensioners in Sydney last year was returning home from a public race meet when he encountered a rival at a traffic light.

ant said :

Yep. We had hoons before and after the dragway and other motor facilities. It’s a nice thought and evidently one they intend to try and use as a selling point, but dragways and other facilities won’t “fix” the hoons.

Agreed ant.

Hoons (aka dickheads) are forever crying about the dragway closure so as to somehow justify their anti-social behaviour.

There is absolutely no correlation between the existence of a dragway and a reduction in hoon numbers. Even when the dragway WAS open it wasn’t as if any old knobjockey in their clapped out EA Falcon could rock up and start dropping burnouts at their own leisure. It was an organised, safely controlled and professional venue for organized drag-racing by people who understood the concept of responsibility. Car enthusiasts are a different breed from car hoons. Its a shame some people clump them together.

Now that I’ve had my rant, does anyone remember a car-hoon-hangout near the old Sundown drive-in site at Narrabundah? I’d like to hear about it.

Well, as little as hoons and I would appear to have in common, I cannot help but perceive them as ‘the underdog’. I am Australian, and therefore have an irresistiable compulsion to barrack for them.

*sigh*

Such is life ….

…But don’t stop there – get it to the pollies….

Now you are talking. A $15k bribe might get you something….

Yep. We had hoons before and after the dragway and other motor facilities. It’s a nice thought and evidently one they intend to try and use as a selling point, but dragways and other facilities won’t “fix” the hoons.

tylersmayhem2:27 pm 16 Sep 08

Well, judging by the ACT Policing reports and the posts on this site it appears they are already meeting in a central location every week. So that makes that point redundant.

My point is more that while yes, they do already meet at a central location every week – it’s a location of THEIR choice. Do you think hoons will really appreciate being told where and when they can be idiots? I’m sure one of the reasons they do it is because their not allowed to do it.

Gungahlin Al1:51 pm 16 Sep 08

Did anyone else see the Public Notices ad about the consultancy for the future of motor sports?

I can’t find mention of it on TAMS, ACTPLA or DHCS websites, but it was in either last or the previous Saturday’s CT.

Although there would no doubt be some cynicism of this, the way to change the system is to work with the system, by preparing a well-argued submission.

But don’t stop there – get it to the pollies (both incumbents and wannabes, govt and oppn) and after you send it to them, then go see them and argue your case in person.

And get other groups that also support your position to do likewise – at the same time. The message has to come at them from all quarters, via all channels, constantly, simultaneously, and professionally.

(Or you could just come to a commercial arrangement with Wakefield Park…)

I think you are doing a very positive thing for “car enthusiasts” in Canberra.

We seem to get caught up and labelled ‘hoons’, because of the nutjobs, just for simply having a done up V8….

Have you thought about posting on a canberra based forum such as canberra cruises? If not for anything else but to get word out?

Growling Ferret1:29 pm 16 Sep 08

Aurelius

The Sutton Road complex exists – next to the SDMA Hillclimb. It was superceded by the Majura Road complex. Its now primarily used for driver/rider training and heavy vehicle training, and the occasional corporate day with professional drivers going as hard as possible (such as the tale of a VW Golf rolling there at 200kmh at the National release…)

Many years ago it was proposed to be developed into Australia’s first Formula 1 circuit – then Adelaide organised a street race and the opportunity was lost.

Anyway, good luck Skaboy for getting off your ass and trying to make it happen. Wtihout committed and passionate volunteers, things like this don’t happen.

I guess the name and the logo is a reflection of what the group wants.

Let’s wait and see what they do before judging too harshly.

There used to be. It was just after you turned in to Sutton Rd from Pialligo Ave, on the left. There was a several km loop road, with all kinds of conditions on it, including a similated low level crossing. There was a gravel patch, too.

The other facility was on the left just before you turned into Sutton Rd from Pialligo ave, teh cops had a skid pan, and used to soup-up the motorbikes there (this was the early 80s, before they canned motorbikes for everything but escort duty). They were Kawasakis then, and our host said “they go in 1000ccs. They don’t come out that way”.

Actually the best thing there was they had various engine parts that had been sliced open, so you could see how they worked. The clutch was excellent, seeing that operating enabled you to use a clutch in driving much more effectively. I’m sure this is why my clutch is still in great nick despite being somewhat ancient. No one’s ever used it but me (and the occasional mechanic).

Aurelius as it stands they have open days for the public to go out and use the skidpan under supervised conditions.

another option would be to talk to the hill climb club that run beside the police facility, as they run competitions out there quiet regularly.

but yes good luck with the cause.

There is no way the police would let the public use their skidpan (which is on Majura Road by the way) as a plaything.
Even if the insurance problem could be overcome (and it’s a bigger hurdle than most realise) does anyone seriously think the chief copper wants to wake up one morning to see newspaper reports that some idiot has crippled or killed himself using a police facility?
When I worked in politics in Queensland, we had the ‘Courier Mail’ test – how would you feel if a decision ended up on the front page of the Courier Mail? If it would look bad in the paper, then don’t do it. No cop would ever approve the use for hoons to play and show off. It simply wont happen.

I think there are more important issues at hand. Like what you’re gonna tell the Black Power group when they want to know why you’ve flogged their logo.

There is no such facility on Sutton Road.

Avy said :

Gee, how long did you spend on that logo? Seems it came from a 1977 book called Rock Against Racism:

http://www.tomrobinson.com/trb/stencil.htm

which itself was lifted from the Gay Liberation Front of the early 1970s:

http://www.lib.neu.edu/archives/voices/gl-intro.htm

I thought it looked familiar — I can remember reading articles about ‘Rock Against Racism’ when I was an avid ‘N(ew) M(usical) E(xpress)’ reader in the early 1980s. And yeah, Tom Robinson was pretty heavily involved in both organisations (RAR and GLF), IF memory and what I’ve read and heard serves correctly. (Billy Bragg mentioned the connection between the two when he was on ‘Enough Rope’ a couple of years ago.)

Interesting choice of strangely not relevant logo and name. Gives all sorts of connotations to the ‘Ten Thousand Fists’ title. What are all those young men getting up to out in the scrub? Best not to think about it really.

I wonder if they’ll borrow Tom Robinson’s signature tune as their anthem: “Sing if you’re glad to be gay; sing if you’re happy that way”.

All power to them if that’s their thing.

Well, judging by the ACT Policing reports and the posts on this site it appears they are already meeting in a central location every week. So that makes that point redundant.

I have spoken to several insurance companies. It is the same insurance that is used for race tracks and drag strips all over the country. Also the competitors have to sign a waiver and take full responsibility for thier own vehicle at all times. If you go to wakefield park and roll/crash your car, you can’t sue Wakefield for it.

Spectators are required to remain fenced off from the competition area, if they do not abide by this rule they are removed. Just like a race track or drag strip.

V twin venom12:26 pm 16 Sep 08

Good luck with this one skaboy, I like your initiative but unfortunately I don’t like your chances I reckon the noise generated will be a bigger problem than the insurance. Too many soft sausage nimby types live on the fringe of Qbn (Ridgeway and the likes). Well done trying to address this problem.

tylersmayhem12:16 pm 16 Sep 08

I really support this movement in theory – but I hold little stock that:

1. Hoons could be bothered driving to a central location to be idiots…it’s so much more fun doing it around neighborhoods where there are small children (trying to sleep and playing) and other property to be at risk. These dipshits have little respect for anyone other then themselves or their hotted up Hyundi Excel’s.

2. I can’t imagine how the insurance would work for this centralised “hoon area”. I can imagine a hoon blowing up their car or getting in a accident, then turn around and blame/sue the organisers. It happens – sad, but true!

Gee, how long did you spend on that logo? Seems it came from a 1977 book called Rock Against Racism:

http://www.tomrobinson.com/trb/stencil.htm

which itself was lifted from the Gay Liberation Front of the early 1970s:

http://www.lib.neu.edu/archives/voices/gl-intro.htm

Swaggie said :

Seems that Burnouts at Summernats go quite well on the Epic strip – why not hire the strip yourselves once a month? Is it feasible?

It is not an option at this stage. The burnout pad at EPIC is an option we looked at, but the red tape involved means it can only be used during Summernats.

mdme workalot11:09 am 16 Sep 08

Swaggie – good idea, but not sure if that is viable because I seem to recall last year one of the minority lobby groups causing a big fuss about the use of the burnout strip at EPIC and the comp was very nearly cancelled. I think it was safety and environmental reasons all rolled into a ‘We hate the Summernats and want to get rid of it forever’ approach.

Governments tend to bow to pressure from well organised lobby groups ;^)

Seems that Burnouts at Summernats go quite well on the Epic strip – why not hire the strip yourselves once a month? Is it feasible?

I’ve joined the Facebook Group and I’d just like to say good on you for getting out there and raising the money yourself instead of asking the Government to pay for it all.

Brings a tear to my eye.

Holden Caulfield10:17 am 16 Sep 08

Best of luck skaboy12. I hope you have some success, your ideas, so far, sound quite achievable and perfectly reasonable. Getting it all to work will be another thing altogether…

Just be prepared for a bunch of mindless morons telling you what a bunch of mindless morons you are, haha.

mdme workalot10:12 am 16 Sep 08

Good on you Skaboy, glad to see someone doing something about the situation instead of just whinging. Happy to help in any way I can.

Yes, whoever thought up the name blew all the feet off this group!

However, getting access to the police Sutton Road thing is worth investigating. If that’s the one with the loop road with the low-level crossing (upon which you can get airborne if going fast enough ahem).

There’s a skid pan at the place around the corner that fronts Pialligo Ave, too. They used to put stuff on it (not sure if it was oil or detergeant but it was slippery) and had these beat-up old cars that looked like they came from Teh Blues Brothers.

Shame you are not in Queensland a decade ago. $15k would have got the police to look the other way while you did the burnouts in the middle of town…

I like the logo.

I dunno man. I love fists and startin’ a revolution, power to the people, and all of that crazy jazz. However, I don’t think it’s the right angle for such a thing.

On the face of it, I think the ideas have potential though.

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