A hotel for the airport

Last line highlights the whole issue really. The lack of transport is because the development at the airport was no done in accordance with the territory plan. If all the office buildings and shops had of been built elsewhere such as the town centres it would not be so bad. Same too with the road network etc etc etc.

No, the lack of transport to the airport is not due to the airport precinct hosting offices and shops. Without the offices and shops there is no way there would be any public transport to the airport. ACTION provides services to the airport precinct because it’s an employment centre. Those services can also be used by airline passengers.

In any event, the whole argument about the airport precinct is now pointless. The offices and shops are not about to disappear. Let’s make the best of it rather than moan about how it should have been.

breda said :

So, JC, can you produce any figures for crime at the airport as opposed to Civic?

A report of someone else “being scared” doesn’t count.

Two points. Safety in numbers. Not sure if you have been to the airport at 4am, but there ain’t that many people out there and the staff carpark for the terminal is a good 400m walk down a track. The car park for the office buildings are also a bit of a hike with few people around.

Second point perception is reality. Didn’t say the airport was more dangerous than the city or any other town centre, just simply the lack of numbers give the perception.

Mark of Sydney said :

I think you understand wrong. The ACT can’t tax the Commonwealth, so Commonwealth land is exempt from rates, and the Commonwealth doesn’t pay payroll tax to the ACT (nor does the Commonwealth pay such taxes elsewhere in Australia), but the airport is owned privately. I can’t be sure without further research, but I doubt whether the airport or its tenants are entitled to any tax concessions as a consequence of operating at the airport as against elsewhere in the ACT.

With a personal interest in better transport options to the airport, I recently raised with ACTION the issue of bus services to the airport as part of the consultation on the proposed changes to its network. For what it’s worth, the ACTION person told me that 1. his understanding was that the private airport bus service loses lots of money, and 2. ACTION was planning to reopen discussions with the airport operator on the possibility of routing a proposed new all-day service between the city and the airport closer to the terminal. The proposed new airport hotel makes this all the more important, for the hotel’s employees if not for its guests.

I’m with breda on this discussion. There are some seriously odd obessions on display here, not the least about the supposedly wicked airport owners. Okay, they may have taken advantage of development opportunities not available elsewhere in Canberra as a consequence of the way airports in Australia are regulated, but is the result all that bad? Seems to me they have built a first-class gateway to the city, and an office environment that’s a big improvement on most of the town centres.

The only thing lacking is decent public transport.

Last line highlights the whole issue really. The lack of transport is because the development at the airport was no done in accordance with the territory plan. If all the office buildings and shops had of been built elsewhere such as the town centres it would not be so bad. Same too with the road network etc etc etc.

IrishPete said :

breda said :

“Wow, a railway station with no trains – about as impressive as an international airport with no international flights.

IP”
——————————————–
Here’s the thing you Moscow/old Beijing style central planners don’t get – it doesn’t matter if they are wrong. Their and their shareholders’ (if any) money is gone, not that of unwitting taxpayers who had no say.

How anyone could claim that the nomenklatura’s “planning ” of Civic, to take just one example, is so brilliant that we ought to defend it, is mind-boggling. Indeed, in keeping with the komissariat’s worldview, having turned central Civic into a wasteland after dark which is a mugger’s paradise – what do they do? Why, they extend it (Bunda Street).

As someone who spends quite a bit of time in Parramatta, I can report exactly the same results there. They closed off a bunch of roads to create what they call is a “plaza”, and it is now a hangout for muggers, junkies and beggars. No-one in their right mind walks around there late at night.

The last remaining healthy artery, Church St, home to dozens of thriving restaurants and bars, and very safe because there are always lots of people and cars around, is now in the council’s sights for closure.

These people have no capacity to learn, because ideology is much more important than results.

Private monopolies sanctioned by government are as bad as any failure of central planning. Canberra should have second airport to compete with SnowTown. They threw out all the flying schools (or priced them out of existence).

Anyway, I understood the Canberra Airport gets all kinds of hidden concessions, such as not paying rates to the ACT Government (I’m not certain of this, but someone on here will know; and other taxes too?), not allowing public transport to go to the airport so they can award a lucrative private contract and so on.

IP

I think you understand wrong. The ACT can’t tax the Commonwealth, so Commonwealth land is exempt from rates, and the Commonwealth doesn’t pay payroll tax to the ACT (nor does the Commonwealth pay such taxes elsewhere in Australia), but the airport is owned privately. I can’t be sure without further research, but I doubt whether the airport or its tenants are entitled to any tax concessions as a consequence of operating at the airport as against elsewhere in the ACT.

With a personal interest in better transport options to the airport, I recently raised with ACTION the issue of bus services to the airport as part of the consultation on the proposed changes to its network. For what it’s worth, the ACTION person told me that 1. his understanding was that the private airport bus service loses lots of money, and 2. ACTION was planning to reopen discussions with the airport operator on the possibility of routing a proposed new all-day service between the city and the airport closer to the terminal. The proposed new airport hotel makes this all the more important, for the hotel’s employees if not for its guests.

I’m with breda on this discussion. There are some seriously odd obessions on display here, not the least about the supposedly wicked airport owners. Okay, they may have taken advantage of development opportunities not available elsewhere in Canberra as a consequence of the way airports in Australia are regulated, but is the result all that bad? Seems to me they have built a first-class gateway to the city, and an office environment that’s a big improvement on most of the town centres.

The only thing lacking is decent public transport.

Mess said :

c_c™ said :

Mess said :

Word has it it will be a Novotel, Rydges or a Vibe. All decent 4 – 4.5 star brands.

You’re kidding. Novotel sucks, they charge as much as a five star hotel in most cities!!! The only thing worse than Novotel is ironically Sofitel, the supposed premium brand.

Every Novotel I’ve stayed at has been fine. The Novotel on Collins in Melbourne is better than many 5 star hotels I’ve stayed in.

Yeah Novotel on Collins has always had a decent reputation, but each time I compared the rate, they were within $20 a night of the 5 star places nearby.

Novotel Darling Harbour has reportedly improved since the reno in recent years, it was getting really shabby. But again, the pricing is nutty.

For comparison, I picked a random weekend (Nov 22-24) and compared NDH to the Westin, a 5 star regarded as one of the best in Sydney on TripAdvisor.

Novotel per night $426, Westin per night $434 (there’s at least 3 other 5 star places who charge around the same)

Now the Novotel DH has improved, but for only an $8 difference per night, why on earth would you pass up a 5 star in the CBD?

breda said :

So, JC, can you produce any figures for crime at the airport as opposed to Civic?

A report of someone else “being scared” doesn’t count.

Fear of crime is as important a measure as crime itself.

From the ACT Police crime stats page http://www.police.act.gov.au/crime-and-safety/crime-statistics.aspx it looks like they may not collect stats for the airport. Given it’s not ACT land, that would figure.

IP

“Canberra should have second airport to compete with SnowTown. ”
———————————————-
You mean, a government-mandated second airport? So that they could both go broke?

Who would decide which one gets the traffic? Who would pay for the new airport? Hey, it’s only a few hundred million we are talking about here! Not our money, presumably. The Tooth Fairy’s money, perhaps, although the TF at least leaves a coin under our pillow.

This kind of infantile “waah! I don’t like the way the world is and everyone should pay until I’m happy” stuff is part of the working day in a childcare centre. In debating politics among grownups, it’s just pathetic.

So, JC, can you produce any figures for crime at the airport as opposed to Civic?

A report of someone else “being scared” doesn’t count.

breda said :

“Wow, a railway station with no trains – about as impressive as an international airport with no international flights.

IP”
——————————————–
Here’s the thing you Moscow/old Beijing style central planners don’t get – it doesn’t matter if they are wrong. Their and their shareholders’ (if any) money is gone, not that of unwitting taxpayers who had no say.

How anyone could claim that the nomenklatura’s “planning ” of Civic, to take just one example, is so brilliant that we ought to defend it, is mind-boggling. Indeed, in keeping with the komissariat’s worldview, having turned central Civic into a wasteland after dark which is a mugger’s paradise – what do they do? Why, they extend it (Bunda Street).

As someone who spends quite a bit of time in Parramatta, I can report exactly the same results there. They closed off a bunch of roads to create what they call is a “plaza”, and it is now a hangout for muggers, junkies and beggars. No-one in their right mind walks around there late at night.

The last remaining healthy artery, Church St, home to dozens of thriving restaurants and bars, and very safe because there are always lots of people and cars around, is now in the council’s sights for closure.

These people have no capacity to learn, because ideology is much more important than results.

Private monopolies sanctioned by government are as bad as any failure of central planning. Canberra should have second airport to compete with SnowTown. They threw out all the flying schools (or priced them out of existence).

Anyway, I understood the Canberra Airport gets all kinds of hidden concessions, such as not paying rates to the ACT Government (I’m not certain of this, but someone on here will know; and other taxes too?), not allowing public transport to go to the airport so they can award a lucrative private contract and so on.

IP

breda said :

“Wow, a railway station with no trains – about as impressive as an international airport with no international flights.

IP”
——————————————–
Here’s the thing you Moscow/old Beijing style central planners don’t get – it doesn’t matter if they are wrong. Their and their shareholders’ (if any) money is gone, not that of unwitting taxpayers who had no say.

How anyone could claim that the nomenklatura’s “planning ” of Civic, to take just one example, is so brilliant that we ought to defend it, is mind-boggling. Indeed, in keeping with the komissariat’s worldview, having turned central Civic into a wasteland after dark which is a mugger’s paradise – what do they do? Why, they extend it (Bunda Street).

As someone who spends quite a bit of time in Parramatta, I can report exactly the same results there. They closed off a bunch of roads to create what they call is a “plaza”, and it is now a hangout for muggers, junkies and beggars. No-one in their right mind walks around there late at night.

The last remaining healthy artery, Church St, home to dozens of thriving restaurants and bars, and very safe because there are always lots of people and cars around, is now in the council’s sights for closure.

These people have no capacity to learn, because ideology is much more important than results.

What and the airport is any better? Yeah right. Wouldn’t want to be working out there late at night and have to walk back to the carpark in darkness. Used to scare me when my wife worked out there with 4am starts and 11pm finishes. (not the same day of course)

“Wow, a railway station with no trains – about as impressive as an international airport with no international flights.

IP”
——————————————–
Here’s the thing you Moscow/old Beijing style central planners don’t get – it doesn’t matter if they are wrong. Their and their shareholders’ (if any) money is gone, not that of unwitting taxpayers who had no say.

How anyone could claim that the nomenklatura’s “planning ” of Civic, to take just one example, is so brilliant that we ought to defend it, is mind-boggling. Indeed, in keeping with the komissariat’s worldview, having turned central Civic into a wasteland after dark which is a mugger’s paradise – what do they do? Why, they extend it (Bunda Street).

As someone who spends quite a bit of time in Parramatta, I can report exactly the same results there. They closed off a bunch of roads to create what they call is a “plaza”, and it is now a hangout for muggers, junkies and beggars. No-one in their right mind walks around there late at night.

The last remaining healthy artery, Church St, home to dozens of thriving restaurants and bars, and very safe because there are always lots of people and cars around, is now in the council’s sights for closure.

These people have no capacity to learn, because ideology is much more important than results.

La_Tour_Maubourg said :

The Snows are the only entity which actually makes progress in this city. Pialligo Ave duplication? Wouldn’t happen if it were entirely up to the ACT Government. I hear a railway station will be constructed on one of the open air car parks regardless of a fast train outcome or not.

One of the families who contributed in building Canberra as far as I’m concerned.

These people need to replace those at the Assembly.

Wow, a railway station with no trains – about as impressive as an international airport with no international flights.

IP

La_Tour_Maubourg said :

The Snows are the only entity which actually makes progress in this city. Pialligo Ave duplication? Wouldn’t happen if it were entirely up to the ACT Government. I hear a railway station will be constructed on one of the open air car parks regardless of a fast train outcome or not.

One of the families who contributed in building Canberra as far as I’m concerned.

These people need to replace those at the Assembly.

A duplication that wouldn’t have been needed as soon if not for the unplanned development at the airport which brought with it traffic issues.

If the buildings built at the airport were built in a more suitable location (town centres for example) then the government would have got a windfall from the land sale and of course developers are obliged to chip in money as part of their developments for the infrastructure to support their developments.

Not so any development by the Snow’s at the airport, so yeah nice of them to chip in some dosh to help fix the issues they created, but too bad so sad for ACT residents who had the double whammy of missing out on revenue from land sales to build those buildings elsewhere and then had to chip in to build infrastructure that otherwise would not have been needed.

Also so nice of the Snows to build a train station. Pitty the most logical place for it is the CBD, but guess their theory is build it there, then it may get used, then the money for car parking and all other sundry services will go to them rather than any other developer in town. Why all because of a loophole that was put in place so they could develop the airport, as get this an AIRPORT.

The Snows are the only entity which actually makes progress in this city. Pialligo Ave duplication? Wouldn’t happen if it were entirely up to the ACT Government. I hear a railway station will be constructed on one of the open air car parks regardless of a fast train outcome or not.

One of the families who contributed in building Canberra as far as I’m concerned.

These people need to replace those at the Assembly.

breda said :

The Snows have invested hundreds of millions of dollars of their own money in the region.

I support what the Snows are doing and recognise they’re investing a lot both in the economy and via altruistic activities. But most of the money is from financing and spent through corporations which are separate legal entities.

breda said :

@ masquara:

“Why haven’t the Snows been run out of town by now? They are appalling people!

————————————————————–

The Snows have invested hundreds of millions of dollars of their own money in the region. The new Canberra Airport and the Brindabella Business Park are very much better than the shoddy developments that the ACT government routinely ticks off.

I worked at BBP for a time – and it was by far the best designed and constructed place I ever worked in, over many decades and in several cities. Apart from things like the sports field (which we used for lunchtime soccer and tag football of various kinds) there were some lovely sculptures – all selected and paid for by the “evil” Snows – that highlighted the ACT government’s complete lack of judgement when funding “public art.” There are beautiful landscaped gardens, meticulously maintained – for example, the one behind my building was Japanese-style with camellias and maples surrounding a pond and fountain.

The hatred of the Snows is symptomatic of the sickness that pervades much of ACT politics. Of course they are in it to make money. Um, whose taxes do you think pay your salaries? Your own?

But, I think that we are lucky to have them. Not only have they created jobs and infrastructure (which any robber baron could have done), they have strived to achieve excellence in all of their projects. And that means not doing it on the cheap.

As for the hotel, it will either make money or it won’t. No skin off anyone’s nose except the Snows and the operator. Why is it anyone else’s business?

Maybe the hatred comes from the fact that they built all this lovely stuff using a loophole that was put into the airport sale contract to allow AIRPORT development without any need to consult or comply with local planning rules and regulations.

All those lovely new buildings have come at a cost to other developments of the governments choosing. They have devalued land where the government wants to develop, costing ACT taxpayers money. They have also placed demands on infrastructure that the ACT taxpayer has had to fork out for that the otherwise would not have had to.

They then tried to distort the local market, thinking here when they bid for the land that is now DFO (planning on building what has been built there), lost the bidding war so built their own spoiler called Brand Depot (now failed of course), then lodged legal action against the legitimacy of DFO slowing it down and costing money for the DFO developers.

Same too with all the office buildings, all built to distort the local building market, which has slowed office construction elsewhere in Canberra, and created an oversupply that has seen the value of what is already in Canberra fall.

Oh as for skin off the noses of others in relation to hotels. I put it to you this way, there are several new hotels recently built or planning (thinking the Realm, The Burbury Hotel and another they plan across the road from the Real. The developers of these hotels had to pay good money for the land, have had to comply with local planning rules and pay their stamp duty etc. As mentioned Snow comes along uses a loop hole in the airport contract to build a competing hotel. That devalues the existing developments and devalues any future development. So really it is skin off the nose of the ACT Government, it’s ratepayers and other developers.

So yeah nice developments, good for the Snow family, not so good for the ACT rate payer and other developers without the luxury of an airport to bypass local planning rules.

Masquara said :

What a nonsense – greedy Snows will convince ignorant tourism operators and interstate visitors to stay there. Airport hotels are only useful in large cities where traffic hassles make it risky to head into town in between flights. Or for crazy-early starts. There are hotels in Canberra that are a guaranteed 15 minutes or less from the airport in the middle of rush hour.

Picture the planeloads of Chinese tourists who will miss out on staying in town (and spending money on non-Snow businesses). They will be bussed around a couple of the cultural institutions and back to Snowtown on the dishonest pretext that there’s a need.

Why haven’t the Snows been run out of town by now? They are appalling people!

For once, I agree 100% with you.

@ masquara:

“Why haven’t the Snows been run out of town by now? They are appalling people!

————————————————————–

The Snows have invested hundreds of millions of dollars of their own money in the region. The new Canberra Airport and the Brindabella Business Park are very much better than the shoddy developments that the ACT government routinely ticks off.

I worked at BBP for a time – and it was by far the best designed and constructed place I ever worked in, over many decades and in several cities. Apart from things like the sports field (which we used for lunchtime soccer and tag football of various kinds) there were some lovely sculptures – all selected and paid for by the “evil” Snows – that highlighted the ACT government’s complete lack of judgement when funding “public art.” There are beautiful landscaped gardens, meticulously maintained – for example, the one behind my building was Japanese-style with camellias and maples surrounding a pond and fountain.

The hatred of the Snows is symptomatic of the sickness that pervades much of ACT politics. Of course they are in it to make money. Um, whose taxes do you think pay your salaries? Your own?

But, I think that we are lucky to have them. Not only have they created jobs and infrastructure (which any robber baron could have done), they have strived to achieve excellence in all of their projects. And that means not doing it on the cheap.

As for the hotel, it will either make money or it won’t. No skin off anyone’s nose except the Snows and the operator. Why is it anyone else’s business?

poetix said :

I hear it will be a replica of the Lyneham Motor Inn. Quaint is the word.

Shame we don’t have the trades around to replicate the brick lettering any more. Still, you could never rebuild Taj Mahal these days either.

c_c™ said :

Mess said :

Word has it it will be a Novotel, Rydges or a Vibe. All decent 4 – 4.5 star brands.

You’re kidding. Novotel sucks, they charge as much as a five star hotel in most cities!!! The only thing worse than Novotel is ironically Sofitel, the supposed premium brand.

Every Novotel I’ve stayed at has been fine. The Novotel on Collins in Melbourne is better than many 5 star hotels I’ve stayed in.

shauno said :

It will be handy especially if its half decent closer to 5 star rather then 4 star because it can be bloody hard to get a hotel in Canberra when parliament is sitting as ive found out a few times in the past.

Back when my department was located at the airport business park one of the bus drivers I chatted with said Snow was trying to get a hotel put in, apparently it grieved him that passengers that had to stay overnight due to plane cancellations or delays took themselves and their money to Queanbeyan, he wanted to keep that revenue onsite.

IrishPete said :

Probably useful for people from the region for whom a 6am flight means getting up before they go to bed (with apologies to Monty Python for the plagiarism).

Airport hotels often offer free parking while you are away – ’twill be interesting to see what the airport thinks of that.

But I doubt they’ll be impressed with the 24-hour freight flights – most civilised airports have curfews so you can at least get some peace. Soundproofing is only so good.

IP

They’ll probably even make it a freight-friendly hotel. There goes the neighborhood.

What I find interesting is the airport hopes the hotel will attract international flights, the ABC article specifically mentions flights from Dubai and Singapore arriving at 1am.

Now not sure what the Snow family are smoking to be honest. Lets be real Canberra is NEVER going to be an alternative to Sydney, Melbourne or Brisbane and even if it was then people would want to spend as little time as possible in transit. So the only people that leaves to be serviced by international flights will be people from within the region, who presumably would want to be home ASAP.

As for 1am arrivals, gotta ask why? From Singapore that would mean a 2:30pm departure, which means it is impossible to get a full days work in Singapore (something important for the suit brigade) and peak time for connections from Europe and Asia is between 3pm and 7pm. The best time to leave Singapore would be around 8pm, which gives an arrival into Canberra at around 7am, give or take. So a much more civilised arrival time and no need for a hotel.

As for Dubai 1am arrival here is a 4am departure from Dubai. No Dubai is more of a connection point, so if coming from Europe to get a 4am departure time you would be looking at getting flights leaving Europe mid morning up to around lunch time. A better time would be a 10am departure time, which connects with the evening European departures and arrives in Canberra closer to 7am, again a more civilised time and no need for a hotel stay.

So really any hotel at the airport will be for the local market only. Maybe not such a bad thing, but really it should be the government who controls what can be built and where to service the local market.

IrishPete said :

Airport hotels often offer free parking while you are away – ’twill be interesting to see what the airport thinks of that.

But I doubt they’ll be impressed with the 24-hour freight flights – most civilised airports have curfews so you can at least get some peace. Soundproofing is only so good.

IP

Your clearly didn’t read the article, the hotel is going to be owned by the airport and operated on their behalf by someone (actually most hotels are like this, hence why brands sometimes change). So if they offer free parking it will be with the blessing of their owner, which is the airport.

As for noise, take a look at where the hotel will be located? Yep right next to the servo. Noise won’t be an issue there any time of day. Just like it isn’t for the Hilton Hotel next to terminal 4 at Heathrow or the hotels that run down the other side of Heathrow. Noise only really becomes an issue when you are under the flight path.

What a nonsense – greedy Snows will convince ignorant tourism operators and interstate visitors to stay there. Airport hotels are only useful in large cities where traffic hassles make it risky to head into town in between flights. Or for crazy-early starts. There are hotels in Canberra that are a guaranteed 15 minutes or less from the airport in the middle of rush hour.

Picture the planeloads of Chinese tourists who will miss out on staying in town (and spending money on non-Snow businesses). They will be bussed around a couple of the cultural institutions and back to Snowtown on the dishonest pretext that there’s a need.

Why haven’t the Snows been run out of town by now? They are appalling people!

Mess said :

Word has it it will be a Novotel, Rydges or a Vibe. All decent 4 – 4.5 star brands.

You’re kidding. Novotel sucks, they charge as much as a five star hotel in most cities!!! The only thing worse than Novotel is ironically Sofitel, the supposed premium brand.

Obviously noise is not a problem here.

shauno said :

It will be handy especially if its half decent closer to 5 star rather then 4 star because it can be bloody hard to get a hotel in Canberra when parliament is sitting as ive found out a few times in the past.

I hear it will be a replica of the Lyneham Motor Inn. Quaint is the word.

It will be handy especially if its half decent closer to 5 star rather then 4 star because it can be bloody hard to get a hotel in Canberra when parliament is sitting as ive found out a few times in the past.

An airport hotel could be quite convenient for peak bodies and some government organisations who regularly need to hire a meeting space for their national committee meetings. They can meet their colleagues at the airport, have the meeting at the hotel, have lunch and dinner organised at the hotel, book an overnight stay if need be, and then there’s no need for the visitors to have to trudge long distances during peak hour but it’s a short hop to Manuka, Kingston or Civic in the evening for dinner or entertainment.

Probably useful for people from the region for whom a 6am flight means getting up before they go to bed (with apologies to Monty Python for the plagiarism).

Airport hotels often offer free parking while you are away – ’twill be interesting to see what the airport thinks of that.

But I doubt they’ll be impressed with the 24-hour freight flights – most civilised airports have curfews so you can at least get some peace. Soundproofing is only so good.

IP

Word has it it will be a Novotel, Rydges or a Vibe. All decent 4 – 4.5 star brands.

I quite like airport hotels if I’m flying out of a city other than my home at some godawful hour of the morning, particularly international flights where you need to be there 3 hours beforehand.

Airport hotels are quite useful in large cities if you have a very early start, or you have arrive domestic in the evening and leave international the next day. I also use them as recovery points on long flights – if I’ve got more than a couple of hours to kill at a transition point, I’ll get a cheap room and have a shower and a nap. Sometimes just getting to the airport can involve many, many hours of arduous travel.

Does Canberra need one? Meh, I’ll let others who would actually use it answer that.

Airport hotels, one of the developed world’s worst features.

I can see the benefits though of it being there. If you have a 6 am flight then getting to the airport often requires waking up at 4:30am for me. Not that I’d book a night in the hotel before hand, but if you were a traveller for a brief overnight stop and was flying back to be in the office first thing, the airport hotel is probably what they want. Or if you fly in on the last flight and just want to sleep before the busy next day the airport hotel might be a good idea as well.

Because when I go to a city there’s nothing I love more than being put up in a hotel and *having* to get a taxi or bus to get to the city. I doubt that barren plain that is Brindabella Business Park will change any time soon.

Two cafes, a restaurant, hairdresser and ATM. Unless they’re flying in from Dagestan I doubt they’ll be impressed.