Downer gets paranoid about Canberra students at the National Museum

Yes I would find that insulting.

My comment about the spelling and grammar was not at all constructive and was only meant to be a light hearted jibe 🙂

Not at all. Keep dishing it out.

At least nyssa was making some constructive comments.

But I took affront to the backhanded insinuation about police checks. Wouldn’t you?

A little like your pal Alexander Downer.

Again with your spelling and grammar advice Ralph.

You get desperate when backed into a corner, don’t you mate?

Wouldn’t be a problem with the police check. No capital required for ‘check’.

Who said I was AEU? Get your facts right matey. I would NEVER be an AEU member.

As MANY researchers have already proven – in the US and UK – smaller schools actually work to BENEFIT students ACADEMICALLY. But yeah, bugger them, wouldn’t want them to actually have an opinion….

Again, go into a classroom Ralph, I’d let you come into mine but in my classroom my students use their brains and it might intimidate you.

But you do have the required Police Check right? I’m sure ACTDET can set you up.

Never mind the dog’s breakfast of a state that Joan Kirner left Victoria in. Kennett was right in shutting down inefficient public services, including schools with low student numbers and changing demographics. Oh, much like what the Stanhope government has done recently.

But yep, obviously only insiders are qualified to comment. Closed shop. Teachers’ union only. Move along.

Actually Ralph, Kevin Donnelly was a “yes” man for the Kennett Government in Victoria. You remember the debacle in Victoria about education don’t you?

He is so out of touch in a classroom as he “chooses” to be a consultant – therefore spending less time with students than even the bus drivers who take them to school each day.

If your only real basis for a rebuttal is Kevin Donnelly, then you need to read up a bit more on the ACT Curriulum and spend some time in an actual classroom.

That’s what the education system is supposed to be teaching, the ability to think critically and independently.

It’s called CRITICAL LITERACY – look it up before you speak another word about education in the ACT.

Considering Downer is suppose to be an “expert” at public speaking and being in the “know”, I find it quite funny that the ‘Bundah kids pulled him down a peg.

Well firstly asp, it is ‘bourgeois’, and sure, not ‘shaw’.

C-

A, for effort.

Now for you for pierce:

Isn’t basing the bulk of your opinions about the education system on a single source (i.e Dumbing Down) a little simplistic?

Was I? And what did I say above about reading the book, then the critiques. Go back and re-read the thread.

I guess it’s like considering the five scientists who still deny AWG as the only valid sources.

Now you’re being simplistic.

You keep trying to goad me into some great debate about theories of AGW. I’m flattered, but frankly I’m sick and tired of the subject, so that won’t be happening.

But did you see what Dr Pachauri had to say yesterday? Never mind it sounded much like what Ralph has been saying, but I don’t think it was reported by your ABC.

“Teenagers are supposed to be idealistic, environmentally conscious and not identify with the elderly, or boring authority figures.”

I have an aunt who chain smokes and is 87yrs old. Given how many tobacco smokers there were at Narrabundah, I would say many teenagers have a lot in common with the elderly (or will have when their 50). The air pollution they cause suggests they don’t care about the environment. But what you said about their idealism is true. They must be idealistic if they think that cigarrettes won’t consign them to an early grave.

My spelling is normally good. But I type so fast and don’t bother proofing my posts that they are full of errors. That and I am a crap typer.

But, if it gives the wrong impression about students and former students of Narrabundah, the allow me to post in the stereotypical, try hard AND eloquent manner the “bundarians” are meant to use. It also includes the political opinions, drilled into us by the teachers… see if you can spot them.
——————————————-

Dear Sirs and Maddams of the RiotACT and readers of this free flowing, interlectual think tank of ideas and opinions.

It is with immense pride that I write this post, to honour the acheivments and conquests of our brave Comrade Alex, whose daring probing of the evil minister to foreign capitalist vermon states, one Alexander Downer, has decreased the credibility of the Liberal Party and gone far to putting to rest the rule Howard and the rest of the bourgeoisie.

We can be proud of the acheivments of this comrade, whose valliant struggle against the Liberal Party will brings us certain pay rises when the brave and enlightened folk of the Labour Party gain power in what is shaw to be a glorious election this October.

Praise the great Rudd. May he live a long life in the duty of the Australian People.

Yours in sincerity,
“ASP”

Isn’t basing the bulk of your opinions about the education system on a single source (i.e Dumbing Down) a little simplistic?

I guess it’s like considering the five scientists who still deny AWG as the only valid sources.

Making this a debate about education standards is a complete red herring anyway – if I was a year 12 teacher, I’d be ecstatic that I had a student confident and capable enough to debate and rattle a senior Cabinet minister by using facts.

Note that when Lexi wasn’t able to respond to the issues, he used the all too common righto tactic of shooting the messenger.

Read the book first, then read the critiques, and form your own opinion. That’s what the education system is supposed to be teaching, the ability to think critically and independently.

Oh, and there is an excellent rebuttal of ‘Dumbing Down’ by Fox Newspaper (that left wing rag)

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21275638-25132,00.html

A Minister. A senior Minister at that. A senior Minister with 11 years in the job and some past history as Opposition Leader. And he gets rattled by a teenager. Tee hee!

One or more of several things. Teenager may be smart and assertive. Teenager may be aware of arguments on some positions. Senior Minister may be leading contender for upper-class twit of the year (yes, it’s a Python reference). But senior Minister should have been properly briefed and should have read his brief. Or he should have sent along someone with a clue.

It matters not that the teenager might have been worded up by his teachers, his parents, the Canberra Times or Kevin Rudd personally. If one is supposed to be up to the standard for a Minister, one ought to be across anything likely to be raised in an interview or conversation. Downer failed, or his office failed or DFAT failed or all three failed.

Including me.

I consider the public the families that have to fork out 40 pct of their income for their mortgage and are told that they are so much better off than in the Keating years.

Including me.

Howard and his supporters are completely out of touch with the public.

Sorry, but I don’t think that a bunch of screeching Canberrans is particularly representative of ‘the public’.

Nyssa, there’s an excellent book by Kevin Donnelly called Dumbing Down, about outcomes based learning and how the socialists took over the public school system in the 70s.

You now tell me why parents are pulling their kids out of public schools in droves? Maybe it has something to do with poor teaching standards, obscure report cards, and political indoctrination.

It has nothing to do with funding for public schools and Howard’s supposed bias for the private system. Parents are voting with their feet.

I used to be an idealistic student, reading Green Left Weekly, a member of the Democrats as a student, seriously I was. I just dismiss it these days as just a phase that some young people go through. I grew out of it, most of these kids will too.

This entire debate is the reason why the Libs are soon to be history: Howard and his supporters are completely out of touch with the public. If anything doesn’t go their way then it’s the ‘stupid public’ who ‘can’t think for themselves’ and are ‘brainwashed’ by the forces of evil.

“Families have never had it that easy, what are you whining about a mortgage.” “Education is better than ever”. “Scientists know nothing about climate change”. And everyone who disagrees is called stupid.

Anyone wanna be called stupid? It’s time to develop some serious tall poppy syndrome. (or short poppy for Johnny)

Teenagers are supposed to be idealistic, environmentally conscious and not identify with the elderly, or boring authority figures.

Frankly I’d be more worried if high schoolers were fans of Howard and Downer.

Who bases their life solely on what teachers say anyway?

I’ve also worked as a teacher in the ACT. Ralph is spot on.

And no… I didn’t go to Narrabundah, the mistakes in above rant can be attributed to after work drinks…

Nemo: Yes, I agree with you that whole schools writing to the minister is not individual thinking.
However this thread is about a smart 18 or so year old being alleged as a plant by a party. As asp also points out, a lot of the Narrabundah kids can’t stand labour either.
And talking about brainwashing: whoever raves about brainwashing by the popular media? Fox Newspaper aka the Australian, or the “current affairs” shows. They are ‘brainwashing’ and so is JJJ on the other side. Get over it. If students are taught to think for themselves, they should filter it out.I had a fair share of right-wing teachers too, and I reckon they shaped my left wing opinion in some way…

As far as I can interpret nyssa’s interviews: Maybe young people voting for Howard has something to do with him not appealing for them or in general not giving a shit about their problems? Houses are not affordable anymore for 1st home buyers, education costs more and more by the year, the gap between rich and poor is widening, young folks worry more about the environment… (I’m an old bastard though, so just guessing)

Has anyone else got the feeling that Ralph might be a comedian try to stir something up? Loadedog, is that you???

And then they wonder why students don’t speak up – they are ridiculed for saying what they think or it is their teacher’s view.

What a load of shit Ralph.

I remember once (Yr 12ish) being interviewed as to who I was voting for in 1996. I said it wasn’t going to be Howard, put forth my ideas etc, as did the other 5 students interviewed.

We all agreed that Howard was a bad choice. The radio station that aired it was called biased – 6 students, different socio-economic and cultural backgrounds.

Students have brains and can think for themselves, when ignorant shits like you let them.

Oh and FYI have a look at the ACTDET website as to what we are expected to teach – see ELAs. I’d take the time to explain them all to you but honestly I can’t be stuffed. You’re ignorance of ACT curriculum astounds me.

My god. Students questioning their elders and betters on policy? It must be a pinko, commie, hippy, lefty, union bosses plot! Jeezus, isn’t the whole point of the Talkback classroom to ask real questions of Pollies, instead who their favourite Idol is, or what kind stockings they wear?

Slinky, I have no doubt Alex is a very smart kid and is able to think outside the box.

I think you missed my point. Whole schools writing to the minister on particular issues, this isn’t individual thinking, it is brainwashing.

Asp’s comments about the political agenda of teachers at Narrabundah college only go further to support this.

Just pointing out the irony, that he/she was making a statement that said kiddies from Narrabundah are really smart, yet the poor spelling and grammar didn’t reflect that. But hey, that’s OK these days, apparently, how he/she feels about it is more important than trivial things like spelling.

I think I’m getting hot for ralph

The rest of you are hippies

“Take it from me, the teachers there are anti-howard, anti-liberal and pro Union.”

What happened to balance and making up your own mind.

Reduced to insulting people’s spelling and grammar Ralph?

Clear evidence that your argument is hollow.

Oh, and Nemo…but some DO think outside the box. A quick google tells me that Alex is the ACT Geography Champion, so obviously a smart kid.

Also: did you agree to everything you teacher said? At least for me, agreement with a teacher could change my attitude by about 180 degrees just to piss them off…

Shouldn’t a proper sentence construction be

“by the poor spelling and punctiation”

I could tell that, with the poor spelling and punctuation.

Oh, and incase anyone detects a slight bias for Narrabundah, I’m a former student.

And I agree, Downer is arrogant. But there is a reason, he actually beleives that he is decended from aristocracy. And in a senc that’s true, his family has enjoyed the a place in the upper class. But lets face, Alex “Stiletto and Fishnets” Downer should loose the ego. He’s not the queen, well…, he’s just a minister.

Even the pot smokers… are smart

What a fantastic irony. 🙂

Boomacat, you’re right.

Downer is inflicted with enormous arrogance – he seems to think that the only people who could possibly think that the Coalition is doing the wrong thing is the ALP.

Narrabundah is full of smart people. Even the pot smokers and goths are smart. There was once a fight where some Erindale kids came and had a fight with a couple of Narrabundah kids on the oval. The Narrabundah kids are so polite that after a few minutes of fighting (kicks, punches and a spear tackle) they stopped, agreed that the matter was resolved and shook hands. It was a tie. Alexander Downer was a fool to mess with Narrabundah kids. Take it from me, the teachers there are anti-howard, anti-liberal and pro Union. Many of the kids are too. Synical and very politically aware. They know Howard’s tricks and see past them. They don’t trust Labour and Rudd too much, but fell he’s worth a go. To them, Howard is not only old and sneaky, he’s a relic who solved past problems. With new problems such as climate change emerging, we need new ideas.

Also, general opinion is that “Midnight Oil MP” is a sell out and woll forever be held back by unions rather than doing what’s best for the environment.

I dare say that college students these days would have their opinions influenced more by the mass media than by their teachers. It’s little wonder that they’re questioning the government’s motives and methods. Aren’t we all? Isn’t that the point of democracy? Isn’t it a better thing that they have a chance to think about issues that matter to them, rather than turn up at the ballot box and vote the way their parents do because they don’t know any better?

Isn’t Narrabundah full of those try hard ISO and Resistance tools?

The assertion that this 17 year old must have been “brainwashed” by some “socialist teacher” is insulting.

I’ve met many very intelligent 17 yr olds whom were more than capable of forming their own opinions. I’m sure Alex (the student) came up with these very reasonable questions all by himself.

The last time I read the Constitution, Parliament was directly elected by and directly accountable to the people, including 17 year olds. If Downer’s not tough/intelligent enough to respond to the questions of the Australian people, he should step down, rather than throwing a tantrum because the questions don’t accord with his own political agenda. Poor baby.

If only the whole world could be run the way the Coalition runs Question Time (ie by setting their own members up to ask questions of Ministers so they can waste 20 mins of Parliament’s time bleating on about what a wonderful government they are), then glass jaw Downer wouldn’t have a problem.

To cut a long story short, Downer is an arrogant tosser.

And they shrug their shoulders and blame a lack of funding as to why parents are dragging their kids out of the public school system, en masse.

Instead of teaching kids to read, write, and do maths (which most public teachers struggle with these days), the most important things students should apparently be taught consists of the following:

1. The invasion (white settlement);

2. The stolen generation; and

3. The Whitlam Government.

Then throw in a smattering of refugees, multiculturalism, global warming apocalypse etc etc And then don’t mark them on any of this, you know, it’s all outcomes based.

Slinky, not all kids think outside the box. Many think in the same box as that put forward by their teachers.

Several years ago in a previous job I saw thousands of children “writing” to the minister to complain about a policy they knew nothing about. This included pre school children! What does a 4 year old care about public policy.

In many cases it was obvious the wording had been copied from the blackboard.

As Ralph said, our kids are being brainwashed by Socialist teachers. Not all of them, but I dont think they are all as balanced as they are supposed to be.

Plenty of yr 12 students are 18 or close to it.

Dimbo Downer was probably expecting little kids who would ask him what he likes for lunch etc, not real political questions that he can’t answer.

If Johhny H wants capitalists for teachers he’d have to pay a bit more….

Wow… Downer must really have some faith in the education system. Senior students being the puppets of parties, what a lot of &*#&. Sorry Lexi I know it’s discouraged in times of Big Brother and Idol, but some kids read books, and some even read books by the Australian of the Year.

Embarassing for a politics pro of old private school noblesse to be outdebated by a public school kid!
And yes, Ralph, people mellow down (even I, hehe), but students who think outside the box are an important part of democracy.

Generalisations are always a wonderful thing.

I always found compulsory student unionism to be one of the stupidiest, most laughable concepts ever. The very fact the the only way student unions ever really survived was because people were forced to contribute says it all, really. “You need to be represented and we’re the only ones who can do it – you don’t get a choice”! Yeah, that’s what expanding your education and mind is all about!

I always resented paying my ‘union dues’ when I was at uni, and toward the end simply stopped paying (no-one came asking for the money – too disorganised I guess).

“Here’s the deal: I’ll give up voting if I can give up paying tax.”

Ahhhh, Voluntary Student Unionism extended to the whole country. Sounds like a plan that the Liberal Party would be all over.

I would have thought that old people, being cynical in nature are less easily bought (unless by direct benefits). Not that I am old, you understand…

Here’s the deal: I’ll give up voting if I can give up paying tax.

One could counter with: Old people, being cynical by nature, are easily bought. There is some merit in setting a maximum voting age of 50.

Only if you accept that idealism is self-evidently a bad thing, which I for one don’t.

Indeed. They’re just young and idealistic. Even I used to read the Green Left Weekly when I was an undergraduate. Part of being young and silly.

Young people, being idealistic by nature, are easily captured. There is some merit in raising the voting age to 21.

Who gives a crap what a bunch of students think anyway? They’re still years off being cycnical and greedy, and registered voters.

It’s amazing to think that some students might even be interested in issues and learn about them independently these days. I’ve even heard rumours some students think for themselves!

Wouldn’t have happened in my day.

People brainwashed by illogical money driven agendas. Happens all the time these days.

poor old Lex Downer getting the hard word from some students, reminds me of the fearless Minister for Defence running away from an angry mob of student protesters last year.

Its good sport to watch these blow hards face ‘the people’ and not the sycophantic major media peeps who don’t like asking the hard questions for fear of upsetting their bosses.

So they managed to come to such conclusions in a half a day then? I doubt it.

From the article:

Talkback classroom producer Stephen Cutting said the students had been briefed by a variety of sources, including Mr Downer’s office, Labor, the federal parliamentary library, business and industry.

“I think comments like that underline the effectiveness of how these kids learn the issues, they’ve met with many experts, they’ve been briefed by everybody including Mr Downer’s own office,” he said.

“(But) it’s up to students what they glean from the whole experience and they formulate the questions.”

Students brainwashed by socialist teachers. Happens all the time these days.