17 April 2013

More ceremony for the temple of the death cult

| johnboy
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war memorial

The ABC reports on ever more elaborate rites being laid on at the War Memorial.

Speaking as someone who used to go to the dawn service back when it fitted inside the memorial* I’m increasingly disturbed by the trend this is part of.

The national anthem will be played, the public will be able to lay wreaths and a uniformed member of the defence force will read a short account of the life of one of the people on the memorial’s Roll of Honour.

The daily ceremony will end with the playing of the last post and it will also be streamed on the internet.

The Memorial’s director Brendan Nelson says he felt a more meaningful closing ceremony was needed.

It started under the Howard Government, the ever increasing fetishism of Anzac as the last veterans who could have told them off finally disappeared.

Conservatives have always liked the authoritarian nature of Christianity, but it’s imperfect for them.

That hippy preaching love, forgiveness and running the bankers out of the temple? Troubling.

Whereas a militaristic death cult immortalising the sacrifice of the young for the maintenance of the old men’s position of power?

Wrap it in a flag, play the last post, and bow your head as you walk past their name etched in bronze?

That’s more like it isn’t it?

* The author comes from multi-generational service family and is all in favour of remembering the fallen. But all things should be in moderation.


UPDATE: The memorial’s media release is available in full.

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Jim Jones said :

Roundhead89 said :

According to Alan Jones on 2GB money

You really should start your post with that phrase, so that nobody wastes any time reading the rest of your post.

How anyone can listen to that grotty fat little bigot is beyond my understanding.

Roundhead89 said :

According to Alan Jones on 2GB money

You really should start your post with that phrase, so that nobody wastes any time reading the rest of your post.

Tetranitrate said :

[
The UK on the other hand directly denied the poor the right to vote through property qualifications, denying the bottom 40% of men the vote entirely. That ended in 1918 of course – telling millions of traumatized war veterans that they had no right to have a say in how they were governed would likely not have ended well.

indeed, especially after the example of Russia in 1917…

IP

Tetranitrate5:57 pm 25 Apr 13

IrishPete said :

And it’s never been clear to me whether the Germans in WW1 were any “worse” than the British – move to WW2 and you are on much safer ground. Perhaps Britain was a democracy in 1914 when Germany wasn’t, but most of Britain’s remaining colonies weren’t democracies.

IP

Britain and Germany were both ‘flawed’ democracies at the time –
The German Empire had universal male suffrage, but entrenched mal-apportionment at the state level (the largest ‘state’, the kingdom of Prussia, about 2/3rds of the country had a 3 class franchise, where the rich, poor and middle class each were allocated a 3rd of the seats – more or less at least)

The UK on the other hand directly denied the poor the right to vote through property qualifications, denying the bottom 40% of men the vote entirely. That ended in 1918 of course – telling millions of traumatized war veterans that they had no right to have a say in how they were governed would likely not have ended well.

The claim that WW1 was over freedom and democracy is on the face of it absurd though given that we were on the same side as Tsarist Russia, the most autocratic state of any note on the planet at the time.

JimCharles said :

IrishPete said :

Where I come from (UK) Remembrance Day is also a big deal for soldiers who lost their lives in Northern Ireland, which makes it incredibly political in that little corner of the UK. I don’t think it is yet commemorating Northern Ireland’s civilian dead (no matter who killed them) nor terrorist dead.

It’s interesting that Remembrance Day in the UK is suffering from the same accusations of excessive commercialisation and “poppy fascism”, to the point where people feel obliged to wear them weeks before the actual day and there’s blanket poppy wearing for weeks across all TV channels, news, sports managers, public officials, sewn into sports shirts and flags.
This is fine, but those who choose NOT to wear a poppy are being increasingly vilified, normally Irish people who might have very good reasons not to commemorate soldiers they saw as deadly enemies.
The irony is, they’re just exercising the right to independent choice and freedom of expression that soldiers fought for. Trying to push and organise everyone to remember the same thing in the same way is exactly what most WWII soldiers fought against.

I think it is time for the hype to be taken out of Anzac Day commemorations. It has just become too overblown in the media and maybe it is time to scale it back to the way it was in the 1970s and ’80s – dignified, level-headed and not ostentatious.

According to Alan Jones on 2GB money is being spent and preparations are being made to spread the centenary of Anzac commemorations over four years – 2014 to 2018! If this is true it will be going completely over the top and risks Australians suffering Digger fatigue.

LSWCHP said :

IrishPete said :

And it’s never been clear to me whether the Germans in WW1 were any “worse” than the British – move to WW2 and you are on much safer ground. Perhaps Britain was a democracy in 1914 when Germany wasn’t, but most of Britain’s remaining colonies weren’t democracies.

I think you should read a little more history. History is written by the victors of course, but I’m pretty firmly convinced that things would not have turned out well in the long run if the Kaiser and his crew had achieved the quick victory they desired. As it was, things turned out pretty poorly for almost everybody in the short run, but it wasn’t Britain who invaded Germany to kick it all off.

Quick victory over who? WW1 did not start when Germany invaded Britain (it never did of course, the land war not being fought on any British soil and Britain entered the war later than most other protaganists). Nor even when it invaded France (or more correctly, Belgium). It started when the Austro-Hungarian Empire declared war on Serbia as a consequence of the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand. How and why everyone else entered the war isn’t entirely clear to me, but as one outcome of WW1 was the rise of Russia and then the Soviet Union, and of course Hitler’s Germany, I doubt there are any positives. The world may have been a better or worse place if WW1 had not taken place, or if it had ended differently. We will never know.

IP

My boys and I went to the dawn service this morning and I thought it was good.

We got there about 4:50 while the readings were taking place. They were sometimes very moving, particularly one from a digger who had written a letter to his partner to be delivered if he was KIA, which he sadly was.

The images projected on the walls of the AWM were unobtrusive.

About 5:20 it all stopped and the lights went out. We had ten quiet minutes in the dark, and then the traditional dawn service took place as usual.

I was concerned that it might have been distasteful and cheesy, but I thought it was quiet, low-key and dignified.

IrishPete said :

And it’s never been clear to me whether the Germans in WW1 were any “worse” than the British – move to WW2 and you are on much safer ground. Perhaps Britain was a democracy in 1914 when Germany wasn’t, but most of Britain’s remaining colonies weren’t democracies.

I think you should read a little more history. History is written by the victors of course, but I’m pretty firmly convinced that things would not have turned out well in the long run if the Kaiser and his crew had achieved the quick victory they desired. As it was, things turned out pretty poorly for almost everybody in the short run, but it wasn’t Britain who invaded Germany to kick it all off.

Masquara said :

JimCharles said :

… normally Irish people who might have very good reasons not to commemorate soldiers they saw as deadly enemies.

Would that be folks who relate to the tiny minority of Irish people who supported the German-Irish collaboration during WWI, as opposed to the vast majority who supported participation?

Can you provide a source for the “tiny minority” “vast majority” claim? In 1916 Irish republicans/nationalists took the opportunity of a distracted and weakened Britain to try to gain their independence. They probably had the support of the majority of the population, but failed for a variety of reasons including, perhaps, a lesser level of support for their timing than for their aims.

You can criticise them for their timing, but given they won partial independence 5 years later, it would be hard to criticise their motives.

And it’s never been clear to me whether the Germans in WW1 were any “worse” than the British – move to WW2 and you are on much safer ground. Perhaps Britain was a democracy in 1914 when Germany wasn’t, but most of Britain’s remaining colonies weren’t democracies.

IP

JimCharles said :

… normally Irish people who might have very good reasons not to commemorate soldiers they saw as deadly enemies.

Would that be folks who relate to the tiny minority of Irish people who supported the German-Irish collaboration during WWI, as opposed to the vast majority who supported participation?

IrishPete said :

Where I come from (UK) Remembrance Day is also a big deal for soldiers who lost their lives in Northern Ireland, which makes it incredibly political in that little corner of the UK. I don’t think it is yet commemorating Northern Ireland’s civilian dead (no matter who killed them) nor terrorist dead.

It’s interesting that Remembrance Day in the UK is suffering from the same accusations of excessive commercialisation and “poppy fascism”, to the point where people feel obliged to wear them weeks before the actual day and there’s blanket poppy wearing for weeks across all TV channels, news, sports managers, public officials, sewn into sports shirts and flags.
This is fine, but those who choose NOT to wear a poppy are being increasingly vilified, normally Irish people who might have very good reasons not to commemorate soldiers they saw as deadly enemies.
The irony is, they’re just exercising the right to independent choice and freedom of expression that soldiers fought for. Trying to push and organise everyone to remember the same thing in the same way is exactly what most WWII soldiers fought against.

Jethro said :

shauno said :

I agree with Johnboy just a quiet dignified ceremony at dawn is all that’s needed and a day of two up and remembrance for the fallen no need for over the top fanfare.

Does the dawn service come with or without a personal wake-up call from VB?

The old boys from WW1 wouldn’t begrudge us a cold VB thats for sure.

This post started as a criticism of the closing ceremony, now it’s moved onto ANZAC day, I was raised by a WW1 soldier, (my Great Grand father), he went to ANZAC day march in Sydney till ill health forced him to no longer take part. I can swear on his grave that ANZAC day was important to him not to celebrate but to show respect for all the mates and others who had lost their lives. You must remember in 1914 my GGfather had only been in Australia for around 6 years or so, and there was still family back in Ireland etc He didn’t go out of nationalistic pride he went because he thought it was the right thing to do. ANZAC day is special for me because I remember him.

The first story read at closing was about a young man who lived in Canberra, JB go meet his family and tell them you think it is over the top to have that ceremony for him.

shauno said :

I agree with Johnboy just a quiet dignified ceremony at dawn is all that’s needed and a day of two up and remembrance for the fallen no need for over the top fanfare.

Does the dawn service come with or without a personal wake-up call from VB?

Anzac Day centenary celebrations will be a supreme, no-expense-spared PR-fest for politicians. Of course ordinary people (like relatives of the Gallipoli fallen) will be marginalised. Unless the public manages to somehow exert enough pressure to get transparency, expect the “ballot” selection process to include an inordinate number of family, commercial, political “connections” among the successfuls …

Mind you, with any luck the Turks will mess the logistics up beautifully, like the memorable Anzac Day a few years ago where the G-G turned up AFTER dawn thanks to a slow boat, and the idiot dignitaries already on the Peninsula didn’t have the commonsense to do the service sans the GG, and honour the fallen. The consternation on everyone’s faces as the sun rose was a sight to see, and this was pre mobile-phone communication. Oh, the farce and ridiculousness of a “dawn service” with the sun mid-way up the sky …

I agree with Johnboy just a quiet dignified ceremony at dawn is all that’s needed and a day of two up and remembrance for the fallen no need for over the top fanfare.

If you search Google for “celebrate Anzac day” with or without quotes, you’ll find a few government and other official-looking websites which use the term “celebrate”.

IP

A_Cog said :

Gillard has gone for this too, with the Centenary of Anzac celebrations slated for 2014 to 2018, and the ridiculous little grants for communities country-wide to celebrate an occasion which saw an entire generation of young men (and a lot of boys, just kids, who lied about their age) wiped out in a pathetic war caused by imperialistic notions of ‘national interest’ and alliances and just plain pig-headedness by old guys in their 50s and 60s who thought nothing of sending thousands off to die in slaughter. These Anzac Commemoration Grants, to celebrate a war in which all who fought have since died, and the rest of us have only heard echoes of echoes, show that the death cult which JB refers to has bipartisan support. A rare example of consensus.

Is there any official use of the word ‘celebrate’ that you can point to?

And I wouldn’t normally quote a Republican, but John McCain was right:
“War is awful. Nothing, not the valour with which it is fought nor the nobility of the cause it serves, can glorify war. War is wretched beyond description and only a fool or fraud could sentimentalise its cruel reality. Whatever is won in war, it is loss the veteran remembers.”

I’m with JB on this one. Our ANZAC heritage has been somewhat hijacked into a death cult-esque celebration/elevation of what should be mourned. I see the clear difference between the original soldiers in the original conflicts, and the way that the Dept of Veterans Affairs and the government leadership of the day uses these important national days (Australia Day, Anzac Day, Remembrance Day, various commemorations) to boost their agendas for foreign deployments (read:alliances), increased defence spending (read: lobbyists and allies), justifying changes to force composition (read: preparation for the next conflict which could have been avoided with decent diplomacy but for the fact that our alliance partners don’t want to compromise) etc. And this is not just Howard. Gillard has gone for this too, with the Centenary of Anzac celebrations slated for 2014 to 2018, and the ridiculous little grants for communities country-wide to celebrate an occasion which saw an entire generation of young men (and a lot of boys, just kids, who lied about their age) wiped out in a pathetic war caused by imperialistic notions of ‘national interest’ and alliances and just plain pig-headedness by old guys in their 50s and 60s who thought nothing of sending thousands off to die in slaughter. These Anzac Commemoration Grants, to celebrate a war in which all who fought have since died, and the rest of us have only heard echoes of echoes, show that the death cult which JB refers to has bipartisan support. A rare example of consensus.

thebrownstreak69 said :

Nasty stuff. What have you done, RiotACT?

Can’t hold my tongue.. and I have to say that the views of the OP don’t necessarily reflect those of all employed by RioACT Media Group Pty Ltd

Pork Hunt said :

poetix said :

Grimm said :

Who the hell said anything about ‘freedom’ or any of the other nonsense? During both WWI and WWII, a lot of young men gave their lives for their country. Had it not been for those men, the world would be a very different place, and it’s quite possible we would all be speaking German and goose stepping these days.

And what the hell do you expect when some little left wing peanut posts this kind of s***, when people who have served, seen conflict and seen mates die read it? I’m one of them, and I find it offensive when some little d***head calls the War Memorial the “temple of the death cult”, basically s***ting on the defence force and the memory of our fallen soldiers, and then tries to tell us how we should observe ANZAC day. It’s not as if we are having an old Soviet style Military parade, or celebrating war.

Are you aware of the irony here? You are criticising the Soviet Union for how they commemorated World War II. No country did more to defeat the Nazis than the Soviet Union. Civilians (remember them?) and service men and women were lost in tens of millions. Yet you don’t like the way they had military parades, and feel free to criticise that, while criticising others who have reservations about our own methods of remembrance.

Don’t go to Russia, where there is still tremendous pride at the victory in the Great Patriotic War. The uppercuts might be more than idle banter. Which I wouldn’t approve of, in most cases.

Well said.

My Dad fought in WW 2 in the Finnish army against the invading Russians. Until Germany entered the war, England and Finland were allies. Post Barbarossa, this changed and England, a democratic nation declared war on Finland, another democratic nation . This is unique in history.

My point is that every war is started by belligerents with their own axe to grind. Some soldiers defend their own country, others attack and oppress the weak.
The people who start wars rarely die in them. Others are sent to do their bidding with horrific consequences.
The only thing history has taught us is that we do not learn from history.
As a former Australian serviceman, I pause on Anzac Day to remember the fallen of other conflicts as well as WW1.
Let us not forget the profound words of Kemal Ataturk on April the 25th:

“Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives… You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side now here in this country of ours… you, the mothers, who sent their sons from faraway countries wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. After having lost their lives on this land. They have become our sons as well.”

Let’s also not forget where these words are carved in stone. About 80 metres south of this photo. It’s about remembering the tragedy – for young men, for mothers, for families and for entire nations – and finding ways so that we don’t keep making the same bloody mistakes.

You can always rely on RiotAct to throw up a few pedants (punning metaphor intended).

I am in fact descended from the Captain Hardy of Admiral Nelson’s “kismet Hardy” or “kiss me Hardy” quotation, who later went on to become Admiral Hardy so you can’t call him Captain any more. Everyone in Europe fought with everyone else for thousands of years, switching sides occasionally to keep it interesting. So anyone in Australia of Europan descent would probably be in the same boat as me.

I just kinda thought we might be talking about more recent wars. After all ANZAC Day commemorates World War 1, and to a lesser extent all the wars since, as does Remembrance Day (a much more appropriately sombre day, perhaps because it’s not a booze&gambling public holiday). The Australian War Memorial commemorates wars in which Australians were involved, which doesn’t go back much further than WW1 (Boer War being the best known one).

Where I come from (UK) Remembrance Day is also a big deal for soldiers who lost their lives in Northern Ireland, which makes it incredibly political in that little corner of the UK. I don’t think it is yet commemorating Northern Ireland’s civilian dead (no matter who killed them) nor terrorist dead.

IP

plumtree said :

This months Mully goes to….watch this space.

Perhaps not – it would be a brave if not reckless JB who awarded the Mully to our Diggers within a week of ANZAC Day …

poetix said :

Stevian said :

Barcham said :

Is everyone here related to someone who has served? What a coincidence!

We should all hang out and be friends. 🙂

I have relatives that served in the army during WWI & II. The German army. My family came to Australia in the 1950’s. Am I allowed to celebrate ANZAC day?

Only if you wear lederhosen and serve beer to the rest of us…(-:

Be careful what you wish for. Last time I wore lederhosen children screamed women wept and strong men fainted in terror. Not a pretty sight I can assure you

This months Mully goes to….watch this space.

poetix said :

Grimm said :

Who the hell said anything about ‘freedom’ or any of the other nonsense? During both WWI and WWII, a lot of young men gave their lives for their country. Had it not been for those men, the world would be a very different place, and it’s quite possible we would all be speaking German and goose stepping these days.

And what the hell do you expect when some little left wing peanut posts this kind of s***, when people who have served, seen conflict and seen mates die read it? I’m one of them, and I find it offensive when some little d***head calls the War Memorial the “temple of the death cult”, basically s***ting on the defence force and the memory of our fallen soldiers, and then tries to tell us how we should observe ANZAC day. It’s not as if we are having an old Soviet style Military parade, or celebrating war.

Are you aware of the irony here? You are criticising the Soviet Union for how they commemorated World War II. No country did more to defeat the Nazis than the Soviet Union. Civilians (remember them?) and service men and women were lost in tens of millions. Yet you don’t like the way they had military parades, and feel free to criticise that, while criticising others who have reservations about our own methods of remembrance.

Don’t go to Russia, where there is still tremendous pride at the victory in the Great Patriotic War. The uppercuts might be more than idle banter. Which I wouldn’t approve of, in most cases.

Well said.

My Dad fought in WW 2 in the Finnish army against the invading Russians. Until Germany entered the war, England and Finland were allies. Post Barbarossa, this changed and England, a democratic nation declared war on Finland, another democratic nation . This is unique in history.

My point is that every war is started by belligerents with their own axe to grind. Some soldiers defend their own country, others attack and oppress the weak.
The people who start wars rarely die in them. Others are sent to do their bidding with horrific consequences.
The only thing history has taught us is that we do not learn from history.
As a former Australian serviceman, I pause on Anzac Day to remember the fallen of other conflicts as well as WW1.
Let us not forget the profound words of Kemal Ataturk on April the 25th:

“Those heroes that shed their blood and lost their lives… You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side now here in this country of ours… you, the mothers, who sent their sons from faraway countries wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. After having lost their lives on this land. They have become our sons as well.”

Grimm said :

Who the hell said anything about ‘freedom’ or any of the other nonsense? During both WWI and WWII, a lot of young men gave their lives for their country. Had it not been for those men, the world would be a very different place, and it’s quite possible we would all be speaking German and goose stepping these days.

And what the hell do you expect when some little left wing peanut posts this kind of s***, when people who have served, seen conflict and seen mates die read it? I’m one of them, and I find it offensive when some little d***head calls the War Memorial the “temple of the death cult”, basically s***ting on the defence force and the memory of our fallen soldiers, and then tries to tell us how we should observe ANZAC day. It’s not as if we are having an old Soviet style Military parade, or celebrating war.

Are you aware of the irony here? You are criticising the Soviet Union for how they commemorated World War II. No country did more to defeat the Nazis than the Soviet Union. Civilians (remember them?) and service men and women were lost in tens of millions. Yet you don’t like the way they had military parades, and feel free to criticise that, while criticising others who have reservations about our own methods of remembrance.

Don’t go to Russia, where there is still tremendous pride at the victory in the Great Patriotic War. The uppercuts might be more than idle banter. Which I wouldn’t approve of, in most cases.

Stevian said :

Barcham said :

Is everyone here related to someone who has served? What a coincidence!

We should all hang out and be friends. 🙂

I have relatives that served in the army during WWI & II. The German army. My family came to Australia in the 1950’s. Am I allowed to celebrate ANZAC day?

Celebrate is the wrong word. Commemmorate is perhaps more suited.
I’m sure the Turks bow their heads in rememberance in some shape or form on the day.
Since the Germans and Turks were allies, your question has to be answered in the affirmative.

Stevian said :

Barcham said :

Is everyone here related to someone who has served? What a coincidence!

We should all hang out and be friends. 🙂

I have relatives that served in the army during WWI & II. The German army. My family came to Australia in the 1950’s. Am I allowed to celebrate ANZAC day?

Only if you wear lederhosen and serve beer to the rest of us…(-:

Yet again, JB proves that having a critical opinion of this country’s infatuation with defence memorials is a sure bet to popular damnation. Yes, yes I also come from a multi-generational service family and have no issue with people who make a choice to serve but I do get fed up with the big-wigs, who happily send other people’s sons and daughters into conflict just so they can make political allies and then glamorise their service so as to feel better about themselves when it all goes pear shaped, a-la Iraq II.. and who better to show us how it’s done than Brendon Nelson; what did he say about Iraq again “everyone knows we’re only there for the oil”.

All the wars throughout history and all the maimed, dead and traumatised soldiers we have to memorialise and we still haven’t stopped fighting other people’s wars.

Oh, and I don’t vote Green .. ever.

IrishPete said :

Not me. Happy to be friends, but have no relatives who fought in any war, on any side, that I know of. Very happy to keep it that way.

A simple bit of maths would show that the probability of you having no relatives who fought in any war is infinitesimally small. Pretty sure if you traced you Irish ancestry back you’d find Charlemagne somewhere in there–and he was a bit fighty.

IrishPete said :

Barcham said :

Is everyone here related to someone who has served? What a coincidence!

We should all hang out and be friends. 🙂

Not me. Happy to be friends, but have no relatives who fought in any war, on any side, that I know of. Very happy to keep it that way.

IP

Perhaps not so?

“- Mathematically speaking, everyone in Europe is related to Charlemagne. This is because everyone has two parents, four grandparents, eight great-grandparents and so on. By the time you get to the 13th century, you have more direct ancestors than have ever been human beings – about 80 billion. Therefore you must have shared ancestors. In 1995, a man called Mark Humphries at Dublin University discovered this information. He discovered his was wife was King Edward III’s great-granddaughter 20 generations down the line. After closer examination, he discovered his wife was also related to Hermann Goring and American explorer Daniel Boone. He then managed to calculate the mathematics of the information. Correction: It is not true about the realtionship with Daniel Boone. However, West people are ultimately related include Boswell, de Sade, Goethe, Darwin, Francis Bacon, David Hume, Bertrand Russell, Bill Gates, Marie Antoinette, Valery Giscard d’Estaing, Anthony Eden, Lewis Carroll, Hugh Grant, Guy Ritchie, Brad Pitt, Rupert Everett, Ralph Fiennes, Johnny Dumfries, Barack Obama, George Bush Senior and junior and David Cameron.”

Spelling errors for free. I assume this would apply to you IRISHPete? 🙂

Barcham said :

Is everyone here related to someone who has served? What a coincidence!

We should all hang out and be friends. 🙂

I have relatives that served in the army during WWI & II. The German army. My family came to Australia in the 1950’s. Am I allowed to celebrate ANZAC day?

Barcham said :

Is everyone here related to someone who has served? What a coincidence!

We should all hang out and be friends. 🙂

Not me. Happy to be friends, but have no relatives who fought in any war, on any side, that I know of. Very happy to keep it that way.

IP

Jivrashia said :

YOU are exactly the kind of participants I am concerned with as the ANZAC day evolves in to something else ever so slightly each year.

The ‘carnival’ that gallopli has become comes to mind. An excuse to booze it up overseas.

Grimm said :

During both WWI and WWII, a lot of young men gave their lives for their country. Had it not been for those men, the world would be a very different place

tries to tell us how we should observe ANZAC day

Thanks for your invaluable contribution Grimm.

YOU are exactly the kind of participants I am concerned with as the ANZAC day evolves in to something else ever so slightly each year.

It’s called memorial, remembrance, lest we forget.
But for some reason some people are quite adamant that there is an absolute link between the prosperity of this country and the fallen soldiers. To call this a cult is over the top, but there is definitely an unspoken consensus that is starting to take shape in the mind of the younger generation. Maybe calling it a cult is a pre-emption of what it may become.

I’d like to think that those that went before us, including those who fought, and those who manned the home turf, have equal claim in how much they have contributed to this country.

Ive seen similar debates over the years on a number of sites and there is always some that see their own, or an ancestors, military service as the ultimate trump card. I fail to se the logic of “we fought for your freedom so shut up”.

How best to acknowledge the sacrifice of some ? Ex servicemen certainly are entitled to a say but do they get to decide for me how I want to commemorate the memory of people in my family? Each of us is entitled to contribute (I imagine most would have some family links) and being shouted down by one or two who believe they have a superior entitlement tramples the freedoms they claim to have “given” us.

Jim Jones said :

Nobody is doing that. Every single person involved in the debate has mentioned the appropriateness of (to quote JB) “the acknowledgment of this country’s war dead”.

an afterthought no doubt.

Jim Jones said :

The question is how we do this and avoid the ‘they died so you can live’ hyperbole being approached by a few people.

Honestly, if either of my grandfather’s (or any of their ilk) had been told that their mates had “sacrificed their lives so that we can live the way we do” or any of that rot, they’d have rolled their eyes and told you to f$^k right off.

I put it down to just another group that gets over the top worship. Politicians won’t put a stop to it because they’ve got something all politicians want. A populace that near worships military, handy for times they want to do some questionable excursions.

Its a problem wider than just the military. The way sportstars are held up is equally stupid. So the meathead can kick a ball? So what? The guy will be out trying to punch on with people while he’s ‘famous’ then after his career is over at 35 he’ll be doing the same thing just like every other meat head that infects the populace.

Dilandach said :

Jim Jones said :

The fact that people have suffered and died in war should certainly be remembered. But never at the expense of rational thought or free speech.

Absolutely would agree with that. When military is above reproach and political decisions that lead to war aren’t questioned out of fear of being labeled unpatriotic, we’ve lost.

Free speech is a tenet of the free society but at the same time its not a license to be a jerk and dance on the graves of those who can’t defend themselves and cause distress to family members all because you may not have agreed with the political decisions of the time.

Nobody is doing that. Every single person involved in the debate has mentioned the appropriateness of (to quote JB) “the acknowledgment of this country’s war dead”.

The question is how we do this and avoid the ‘they died so you can live’ hyperbole being approached by a few people.

Honestly, if either of my grandfather’s (or any of their ilk) had been told that their mates had “sacrificed their lives so that we can live the way we do” or any of that rot, they’d have rolled their eyes and told you to f$^k right off.

Jim Jones said :

The fact that people have suffered and died in war should certainly be remembered. But never at the expense of rational thought or free speech.

Absolutely would agree with that. When military is above reproach and political decisions that lead to war aren’t questioned out of fear of being labeled unpatriotic, we’ve lost.

Free speech is a tenet of the free society but at the same time its not a license to be a jerk and dance on the graves of those who can’t defend themselves and cause distress to family members all because you may not have agreed with the political decisions of the time.

Barcham said :

Is everyone here related to someone who has served? What a coincidence!

We should all hang out and be friends. 🙂

Meh … my grandfathers and relatives served in the wars and if they heard some of the crap that people are spouting here they’d give them a heavily ironic uppercut.

Grimm said :

Jim Jones said :

WWI had precisely fe^k-all to do with ‘freedom’ and ‘our glorious way of life’ and all that rot.

WWII perhaps, but not WWI, and certainly not Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.

Who the hell said anything about ‘freedom’ or any of the other nonsense? During both WWI and WWII, a lot of young men gave their lives for their country. Had it not been for those men, the world would be a very different place, and it’s quite possible we would all be speaking German and goose stepping these days.

And what the hell do you expect when some little left wing peanut posts this kind of s***, when people who have served, seen conflict and seen mates die read it? I’m one of them, and I find it offensive when some little d***head calls the War Memorial the “temple of the death cult”, basically s***ting on the defence force and the memory of our fallen soldiers, and then tries to tell us how we should observe ANZAC day. It’s not as if we are having an old Soviet style Military parade, or celebrating war.

[ED – Last warning on foul language. Last warning on personal abuse]

There we go, a nice, measured intelligent response: apparently any questioning of the signficance of ANZAC day is some “left-wing peanut … ***ting on the defence force and the memory of our fallen soldiers”.

It’s this kind of infantile crap that gives supporters of the armed services a bad name.

‘ra ra ra the Germans would be goose-stepping’ … ‘ra ra ra gave their lives for their country’

If I wanted to listen to this regurgitated crap I’d tune in to an AM shock jock.

Dilandach said :

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

p1 said :

Grimm said :

Calling the ADF a “death cult” is just pathetic.

While JB’s intentionally confrontational title irks me slightly, I find your post irritates and offends me more? Perhaps it is because you don’t seem to understand his post?

BTW, I also come from a multi generational service family. Seems many of us do.

“Death cult”, “fetishism of ANZAC”? All from laying wreaths and reading a short account of someone’s life? Get real.

I think the new arrangements are a little over the top, but save the hyperbole for something that deserves it.

I’ve seen some garbage on RA over the years but this is right up there.

And there’s the Liberal Party view for us all to ponder. “Nothing to see here, move along. Don’t question the established order.”

Whatever your opinion on the politics behind decisions on entering armed conflicts, it doesn’t detract from the fact that someone copped a bullet or an explosion while doing their job for their country, right or wrong they still stepped up where many of us wouldn’t (myself included). I don’t agree with action in Iraq or Afghanistan (Personally I think it just serves to aggravate the issue and the place will return to the craphole it was the second we leave)

Someone loses a son, brother and in the tragic cases a father. You can certainly criticise the near beatified ANZAC / ‘diggers’ legend (I certainly think a lot is far over the top especially when its used for sports stars) but a certain level of respect should be paid for those that died during their duties.

I certainly won’t say that JB needs to be given an uppercut for the statement, a self given uppercut however would be in order. I also partially don’t blame him, from time to time there would need to be an attention grabbing title on this site for hits and adclicky purposes.

The fact that people have suffered and died in war should certainly be remembered. But never at the expense of rational thought or free speech.

Grimm said :

The people we remember on ANZAC day gave their lives so you could live yours in the way you do.

Jim Jones said :

Mysteryman said :

p1 said :

Grimm said :

Calling the ADF a “death cult” is just pathetic.

While JB’s intentionally confrontational title irks me slightly, I find your post irritates and offends me more? Perhaps it is because you don’t seem to understand his post?

BTW, I also come from a multi generational service family. Seems many of us do.

“Death cult”, “fetishism of ANZAC”? All from laying wreaths and reading a short account of someone’s life? Get real.

I think the new arrangements are a little over the top, but save the hyperbole for something that deserves it.

I’ve seen some garbage on RA over the years but this is right up there.

And there’s the Liberal Party view for us all to ponder. “Nothing to see here, move along. Don’t question the established order.”

Whatever your opinion on the politics behind decisions on entering armed conflicts, it doesn’t detract from the fact that someone copped a bullet or an explosion while doing their job for their country, right or wrong they still stepped up where many of us wouldn’t (myself included). I don’t agree with action in Iraq or Afghanistan (Personally I think it just serves to aggravate the issue and the place will return to the craphole it was the second we leave)

Someone loses a son, brother and in the tragic cases a father. You can certainly criticise the near beatified ANZAC / ‘diggers’ legend (I certainly think a lot is far over the top especially when its used for sports stars) but a certain level of respect should be paid for those that died during their duties.

I certainly won’t say that JB needs to be given an uppercut for the statement, a self given uppercut however would be in order. I also partially don’t blame him, from time to time there would need to be an attention grabbing title on this site for hits and adclicky purposes.

Jim Jones said :

WWI had precisely fe^k-all to do with ‘freedom’ and ‘our glorious way of life’ and all that rot.

WWII perhaps, but not WWI, and certainly not Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.

Who the hell said anything about ‘freedom’ or any of the other nonsense? During both WWI and WWII, a lot of young men gave their lives for their country. Had it not been for those men, the world would be a very different place, and it’s quite possible we would all be speaking German and goose stepping these days.

And what the hell do you expect when some little left wing peanut posts this kind of s***, when people who have served, seen conflict and seen mates die read it? I’m one of them, and I find it offensive when some little d***head calls the War Memorial the “temple of the death cult”, basically s***ting on the defence force and the memory of our fallen soldiers, and then tries to tell us how we should observe ANZAC day. It’s not as if we are having an old Soviet style Military parade, or celebrating war.

[ED – Last warning on foul language. Last warning on personal abuse]

Is everyone here related to someone who has served? What a coincidence!

We should all hang out and be friends. 🙂

Mysteryman said :

p1 said :

Grimm said :

Calling the ADF a “death cult” is just pathetic.

While JB’s intentionally confrontational title irks me slightly, I find your post irritates and offends me more? Perhaps it is because you don’t seem to understand his post?

BTW, I also come from a multi generational service family. Seems many of us do.

“Death cult”, “fetishism of ANZAC”? All from laying wreaths and reading a short account of someone’s life? Get real.

I think the new arrangements are a little over the top, but save the hyperbole for something that deserves it.

I’ve seen some garbage on RA over the years but this is right up there.

And there’s the Liberal Party view for us all to ponder. “Nothing to see here, move along. Don’t question the established order.”

BimboGeek said :

If we’re on Heinlein can we just agree that the religion from Stranger in a Strange Land is pretty cool?

Definitely!

BimboGeek said :

This argument is futile because it’s people who believe the current tradition is disrespectful vs people who think changing the tradition is disrespectful. Gah!

I think that’s a bit of an over-simplification.

As far as I’m aware, it’s not “people who believe the current tradition is disrespectful vs people who think changing the tradition is disrespectful”. I don’t think that anyone is arguing that a day of remembrance and contemplation for people who’ve served in the armed forces (both living and dead) is a bad thing (and that’s pretty much what ANZAC day has become, the sole focus on Gallipoli has broadened into a day with a much wider significance). The argument seems to centre on what sort of form this remembrance takes.

On one extreme there are those who follow the impulse to deify the war dead and surround the day with joingism and nationalism, which many (including myself) find dangerous and unwarranted.

On the other extreme there are people who wish us to reflect upon the pointlessness and destructive nature of war, which others find disrespectful to the war dead.

I find myself somewhat in the middle. The whole ‘they sacrificed their lives for our liberty’ thing is complete and utter bullsh1t, and you’d have to be seriously deluded to take that sort of rhetoric seriously. Anyone with even the most tenuous understanding of Australian history understands this.

But the idea of a day of reflection upon what happened in wartime, and the experiences of the people involved, has the possibility to be a great thing. There’s no reason why the experiences of soldiers and the rest of the armed services shouldn’t be respectfully remembered and validated. But there should be no need to resorting to lies and propaganda in order to try and do this.

If we’re on Heinlein can we just agree that the religion from Stranger in a Strange Land is pretty cool?

This argument is futile because it’s people who believe the current tradition is disrespectful vs people who think changing the tradition is disrespectful. Gah!

Jim Jones said :

It’s also particularly stupid that people feel that they have to preface statements on this sort of thing by listing their family’s involvement with the armed forces. That doesn’t sound like much of a ringing endorsement of ‘our way of life’ and ‘our freedoms’ if people’s opinions on any matter are validated by their closeness to the armed forces … (actually, that sounds a lot closer to the plot of Heinlein’s fascist state in Starship Troopers).

Was this directed at JB? He was the first to mention family involvement?

p1 said :

Grimm said :

Calling the ADF a “death cult” is just pathetic.

While JB’s intentionally confrontational title irks me slightly, I find your post irritates and offends me more? Perhaps it is because you don’t seem to understand his post?

BTW, I also come from a multi generational service family. Seems many of us do.

“Death cult”, “fetishism of ANZAC”? All from laying wreaths and reading a short account of someone’s life? Get real.

I think the new arrangements are a little over the top, but save the hyperbole for something that deserves it.

I’ve seen some garbage on RA over the years but this is right up there.

poetix said :

Grimm said :

…You need an uppercut.

Blessed are the peacemakers.

In the context, this little almost-threat to the writer is quite funny.

Blessed are the cheesemakers?

Completely disagree that the AWM is “the temple of the death cult”.

I am another from a multi-generational service family and I respect JB’s right to say what he thinks. I personally find it offensive but that’s ok.

I applaud the changes Brendan Nelson is making. I think it is good that the Ode will continue to be read each evening and that a fallen soldier, sailor or airman will have their story told by a serving member. This does not celebrate, glorify or worship them – rather it allows members of the community to learn a little about someone who has sacrificed everything.

In the last ten years, I have personally been to the funerals or ramp ceremonies for 15 of our fallen, several of whom I consider friends. I hope that, 30, 40 or 100 years hence, people who have never experienced war (wishful thinking), will be able to reflect on the sacrifice these people have made, in a fitting manner, and learn a little about each individual.

A

We’re doing it for foreign visitors now?

They’re a factor ,I think you will find a fair percentage of visitors to the AWM are from overseas. The AWM is also a tourist attraction as well as a memorial, just saying

VeryMildSuperPowers6:32 pm 17 Apr 13

I don’t have much to add to the conversation, other than the fact I agree with what Johnboy is saying – and I’m ex-Army (1989 – 1995).

These developments are starting to stink like a Nuremberg rally.

Have any of you ever been to the last post ceremony at Ypres? I’ve been a dozen or so times as a tour manager. The authorities give the opportunity for a group, usually a scout or school group from the UK to ‘host’ the ceremony. A lectern is set up and a speech is made and a wreath or two laid. Fair enough the streaming over the internet is perhaps over the top but a small ceremony that might give children some opportunity to get involved surely isn’t a bad thing?

johnboy said :

I am all for the acknowledgment of this country’s war dead.

However I think it is now fast moving beyond the historical levels of recognition afforded even by those who survived the conflicts we’re now trying to glorify.

+1

no idea said :

I am not sure what JB hates. is it the War Memorial, the ADF , Servicemen/ women who have died, people who are proud of their families for having served? It is sad that some people seem to enjoy taking something that is important to other people and deciding they have a right to disrespect that belief. The closing ceremony seems a tad out of step with the local expectations but please don’t forget the AWM attracts a lot of foreign visitors who only see this place once, so the closing ceremony may be special to them , maybe look at the big picture and stop your personal bias from creeping into your reporting.

I hate none of those things.

We’re doing it for foreign visitors now?

JB as if you haven’t been moved by the recorded voices of the four or so Sandakan survivors in the space at the AWM that also pictures the 1500 who died. You can, you know, be Canberra’s beloved swaggering hipster trendoid faux-hippie beer-swilling culture tragic and Mini Me-dia mogul (mix & match to your self-regard) AND acknowledge our war dead!

I am all for the acknowledgment of this country’s war dead.

However I think it is now fast moving beyond the historical levels of recognition afforded even by those who survived the conflicts we’re now trying to glorify.

I am not sure what JB hates. is it the War Memorial, the ADF , Servicemen/ women who have died, people who are proud of their families for having served? It is sad that some people seem to enjoy taking something that is important to other people and deciding they have a right to disrespect that belief. The closing ceremony seems a tad out of step with the local expectations but please don’t forget the AWM attracts a lot of foreign visitors who only see this place once, so the closing ceremony may be special to them , maybe look at the big picture and stop your personal bias from creeping into your reporting.

Grimm said :

I’m also from a multi-generational service family, one of those generations being myself. People like the author of this sicken me. I’d call bullshit that they have ever had anything to do with the ADF, and are almost guaranteed to be a greens voter.

The people we remember on ANZAC day gave their lives so you could live yours in the way you do. Calling the ADF a “death cult” is just pathetic. You need an uppercut.

I love the argument you always get from meatheads like this that essentially boil down to:
‘Those soldiers died so you can enjoy liberties like freedom of speech, so you’d better just shut the Hell up’

Grimm, mate, you’re one who needs an uppercut. You should re-enlist so you can go take that aggression out on some piss-poor third world country in defence of our freedoms.

I have a great respect for the service-people of our country, but I hate people who think the ADF is beyond reproach, or that criticising the glorification of senseless slaughter is a sign of disloyalty and also apparently (and somewhat bizarrely) Greens membership.

Pull your head in, Grimm, serviceman or not you’re acting like a proper tool.

ScienceRules4:31 pm 17 Apr 13

Jim Jones nailed it. Repeatedly. Sir, it would be a pleasure to buy you several beers

There is a major difference between honouring young people chewed up by the war machine and using the occasion as blatant propaganda. This glorification makes it increasingly difficult to criticise the current insane/illegal/unjustified colonial conflicts without making it an attack on the troops we send to fight them.

If the government were truly serious about “supporting the troops”, which they aren’t, how about looking at improving the services to veterans and indexing their meager pensions? Just as a start…

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd4:11 pm 17 Apr 13

Grimm said :

I’m also from a multi-generational service family, one of those generations being myself. People like the author of this sicken me. I’d call bullshit that they have ever had anything to do with the ADF, and are almost guaranteed to be a greens voter.

The people we remember on ANZAC day gave their lives so you could live yours in the way you do. Calling the ADF a “death cult” is just pathetic. You need an uppercut.

Ummm what is being a greens member have to do with anything?

EvanJames said :

Grimm said :

People like the author of this sicken me. I’d call bullshit that they have ever had anything to do with the ADF, and are almost guaranteed to be a greens voter.

Why do people from the conservative side of politics always resort to ad homs when disagreeing with an opinion?

I think it’s more a trait of ignorant retards myself.

And it’s definitely not a “conservative” thing, there’s plenty of stupid on all sides of the ideological spectrum.

Personally I’d like to see ANZAC day reverted into a public holiday for those who are serving, have served, or can show a close link to someone who has served.

It would save me from the despairing sight of pissed jingoistic bogans playing two up as if they have earnt the right to do so by simply being born in this country.

Meh … they’ll do that crap on Australia day anyway. You can’t remove a public holiday just because some people are d***heads. That’s completely unorstrayan.

poetix said :

Grimm said :

…You need an uppercut.

Blessed are the peacemakers.

In the context, this little almost-threat to the writer is quite funny.

I’m sure he’s able to take it on the chin,no problemo.

Grimm said :

…You need an uppercut.

Blessed are the peacemakers.

In the context, this little almost-threat to the writer is quite funny.

This choice “The new tradition will be launched tonight when VC recipient Corporal Daniel Keighran will read the story of Private Robert Poate who was killed in Afghanistan last year.” seems extremely political. Who would dare to complain about a recently deceased Digger, being eulogised by a recent VC-winner? Yet Afghanistan is a controversial invasion and war.

Well, johnboy dares, and good on you jb (though I don’t beleive you vote Greens). And isn’t it a bit pompous to describe this as a “new tradition”? isn’t that a contradiction in terms, an oxymoron?

Australia has been involved in 10 or a dozen wars, and has always gone to war voluntarily, never in self-defence. An objective assessment might therefore classify Australia as a warmongering nation. Even in WW2 the Allies involvement was somewhat later than it should have been (the war may have been smalelr and shorter if they hadn’t appeased Germany for so long). Australia may have been threatened by Japan, but only because Australia had gone to war with Japan’s allies. Do we need to enter every war available to us? Have we no independent judgement? I’d be much more proud of a country’s history of neutrality than of wars, neutrality is a much tougher decision.

Who said war represents a failure of diplomacy? They were right. Every war is a failure, regardless of the outcome.

IP

smiling politely said :

I heard about this on the radio this morning and my immediate reaction was that the new arrangements sound a bit over the top and jingoistic-y. There should be less ceremony and more silence. Less carry-on and more contemplation. You’ll raise ire with your choice of wording John but I completely see where you’re coming from.

I don’t see it as a death cult. But nor do I think having such views means one is a hippy green (for want of a better term).

I like the name War Memorial because to call it a Peace Memorial indicates peace is no longer with us. Sure, we are in conflicts all the time, but let’s say peace is an aspirational goal. We commemorate those who died, not to glorify war, but to allow a sense of solemnity to accompany the memories of those we’ve lost.

I’d never begrudge a six year old for thinking waking up early to be part of something special is cool. They’ll get the heaviness to the day as they mature.

Here_and_Now1:30 pm 17 Apr 13

JohnBoy may be right. There’s a time and place for this sort of thing.

Some kind of venue for remembering and commemorating conflicts of the past.

A…memorial to war or something.

“Wrap it in a flag, play the last post, and bow your head as you walk past their name etched in bronze?

That’s more like it isn’t it?”
Well said that man.

This is all part of the growing Australian jingoism promoted by John Hunt the Coward and his ilk. By now this US-style flag-waving hoopla should have just about dies out, but instead it’s on the increase.

I was lucky enough to spend a few hours with a decorated-for-bravery veteran of WWII a few months ago. He’s horrified by this commercialisation and glorification of war which, he said. we should be doing everything we can to forget.

Grimm said :

I’m also from a multi-generational service family, one of those generations being myself. People like the author of this sicken me. I’d call bullshit that they have ever had anything to do with the ADF, and are almost guaranteed to be a greens voter.

The people we remember on ANZAC day gave their lives so you could live yours in the way you do. Calling the ADF a “death cult” is just pathetic. You need an uppercut.

You need an uppercut. I am also from a ‘multi-generational service family’ (including myself) and can tell you that the amount of people whose deaths directly protected our way of life is crap. I am as proud of our armed services as anyone and will always shake the hand of anyone who served or is serving and thank them for the job that they do. But my many still serving friends all the share the same opinion as me in regards to the marketing that currently surrounds the ANZACs and their legacy.

Less marketing and more rememberance is in order. I know I will not be at the AWM on ANZAC day, in fact I will be in Braidwood with a bunch of serving and ex-serving mates. We will be drinking, sharing ‘war stories’ and thinking abouut the mates we have lost and everyone else that has served in the forces whether they have lost their lives or not. In fact, try remembering their families as well and while you are at it, thank and hug some serving members partners for the sacrifice that they go through as well.

Grimm said :

The people we remember on ANZAC day gave their lives so you could live yours in the way you do.

Yeah, pretty sure that if Australia had stayed out of all of those foreign adventures my life would be the same as it is now.

Grimm said :

Calling the ADF a “death cult” is just pathetic.

Care to point out exactly where in the post that the ADF is called a death cult? I think not quite understanding the concept.

Grimm said :

You need an uppercut.

Ah, yes, rational debate always the best way to sort these things out.

In my opinion, you don’t fall into the moderate camp if you start calling the AWM the ‘temple of the death cult’. JB, you’re in danger of occupying the other ugly side of the pendulum.

Grimm said :

I I’d call bullshit that they have ever had anything to do with the ADF, and are almost guaranteed to be a greens voter.

Yeah, let’s drag bogan politics into a AWM discussion. You’re as bad as those you criticise.

It’s also particularly stupid that people feel that they have to preface statements on this sort of thing by listing their family’s involvement with the armed forces. That doesn’t sound like much of a ringing endorsement of ‘our way of life’ and ‘our freedoms’ if people’s opinions on any matter are validated by their closeness to the armed forces … (actually, that sounds a lot closer to the plot of Heinlein’s fascist state in Starship Troopers).

And it’s quite telling that your criticism of JBs post ends with a threat (even if it is a throwaway mock threat) of violence.

Even the disparagement of Greens voters is pretty funny. Are you implying that the diggers died for our freedom, but if anyone chooses to use that freedom to vote for a political party that you don’t like then all bets are off?

You’re being ridiculous. I have many issues with the commercialisation of ANZAC Day, the flag and what patriotism means these days. Those issues have nothing to do with this. It is a war memorial, after all. It should be an honour for serving personnel to be chosen for the daily service – and it also should add meaning for those present.

I admit – it sounds over the top at first. However, it makes a lot of sense to start a tradition like this for the overwhelming majority of visitors who attend on the other 364 days of the year.

thebrownstreak6912:39 pm 17 Apr 13

Nasty stuff. What have you done, RiotACT?

What Jim Jones said.

And also a reminder that soldiers aren’t actually hired to die for their country, although they are sometimes deployed to help the other side die for theirs. Generally you don’t get butterflies that fart rainbows just by sacrificing a few kids.

War doesn’t cause peace. In fact you could argue that the tensions that lead up to any given war were caused by the mess left by the previous war. Peace, prosperity and a positive way of life are the result of getting over the pain and working for pacific solutions to humanity’s problems.

It’s definitely important to remember the bad times, but sadly there’s little to celebrate, just many painful lessons to learn.

Grimm said :

People like the author of this sicken me. I’d call bullshit that they have ever had anything to do with the ADF, and are almost guaranteed to be a greens voter.

Why do people from the conservative side of politics always resort to ad homs when disagreeing with an opinion?

Grimm said :

Calling the ADF a “death cult” is just pathetic.

While JB’s intentionally confrontational title irks me slightly, I find your post irritates and offends me more? Perhaps it is because you don’t seem to understand his post?

BTW, I also come from a multi generational service family. Seems many of us do.

Grimm said :

The people we remember on ANZAC day gave their lives so you could live yours in the way you do. Calling the ADF a “death cult” is just pathetic. You need an uppercut.

No they didn’t.

WWI had precisely fe^k-all to do with ‘freedom’ and ‘our glorious way of life’ and all that rot.

WWII perhaps, but not WWI, and certainly not Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.

This is not to diminish the work of the armed forces, but they idea that they ‘defend our freedom’ and our way of life is dependent upon their sacrifice is utter bullsh1t. Our ‘way of life’ and ‘freedom’ are more dependent upon politicians than soldiers, and more centred on economics than military excursions.

I’m all up for remembering the deaths of fallen soldiers, but lets not surround the day in meaningless jingoism with no basis in reality. A realistic look at who soldiers were and are is far more emotionally moving and important than this stupid hyperbole.

smiling politely11:33 am 17 Apr 13

I heard about this on the radio this morning and my immediate reaction was that the new arrangements sound a bit over the top and jingoistic-y. There should be less ceremony and more silence. Less carry-on and more contemplation. You’ll raise ire with your choice of wording John but I completely see where you’re coming from.

Calling it a death-cult is a bit OTT… perhaps tone that one down a bit.

However, the glorification of the whole thing is getting a bit worrying. Last year I overheard some yr 6 kids talking about how ‘cool’ they thought it all was and how ‘excited’ they were that they were going to the service.

Nobody involved in a war who would have seen a bullet rip another young mans life & limb apart would ever think such things were very cool. Nobody should ever think like that.

Solemn remembrance? Yes, absolutely.

Fanfare and big-event marketing? …I’m not so sure it’s appropriate.

—–
On a similar topic, why isn’t it called the ‘Peace Memorial’?

Wouldn’t that send a better message? i.e. let’s celebrate the sacrifice these people made so we now have peace and stability… let’s encourage people to celebrate all the years of non-conflict… Yes, let’s acknowledge the terrible events that took place in the past, but let’s put more emphasis on the positives associated with friendships, negotiation, collaboration, etc. rather than continuously opening up old wounds. It would be a minor tweak but the future outcomes would be so much more constructive and positive.

Grimm said :

People like the author… are almost guaranteed to be a greens voter.

Egads! Revealed!

Iron Man 3 will be on screens that day.

I’m also from a multi-generational service family, one of those generations being myself. People like the author of this sicken me. I’d call bullshit that they have ever had anything to do with the ADF, and are almost guaranteed to be a greens voter.

The people we remember on ANZAC day gave their lives so you could live yours in the way you do. Calling the ADF a “death cult” is just pathetic. You need an uppercut.

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