25 June 2012

Speed cameras are bunk? [With poll]

25 June 2012 | johnboy

The Liberals’ Alistair Coe is wearing his Member for Motorists hat and taking a swing at the safety impacts of fixed speed cameras:

Information obtained by the Canberra Liberals shows the ACT Labor Government’s fixed speed cameras are failing to reduce accidents, with accident rates actually increasing at most of the camera locations. ACT Shadow Urban Services Minister Alistair Coe said today this is evidence of the government’s flawed speed camera strategy, which prioritises revenue over safety.

“Overall, accidents have increased by 40 per cent at fixed speed camera sites, while revenue continues to rise in the millions of dollars,” Mr Coe said.

“It’s clear that instead of installing fixed speed cameras in places that will raise the most revenue, the government should be taking an evidence based approach to road safety.

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NoImRight10:28 am 27 Jun 12

Mmmm. So consensus is the issue isnt speed cameras in themselves but a lack of driver education? So maybe the money collected from camers should be used to fund improved driver training? Not for us of course ist already been established we are all brilliant drivers. Its the other guys….

BTW #50 “but the local road toll comes down to intersections and motorbikes.” Id love for you to expand on this. Nice job of ducking responsibilty for your own actions at this stage but perhaps Ive misunderstood?

bundah9:58 am 27 Jun 12

OpenYourMind said :

The period of installation of cameras is really only going to be a fleeting moment in the era of automotive transport. Not far into the future speed limits will be governed by your vehicle and not by you. The feature creep heading toward autonomous cars is happening at an ever faster rate. Once Governments cotton on to the benefits of autonomous cars the legislation will accelerate the takeup. Governments will see benefits including dramatically lower road toll and therefore health costs, new ways of tracking and controlling people and a complete understanding of why an accident occurred if one does occur. Before you scoff at such a suggestion, consider that the US is already in the process of passing legislation to make this a reality: http://www.pcworld.com/article/254152/senate_passes_bill_requiring_black_boxes_in_all_new_cars.html

Ok, there’s the big brother aspect, but there’s also all the passive and active safety systems continually being improved to eliminate the idiot behind the wheel. It’s already near impossible to get unstuck on a corner if your car is fitted with vehicle stability control, your car won’t lock its brakes and now many of the upmarket cars have some kind of brake assist whereby if you, after being warned, haven’t hit the brakes, if the car thinks you’ll crash, the car will do it for you. (brake assist).
Some newer car’s stability control has moved from controlling car yaw through individual applications of braking to now controlling steering where the car will sense a skid, evaluate the coefficient of friction and adjust the steering accordingly. Most new cars have fly by wire for the throttle. These shifts in technology all are lead-ins to autonomous vehicles.

Once we move to autonomous vehicles, there wil be all sorts of shifts in our society that we can’t even imagine yet, let alone plan for. In the same way that the internet has changed the way we do so many things, so too will autonomous cars. Concepts such as car parks, traffic jams, car insurance, commuting to work and even car ownership may all shift. Imagine sitting in a car, reading a paper as it takes you to the front door of the mall. The car then heads off to a recharging station somewhere and will return at your request.

So with all this in mind, prattling on about the voluntary tax cameras is really just a puff of wind when you put an eye to the future. Same goes for arguments about bicycles and cars. In the future an autonomous car will spot a bicycle before you can blink and will drive politely past the bicycle at a safe opportunity – shame some car drivers don’t have the ability to do this now.

The future is looking warm and rosy but we are talking about the here and now!

Gungahlin Al9:31 am 27 Jun 12

Mr Gillespie joins a thread and it immediately turns to mush. As usual. And it isn’t even Troll-day.

bundah9:27 am 27 Jun 12

There have been many studies done on the efficacy of speed cameras and most conclude that they have produced positive outcomes. That being said however i have always believed that high visibility policing is very effective at slowing the speedsters down but unfortunately govts priorities are focused elsewhere.

OpenYourMind9:25 am 27 Jun 12

The period of installation of cameras is really only going to be a fleeting moment in the era of automotive transport. Not far into the future speed limits will be governed by your vehicle and not by you. The feature creep heading toward autonomous cars is happening at an ever faster rate. Once Governments cotton on to the benefits of autonomous cars the legislation will accelerate the takeup. Governments will see benefits including dramatically lower road toll and therefore health costs, new ways of tracking and controlling people and a complete understanding of why an accident occurred if one does occur. Before you scoff at such a suggestion, consider that the US is already in the process of passing legislation to make this a reality: http://www.pcworld.com/article/254152/senate_passes_bill_requiring_black_boxes_in_all_new_cars.html

Ok, there’s the big brother aspect, but there’s also all the passive and active safety systems continually being improved to eliminate the idiot behind the wheel. It’s already near impossible to get unstuck on a corner if your car is fitted with vehicle stability control, your car won’t lock its brakes and now many of the upmarket cars have some kind of brake assist whereby if you, after being warned, haven’t hit the brakes, if the car thinks you’ll crash, the car will do it for you. (brake assist).
Some newer car’s stability control has moved from controlling car yaw through individual applications of braking to now controlling steering where the car will sense a skid, evaluate the coefficient of friction and adjust the steering accordingly. Most new cars have fly by wire for the throttle. These shifts in technology all are lead-ins to autonomous vehicles.

Once we move to autonomous vehicles, there wil be all sorts of shifts in our society that we can’t even imagine yet, let alone plan for. In the same way that the internet has changed the way we do so many things, so too will autonomous cars. Concepts such as car parks, traffic jams, car insurance, commuting to work and even car ownership may all shift. Imagine sitting in a car, reading a paper as it takes you to the front door of the mall. The car then heads off to a recharging station somewhere and will return at your request.

So with all this in mind, prattling on about the voluntary tax cameras is really just a puff of wind when you put an eye to the future. Same goes for arguments about bicycles and cars. In the future an autonomous car will spot a bicycle before you can blink and will drive politely past the bicycle at a safe opportunity – shame some car drivers don’t have the ability to do this now.

Martyn945:08 am 27 Jun 12

Very Busy said :

Jungle Jim said :

I reckon they should have point to point speed camera at every school zone.

Yes, because the safest outcome would be to encourage motorists to be continually focused on looking down to ensure that the speedometer needle doesn’t inadvertently creep up to 42kph rather than scanning their surroundings and being prepared for a child running or riding onto the roadway.

The problem with this is that you’re not thinking enough about the consequences of your alternative. You start from the premise that most Canberra drivers can’t fart and chew gum at the same time – ie in this case manage their speed as well as looking at the road. That seems true enough to me, though you said it not me.

So your answer is to let them go at the speed they like in the hope that this will free up some mental space for them to look at the road. The problem in a school zone is that they will kill some kids at 50 kph even if they are trying as hard as they can, but they will kill none at 20kph even if they are blindfold. (A 40 kph limit is the worst of both worlds: low enough to be mildly annoying, but not remotely low enough to be effective).

We can’t hope that our Canberra drivers will get their heads round this: we already agree that they are clueless. But there is ample evidence that their behaviour can still be changed for the better: you just have to play whack-a-mole, so that it hurts, day after day and year after year until the culture changes.

X7110:27 pm 26 Jun 12

Driving and the road rules is not like a democracy it’s a dictatorship.
It has to be that way so we all drive in a similar and thus predictable manner.

I feel much safer when doing the speed limit on Hindmarsh Drive now because there aren’t speeding cars about to ram me from behind because they are traveling so much faster when at 100 in the 80 zone.

I also could happily do 100kph down that hill but I follow the rules and only do 80.

cranky9:15 pm 26 Jun 12

I’m with Mr G on this.

I am certainly of the opinion that speed limits are set more for their revenue raising power than road safety considerations.

Hindmarsh Drive over the P2P should be 90K. Why is Melrose through Phillip 60K? 3 lanes wide heading north, no driveways, but a favourite of the speed cameras. GDE is 100K designed. Conversely, Majura Lane is bloody dangerous at 90K. And Pialligo Ave to Qbn is a nonsense at 100K, given the many low level intersections along it’s length.

More than happy to comply with red light cameras, and may there be be many more visible Police vehicles, but the local road toll comes down to intersections and motorbikes.

Speed cameras have minimal effect. But Govco rely on the income.

Woody Mann-Caruso6:26 pm 26 Jun 12

That, sir, is bullshit, and you know it.

How so? I’ve never paid the idiot tax. What’s wrong with you that you do?

That’s right – you can’t control a motor vehicle, and it’s everybody’s fault but yours.

fragge2:17 pm 26 Jun 12

Put more of them in, especially at schools, after all it’s just an idiot tax.

The article calls out fixed cameras as causing more accidents at their installation site and your first suggestion is to put more in school zones? If I didn’t hate children as much as you seem to I would totally call you out for that embarassing lack of editorial vigour.

Very Busy6:49 pm 25 Jun 12

Jungle Jim said :

Very Busy said :

Jungle Jim said :

Very Busy said :

Jungle Jim said :

I reckon they should have point to point speed camera at every school zone.

Yes, because the safest outcome would be to encourage motorists to be continually focused on looking down to ensure that the speedometer needle doesn’t inadvertently creep up to 42kph rather than scanning their surroundings and being prepared for a child running or riding onto the roadway.

How about just sticking to something closer to 35 and maintaining that speed (+/- 3kph) through feel? It’s not that hard.

Haha, that’s just like saying how about everyone just obey the road rules. It’s not that hard.

Jim, it’s not my ability to safely keep within the speed limit that worries me, it’s the ability of the majority of the general ACT population.

Obeying the rules has nothing to do with skill – it’s a choice people make. If someone seriously can’t maintain a fairly constant speed without having their eyes pretty much glued to the speedo, then they shouldn’t be driving. Plain and simple.

To me, it’s one thing to consciously travel at 120+ on the parkway and another altogether to creep up to 42 in a school zone, but the latter can be managed by aiming for a lower speed to counter the creep. I HATE seeing people breeze through school zones at 60+ and I’ve never once seen anyone booked for it in the ACT (not to say it doesn’t happen, I’ve just never seen it).

For what it’s worth, I don’t agree with the placement of the P2P camera on Hindmarsh, as I don’t see that as a particularly dangerous section of road – although before the camera, I know that the majority would usually travel between 90-100 the entire stretch (up and down).

If it’s that hard to maintain speed (again +/- 3kph) by feel, then perhaps think about shifting to a lower gear and maintain speed by sound. For school zones, I know that when I’m in 2nd, 3000rpm is almost spot on 40kph. If people got to know their cars, they wouldn’t need to constantly check the speedo, thus (as you say) endangering everyone around them.

Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy,

You’re completely missing my point. I agree with everything you are saying.

The issue is that the way you and I drive and the attitude that you and I have, puts us in the minority.

If a P2P Camera was put in a school zone the majority of Canberra drivers will NOT allow a margin for speed creep regardless of what advice YOU or anyone else gives them. They WILL sit right on 40kmh and they WILL pay more attention to their speedo than their surroundings outside the car. The vast majority of Canberra drivers are just too impatient and ignorant to sit at a speed 12.5% lower than the posted limit. I understand your advice but what I’m saying is that very few drivers will adopt it. THAT is what would make P2P cameras dangerous in school zones.

Jungle Jim3:38 pm 25 Jun 12

Very Busy said :

Jungle Jim said :

Very Busy said :

Jungle Jim said :

I reckon they should have point to point speed camera at every school zone.

Yes, because the safest outcome would be to encourage motorists to be continually focused on looking down to ensure that the speedometer needle doesn’t inadvertently creep up to 42kph rather than scanning their surroundings and being prepared for a child running or riding onto the roadway.

How about just sticking to something closer to 35 and maintaining that speed (+/- 3kph) through feel? It’s not that hard.

Haha, that’s just like saying how about everyone just obey the road rules. It’s not that hard.

Jim, it’s not my ability to safely keep within the speed limit that worries me, it’s the ability of the majority of the general ACT population.

Obeying the rules has nothing to do with skill – it’s a choice people make. If someone seriously can’t maintain a fairly constant speed without having their eyes pretty much glued to the speedo, then they shouldn’t be driving. Plain and simple.

To me, it’s one thing to consciously travel at 120+ on the parkway and another altogether to creep up to 42 in a school zone, but the latter can be managed by aiming for a lower speed to counter the creep. I HATE seeing people breeze through school zones at 60+ and I’ve never once seen anyone booked for it in the ACT (not to say it doesn’t happen, I’ve just never seen it).

For what it’s worth, I don’t agree with the placement of the P2P camera on Hindmarsh, as I don’t see that as a particularly dangerous section of road – although before the camera, I know that the majority would usually travel between 90-100 the entire stretch (up and down).

If it’s that hard to maintain speed (again +/- 3kph) by feel, then perhaps think about shifting to a lower gear and maintain speed by sound. For school zones, I know that when I’m in 2nd, 3000rpm is almost spot on 40kph. If people got to know their cars, they wouldn’t need to constantly check the speedo, thus (as you say) endangering everyone around them.

chewy1411:35 am 25 Jun 12

gasman said :

There are lies, there are damned lies and then there are statistics.

I just had to sit down and actually examine the data that Coe presents, as it boggled my mind that accidents would increase with the installation of speed cameras.

As a scientific study, this set of data would not get past the first step of peer review. It would be laughed out of the room.

Firstly, there is no control group. Every scientific study needs a valid control – something to compare data to. It is a longitudinal study – ie looking at trends over time. It does not, and cannot compare the rates of accidents with and without cameras at the same time and under the same road conditions. It is entirely possible (and quite likely) that without the speed cameras, the accident rate would have increased even further.

Secondly, there are so may possible confounders. Most importantly, the amount of traffic on those roads has not been discussed. As traffic rises, accidents rise much more than proportionally. Congestion creates a higher incidence of accidents. The absolute amount of accidents does not mean much – the accident rate per car or per car.km travelled would be far more relevant.

The location of these accident have not been shown. Do they mean accidents along the entire stretch of the road (most of which is not enforced by speed cameras), or just that bit near the speed cameras?

Thirdly, the word “accident” has not been defined. Is it possible that there has been a rise in minor collisions (usually not speed-related) but fatal or injury-causing accidents (usually speed related) have decreased?

This set of data is absolutely useless and it is not valid to draw any meaningful conclusions from it. It is shameful that a politician is doing so to score points.

I think bad science is par for the course when politicians talk about speed cameras.

Its similar to the way the government used accident rates on the whole of Hindmarsh drive to justify the P2P cameras, completely ignoring the fact that most of the accidents occured at intersections that were never going to be included in the P2P stretch of road.

Mysteryman11:20 am 25 Jun 12

gasman said :

There are lies, there are damned lies and then there are statistics.

I just had to sit down and actually examine the data that Coe presents, as it boggled my mind that accidents would increase with the installation of speed cameras.

As a scientific study, this set of data would not get past the first step of peer review. It would be laughed out of the room.

Firstly, there is no control group. Every scientific study needs a valid control – something to compare data to. It is a longitudinal study – ie looking at trends over time. It does not, and cannot compare the rates of accidents with and without cameras at the same time and under the same road conditions. It is entirely possible (and quite likely) that without the speed cameras, the accident rate would have increased even further.

Secondly, there are so may possible confounders. Most importantly, the amount of traffic on those roads has not been discussed. As traffic rises, accidents rise much more than proportionally. Congestion creates a higher incidence of accidents. The absolute amount of accidents does not mean much – the accident rate per car or per car.km travelled would be far more relevant.

The location of these accident have not been shown. Do they mean accidents along the entire stretch of the road (most of which is not enforced by speed cameras), or just that bit near the speed cameras?

Thirdly, the word “accident” has not been defined. Is it possible that there has been a rise in minor collisions (usually not speed-related) but fatal or injury-causing accidents (usually speed related) have decreased?

This set of data is absolutely useless and it is not valid to draw any meaningful conclusions from it. It is shameful that a politician is doing so to score points.

I’m not denying the validity of the points you make, but I doubt the ACT government used proper research methods when they were scrounging for stats to justify installing the cameras in the first place.

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