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The end of the Mully Tree

By johnboy 9 September 2013 121

mully tree

An anonymous reader has sent this in:

ACT Government cuts down Mully memorial tree.

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The end of the Mully Tree
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Ben_Dover 4:40 pm 10 Feb 14

IrishPete said :

That’s great that you work with victims and offenders.

I don’t work with victims (currently.)

I did not claim “something hasn’t happened”. .

Hmmmmm….

IrishPete said :

I call bullshit on both

I can recall no such case in recent years. I can recall cases where babies and toddlers have been recovered from stolen cars. Nor can Google find any – search for “Sydney baby stolen car” without the quotes and you find two cases where the baby was recovered. If you can provide reliable information, I am happy to be corrected.

Calling something “bullshit” means what then? I need no help with my reading comprehension thanks.

IrishPete 12:08 pm 10 Feb 14

Ben_Dover said :

As I said elsewhere, I’ve worked with victims and offenders. Have you? When you have, your opinions may have some credibility. ,/i>

Yes, I work with offenders every day, so your point was what?

First you claim something hasn’t happened, so I proved it had, with evidence. Then you claim it happened too long ago to count. Now you’re claiming that people have to conform to your very narrow employment specifics in order to have a view.

You surely do like setting the rules to your own advantage don’t you? You don’t seem to have much faith in your own views in order to compete in open debate. Just goes to show how fragile and insubstantial your views are.

Ps. I had a great holiday in Castle Island and Dingle last year, lovely area.

That’s great that you work with victims and offenders. In that case, I can’t in all conscience let you away with inarticulate subjective abusive statements like “Now you go back to making excuses for criminals, you do make a living out of it, obviously.” You should be able to say something more substantial and meaningful.

I did not claim “something hasn’t happened”. Would you like some assistance with your reading? I wrote “I can recall no such case in recent years” in response to a claim that such a terrible thing had happened “a few years ago”. The incident happened in the year 2000. By no sensible definition “a few years ago”.

I’ll tell you sincerely why I won’t incorrectly say I was wrong, or apologise for something I didn’t do. Because there’ll be a time when someone throws it back at me and says “but you were wrong then and you admitted it”. There’s a time and place for apologising when you are not in the wrong, just to move on, but this is not that time and place.

IrishPete 11:59 am 10 Feb 14

Mysteryman said :

Just accept you’re wrong and move on. You’re starting to sound like a complete idiot. Even more than usual.

Can you point out where I was wrong? http://www.thefreedictionary.com/a+few

IrishPete 9:37 am 10 Feb 14

Mike Crowther said :

Irish Pete. I never claimed to have been a Police Officer. I wasn’t. For a person with a legally trained mind you do seem to jump to the first available conclusion.

But I do accept your apology for calling ‘bull-shit’ just because you hadn’t heard of something. I can’t remember what I actually Googled now, but it was something akin to child-dead-locked car-western Sydney. (I didn’t remember the little blokes name or I would have quoted it originally). which is hardly a search using intimate personal details.

If I had a legally trained mind, I wouldn’t have an enquiring mind…

I did in effect offer an immediately apology if I was wrong about the toddler manslaughter case – at the same time as calling it BS I also said “If you can provide reliable information, I am happy to be corrected. “. Thank you for correcting me. Now whether I was wrong to say there has been none in the last few years, as you claimed, or whether I was right, hinges on the definition of “a few”. There’s probably no value in having that argument.

If you are not a former police officer, then this statement is extremely odd: “I have lost count of the number of people Ive had locked up for burglary, but I’ve retired and things have obviously changed in my absence.” Were you an unsuccessful defence lawyer? A successful public prosecutor? A magistrate or judge? A parent of a large number of delinquent children?

I am obviously overanalysing subtle wording, and I should have realised by now that not everyone writes with the same precision as I try to (but don’t always succeed in doing).

This thread has strayed a long way from its original focus. For those of you who think the worst of my opinions, can I just note that in the Mully incident, only one innocent person died, and that was a baby. That baby may not have had great prospects in life anyway, but he deserved a better chance and longer life than he was given.

None of the three adults who were there should have been at that place, at that time. One of them is more (ir)responsible than the others, but if you live life a certain way you take risks and can’t complain too much if one day it all goes horribly wrong.

Of course all the poor people who witnessed the crash, and tended to the dying, and cleaned up afterwards, they were innocents too.

Even so, there are other far clearer incidents to use in the “police chase good/bad” debate.

IP

Ben_Dover 9:06 am 10 Feb 14

As I said elsewhere, I’ve worked with victims and offenders. Have you? When you have, your opinions may have some credibility. ,/i>

Yes, I work with offenders every day, so your point was what?

First you claim something hasn’t happened, so I proved it had, with evidence. Then you claim it happened too long ago to count. Now you’re claiming that people have to conform to your very narrow employment specifics in order to have a view.

You surely do like setting the rules to your own advantage don’t you? You don’t seem to have much faith in your own views in order to compete in open debate. Just goes to show how fragile and insubstantial your views are.

Ps. I had a great holiday in Castle Island and Dingle last year, lovely area.

Mysteryman 7:32 am 10 Feb 14

IrishPete said :

Ben_Dover said :

Don’t worry, be happy…

Leo Nguyen, aged two years 10 months, died of heat exhaustion after his mother’s BMW was stolen from outside a noodle shop in Cabramatta in December 2000. His mother had left the keys in the ignition and the airconditioning on, but when the car was found some two hours and 20 minutes later, the doors and windows were closed and the temperature was about 50C. The toddler died shortly after in hospital.

Now you go back to making excuses for criminals, you do make a living out of it, obviously.

13 years ago is “a few”? I lived in WA in 2000. If Mike Crowther had said “13 years ago”, then I’d have known it was before my time in the Eastern States, and I would not have expected to know about it. But his fine objective policeman’s mind thinks “a few” means “thirteen”. I bet he didn’t get many convictions, with evidence like that.

As I said elsewhere, I’ve worked with victims and offenders. Have you? When you have, your opinions may have some credibility.

Next troll please. Bring ’em on. I hope the next one’s a bit tougher.

IP

Just accept you’re wrong and move on. You’re starting to sound like a complete idiot. Even more than usual.

Mike Crowther 11:11 pm 09 Feb 14

Ah! Just pulled it off my search history.. Toddler-dies-stolen-car. Hardly random.

Mike Crowther 11:08 pm 09 Feb 14

Irish Pete. I never claimed to have been a Police Officer. I wasn’t. For a person with a legally trained mind you do seem to jump to the first available conclusion.

But I do accept your apology for calling ‘bull-shit’ just because you hadn’t heard of something. I can’t remember what I actually Googled now, but it was something akin to child-dead-locked car-western Sydney. (I didn’t remember the little blokes name or I would have quoted it originally). which is hardly a search using intimate personal details.

IrishPete 8:40 pm 09 Feb 14

Ben_Dover said :

Don’t worry, be happy…

Leo Nguyen, aged two years 10 months, died of heat exhaustion after his mother’s BMW was stolen from outside a noodle shop in Cabramatta in December 2000. His mother had left the keys in the ignition and the airconditioning on, but when the car was found some two hours and 20 minutes later, the doors and windows were closed and the temperature was about 50C. The toddler died shortly after in hospital.

Now you go back to making excuses for criminals, you do make a living out of it, obviously.

13 years ago is “a few”? I lived in WA in 2000. If Mike Crowther had said “13 years ago”, then I’d have known it was before my time in the Eastern States, and I would not have expected to know about it. But his fine objective policeman’s mind thinks “a few” means “thirteen”. I bet he didn’t get many convictions, with evidence like that.

As I said elsewhere, I’ve worked with victims and offenders. Have you? When you have, your opinions may have some credibility.

Next troll please. Bring ’em on. I hope the next one’s a bit tougher.

IP

IrishPete 8:32 pm 09 Feb 14

Tooks said :

You didn’t know there was an offence called burglary in the ACT? Perhaps you should stop belittling others about not checking the facts, when you get something this basic incorrect yourself.

You are right about the night thing though. Burglary in the ACT can be committed at any time.

Since the Mully incident, there have been around 200 police pursuits in Canberra alone. Most are terminated by police. So while I understand certain people don’t think it’s worth the risk (pursuing car thieves), I’m happy with the pursuit guidelines and the way pursuits here are conducted. I can only assume that you don’t have children, given your response about not wanting police to chase a car with your child in it.

The coroner in the Clea Rose case (which wasn’t a pursuit anyway) had no issues with police pursuit guidelines and made no recommendations. Ditto with the Coroner in the Mully case.

I don’t live in the ACT, so I span two jurisdictions, one which calls it break and enter the other burglary. They mean the same thing. Police officers and lawyers NEED to know the exact terminology, the rest of us can speak in plain English. But yes, my bad, I have been caught out being human and making a mistake.

Mike Crowther seems to be getting confused between aggravated burglary, home invasions, and burglary.

I don’t have children, which is perhaps why I can be rational and objective. “Officer please drive at 100mph after that car with my baby in it” might feel like the right thing to do, but is inevitably going to put your child at risk. While looking for the case Mike Crowther described, in every case I found of a toddler or baby in a stolen car, the baby was returned safely without a car chase. Interestingly in the case he described, the baby was left in a car with the keys in it – if you do that, and your car gets stolen, the police won’t even want to treat it as theft. Nor does your insurer. In fact, in some States it is illegal to do so, though I don’t know if it is in NSW (or the ACT).

Police define “pursuit” very tightly. The important factor is whether the offending driver thinks they are being pursued. Just because the police switched off their lights and sirens a few seconds ago, doesn’t really cut it. Or haven’t got around to turning them on yet. I think Clea Rose’s parents have somewhat different opinions to the coroner, and you apparently. They did have a child. Even so, their opinions don’t seem to have any more weight in your eyes than my opinions.

IP

IrishPete 8:13 pm 09 Feb 14

Mike Crowther said :

Irish Pete. Here is a link to the story I quoted:

He was dead at the scene, but as ambos do not have the power to declare life extinct, was recoded as having died at Liverpool hospital.
I personally do not give a flying f*^k what ‘YOU can remember’. It took me less than 3 min to find a reference, and I was one of the officers detailed to take this piece of human garbage to court and listen to the evidence including an autopsy report. Try using the term ‘I cant find it’ rather than ‘I call bullshit’ you troll.

2. Definition of ‘night’… http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s4.html

3. Burglary http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinosrch.cgi?meta=/austlii&query=Burglary&method=auto&mask_world=:austlii:au&mask_path=+au/cases/nsw+au/legis/nsw+au/other/nswlrc

lists 496 references to the offence of Burglary.
HOWEVER… I concede that that offence has recently been replaced with that of Aggravated Break and Enter due to an upsurge in home invasions which weren’t properly addressed by the old section.

I have lost count of the number of people Ive had locked up for burglary, but I’ve retired and things have obviously changed in my absence.

I do not troll.

No link to the story was provided. It’s very easy to find a story when you know the details of the case, possibly even names. I have found the case for you http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/10/16/1034561211503.html You said “a few years ago” – it took place in late 2000, thirteen years ago. I lived in Perth at the time. It may have been reported there, I can’t recall, it is an extremely long time ago for someone not directly involved with the case to remember.

The section of the NSW Crime Act you linked to mentions a definition of night. It also defines aircraft. And banker What’s it got to do with burglary? I’ve already answered that. Nothing.

Aggravated break and enter is aggravated break and enter. If it is equivalent to a form of burglary, it is equivalent to aggravated burglary. Which is patently obvious, really – did you not notice the word aggravated?

If you really were a NSW police officer, as you imply, your knowledge of the law is very ropey.

IP

Tooks 2:33 pm 09 Feb 14

IrishPete said :

Mike Crowther said :

Well for me the answer is yes. (though its not a situation I’d wish on anybody.) A few years ago we had the situation of a putrid scrote steal a car in s-w Sydney whilst a toddler was strapped into the child seat ion the back. The thief calmly parked the car in a suburban street and abandoned it in the summer sun with the windows rolled up. Once upon a time a thief in this situation would have called the police and told them where the vehicle was. Those days seem to be over. Despite a full and ongoing search, the child was found dead still strapped in his seat several hours later. So, if it was my child, on balance, I’d want the police to try and run the offender to ground.

O, and Pete: Burglary involves breaking into a dwelling at ‘night’. (‘Night’ is defined in the NSW Crimes Act as the hours between 9pm and 6 am). I haven’t bothered to learn what it is in the ACT because let’s face it, with the judiciary we’ve got here, there may as well not be a Crimes Act. ‘Breaking’ has nothing to do with force. If I open your front door without permission I have broken the seal between the door and the dwelling. Rather than get your legal definitions from Wikipedia, you might want to try http://www.austlii.edu.au/ more local and up to date.

I call bullshit on both.

I can recall no such case in recent years. I can recall cases where babies and toddlers have been recovered from stolen cars. Nor can Google find any – search for “Sydney baby stolen car” without the quotes and you find two cases where the baby was recovered. If you can provide reliable information, I am happy to be corrected.

As for burglary being at night, bullshit too. There is no requirement for burglary to be at night, except in your dreams. In fact the term burglary doesn’t exist in the NSW Crimes Act. Nor do I think it exists in the ACT. Break and Enter is the more accurate legal term. Night-time never enters the equation. But Burglary is used in other jurisdictions, and there’s a fairly common understanding of what it means. Add the word “aggravated” and it becomes fuzzier, as different jurisdictions have different definitions of aggravated.

The word Robbery, in contrast, is commonly misunderstood, with it meaning theft or burglary in common parlance, quite different from its legal meaning which has to involve violence or the threat of violence.

I don’t need to check Wikipedia or AUSTLII for this stuff (but I did just check AUSTLII for the NSW Crimes Act, just to be 100% certain). Perhaps you should. Try clicking on the link you provided and go from there.

IP

You didn’t know there was an offence called burglary in the ACT? Perhaps you should stop belittling others about not checking the facts, when you get something this basic incorrect yourself.

You are right about the night thing though. Burglary in the ACT can be committed at any time.

Since the Mully incident, there have been around 200 police pursuits in Canberra alone. Most are terminated by police. So while I understand certain people don’t think it’s worth the risk (pursuing car thieves), I’m happy with the pursuit guidelines and the way pursuits here are conducted. I can only assume that you don’t have children, given your response about not wanting police to chase a car with your child in it.

The coroner in the Clea Rose case (which wasn’t a pursuit anyway) had no issues with police pursuit guidelines and made no recommendations. Ditto with the Coroner in the Mully case.

Mike Crowther 12:37 pm 09 Feb 14

Irish Pete. Here is a link to the story I quoted: He was dead at the scene, but as ambos do not have the power to declare life extinct, was recoded as having died at Liverpool hospital.
I personally do not give a flying f*^k what ‘YOU can remember’. It took me less than 3 min to find a reference, and I was one of the officers detailed to take this piece of human garbage to court and listen to the evidence including an autopsy report. Try using the term ‘I cant find it’ rather than ‘I call bullshit’ you troll.

2. Definition of ‘night’… http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s4.html

3. Burglary http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinosrch.cgi?meta=/austlii&query=Burglary&method=auto&mask_world=:austlii:au&mask_path=+au/cases/nsw+au/legis/nsw+au/other/nswlrc lists 496 references to the offence of Burglary.
HOWEVER… I concede that that offence has recently been replaced with that of Aggravated Break and Enter due to an upsurge in home invasions which weren’t properly addressed by the old section. I have lost count of the number of people Ive had locked up for burglary, but I’ve retired and things have obviously changed in my absence.

Ben_Dover 12:14 pm 09 Feb 14

IrishPete said :

I call bullshit on both.

I can recall no such case in recent years. I can recall cases where babies and toddlers have been recovered from stolen cars. Nor can Google find any – search for “Sydney baby stolen car” without the quotes and you find two cases where the baby was recovered. If you can provide reliable information, I am happy to be corrected.

IP

Don’t worry, be happy…

Leo Nguyen, aged two years 10 months, died of heat exhaustion after his mother’s BMW was stolen from outside a noodle shop in Cabramatta in December 2000. His mother had left the keys in the ignition and the airconditioning on, but when the car was found some two hours and 20 minutes later, the doors and windows were closed and the temperature was about 50C. The toddler died shortly after in hospital.

Now you go back to making excuses for criminals, you do make a living out of it, obviously.

IrishPete 11:30 am 09 Feb 14

Ado said: “ACT Criminal Code 2002, section 311”

Aarrggh, I am undone.

He did say his BS about NSW, so I double-checked it before going to print, but didn’t double check the ACT.

IP

Ado 10:40 am 09 Feb 14

IrishPete said :

In fact the term burglary doesn’t exist in the NSW Crimes Act. Nor do I think it exists in the ACT. Break and Enter is the more accurate legal term.

ACT Criminal Code 2002, section 311.

IrishPete 4:53 am 09 Feb 14

Knuckles said “I’ve worked at the scene of these accidents with both the victims and offenders and I can honestly say that Irish Pete, you’re a fuckwit with no idea what actually happens in the real world.”

I’ll ignore the infantile abuse, though it makes it hard to take you seriously..

I will take your word for it (despite the number of fantasists one finds on the RiotACT) that you have worked at the scene of car crashes (note I don’t call them accidents – they rarely are), and some of them were of stolen cars. But my comments are about car thefts and you have not worked at the scene of those with the victim and the offender, because that’s physically impossible. Read the posts and comment on the right issue, you’ll find it is good for your blood pressure.

Of course, I didn’t attend a MVA (and I don’t actually use that term because the A stands for accident which they rarely are) a few days ago with every airbag deployed and the back axle sitting on the other the road. Nor a rolled over ute a few weeks before. Neither vehicle was stolen. Both drivers were likely intoxicated. I must have dreamt those incidents. Because I don’t live in the real world. Only you do. Sarcasm ends.

IrishPete 4:37 am 09 Feb 14

“Car theft is serious because car theft is serious. “

You’re right, everything is serious. There are no gradations of seriousness. Now go back to listening to Alan Jones and giving yourself high blood pressure.

IP

IrishPete 4:31 am 09 Feb 14

Mike Crowther said :

Well for me the answer is yes. (though its not a situation I’d wish on anybody.) A few years ago we had the situation of a putrid scrote steal a car in s-w Sydney whilst a toddler was strapped into the child seat ion the back. The thief calmly parked the car in a suburban street and abandoned it in the summer sun with the windows rolled up. Once upon a time a thief in this situation would have called the police and told them where the vehicle was. Those days seem to be over. Despite a full and ongoing search, the child was found dead still strapped in his seat several hours later. So, if it was my child, on balance, I’d want the police to try and run the offender to ground.

O, and Pete: Burglary involves breaking into a dwelling at ‘night’. (‘Night’ is defined in the NSW Crimes Act as the hours between 9pm and 6 am). I haven’t bothered to learn what it is in the ACT because let’s face it, with the judiciary we’ve got here, there may as well not be a Crimes Act. ‘Breaking’ has nothing to do with force. If I open your front door without permission I have broken the seal between the door and the dwelling. Rather than get your legal definitions from Wikipedia, you might want to try http://www.austlii.edu.au/ more local and up to date.

I call bullshit on both.

I can recall no such case in recent years. I can recall cases where babies and toddlers have been recovered from stolen cars. Nor can Google find any – search for “Sydney baby stolen car” without the quotes and you find two cases where the baby was recovered. If you can provide reliable information, I am happy to be corrected.

As for burglary being at night, bullshit too. There is no requirement for burglary to be at night, except in your dreams. In fact the term burglary doesn’t exist in the NSW Crimes Act. Nor do I think it exists in the ACT. Break and Enter is the more accurate legal term. Night-time never enters the equation. But Burglary is used in other jurisdictions, and there’s a fairly common understanding of what it means. Add the word “aggravated” and it becomes fuzzier, as different jurisdictions have different definitions of aggravated.

The word Robbery, in contrast, is commonly misunderstood, with it meaning theft or burglary in common parlance, quite different from its legal meaning which has to involve violence or the threat of violence.

I don’t need to check Wikipedia or AUSTLII for this stuff (but I did just check AUSTLII for the NSW Crimes Act, just to be 100% certain). Perhaps you should. Try clicking on the link you provided and go from there.

IP

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