TOOT! TOOT! Even the All Blacks are laughing at the tram

JC said :

Good to see some Abbott/Hockey/Hanson logic going on there.

It’s actually engineering logic.

JC said :

Secondly using your light rail figures you say it has a net positive benefit, based on economics alone. So it is viable after all hey? Not a great return, but still positive and viable using your figures.

Yeap, it’s viable so long as everything goes exactly to plan. The slightest of headwinds will make that NPV negative. Seriously, would you risk over $600 million to be $10 million better off?

JC said :

Now of course none of the figures take into account the social and environmental benefits of both projects

Err, yes they do. Almost all of the benefits that are valued in these projects are social or environmental (they are things like: reduced travel times, air pollution, noise pollution, traffic accidents, urban separation). The only benefits that aren’t are reduced vehicle operating costs and avoided road damage.

As I said if you can’t tell the difference between these two project then you really shouldn’t be making the call.

JC said :

davo101 said :

Good to see some Rattenbury logic going on there. Some basic facts:

Majura Parkway:
Cost to ACT $144 million
Net present value of project $480 million

Tram Plan:
Cost to ACT $615 million
Net present value of project $10 million

If you can’t see the difference between those two projects then you really should not be making infrastructure investment decisions.

Good to see some Abbott/Hockey/Hanson logic going on there.

Firstly whilst net cost to the ACT of Majura parkway is indeed $144m, total cost is $288m. Oops I under estimated it. That is the important figure. Of course no doubt that $288m will be high by the end of it all.

Secondly using your light rail figures you say it has a net positive benefit, based on economics alone. So it is viable after all hey? Not a great return, but still positive and viable using your figures.

Now of course none of the figures take into account the social and environmental benefits of both projects hence the Abbott/Hockey/Hanson angle. Looking after the environment and people (except the well to do, who I guess prefer roads to public transport) is secondary to them isn’t it?

The carbon cost involved with setting up a light rail is enormous. Just because there may be “zero emissions” from the tram doesn’t mean it is “clean and green”.
Looking after the environment my **se!

davo101 said :

Good to see some Rattenbury logic going on there. Some basic facts:

Majura Parkway:
Cost to ACT $144 million
Net present value of project $480 million

Tram Plan:
Cost to ACT $615 million
Net present value of project $10 million

If you can’t see the difference between those two projects then you really should not be making infrastructure investment decisions.

Good to see some Abbott/Hockey/Hanson logic going on there.

Firstly whilst net cost to the ACT of Majura parkway is indeed $144m, total cost is $288m. Oops I under estimated it. That is the important figure. Of course no doubt that $288m will be high by the end of it all.

Secondly using your light rail figures you say it has a net positive benefit, based on economics alone. So it is viable after all hey? Not a great return, but still positive and viable using your figures.

Now of course none of the figures take into account the social and environmental benefits of both projects hence the Abbott/Hockey/Hanson angle. Looking after the environment and people (except the well to do, who I guess prefer roads to public transport) is secondary to them isn’t it?

JC said :

rommeldog56 said :

I hear today that the ACT Libs have commissioned a report that shows that the Light Rail will cost about M$915, not the M$416 still regularly touted by the ACT Gov’t – a figure that is by Katy Gallaghers own admission, 3 odd years old now.

Whilst you have to take both figures with a grain of salt, the capital cost is astounding.

Given that the current ACT Gov’t is a minority Gov’t IMHO it would have severe difficulty claiming a “mandate” to implement Light Rail.

Firstly don’t think the government is claiming a mandate, however before the election both they and the Greens went to the electorate with a light rail plan. Labors was to investigate before next election, the Greens to start building.

On the cost the Government has made it clear that the costs will be higher due to inflation etc. Quite a common issue for long term projects.

As for the cost, yep $500m-$1b sounds a lot, but I am guessing you have no great issue with the $250m cost of the Majura Parkway, which will only be of benefit to those in Eastern Tuggeranong heading to the Fedral highway or Gungahlin and some Gungahlin residents.

The Majura Parkway balances out the GDE which only benefits those in Western Tuggeranong and some Gungahlin residents.
In today’s costs, the Majura Parkway was built 10 times as fast at a fraction of the cost of the GDE.
The estimated cost of the City to Gungahlin light rail has more than doubled in less that 2 years. It will be deemed unaffordable and abandoned before the 2016 election.

JC said :

As for the cost, yep $500m-$1b sounds a lot, but I am guessing you have no great issue with the $250m cost of the Majura Parkway, which will only be of benefit to those in Eastern Tuggeranong heading to the Federal highway or Gungahlin and some Gungahlin residents.

Good to see some Rattenbury logic going on there. Some basic facts:

Majura Parkway:
Cost to ACT $144 million
Net present value of project $480 million

Tram Plan:
Cost to ACT $615 million
Net present value of project $10 million

If you can’t see the difference between those two projects then you really should not be making infrastructure investment decisions.

rommeldog56 said :

I hear today that the ACT Libs have commissioned a report that shows that the Light Rail will cost about M$915, not the M$416 still regularly touted by the ACT Gov’t – a figure that is by Katy Gallaghers own admission, 3 odd years old now.

Whilst you have to take both figures with a grain of salt, the capital cost is astounding.

Given that the current ACT Gov’t is a minority Gov’t IMHO it would have severe difficulty claiming a “mandate” to implement Light Rail.

Firstly don’t think the government is claiming a mandate, however before the election both they and the Greens went to the electorate with a light rail plan. Labors was to investigate before next election, the Greens to start building.

On the cost the Government has made it clear that the costs will be higher due to inflation etc. Quite a common issue for long term projects.

As for the cost, yep $500m-$1b sounds a lot, but I am guessing you have no great issue with the $250m cost of the Majura Parkway, which will only be of benefit to those in Eastern Tuggeranong heading to the Fedral highway or Gungahlin and some Gungahlin residents.

damien haas said :

I am not sure what the relevance to the ACT is by linking to a NZ article about a fundamentally different transport project (I guess all light rail projects are the same right?), but i will just clarify that there will be no levy to build Capital Metro.

Read the ACT Light Rail article here: http://www.actlightrail.info/2014/06/treasurer-rules-out-levy-to-pay-for.html

Also, the costs to move infrastructure underneath Northbourne have been factored in already.

I hope the new owners of RiotACT do a bit of due diligence on the bona fides of the posters putting articles up. Some people with specific agendas were banned by previous operators of the site for good reason. There is nothing wrong with debate, but when one party resorts to lying, is it a debate?

Well will you look at the lengths one had to go to respond to this article!!!!!!!:

http://www.actlightrail.info/2014/06/a-piece-of-krupp-indeed-anti-light-rail.html

Ben_Dover said :

Has the “we don’t want the bloody thing” factor been “factored in” yet?

The fact that the only Greenie on the town council got in by the skin of his teeth should have been a bloody big hint that we do not.

Could this be the largest and costliest financial and political suicide note in Australian political history?

The proposed lakeside convention centre could edge it out in a photo finish.

Has the “we don’t want the bloody thing” factor been “factored in” yet?

The fact that the only Greenie on the town council got in by the skin of his teeth should have been a bloody big hint that we do not.

Could this be the largest and costliest financial and political suicide note in Australian political history?

Yesterday Canberra was reported as an investment market to be treated with caution: “Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth already have major surpluses of inner-city apartments, and Sydney, Canberra and Darwin are heading in that direction.” Source: http://www.news.com.au/finance/real-estate/where-should-you-avoid-investing-in-property/story-fncq3era-1226950583016

Given the local apartment market is already seen as reaching saturation point. plans to turn over large areas of Northbourne Ave and Flemington Road (including all of the area currently occupied by the Thoroughbred park horse racing track) into high density housing to service the line just magnifies the madness of this glorified Green Tram scheme.