Who the hell made Virginia Hausegger god?

looking on the link to the blog, there are several comments about virginia’s calls to ban the burqa. one of the comments makes a lot of sense – I was aghast to find that I actually agreed with passy – his comments are on the same lines of my thoughts on the matter:

“Haussegger has joined Sarkozy in his racist and Islamophobic attempts to divert attention away from the Great Recession as some sections of the French working class show through general strikes their real opposition to the President’s anti-worker and anti-women policies.

To talk, as Haussegger does, about being unAustralian – whatever that is other than a set of ruling class concoctions – is to adopt the language of racism, exclusion and cultural imperialism.

What next? A House Committee for unAustralian Activities?

And who makes a judgment as to what disempowers women? If burqas, why not bikinis?

I might for example think that beautified female TV news presenters are a more subtle and nuanced form of women’s oppression than burqas under capitalism. Should they too be banned?”

well put passy.

To paraphrase Facebook: ‘Against the burqa? Then don’t get one and shut the f**k up’.

Ms Thumper looks vagely Berber, especially with henna on her hands. The Marrakesh street kids were terrified of her 😉

Seriously though, Virginia has a point, however, how can we be so arrogant as to legislate against another people’s religious beliefs, no matter how abhorrent it may seem to us. That’s apart from the frightening thought of governments legislating against clothing.

I’d rather see a social revolution through education, opportunity and self belief.

Bypassing your comments about Ms Thumper, I’d agree that Virginia makes an perfectly reasonable argument, but that social education and integration over time may be better than outright legislation. I’d make a few short points in addition:

Multiculturalism will invariably lead to conflicting values, and to legislate against religious (and cultural) beliefs may be necessary for the sake of consistency and to protect all citizens; female circumcision being a case in point. Moreover, you’d have a bi-polar legal systems rife with contradiction. Freedom is a subjective concept; taken to an extreme, freedom is anarchy and chaos which many people would not wish for.

The argument has been made that burqas are not explicitly required by the Qaran and are therefore better classified as cultural rather than religious.

If one was to believe that an female Australian citizen should, within reason, be free to dress how she wants, is a woman in a burqa genuinely demonstrating the freedom to dress how she wants? Personally I can’t determine that, and I don’t know how you would draw up legislation to resolve that question.

Where does a childless, Western-born, scarily-dogmatic post-feminist, domestic media professional find sufficient common ground with a burqa-wearing Muslim mother-of-four (of unknown racial origin, she was admittedly covered) that she has only seen passingly for a few minutes in a public place (and yet seen fit to pass judgment on her, her husband, and her culture) that she can claim she knows whats best for the Muslim Woman, while assuming that the reasonings behind this specific Muslim woman wearing the burqa are identical to the reasonings behind she met in Afghanistan, without ever even approaching her or going through ‘acceptable channels’ to hear another side of the story?

PS:
“I saw a visibly minority woman the other day while I was out shopping, her appearance offended me because I associate it with something that happened somewhere else long ago. Members of this cultural group did something bad once, so therefore all of them must suffer for that sin.
People far away in Europe are doing things which further isolate this minority, so there must be good reasons behind it. This much is self-apparent, since as every ‘good mainstream individual’ knows, it not like anybody in Europe isolated a minority for nationalistic political purposes before.
Even if such a movement was starting to build or gain acceptance over in Europe, (and I’m not saying it is, because comparisons between Things That Happened Then and Things That Happen Now would of course be invalid) we’d never be so blind as to let it actually happen, us message-passing intellectuals are too smart for that…”

When I heard VG speaking on 666 the other morning, I just had to laugh out loud. In my first work experience job at the tender age of 14 or 15 in Brisbane waaaay back in the bad ol’ days, I worked in an office of Draughtsmen. And they were all men too. Lines and lines of men scribbling drawings onto paper. My job, among other things, was to push the tea cart around and remember which bloke liked which particular biscuit (Monte carlos for the boss, kingston for the 2IC etc). My dress code then was strictly enforced. A long, pleated, full length skirt from my waist to my ankles and a long sleeved shirt buttoned up – lest I engender feelings in the gentlemen that would distract them from their work. I’m sure if they could have asked me to wear a bag over my head with slits for eyes, they would have too. The receptionist on the otherhand, wore tight mini skirt, pancake make up, and best of all, super long, sharp fingers nails painted the brightest of red. Looking back, I wonder now about the difference. I wasn’t THAT bad looking – no-one is at 15. But back to VH – get off your high horse. Leave our sister Muslims alone. Bad enough that they are discriminated against for being immigrants, women, and often with English as a second language, but now to also have the clothes they wear the target for female Muslim bashers is too much. What next? Will we start tearing wigs off religious Jewish women? Stripping Nuns down to their undies? No-one ever says that men have to dress certain ways to be accepted. Jeez…

Can I just use this thread to say that Virginia’s “silver-spoon” delivery of the news – makes me not watch the news – ABC anyway. Smug delivery – head-mistress look not working luv!

She’s been doing a course on Social Media – me thinks.

So because we have other bad laws you want more Sepi???

We legislate against plural marriage, a religious belief of the mormons.

If I were convinced that burka wearers were empowered women, wearing it of their own volition, then fine. But I am not comfortable with young women being forced in hiding under the burqa by the men in their lives.

How can you engender self-belief in someone that noone can talk to except their husband?

Pandy said :

I disagree with the view that the wearing of the costume is
their right. No it is not THEIR right. The dress IS a sign of oppression
in some Muslim societies. It says that the beauty of a woman is only for a
husband to see and if you do not agree we will beat you or worse: think Saudis To live in fear of being beaten by not wearing the costume, is not form of society that
Australians should encourage. Feminism came from positive discrimination.
Religious and cultural freedom can come from banning obvious odious symbols of
oppression.

yes it IS their right , i cant speak on behalf of Arab or Asian Muslims but as a Turk my family roots are Jewish and Muslim and i bloody well can , the amount of ignorance i have read here is astounding , the main concern for me here on this forum is that of female circumcision, no where in the Koran is this condoned , this tradition is one that is African and also prevalent in some parts of Asia , do this to a female child in Turkey and see how many years you live in prison, if a women decided to wear a bur’qa let her , it is her choice , my sister decided to cover her hair,( we call it e?arp) thats totally her choice , my other sister dress’ like a madonna video clip , thats also her choice , the one good thing about Australia is that it is supposed to be multi cultural , but i tend to see less tolerance of this every day , and i was born here , what i do see is more and more ” Aussie pride ” love it or fuck off facebook pages and bumper stickers , lets address this issue rather than what a women chooses to or no to wear

BTW in the old testament ( Torah ) Christian Muslim and Jewish women covered their hair as a sign of faith
devout Jewish women wear scarves at the synagogue , some wear wigs to cover their hair instead , i still wear my yarmulke, maybe my wearing it offends white supremist nationalists , shall i take it off too ????

To each his own, as long as it doesn’t interfere with my life!

I rang this morning when Virginia was on 666 mornings with Alex Sloan talking about all this. And there was a very nice muslim lady called Shakira Hussein as well on the show. But I had to hold on so long (ringing from my mobile too) before getting on air that by the time I did I messed it all up. I did not end up saying what I wanted to – and I’m afraid to a muslim I would have sounded like one of those ‘feminists’ as I absolutely totally agreed with Virginia. Yes, I am passionate on this issue and have always been. And I do understand what Virginia means when she says she would like to see the burqa banned. I think she felt confronted by the man and protective of the woman in Canberra Centre trailing behind with the kids. And wanted to do something about it. Innocently thinking that if she calls for a ban, eventually it will come to pass and muslim women who wear the burqa will slowly start to feel empowered as she herself does. (sisterhood feeling). I just wish it could be that easy.

The problem is that this whole ‘hijab’ thing has got terribly misinterpreted by muslim men and women alike, and therefore by everyone else. Muslims do not have to wear a ring to show they are engaged or married. Why then do they (or the women) have to cover themselves in that demeaning way to prove their closeness to God? I am a muslim woman, and I know my personal limits. I know myself, no one can tell me to wear a hijab if I don’t want to ( who in their RIGHT mind would want to wear something that makes them look at best like a ghost??) – and I do not wear the hijab. But by the same token, I do not wear clothes which make me conspicuous in other ways either. That is, I cover those parts of me which are generally accepted all over the world as being provocative. So, when Ita Buttrose says a woman should be able to open the door when she’s not wearing anything at all and if a man is at the door, he should not take that as an invitation – I find it hard to agree with her. Because what would you consider as an invitation? Does a woman have to say blatantly “come and take me” and only then a man can approach her? Well, women don’t say, they send feelers.

Anyway, I really feel that this is something that belonged to the past. At a time when Arab men were wild and hot blooded, and would not think twice about accosting a woman walking on the street who looked attractive (which Arab women are), this was a safety measure for the women. But it is ridiculous to carry it into the 21st century. And there are so many double standards too. I once saw a woman wearing a hijab and smoking, others eating at Macdonald’s (which is not halal).

I just think the ‘hijab’ is for both men and women. And it refers to one’s attitudes and behaviour, not just one’s garments. You respect others and yourself. And some men, among them many muslim men, need to be educated about how to treat women, particularly their wives. Instead of walking ahead while she trails behind like a 16th century slave girl while you walk ahead looking hungrily at white women – slow down, walk with your wife, talk with her, laugh with her and and ask her what she would like you to buy for her from Canberra Centre.

The real problem with burqas? You can’t see their faces when they try to rip you off in the market.

At least you can see the scowl on them Berber ladies faces when you counter half price.

After reading this thread I’ve called up a few of my lady Arab friends –

“Listen up you ignorant bitches! Don’t you know you’re free to take that off? Some white kids from the internet just told me you don’t have to wear it. I know, I know. Your daughters are hopping around the French quarter of Marrakesh in mini skirts and your husbands spend all day at the cafes in fear of you, but, like, you’re being oppressed! Well, no…. I don’t think they’ve really integrated themselves in a Muslim society, or know anything about them brown folks. But, like, Afghanistan! Pakistan! Iran! What? They’re not Arabs? Whatever you ignorant hussey! I read Noam Chomskey in college. Don’t tell me about the world! Those people scare me, and for all I know they’re going to rob the Caltex in Kambah and have their genitals mutilated! Don’t worry, we’ll ‘free you’ with our Michael Jackson records, and stock exchange, and thoughts of climate change and human rights and blah blah blah blah blah…..”

Anyways, we sipped mint tea and laughed about white folks and their insecurities and smoked opium and hazed out in an Egyptian psychedelic guitar freakout and and and……

The end.

No father has to give away a woman nor do they need to take on the surname.

Next

So ban the Burka because it “is a tool of patriarchy used to subjugate women” and “wearing it signifies an acceptance of segregation of the sexes”?

Well, ok ban it, but only after they ban fathers giving away their daughters to the groom at Christian weddings, and ban the bride taking the groom’s surname. Because, after all, the only way to give people more freedom is for the Government to legislate away choice.

I disagree with the view that the wearing of the costume is
their right. No it is not THEIR right. The dress IS a sign of oppression
in some Muslim societies. It says that the beauty of a woman is only for a
husband to see and if you do not agree we will beat you or worse: think Saudis To live in fear of being beaten by not wearing the costume, is not form of society that
Australians should encourage. Feminism came from positive discrimination.
Religious and cultural freedom can come from banning obvious odious symbols of
oppression.

Who gives a shit?

Let people dress how they want to dress, eat how they want to eat, be gay or straight….whatever

If it doesn’t directly effect me then why should I care? If a women wants to wear a burqua and that makes her feel comfortable then so be it.

You know someone is incredibly insecure with themselves when they start worrying about other peoples personal choices.

Virginia needs to shut her trap.

Virginia has an opinion, and has expressed it in a public forum. Big deal, she’s allowed to.

I’m basically in agreement with ant at #125 on this. The burqua and niqab are symbolic of places where women are largely subjugated by men. They are also very clearly a statement of “I want to hang onto my values and traditions rather than adopt yours”. I find it mildly confronting to see them being worn around town, if only out of a sense of (a) that can’t be enjoyable to wear (b) who’d want to stick out like a dog’s balls like that, rather than blend in, (c) wondering what it says about power in the couple’s relationship.

Nevertheless, if thats what the woman chooses to wear, thats her right. I just have to suck it up and deal with my own thoughts on it.

ant said :

johnboy said :

sepi said :

Should we perhaps reconsider the ban on female circumcision, as a an infringement of cultural freedom?

You do your argument little credit with such an obscene canard. Adult fashion choice conflated with physical mutilation?

Actually, I think Sepi’s parallel is quite accurate. Burqa is not fashion, it is not even clothing. It is put on over the person who is wearing clothing. It’s a covering of the whole person, not just parts of the person.

And the way burqa and circumcision are imposed seem to me to be similar. Often the women in the society are complicit in their own subjigation, and that of the women who come after them. I just don’t buy that women who support either are making “free” choices. They’re doing it in an environment where to resist is dangerous, and to support it might buy them approval. The good old Stockholm Syndrome.

Actually ant, i think the “god wants me to have this done to me” excuse is a hell of a lot worse than feeling sympathy for, or having empathy with, your human oppressors.

johnboy said :

sepi said :

Should we perhaps reconsider the ban on female circumcision, as a an infringement of cultural freedom?

You do your argument little credit with such an obscene canard. Adult fashion choice conflated with physical mutilation?

Actually, I think Sepi’s parallel is quite accurate. Burqa is not fashion, it is not even clothing. It is put on over the person who is wearing clothing. It’s a covering of the whole person, not just parts of the person.

And the way burqa and circumcision are imposed seem to me to be similar. Often the women in the society are complicit in their own subjigation, and that of the women who come after them. I just don’t buy that women who support either are making “free” choices. They’re doing it in an environment where to resist is dangerous, and to support it might buy them approval. The good old Stockholm Syndrome.

The burqa, and the niquab, are symbols of places where women have very few rights and are dependant on men for their very lives. Hijab is different, I guess becasue it follows the “modest” dress we’re more used to, across many cultures. When I was young, elderly Italian women covered themselves in much the same way.

To see a burqa worn here hits me in much the same was as seeing a man striding along, with his slaves coffled behind him. It’s confronting. And as Hausegger says, it’s an aggressive rejection of us and our values and culture.

It’s noteable that people feel that we should be culturally sensitive toward people who appear in our land wearing this covering, yet these people certainly won’t extend us the same consideration if we tried to walk around in their land without adhering to their rules.

Burqa and niquab are not national dress, they’re a lot more than that.

One of the above posters is Ms Hausegger herself, methinks…

Yet legislation kept those girls at school in the first place.

sepi said :

Do nothing and hope the issue goes away on its own isn’t usually all that effective either.

Agreed Sepi, hence my comment to let those in our society be free to make their own choice and do whatever we can to give them the opportunity to make that choice. However, there are women in our society who wear their burqa’s proudly, and they should be allowed too if they want to. But then, how do you overcome thousands of years of tradition, culture etc. especially under oppressive religious regimes?

I have Iranian friends here in Canberra, one of whom was a swimming coach on the Iranian women’s swimming team. BTW: Ever see them at the olympics or anywhere else on the world stage? The answer is ‘no’ because they aren’t allowed to compete with any men around. One of them could be the best swimmer in the world but still never be seen by anybody other than other muslim women. The Olympic committee and the world remains silent on this issue, always has, always will. It’s very, very sad for the women involved as I understand they’d love to compete on the world stage. BTW: my friends is a swimming teacher but now teaching kids. Some kids here don’t know ‘how lucky they are.

I grew up in a post WWII neighbourhood in western Sydney. My folks like many others had migrated from Europe at the end of the second world war. My neighbourhood was a cultural melting pot with something like 44 different language groups at the local school. It was a fairly mad but wonderful time. The thing that still stands out from that time were the number of families that removed their daughters from school at the earliest legal opportunity, as they believed that education was wasted on girls. I still recall seeing these same girls stuck in their families garage sewing bags or other piece work as if that was to be their lot in life until they were married off. Their marages were arranged and they had no rights.

I really thought that I had seen the last of this sort of behviour where women were treated as if they were worthless. It was wrong then and it is just as wrong now. However it was community pressure that caused the past practices to stop and I believe that it is community pressure (especially from within the Islamic commuity) that will see lasting change occur rather than legislation.

vg said :

“Banning clothing is just the sort of thing the mullah’s do at their worst”

As opposed to their beheadings and stonings?

Beheadings and stonings are certainly bad but *usually* rare, as opposed to restrictions applied to every member of society.

But I agree it’s a long list of atrocities.

I would say that the thinking which allows the dictating of clothing leads directly to beheadings and stonings.

“Banning clothing is just the sort of thing the mullah’s do at their worst”

As opposed to their beheadings and stonings?

Do nothing and hope the issue goes away on its own isn’t usually all that effective either.

johnboy said :

sepi said :

So how do we create this wonderful society where women feel free to doff their burqas at will? Any ideas? Even one suggestion?

Arranged marriages may still happen, but if someone stood at the alter and said ‘i don’t want to do this, it is forced upon me’ then they wouldn’t have to, according to our law.

And we do have laws around clothing – public nudity is not allowed.

Making society more repressive is hardly the solution though is it?

Banning clothing is just the sort of thing the mullah’s do at their worst.

+1 How do you tell a women who is raised feeling safer in her own society wearing a burqa that she must now take it off? Conversely, it’s a male dominated society that places the blame for a man’s weaknesses on the woman (e.g. I raped you because you are so beautiful and you were flaunting your beauty by not wearing a burqa, you harlot”).

If you can solve this one, contact the UN and become an Envoy to the Middle East (or Middle Earth, as Bruno calls it). In the meantime, I’ll settle for letting those that live in our society have the democratic right to chose for themselves what they want to wear without being ordered around one way or the other.

BTW: why does Ms Hausegger not campaign for children’s right to go hat-less at school in summer? Is it because we’re protecting them by making them wear more and, therefore, is acceptable to our own cultural leanings?

As Canberra celebrities go, Virginia Hausegger is the real deal. Educated, urbane, published, opinionated and interesting. We’re pleased she’s one of us.

That said, Virginia is presumably a public servant. Lesser public servants are prevented by Public Service laws from offering their views to the punters, however Virginia seems to have obtained carte blanche. Some public servants are more equal than others.

The problem with motorcycle helmets is as much their use as body armour than face covering.

A hoody, scarf and big sunnies do more to hide your identity.

We can tag all motorbike wearing people as ‘potential robbers’ and force them to remove their helmets before entering a bank or similar, so I wonder if people would be forced to remove the all covering headsack to get similar services.

No problem at all with headscarves, robes, turbans or whatever, but the face hiding veil is something I consider on a par with people who wear dark glasses indoors – bloody rude, it’s as if you have something to hide.

Aus culture tends to interpret people who hide their eyes (vital part of non-verbal communication) as being shifty and untrustworthy.

Totally agree with you Sepi

On the subject of genital mutilation, I think it would be quite hypocritical to ban burqas while we still legally permit parents to cut the skin off their son’s penises.

sepi said :

So how do we create this wonderful society where women feel free to doff their burqas at will? Any ideas? Even one suggestion?

Arranged marriages may still happen, but if someone stood at the alter and said ‘i don’t want to do this, it is forced upon me’ then they wouldn’t have to, according to our law.

And we do have laws around clothing – public nudity is not allowed.

The “do something … anything” maxim is rarely a good policy guide.

sepi said :

So how do we create this wonderful society where women feel free to doff their burqas at will? Any ideas? Even one suggestion?

Arranged marriages may still happen, but if someone stood at the alter and said ‘i don’t want to do this, it is forced upon me’ then they wouldn’t have to, according to our law.

And we do have laws around clothing – public nudity is not allowed.

Making society more repressive is hardly the solution though is it?

Banning clothing is just the sort of thing the mullah’s do at their worst.

When I feel like cross dressing I like to where a burqua. But I find I cop the same bigoted repose as dressing in full drag, at lest I don,t get outed and lose my job.

How about re-education prison for red-necks

So how do we create this wonderful society where women feel free to doff their burqas at will? Any ideas? Even one suggestion?

Arranged marriages may still happen, but if someone stood at the alter and said ‘i don’t want to do this, it is forced upon me’ then they wouldn’t have to, according to our law.

And we do have laws around clothing – public nudity is not allowed.

There’s a difference between police asking to see a person’s face for law enforcement purposes and the rest of us having a right to gawk.

Given a choice between being held until their identity can be verified, or taking off the veil for a second for a policeman… well that’s a choice they can make for themselves.

Hang on, maybe I need to wear a burqa while dropping a burnout in the V8, and when the cops pull me over refuse to ‘lift my lid’ on religious and cultural grounds. Then my fake ID will work!

Maybe the idea would be to wear a picture of a hot chick’s face stuck to the front of the burqa face area?

Just for giggles, a dude with a beard face would work too.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

I only believe in arranged marriage when both chicks are hot.

Oooh, arranged Lipstick Lesbian Marriages. How controversial. Particularly if they both turn up to Virginia Hausegger’s place for brunch wearing burqas.

I only believe in arranged marriage when both chicks are hot.

This hasn’t created any discussion…

Has anyone ever seen a burqa-clad lady riding in a bicycle lane? 😉

caf said :

We haven’t banned arranged marriages. I’ve known a few people who’ve had arranged marriages here.

Noone says ‘oh female circumcision – prefer they wouldn’t do it – we just need to adjust their attitudes somehow, no point banning it tho’.

There’s a clear difference here between children who cannot give informed consent, and adults who can.

There’s people who bully their partners into getting cosmetic surgery. I think that’s awful, but I don’t think we should ban boob jobs for adults who want it.

Fa Sho!

Sepi either they aren’t forced or a crime is being committed. Cultural pressure isn’t force.

A gay teen with bigoted parents isn’t being forced to either hide his gayness or have straight sex. He just has douche parents and has a cultural pressure. He has competing priorities.

A woman who will not be harmed but will be socially ostracised is not being forced to wear the burqa, she is just having a great deal of cultural pressure placed upon her. It sucks, I get it. We need to work to provide a society where she can easily escape that.

A woman who will be harmed if she doesn’t wear it is being forced, that’s already a crime. It sucks, I get it. We need to come up with a way to reach out to these people so they know that a, it’s not on and b, we can provide support and protection.

You want to ban the burqa, you are no different to the harmer except you hide behind the veil of state violence and pretend you aren’t responsible for the initiation of force. You are harming everyone that wants to wear the burqa and you are saying that something as mild as clothing choice is now the provision of the state. You are doing fundamental damage to the freedom of every single individual in this country.

Who is using force and who is being forced exactly?

it would be smarter to simply ban all deliberate mutilation. like the idiot parents who pierce the ears of baby girls.

We haven’t banned arranged marriages. I’ve known a few people who’ve had arranged marriages here.

Noone says ‘oh female circumcision – prefer they wouldn’t do it – we just need to adjust their attitudes somehow, no point banning it tho’.

There’s a clear difference here between children who cannot give informed consent, and adults who can.

There’s people who bully their partners into getting cosmetic surgery. I think that’s awful, but I don’t think we should ban boob jobs for adults who want it.

Who decides what is ‘right’? ………
quote]

Governments do Jim, “for the greater good”, “for the greater good”

that’s why we have laws already about what is acceptable in many areas of life.

I for one would be happy to see the burqa consigned to the dust bin of history in this country. Don’t need it here.

#79. JakeZ.

Soo if I hide my face you won’t talk to me?

Yes Jake, it’s likely. To avoid confusion, could you send me a photograph of yourself, so I’ll know whose face I can’t see.

Are we talking now? Or is using a forum different?

sepi said :

Just trying to make the point that because something is ‘culturally’ traditional, doesn’t make it right.

Who decides what is ‘right’?

You?

Personally I think burqas are stupid and demeaning. I also think that running around wearing nothing but a woven codpiece is remarkably dumb, and that putting rings around your neck to extend it, or wearing a lip-plate and any manner of other things are just plain dumb.

I’m not so arrogant as to think that I have a mandate to ban them though.

Just trying to make the point that because something is ‘culturally’ traditional, doesn’t make it right.

Also, a burqa is hardly ‘fashion’.

All these esoteric arguments about how banning the burqa is just as much of a lack of choice as someone being forced to wear it by a man – these are just pie in the sky arguments – they don’t address the real issue of what to do about women in our free country, who are forced to wear a burqa.

We have banned arranged marriages and female circumcision, I don’t really see why banning the burqa is suddenly such an infringement on our free country.

Noone says ‘oh female circumcision – prefer they wouldn’t do it – we just need to adjust their attitudes somehow, no point banning it tho’.

The fact is – there is no way to adjust attitudes like this. It is a nice idea that people could be somehow talked around, to permitting their women to show their faces in public, but in the real world it will never happen.

You do yourself a massive disservice with that comment, sepi.

Sepi, in my opinion, there is so many f*cked up things already rife in our culture that is seems hypocrital for us to sit up on our high horse judging other peoples (culturally different) outfits or banning them.

sepi said :

Should we perhaps reconsider the ban on female circumcision, as a an infringement of cultural freedom?

That’s a pretty disingenuous comparison. There’s a remarkably obvious difference between clothing and genital mutilation.

It’s also been noted that there are some women who make an informed individual decision to wear the burqa – I’ve not heard of anyone making an informed choice about female circumcision.

Just because you disagree with someone’s choice in dress doesn’t give you the right to compare it to this kind of savagery.

And, as has been pointed out, if someone is being forced to wear the burqa, banning it is hardly going to improve their lot – banning an item of clothing isn’t going to magically make religious fundamentalist nutsacks disappear in a puff of happy thoughts.

sepi said :

Should we perhaps reconsider the ban on female circumcision, as a an infringement of cultural freedom?

You do your argument little credit with such an obscene canard. Adult fashion choice conflated with physical mutilation?

sepi said :

Should we perhaps reconsider the ban on female circumcision, as a an infringement of cultural freedom?

I absolutely believe that an adult female has the right to cut her clitoris off or pay for another to do it for her.

In terms of informed consent, I don’t think wearing the burqa and having your clitoris removed is the same thing for a child.

Should we perhaps reconsider the ban on female circumcision, as a an infringement of cultural freedom?

And so, try as I might, I will always find it difficult to accept people in society who may walk around in clothing that completely conceals their identity or self from me

I think “self” is stretching things a bit far. Just because you can see my face, doesn’t mean you know *anything* about me.

Virginia’s comments don’t surprise me, coming from her.

I have travelled in northern Pakistan and there were times I chose to have my entire face concealed with a scarf I could see through. Even social issues aside, it came in handy in the upper Indus valley where there is a sand storm most afternoons.

I support any person’s right to choose to wear whatever they like.

I have often wondered whether there might be value in having a day when non-Muslim women could choose to wear Hijab/Niqab/Burqua to show their support for women’s right to wear them??

When I was at primary school, the teachers at our local catholic school were nuns who still wore long black habits with head covering (thought not a wimple IIRC). Nobody thought twice about condoning that.

Actually, now that I think of it, there is more than one way to opress women – and if anybody imagines the non-Christian religions have some kind of monopoly on that they would be pretty badly wrong…

johnboy said :

That’s an astonishingly intolerant view ant.

Coming from different cultures means they feel differently to many issues than you do.

There seems to be a lot of people whose arguments are premised on the idea that other cultures are just … you know … wrong.

why is the alternateive to the burqa a “g-string and a miniskirt” or dressing “like a tramp”

Its not.
It can be very liberating being in a situation where you don’t have to weat certain clothes. For example when I stay at yoga ashrams you generally wear fisherman pants and loose fitting clothes/sarongs/blankets wrapped around you and your features/curves/breasts etc are not on show.
It makes me realise how much normal brain energy I must use worrying/thinking about dress/appearance.

That said, upon return I always love to dress up in clothes that are “feminine”, like dresses.

However, I have been brought up in a society that puts a lot of my value on my appearance..

sepi said :

So if the men in these women’s lives are not letting them wear what they want, but forcing them into the burqa, then perhaps we should ban the burqa, so the women can wear what they want?

i doubt it will help much. the men will just find something else for them to wear. do these women even want to change? some probably do but many could be quite happy. don’t judge them by your standards.

That’s an astonishingly intolerant view ant.

Coming from different cultures means they feel differently to many issues than you do.

sepi said :

So if the men in these women’s lives are not letting them wear what they want, but forcing them into the burqa, then perhaps we should ban the burqa, so the women can wear what they want?

1, Initiating force to prevent people from wearing something because some people have cultural pressures placed upon them does not seem like an increase in freedom to me.
2, Pretty sure the men aren’t going to go “well that was good while it lasted but oh well I suppose my wife can wear a g string and a miniskirt now if she wants to”.

Virginia made the point that, what she saw was a man walking along in a Canberra shopping centre, with some kids behind him, and behind the lot of them trudged a figure in a full burqua.

That figure does not bring to mind “liberation”. Plus, it is an “in your face” symbol that is shocking to us here. I don’t think a headscarf is shocking, but this shapeless figure swathed in a curtain with a blank faceless front, that rouses a whole shoal of issues.

@Mrshmellowman:
That was was part of the Google results that I couldn’t get rid of.
I’m no Muslim, but I don’t think thats even slightly compliant with awrah.

Anyway, its apparently disputed as to wether or not the whole burqa\niqab\hijab issue is mandatory or just divine ‘bonus points’.
(Visit one of the mosques around town on one of their community days, talk to the mam, see what he\his congregation have to say. It would have been nice if Virginia had done this and at least pretended to be balanced)

Peewee Slasher said :

As I walk through a shopping centre, it is, on average, unlikely that I will not engage in a conversation with a stranger, but not inevitable. I would however, never strike up a conversation with a woman wearing a burqa, primarily because I could not see her face. I might also encounter a language barrier, offend her family or her. I expect the wearer might also refrain from engaging in a conversation with me, a complete stranger. So, not talking to a stranger is reasonably normal for society.

Soo if I hide my face you won’t talk to me?

WHY THE HELL HAVE I NOT BEEN DOING THIS BEFORE? Finally something that will stop all the time wasting schmucks in life from getting in my way.

So if the men in these women’s lives are not letting them wear what they want, but forcing them into the burqa, then perhaps we should ban the burqa, so the women can wear what they want?

let women wear whatever they want. If they want to cover up fine, if they want to dress like tramps also fine.

Naomi Wolf wrote an article in the SMH last year about how liberating wearing the veil is for some Muslim women
Is Naomi a better judge than Virginia?
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/behind-the-veil-lives-a-thriving-muslim-sexuality/2008/08/29/1219516734637.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

What’s that got to do with anything?

Timberwolf65 said :

What gets me is these women can walk into a servo and pay for petrol with nothing but their eyes showing and it would be accepted but a motorcyclist has to remove his/her helmet upon entering. What is the difference, bit unfair don’t you think.

When was the last time someone in a burqa robbed a service station?

I don’t think this is what is meant by a Burqa is it?
http://goossun.com/b/uploaded_images/lil-kim-burqa-761895.jpg
You are more likely to freeze to death in a ‘berra winter

ant said :

The figure she was shocked by was wearing the covering that hides the eyes behind mesh. She made the points that it is dehumanising to the woman, and is confronting and offensive to many in our culture. How do you talk to someone in such a costume… what or who is in there?

What gets me is these women can walk into a servo and pay for petrol with nothing but their eyes showing and it would be accepted but a motorcyclist has to remove his/her helmet upon entering. What is the difference, bit unfair don’t you think.

I’ve seen burqas at the Belco Mall often enough that it doesn’t surprise me anymore.

Just to clarify:
Hijab
Niqab
Burqa

For Australia: Fairly common, less common, fairly uncommon.

But as much as Virginia is getting up in arms about it, a Muslim woman in a free country should be allowed to wear whichever veil she wants to, if she chooses to.

The hard part is in getting the situation to the point that she:
1) can recognise that it is her choice and not that of the men in her life,
2) is able to exercise that right without having legislated it away in order to achieve point 1

Nice post PeeWee!

Let’s be honest about this. I don’t think I’m being racist when I say I don’t like the burqa. Why? I have only seen a woman wearing a burqa on TV or in Sydney. There’s a number of clothing items I don’t particularly like to see; balaclavas, especially on men exiting my driveway as I arrive home; full face black helmeted men entering the bank whilst I’m in there; knightly armour used as hallstands in old mansions; Rasta style knitted thingy-ma-jigs worn by “cool” looking people.

My reaction to those clothing items says more about me than the alleged wearers.

My acquired emotional structure built up over many years through societal influence, including the direct influence of my family, has shaped me. Growing up in an Anglo-Saxon clan derivative, i.e., a British family that migrated to Australia in the 1960’s, I had expectations that were set by the times, so I was used to an Australia that had Aussie, Poms and Wogs. You’ll have to excuse the use of the word “Wog” in today’s context, but in my youth, that’s what we called them. Now, those wogs were easy to identify; they had dark complexions, spoke in another language and lived amongst vegetable gardens and orchards, unlike us Pommies and Aussies. I could tell, by looking at their facial expressions, if they were being rude to me (or so I thought at the time). I guess they could do much the same if they didn’t understand English. They could look at my facial expressions. Life was simple.

I think the most confronting experience about the burqa is that I can’t see the persons face. We make sub-conscious judgements about situations in our life based upon subtle cues that more often than not come from our faces. It is the most essential form of communication; body language. The burqa conceals all of those cues. I’m not saying that the burqa is meant to do so – I don’t know the cultural reasons for the apparel. In a society that relies upon those cues as part of communication, the burqa prevents the wearer from engaging in communication with most elements of that society. Conceptually, the wearer has an advantage over those looking on, because they can see our or my reaction. I think a basic human reaction in this situation is to not trust the person concealed by the garment. I concede however that education helps me to understand why the person wears the garment.

As I walk through a shopping centre, it is, on average, unlikely that I will not engage in a conversation with a stranger, but not inevitable. I would however, never strike up a conversation with a woman wearing a burqa, primarily because I could not see her face. I might also encounter a language barrier, offend her family or her. I expect the wearer might also refrain from engaging in a conversation with me, a complete stranger. So, not talking to a stranger is reasonably normal for society.

Many people now have screen doors installed at their front door entrance for security. I can see out, but the visitor can not see in or see me. I’ve intentionally installed the screen door for that purpose. I know it’s not the same as wearing a garment that forms part of a societal/cultural expectation but the screen door achieves a common aim; the concealment of a person. It’s a reasonable expectation by visitors, but it wasn’t always. When I first got it, my parents objected, telling me that they couldn’t see my face when they introduced themselves upon the doorstep. Their experience solicited the same emotional response that I’ve already commented on; for them, it wasn’t natural (their words).

And so, try as I might, I will always find it difficult to accept people in society who may walk around in clothing that completely conceals their identity or self from me. They have every right to do so as I and everyone else in our society has to dress as they see fit.

I have expressed my views openly and honestly in order to present a constructive dialogue to this discussion.

(So, tomorrow, I’m wearing my full Darth Vader outfit to work – don’t be offended).

Sepi, both options you have given are horrific and they are horrific because they both involve Government oppression and tyranny. There is a third and wondrous option and it is called individual liberty.

If you take my freedom, the practicalities become rather moot for me.

Adjusting attitudes is a great idea – how should we work towards getting these women’s families to allow them out of the house without their burkas on?

Benazir Butto has come out publically against the burka. It is not that strange of an idea to ban it. Sometimes making a law can adjust attitudes, after the first shock of implementation.

Banning the burka is only idealogically the same as mandating it. Not practically. For me, I’d rather live in a city that banned it, than one that forced me into it.

Just reading them all again, seeing all the opinions is wonderful.

But to quote myself:
“My nan when I was visiting her on a holiday once told me to take off my purposely slashed jeans when I was a teen and even my mum laughed at her.”

Nan won! I sulked!

caf said :

The fact that the right thing is hard is seldom a good reason to do the wrong thing.

But it is also _very_ possible to do the wrong thing for the right reasons.
Limiting religious practice for no other reason than idealistic symbolism?

But it won’t happen overnight.

Take a trip to Afghanistan and see how you go with adjusting attitudes.

The fact that the right thing is hard is seldom a good reason to do the wrong thing.

In addition 1) we’re talking about attitudes here, not in Afghanistan and 2) as cranky points out at #59 the relevant attitudes even there seem to have been quite pliant.

ant said :

I don’t think a burqua qualifies as “clothing”. A headscarf, yes. It covers the hair and neck, and is part of the outfit. But the full Afgan-style burqua is a covering put over the person and what they’re wearing. They are reduced to a shapeless figure that doesn’t even have eyes. I think it’s dehumanising and I agree with Hausegger that it’s an overt rejection of western attitudes and norms.

The attitudes that go with the burqua are also confronting for western people, the notion that a female is under the authority of the men in her family, that all other men have evil designs on her, that only the men who own her can see her face.

I do find it very offensive and even more so when they do it here.

It is the attitudes that need addressing; merely banning an item of clothing won’t help.

I remember some Italian friends of mine telling me that their parents were shocked when they returned to Italy, 15 years after moving to Australia, to find that society over there had moved on from the strict rules and customs that were prevalent when they themselves lived in Italy. They found that they were much stricter and ‘old fashioned’ in raising their own kids in Australia, than their Italian-dwelling family members. Their Australian-born kids kicked and screamed and fought against their parent’s rules and ‘old-fashioned’ Italian values (like arranged marriages!) and with each new generation, the antiquated rules were worn away.

My hope is that each successive generation of fundementalist Muslim girls (living in Australia, and influenced by Australia society) will push harder against the more ‘oppressive’ rules and customs of their religion/family and there will be an erosion over time – maybe one day resulting in Muslim girls enjoying the same rights and status as their brothers, fathers and sons.

The problem isn’t the burqa though, the problem is governments/societies telling people what they can and can’t wear.

In Afghanistan the problem is that people are being *forced* to wear the burqa. If people were *forced* not to wear it here would be to enter the same oppressive arrangement.

Thirty odd years ago, prior to the Russians attempting to rule Afghanistan, the streets of Kabul were more western than either Pakistan or India.

Miniskirts, makeup and fancy hair were the go.

I feel sad that these women will now be subjugated by their husbands/religion to wear the burka. I am with Virginia on this. Would we tolerate women being led around on a leash?

caf said :

ant: Maybe it’s the attitudes you should be confronting rather than the clothing (the outward expression of them) then.

I realise it’s harder to ban an attitude than an outfit, but if you succeed in changing the attitudes then the clothing will take care of itself.

Take a trip to Afghanistan and see how you go with adjusting attitudes.

Ant, aside from the bit about being very offensive I am +1 with you on this. At the end of the day the full burqa says nothing about religion and everything about keeping certain kinds of Muslim women in ‘their place’.

I’ve lived in a Muslim society that was a little more casual about their religious dress and more about the human issues of their religion (Northern Cyprus/Turkey). Women wore bikinis on beaches, had good jobs etc etc. They still identified as Muslims, not this fundamentalist bollocks that the Taliban and their ilk propagate.

That being said, it is just an opinion piece…….and it had its desired effect

#49 +1

An opinion in an opinion column. Good thing we were all sitting down at the time.

ant: Maybe it’s the attitudes you should be confronting rather than the clothing (the outward expression of them) then.

I realise it’s harder to ban an attitude than an outfit, but if you succeed in changing the attitudes then the clothing will take care of itself.

ant +1

PS: AFAIK weather or not the burqa\niqab is required when outside or amongst mixed social situations is one of those matters for interpretation, and up to cultural concepts of modesty.
The Muslim women I have worked with\went to Uni with have all had their own undertsanding of it, even those who lived in the same community as eachother.

Virginia’s reasoning of “This is what it meant in Afghanistan so this is what it means everywhere” seems a bit narrow-minded, last I’d heard Afghanistan wasn’t really known as being a leader in the Muslim world. (But I might be wrong)

“Stylish but nothing eye catching and cover up your shape of torso, but forearms and legs” vs “Nothing eye catching but face & hands are fine” vs “hands only viisble” vs “nothing that seems obviously feminine” seem to vary across the spectrum of Muslim traditions

I don’t think a burqua qualifies as “clothing”. A headscarf, yes. It covers the hair and neck, and is part of the outfit. But the full Afgan-style burqua is a covering put over the person and what they’re wearing. They are reduced to a shapeless figure that doesn’t even have eyes. I think it’s dehumanising and I agree with Hausegger that it’s an overt rejection of western attitudes and norms.

The attitudes that go with the burqua are also confronting for western people, the notion that a female is under the authority of the men in her family, that all other men have evil designs on her, that only the men who own her can see her face.

I do find it very offensive and even more so when they do it here.

Yes indeed, the Single Muslim ad is a corker… Browsing the photo galleries would be a hoot.

I’m not arguing with anyone’s right to have an opinion on wearing the burqa.

I do however reserve the right to:

a) have a contrary opinion which I too have a right to express.

b) particularly take up cudgels when the opinion professed is to tear down the freedoms of our society.

Aside from the freedom issue, which I regards as an absolute, there is another argument I’d like to throw out there.

Personally I get offended by people wearing ugh boots and tracksuits to go any further than getting the paper off the lawn.

I find it culturally confronting when I see them in the shopping centre.

Should we ban the tracksuit/ugh boot combination? Should we maybe ask them to leave the country if they can’t try harder to make an effort when they leave the house?

Or should we simply use their outward appearance as an expression of their identity and use that as a useful warning.

Women who choose to wear the burqa are coming from a culturally alien perspective to the feckless mainstream of western society currently dominant in Australia.

By wearing it they warn those of us from the mainstream that they are very different. While that may be “confronting” it can save a lot of time and embarrassment all round. Much like the ugh booted tracksuiters.

No one would ever make me wear anything uncomfortable in this country and I’m a woman, we do have enough choice, can even find comfy heels and a comfy bra etc easy enough. (to Deano)

My nan when I was visiting her on a holiday once told me to take off my purposely slashed jeans when I was a teen and even my mum laughed at her.

Depends on how you are raised and your view of women in society. I was raised to be myself, not a girl but a person who would accept the womanly world when I was ready, in totally my own style, to which I still struggle to I’m sure! But never held back for being a girl (except in school, which I fought beautifully in the latter years).

But if your country is forcing you to be someone you are not, it’s tyranny rule and if we banned it we would be no better for the ones who still choose to wear what they want (even if they are being forced to by convinced parents, they will just resent you going against their parents half the time) be it a burka, huge Nicole/Paris sunnies, Black-faced helmets, Dicky Koala suits, balaclavas, or a Nun’s habit (plenty of people suffered at the hands of those last three but we didn’t ban them for the power they gave people, thankfully the last is all but gone anyhow, not to mention they covered some or all of the face/features). I find it all a hard line to cross.

These women who may sometimes be oppressed and all, will reach out when they are ready to embrace Western womanhood and it’s lovely strangeness (or not). Force them any earlier and you may as well bare them naked.

sorry, forgot to add the 😉

and with a user name like Jim Jones, the irony seems wasted….

She has an opinion and she expressed it – no harm in that, when it’s legislated that you have to agree with her then we are in trouble. If women telling other women what to wear and what not to wear is of limited appeal then how the hell did Trinny and Susannah enjoy so much success?

“I abhor the burka, and the niqab. I hate what it does to women. I am appalled that women are separated from the world in this way. And I am furious that some women will continue to choose to wear it. But then, throughout history, feeble women who are afraid of modernity, have always been complicit in their own oppression.”

WTF???

So women who make life choices (possibly with the assistance of authority figures) based on principles not approved by Virginia are oppressed? Only those who bend to Virginia’s iron fist are enlightened, I suppose.

grump said :

cut the feel good hello birds hello trees crap. The burqa is a devisive instrument of mind and societal control. Ban it now while we still have time. You know it makes sense.

(with thanks to slamming sam kekovic)

And organised religion is also a “devisive [sic] instrument of mind and societal control”, presumably we should also ban all organised religion.

Actually, education could easily be categorised as an instrument of mental and social control, we should ban education too.

cut the feel good hello birds hello trees crap. The burqa is a devisive instrument of mind and societal control. Ban it now while we still have time. You know it makes sense.

(with thanks to slamming sam kekovic)

deezagood said :

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

On a more serious note, I suspect the angry lesbo feminists FC knows irritate her almost as much as bogans doing burnouts on public roads irritates me.

I know your tongue is firmly in cheek VY, but I do still feel compelled to point out that supporting equality for all (including women) does not make one an angry, hairy, man-hating lesbian. I consider myself a feminist (in that I support equality and choice for females) and I have many ‘feminist’ friends; our legs are predominantly hair-free (*except maybe in winter when nobody sees them anyway) and most of us are all happily hetero and faily non-angry types.

I also support equality for all. There are some people I have met, though, who think this means ‘women as supreme rulers above all else’.

The comment achieved it’s aim, methinks…

What’s the point of banning clothing that is almost exclusively only worn in Canberra by those with diplomatic immunity anyway.

As backward as we appear sometimes, this sort of thinking went out 10 years ago (thank god).

Can we also ban Southern Cross tattoos please?

the-riotact.com/?p=9191

Skidbladnir said :

Just as a social experiment, does any courageous woman (muslim, lesbian, hetero, I don’t care) want to:

a) See if Hush will let in a woman if she was wearing the burqa?
b) Observe and report the reaction of female patrons?

I can’t imagine they would kick her out.
I imagine the reaction from patrons would be a fair amount of stares. Which would be similar to the reaction you would get in many other clubs/bars.

What is the relevance of it being Hush bar?
Would another (maintream/hetro) club let someone in in a burqa? how would they be able to check her identification for proof of age?

What’s Hush?

All I can think of is the old Deep Purple song.

Just as a social experiment, does any courageous woman (muslim, lesbian, hetero, I don’t care) want to:

a) See if Hush will let in a woman if she was wearing the burqa?
b) Observe and report the reaction of female patrons?

considering that i know women who wear the naquib/burka, and others who don’t, whilst both groups interact and are muslims, they see it very differently. the women who don’t wear it do so to fit in, the ones that do are very proud of their faith and heritage.

The problem is that if we say that all women are being repressed by wearing this outfit, covered by a veil, we are taking their own personal beliefs and throwing them away. some women want and enjoy the anonymity of the veil. others don’t.

and as chrispy said, it would be very sensible clothing for white people in central australia.

arabic clothing like the veil and the male equivalent wasn’t born out of repression, rather, out of need to be able to travel in the desert and retain moisture, not to heat up under the blazing sun. many years ago, the only people considered repressed in those environments at the time, were the mad english, who dressed in suits.

fairly

My question is who will be responsible for regulating this Virginia Burqua Ban?
Are we expecting workplaces to ask staff to leave if they come to work in a head to foot covering?
Are we expecting the AFP to confiscate head coverings when the secuirty staff at the Canberra Centre call them because of a deliberate and bloodyminded burqua wearer walking in town with malice aforethought?
What will be the criminal charge – conspiracy to offend through the knowing use of a Burqua?

PS I love angry lesbo feminists – but only if they are both hot!!!

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

On a more serious note, I suspect the angry lesbo feminists FC knows irritate her almost as much as bogans doing burnouts on public roads irritates me.

I know your tongue is firmly in cheek VY, but I do still feel compelled to point out that supporting equality for all (including women) does not make one an angry, hairy, man-hating lesbian. I consider myself a feminist (in that I support equality and choice for females) and I have many ‘feminist’ friends; our legs are predominantly hair-free (*except maybe in winter when nobody sees them anyway) and most of us are all happily hetero and faily non-angry types.

My point was, you seemed to be making a big generalisation.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

On a more serious note, I suspect the angry lesbo feminists FC knows irritate her almost as much as bogans doing burnouts on public roads irritates me.

Well I don’t know how much bogans doing burn outs bothers you, but ‘angry lesbo feminists’ don’t really irritate me…
Well not nearly as much as the term “angry lesbo feminists” irritates me.

Well done to all on making this a damn interesting thread. Without expressing my lengthy views on this topic, this one caught my eye:

Deano said :

… At least women wear naquib/burka for religious reasons, we make our women wear uncomfortable clothes and shoes that become ‘unfashionable’ within 12 months for purely commercial reasons. I’m not sure who has the worst deal.

So what makes religion so much more important than the fat cash?

On a more serious note, I suspect the angry lesbo feminists FC knows irritate her almost as much as bogans doing burnouts on public roads irritates me.

FC said :

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

FC said :

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

Another example of stupid feminists working against genuine progress towards equality, acceptance and real choice.

Or one persons opinion. Don’t let you stop you jumping on the bandwagon though.

Seems fairly consistent with other feminists I know and/or have read/heard. “If you choose to behave in a traditional role you are hamstringing the cause of women everywhere”.

Seems that you may be oversimplifying things. Things are not that black and white and being a feminist, and knowing many other feminists, I doubt any of them would see anything as simply as you are putting it.
Oh, and most people I know that own v8s are bogan w-nkers – so I guess you must be one too? (it would seem fairly consistent, that’s all)

So I the feminists I know are whingeing, hairy-legged gorillas and the V8 owners you know are bogan wankers.

Seems fair to me!

Well said DLWM.

&

+1 #20

Deano said :

I find it ironic that in a supposed ‘free’ society there are calls to ban something because it is associated with a supposed ‘repressive’ society. Pot meet kettle.

+1

You know the burqa would be fairly sensible clothing for white people working outside in central australia.

Deano said :

DarkLadyWolfMother said :

She should clearly ban anyone (including women) from telling other women what they can, and cannot wear.

Notwithstanding my previous post, I’d support this if it included fashion magazines and beauty advertisements. At least women wear naquib/burka for religious reasons, we make our women wear uncomfortable clothes and shoes that become ‘unfashionable’ within 12 months for purely commercial reasons. I’m not sure who has the worst deal.

I’d agree 100% with you there! Then again, most of my girlfriends wear what they like. They only wear current fashion if they like it, and will keep wearing it for years to come. I suspect we’re not typical 🙂

As someone who appears to ‘confront and offend others’, I can only say that some people are far too easily ‘confronted’ or ‘offended’. That’s their own problem and doesn’t relate directly to whether someone else is oppressed or not, or whether they choose or are forced to wear certain clothes.

If there is oppression, let’s fight that rather than the symbols or tools of it. If you ban one thing, often another comes along to replace it because the underlying issues are still there.

DarkLadyWolfMother said :

She should clearly ban anyone (including women) from telling other women what they can, and cannot wear.

Notwithstanding my previous post, I’d support this if it included fashion magazines and beauty advertisements. At least women wear naquib/burka for religious reasons, we make our women wear uncomfortable clothes and shoes that become ‘unfashionable’ within 12 months for purely commercial reasons. I’m not sure who has the worst deal.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

FC said :

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

Another example of stupid feminists working against genuine progress towards equality, acceptance and real choice.

Or one persons opinion. Don’t let you stop you jumping on the bandwagon though.

Seems fairly consistent with other feminists I know and/or have read/heard. “If you choose to behave in a traditional role you are hamstringing the cause of women everywhere”.

It depends which wave of feminism you are discussing, as there are numerous different viewpoints and feminists themselves often disagree over particular philosophies. I think many post-modern feminists, in a backlash against their more radical predecessors, support the notion of ‘choice’, and in this case, being free to either wear the traditional garb or not. The problem is that many women living in our society do not necessarily have that choice to make, especially if the have very traditional Muslim parents or a very traditional Muslim husband. Banning any type of clothing is not the answer though.

Incidentally, the day it is banned is the day I shall don one. Virginia may have been to Afghanistan, however the fact that I cannot afford to travel outside of the country does not lessen my ability to rationalise public policy, philosophy, or to determine what type of society I wish to live in (the answer is a free society).

The burqa may well be a tool of oppression however it is far less damaging than Virginia’s view of the world and her fellow ilk who serve only to abrogate the natural right to individual freedom that we all possess.

…Time to pull up stumps fellow punks, our mohawks, leather jackets, and chains just don’t confront like the burqa does.

…wait a minute. Punks wearing burqas. Offensive to muslims and to everyone else. My god PUNK IS NOT DEAD!

Spectra, I’d argue that having been horrified by an authoritarian society the worst possible response is to make our own more authoritarian.

I would tend to agree with you. Like I said, I’m not trying to argue the case one way or the other – my default position tends to be very much against banning anything that doesn’t have a measurably and significantly negative impact coupled with an absence of any positive one. My point, however, was more that the tone of this post (and many of the initial comments) was very much attacking the writer for expressing an opinion rather than the opinion itself, which is not the way to go about having the discussion.

Fine, if you want to stop the ad-hom.

I don’t so much see it as a question of feminism though.
The situation in France that Virginia has been so forthright in supporting is less about supporting the rights of women and more about playing up to national identity politics, defining and redefining what it means to be French and what/who cannot become French.

Such debate is fine with me on its own, but framing it in terms of an already reactionary issue of a specific cultural group’s integration (ie: intensifying debate around an already debated minority, further maginalising an already marginalised group, and further dissolving the support the public might have been willing to provide said marginalised group by letting a bunch of post-feminist lefties protest about something when the people they are protesting for might not care quite so strongly about it), and instead of using the controversy to finding the greater societal balance between liberty and religion (all religions, not just Islam after all), that really gives me the shits.

If you want to drape the debate in the colours of a) gender rights, b) xenophobic isolation, and c) fashion…
Can a Muslim woman wear the Burqa if they assert that they do it just because they like it, just as an Anglo-Whitey woman would a g-string, or should we just tell them to leave because we don’t like their choice?

Or if its about national identity (ie: Do as Virginia’s headline suggests and “Ban [the] unAustralian burka”), should we just kick out anyone wearing religious headdress, and turn them back at the border?

I find it ironic that in a supposed ‘free’ society there are calls to ban something because it is associated with a supposed ‘repressive’ society. Pot meet kettle.

This is presumably inspired by the debate going on in France, which seems to be operating under the assumption that if a woman is being forced to wear the naquib/burka type arrangement against her will, that banning it will somehow free her to wear whatever she wants…. ignoring the other possible outcome which is that she ends up confined to her home unable to ever leave it because she can’t go out dressed appropriately.

Either way, I don’t want to live in a society which legislates at a govt level (beyond OH&S type reasons) what I or anyone else can’t wear in public. If the burka becomes illegal, are we going to also ban people going out in public in costumes (such as for example, a giant bunny suit) which completely obscures their features? It’s the same principle, you can’t see the face of who is in there….. if the concern is about being able to establish the identity of the person for official reasons, there surely there are culturally sensitive ways around the problem which don’t require the banning of items of clothing.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

FC said :

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

Another example of stupid feminists working against genuine progress towards equality, acceptance and real choice.

Or one persons opinion. Don’t let you stop you jumping on the bandwagon though.

Seems fairly consistent with other feminists I know and/or have read/heard. “If you choose to behave in a traditional role you are hamstringing the cause of women everywhere”.

Seems that you may be oversimplifying things. Things are not that black and white and being a feminist, and knowing many other feminists, I doubt any of them would see anything as simply as you are putting it.
Oh, and most people I know that own v8s are bogan w-nkers – so I guess you must be one too? (it would seem fairly consistent, that’s all)

For Christ’s sake it was an opinion piece. If you don’t like her opinion then write your own……or just choose to have your own one that differs.

Storm + teacup = OP

I only know one Muslim lady. She definately chooses to cover her hair and to derss modestly when in public. I have spoken to her about this and she feels that it is a very bold and liberating statement that she can make about her faith and who she is.

I’m with JB on the point of distinguishing our society by the ability to make choices. Sure in some parts of the world maybe women don’t have a choice about what they wear – but why on earth would we want to make our society more like that.

When Virginia says this:

Wearing the burka – or niqab -in Australia is an aggressive way of saying ‘I will not integrate into your society, and I care nothing for the cultural mores and social traditions of this country’. Instead, the woman wearing it is demonstrating that she would rather submit to gender apartheid, than embrace the social norms of this place. The burka is an arrogant display of disrespect to Australia and the Australian way of life.

…it may well be true, but “banning the burqua” in this context is treating the symptom, not the problem.

You can’t force people to free themselves. You can only give them the opportunity, it is up to them to take it.

(On a lighter note, Google Ads has selected dating agency “singlemuslim.com” for this thread!)

Virginia is allowed to have an opinion. Virginia is allowed to publically state that opinion. Virginia is allowed to try and convince others to agree with her opinion. Virginia is allowed to call for bans on things if she wants to….. because the last time I checked, we live in a free country. You are entitled to disagree with Virginia, but that doesn’t stop her from being allowed to express her own opinion. I think labling Virginia a ‘stupid feminist’ is really stupid too.

I also think the ‘single muslim.com’ advert on this page is amusing media placement.

FC said :

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

Another example of stupid feminists working against genuine progress towards equality, acceptance and real choice.

Or one persons opinion. Don’t let you stop you jumping on the bandwagon though.

Seems fairly consistent with other feminists I know and/or have read/heard. “If you choose to behave in a traditional role you are hamstringing the cause of women everywhere”.

Interesting posts Spectra and Ant.

Spectra, I’d argue that having been horrified by an authoritarian society the worst possible response is to make our own more authoritarian.

As for the poor petals “culturally confronted”? Well seriously, harden up.

Or even thank these people for reminding you that different people think and do different things and wouldn’t it be a miserable world where we all fell into the same drab conformity.

Can we ban Spectra?

Hausegger is an author of some note, she has published several sociologically-focussed books. She also happens to read the news on the ABC. I guess she’s entitled to write articles commenting on social issues.

Her point in the article under “discussion” (well, at some point we’ll discuss the article, rather than leaping up and down screeching and flinging poo), was the confronting nature of seeing a figure walking along (behind the husband and kids) in a full burqua, in the Canberra Centre.

The figure she was shocked by was wearing the covering that hides the eyes behind mesh. She made the points that it is dehumanising to the woman, and is confronting and offensive to many in our culture. How do you talk to someone in such a costume… what or who is in there?

I’ve felt the same reaction when seeing this. Hausegger also felt the husband’s expression showed animosity towards her… plainly she felt affronted at the whole interaction, brief as it was.

As for banning this clothing, I’m with Sarkozy in feeling it’s inappropriate to go that far, but we should at least be able to speak out about it.

It is culturally confronting.

In Virginia’s defence, she’s actually visited Afghanistan and seen first hand the kind of repression of females that goes on there. If it’s her opinion that the burqa is a key tool of that repression (which I’d imagine is the crux of her argument), well she’s probably in a better position to judge that than most of us. I really doubt that the issue for her was “women choosing to wear the burqa”, but then I haven’t seen the article.
I’m not saying she’s right (that’s a whole separate argument), I’m just suggesting that an ad hominem argument, as you so often preach against on this site, JB, should maybe not be the first line of attack here…

Nothing quite like having a media personality say “Use the power of law to compel these women to interpret their identity\traditions\culture\religion in a way I find acceptable! Expressing her identity\traditions\culture\religion through a non-mainstream clothing choice is offensive!” to show how open minded our feminists really are.

DarkLadyWolfMother said :

She should clearly ban anyone (including women) from telling other women what they can, and cannot wear.

I wish I could say “I thought we’d go past this.”.

Good point. people should be able to wear what they want.
Even if it was interlinked with problems of opression etc (not that I am saying it either is or isn’t) but banning the clothing wouldn’t be solving the problem anyway.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

Another example of stupid feminists working against genuine progress towards equality, acceptance and real choice.

Or one persons opinion. Don’t let you stop you jumping on the bandwagon though.

stuff, not staff…

Virginia likes to call for bans on stuff – burquas, summernats, drunk footballers – it’s all pretty amusing reading really.

She doesn’t seem to suppport much staff – must be a glass half empty person….

She should clearly ban anyone (including women) from telling other women what they can, and cannot wear.

I wish I could say “I thought we’d go past this.”.

Can we ban the name Virginia?
It always makes me cringe that name…

Actually, lets ban German sounding surnames too!

Another example of stupid feminists working against genuine progress towards equality, acceptance and real choice.